Destiny of those praying 5x towards the cube?
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I found this comment that i did for brother bmbmm before which in the same subject, please brother bmbmm, respnd to it with some elaboration, but please bear in mind, i'm only debating the meaning of the masjid, i'm not willing YET to get involved in the subject where masjid al haram is located, but I will get into it later after a do some Quran reading, i only use the Quran in my replys, no hearsay, no conjecture, no hadith, no self opinions
Peace bro bmbmm, I was reading your comment then just stopped here after dicovering a major flaw in that part
so you said "The root word ?Sahara? means ?To cast a spell or to bewitch?.", which I agree
then you said "When somebody is bewitched a prefix ?Ma? is appended to the root, which becomes the ground form of the verb ?Mas-hur?.", this is totally wrong
to express that somebody becomes the ground of any verb it must be on the following wazn "Maf'ool", in arabic it looks like this "", this will make the "Sahara" verb looks like this "" and pronounced as "Mas-hor?", as you can see I replaced the U with an O and this makes it pronounced properly
Now Masjid is NOT on the wazn "Maf'ool" it is on the wazn "Maf'al", which looks like this "", please go and ask all the arabic speakers in the world whom you know and trust, but possibly you won't because you think that the arabs manipulated the languaged hey lol
now if you can also manage to ask them how to derive a noun for a place from a root, they should tell you it must be on the wazn "Maf'al" "", EXACTLY AS THE WORD MASJID
you got it totally wrong bro
peace
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Salam arnoldyasin.. good post
Salam Ahmed,
Can you have your intelectual input rather than cutting and pasting from the Quran?
The thing is masjid here. Its not a building/structure its the state of submission e.g
"We have one clue in here, which is simply a warning to the believers ? and have not contact with them while you are in retreat in the Masajid; ?, i.e. not to contact their wives while they are Aakifon Fi Al Masajid, i.e. in retreat inside the Masajid, again it suggests that it is a place where the believers can retreat inside it"
The above is not refering to a structure it is in the state of submission (commitments!), also by focusing on the restriction in the submission!
If you do not want to Serve/Commit to God and rather to choose Worshiping/Praying go ahead as there is no compulsion in the Dinn. And please, please do not cut and past from the Quran, I want your intelectual input, as we are scientists.
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Salam Ahmed,
Salam bro
so you don't want me to go to sleep?
Can you have your intelectual input rather than cutting and pasting from the Quran?
no bro, i only talk by the Quran, and intellect has nothing to do with it here, i guess the stupid ones will be the ones who talk without the Quran or the ones who manipulate its crystal clear meaning
but that is what most of my debaters say because surely they can't repsond to the Quran verses
why not refuting the Quran verses uysing your intellect and show us?
The thing is masjid here. Its not a building/structure its the state of submission e.g
"We have one clue in here, which is simply a warning to the believers ? and have not contact with them while you are in retreat in the Masajid; ?, i.e. not to contact their wives while they are Aakifon Fi Al Masajid, i.e. in retreat inside the Masajid, again it suggests that it is a place where the believers can retreat inside it"
The above is not refering to a structure it is in the state of submission (commitments!), also by focusing on the restriction in the submission!
If you do not want to Serve/Commit to God and rather to choose Worshiping/Praying go ahead as there is no compulsion in the Dinn. And please, please do not cut and past from the Quran, I want your intelectual input, as we are scientists.
how about the other verses?
pick and choose what is easy to play with hey?
good night mate, i have nothing to say to you regarding this masjid subject, i have let the Quran speak and refuted you fair and square, youe weakness is obvious by suggesting to me to bring something but the Quran
if you mean my intellect, well it seems you totally lost it in here because all the walk through between the verses is my own words using my bloody intellect
salam
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If you had read carefully, you would have seen that Ayman never refuted that it is a building, it is about the purpose of the building, where we are talking about. Also the use of the word Salat, sujjod and ruku inside the Quran of God are the ones that determine its concept.
What you have done now, is confirming what Ayman also says, it is talking about a building, but is about the function of the building, and thus we have to look at the concept of salat. He also says it is a building, an instution we must discuss Quran of God with each other, that is what he means with the concept obeying forbidden and so on.
Check the understanding of Salat as given in the Quran of God, not the concept you have in your head right now...
Peace
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If you had read carefully, you would have seen that Ayman never refuted that it is a building, it is about the purpose of the building, where we are talking about. Also the use of the word Salat, sujjod and ruku inside the Quran of God are the ones that determine its concept.
What you have done now, is confirming what Ayman also says, it is talking about a building, but is about the function of the building, and thus we have to look at the concept of salat. He also says it is a building, an instution we must discuss Quran of God with each other, that is what he means with the concept obeying forbidden and so on.
Check the understanding of Salat as given in the Quran of God, not the concept you have in your head right now...
Peace
hello bro
if your comment is to me, then i have to say you don't know how i understand what masjid meaning exactly, which again was discussed in details before in other posts, there is nothing in my head bro other than masjid is a place where believers perform sijood to Allah in it, i even said there are places that can be considered a temperorly masjid if someone performed sijood in it, like an aeroplane for example, or on the sidewalk, or a building, or an office, or any clean place that sijood will be performed in it
the only thing in my head bro is the arabic quran, and i only speak with it really as you have just seen, but it seems many don't like it and want me to say somthing elase but the Quram, however i know that there is at least a couple who appreciate it and this is enough for me
peace and good night
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Peace,
AB this is exactly what i am talking about, you don't refute the article with proofs but you only give your concept, where is your proof this concept is correct? Give me your proof, by refuting Ayman's article on his understanding of masjid, sujood, ruku and so on. You say it yourself that it is your concept that masjid is used for sujood, it is your concept of sujood. A concept that is pre-programmed. It is your pre-programmed idea of what the use is of a masjid. You are not giving proof by refuting Ayman's article. Give me proof from the Quran of God, that this concept is also God's concept....
Peace
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no bro, i only talk by the Quran, and intellect has nothing to do with it here, i guess the stupid ones will be the ones who talk without the Quran or the ones who manipulate its crystal clear meaning
Ahmed the above is rubbish. What do you mean intellect has nothing to do with Quran?
I am not picking and choosing the verses. In those verses if one simply stay away from a structural understanding of the world masjid, it all gets clear.
After all why we need a place for submision? It does not make sense when people twist the term sujud (submission) to bowing or 5x parayers or worship, hence comes the mosques where prople go and bow, in a ritual. Its easy isn't it? When you do not have to serve/commit to the worldly task. With this mantality, nowonder we are lost.
Ahmed I think you should ponder on the Quran and use your intelect and information that we have today, cross-referenece it with itself and all the knowlwdge that we have, rather than sticking to the traditional understanding of the Arabic language. And for God sake do not cut and paste the Quran as I am well informed of those translations. AS you say we are scientist, lets use a scientific approach.
Peace
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peace bmbmm and all. You have some very valid points doctor. I think what some people have done is minimalised the salat into a narrow concept and forgotten the wider purpose of salat,which is to get in tune with reality(god.) and so improve our intentions and actions. All life is an effort to discover the true god.(the true reality.) When we close our minds or ignore certain realities and morals we can go backwards in development. Physical salat is one attempt at connecting with god,but it is not the only valid one,it may not work if one ignores basic realities of life.
Science is like salat in that you try to understand life/reality/god through the medium of observation,study and experiment. Some science is good,some is not so good.For science to be good it has to take account of basic realities or otherwise it will turn into a ritual of illusions.(like some salat.) Its not just the physical method which is all-important,but also how you analyse and use the results you get. You are right,if we all try to follow universal law then we can get harmony in the system and be more successful. we have to be patient and tolerant with other peoples different views and try to unite on common ground and/or try to educate in a decent,kind manner by using our god-given intellectual tools.
Peace all. -
Peace,
Great posts All.
Let,s get more into the contents of the prayer. Following some thoughts of Inayat khan collected by Wahidduddin
The first aspect of prayer is giving thanks to God for all the numberless blessings that are bestowed upon us at every moment of the day and night, and of which we are mostly unconscious.
The second aspect of prayer is laying our shortcomings before the unlimited perfection of the divine Being, and asking His forgiveness. This makes man conscious of his smallness, of his limitation, and therefore makes him humble before his God. And, by humbling himself before God man does not lose any virtue. God alone has the right to demand complete humility.
There is a beautiful story told of the King Akbar that when he was grieving with an almost ungovernable grief over the death of his mother, his ministers and friends tried to comfort him by influence and power. Akbar replied, "Yes, that is true, and that only makes my grief greater; for while I have everyone to bow before me, to give way to me, to salute me and obey me, my mother was the one person before whom I could humble myself; and I cannot tell you how great a joy that was to me."Think, then, of the far greater joy of humbling one-self before the Father-Mother God on Whose Love one can always depend. A spark only of love expresses itself in the human father and mother; the Whole of Love in God. In whatever manner a man humbles himself it can never be enough to express the humility of the limited self before Limitless Perfection.
peace,
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Peace alpha97. Very nice post. Inayat khan is a very interesting man,ive read bits of his book...Union with god/reality....now that should be the goal of all beings.
peace all. -
Peace ik,
praying towards ka'aba isn't praying TO Ka'aba or cube or what not, its the unity of the situation; that everyone else is facing that way. Yes a lot of them are idol worshippers, but you are held accountable for YOUR deeds not theirs, and in the Quran it states that whereever u go u must face it
Actually, if one takes "sujud" and "ruku" as physical prostration and bowing, then physically there is absolutely no difference between prostrating to and towards something.
So people who primarily interpret "sujud" as physical prostration and "masjid" as a physical building are actually physically prostrating to the cube.
Now, they will all start complaining that "intent" and what is in your heart is what matters. However, "intent" and all that are not physical so they are caught in their own contradictions. They are inevitably forced to admit that the primary meaning of "sujud" (and hence "masjid") is not physical.
The fact is that someone who has done physical sujud but disobeyed The God hasn't really done "sujud" so the primary meaning of "sujud" is obedience. Similarly, "masjid" is an institution of obedience that we are told is built on "taqwa" (forethought). I don't see any walls and ceilings in mosques using "taqwa" in place of bricks or mortar. But we can build on "taqwa" our institutions. This meaning of "masjid" as an institution not a physical place is even used today. For example, we often hear about "almasjid Al-Azhar issuing a fatwa". Surely, no one thinks that the walls and ceilings are the ones who issue the "fatwa".
Peace,
Ayman
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no bro, i only talk by the Quran, and intellect has nothing to do with it here, i guess the stupid ones will be the ones who talk without the Quran or the ones who manipulate its crystal clear meaning
Ahmed the above is rubbish. What do you mean intellect has nothing to do with Quran?
good morning bro
no bro it is not rubbish, i didn't say intellect has nothing to do with the Quran, this is a clear cut manipulation
i said, has nothing to do with it here, i mean the subject of the meaning of the Arabic word masjid
no bloody intellect is needed here, i was taught arabic when i was born and i was told this is a masjid, this is a plan, this is a bird, this is a dog etc etc, see, i was a child with almost no intellect and yet manged to grasp it and memorise it as such, like you with your native language
but nice try though lol
I am not picking and choosing the verses. In those verses if one simply stay away from a structural understanding of the world masjid, it all gets clear.
why i have to stay from the structural understanding of a meaning of any word?
After all why we need a place for submision? It does not make sense when people twist the term sujud (submission) to bowing or 5x parayers or worship, hence comes the mosques where prople go and bow, in a ritual. Its easy isn't it? When you do not have to serve/commit to the worldly task. With this mantality, nowonder we are lost.
the subject is not how many times a day we do sijood, the subject in hand is this
does Masjid means a place to perform sijood or not? and the answer is yes it meanns as such
Ahmed I think you should ponder on the Quran and use your intelect and information that we have today,
that is what i do, independentaly, i don't follow conjecture and that is why i try to understand the Quran as literal as possible and this is so easy for a native arabic speaker,
cross-referenece it with itself and all the knowlwdge that we have, rather than sticking to the traditional understanding of the Arabic language. And for God sake do not cut and paste the Quran as I am well informed of those translations. AS you say we are scientist, lets use a scientific approach.
Peace
now that is really BS and I'm sick and tired of this flawed argument that i'm sticking to the traditions, far out bro, if that is what you want to convince yourslef with, fine with me, but don't throw this accusation on public again at me, thanks
and for the Quran, no bro, i will keep doing what i do because i don't like others to just have a mere verse reference so the readers stop reading and try to find the verse in another location, it is so disturbing for the reader, and i post the arabic because that is what will stand in any argument i face, not the many flawed translations
now using our intellect, is fine, that is what i use but only in a simplified manner, i don't confuse others by trying to convince them with conjectures
salam
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Salam Ahmed,
You learning arabic since you were young doesn't mean anything to me. Many Arabs don't understand the Quran. Remember God didn't borrow the Arabic language from you or the Arabs, who claim to be masters of the language. Aditionally, if you love to worship the cube and do sujud to it then it fine as there is no complusion in the dinn. I will just serve through submission by contemplating on the haram (restrictions) in the submission (masjid). I also suggest you take a rest so that others can have a more productive discussion here lol
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Salam Ahmed,
salam bro
You learning arabic since you were young doesn't mean anything to me.
well, what is that kister scientist?, beased on the flawed argument above, you being a scientist means nothing to me lol
Many Arabs don't understand the Quran.
haha, as many scientists are indfidels lol
but I'm not of those ignorant arabs, i'm a professional native langugae speaker lol
Remember God didn't borrow the Arabic language from you or the Arabs,
this is a childish argument, however God chose Arabic to be used in His last warning to you and me, but bad luck to you if you ,ack arabic and sure bad luck to that arabs who lack arabic wink
who claim to be masters of the language.
conjecture and hearsay, who claimed to be a master in the language and you got him red handed? names, we need names, not hearsay and conjectures mister scientist
Aditionally, if you love to worship the cube and do sujud to it then it fine as there is no complusion in the dinn.
excuse me, how dare you tell me I'm worshipping a cube?, and how the hell you know that mister scientist?
I will just serve through submission by contemplating on the haram (restrictions) in the submission (masjid). I also suggest you take a rest so that others can have a more productive discussion here lol
lol, that is really non sense, so you want me to have a rest so others can have more productive conjectures? LOL
how about you have a rest and ignore my quran comments that refute you fair and square and also makes a scientist really look emarassing lol
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Salaamun alaikum AhmedBahgat,
Brother, you are a native Arabic speaker who knows the intricacies of the Arabic language and is well versed in the grammar and the language. Using the signs of the qur'aan and their context and your knowledge of the Arabic language, can you refute brother Ayman's post above quoted as follows ?
Actually, if one takes "sujud" and "ruku" as physical prostration and bowing, then physically there is absolutely no difference between prostrating to and towards something.
So people who primarily interpret "sujud" as physical prostration and "masjid" as a physical building are actually physically prostrating to the cube.
Now, they will all start complaining that "intent" and what is in your heart is what matters. However, "intent" and all that are not physical so they are caught in their own contradictions. They are inevitably forced to admit that the primary meaning of "sujud" (and hence "masjid") is not physical.
The fact is that someone who has done physical sujud but disobeyed The God hasn't really done "sujud" so the primary meaning of "sujud" is obedience. Similarly, "masjid" is an institution of obedience that we are told is built on "taqwa" (forethought). I don't see any walls and ceilings in mosques using "taqwa" in place of bricks or mortar. But we can build on "taqwa" our institutions. This meaning of "masjid" as an institution not a physical place is even used today. For example, we often hear about "almasjid Al-Azhar issuing a fatwa". Surely, no one thinks that the walls and ceilings are the ones who issue the "fatwa".
As a non Arabic speaking person I would be interested in knowing what you have to say about Ayman's post and whether you can provide an intellectual refutation based on the qur'aan.
622 And the Day We gather them all, then We say to those who set up partners "Where are your partners whom you used to claim?"
623 Then, their only excuse was to Say "By God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!"
624 See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them.In the above ayaat The God talks about people who did set up partners but will deny it or will claim to be ignorant of it on the Last Day. From this one can deduce that one might commit an action which will make oneself an idolater without knowing that one will become an idolater due to that action, even though one's intention while committing that physical act might be something different (for example doing physical sujud in the direction of a cube building). Therefore, it follows that one has to be extremely careful of one's physical actions IN ADDITION to one's intentions.
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peace
i agree with Ayman. If a person was to perform 'sujud' physically, it doesn't mean that his heart and mind are performing sujud as well.
And just because a person isn't performing sujud physically, doesn't mean he/she is disobeying God.
You don't need to show God your obedience through physical prostration.
So it isn't the action that's important, it is the intent. -
even hollywood has got this one figured out
The cube
http//zappa.brainiac.com/spaceship/FedModels/wm08.jpegThe hive mind
http//oddlots.digitalspace.net/ARX/downloads/borg.jpgThe cube
http//www.french-ital.ucsb.edu/classes/images/mecca-kaaba.jpgThe hive mind
http//www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/06.23.04/gifs/muslims-0426-1.jpgPeace
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Salaamun alaikum AhmedBahgat,
Peace brother tanveermd
Brother, you are a native Arabic speaker who knows the intricacies of the Arabic language and is well versed in the grammar and the language.
Alhamdullelah brother, I guess I?m lucky to be as such, I liked the language in my early study and was doing great in it at schools
Using the signs of the qur'aan and their context and your knowledge of the Arabic language, can you refute brother Ayman's post above quoted as follows ?
Bro, the Quran is the only thing that can refute, I don?t really refute, I?m not a type of person who likes to challenge others on a personal level, I careless about it really, but when it comes to religion, there are many factors that will result in me responding or not, sure number one in the list is if I have knowledge from the Quran about it or not, if yes then I let the Quran speak, some other factors maybe the personality of the person raising the argument, this is very important indeed, another thing is the subject that we are discussing, all in all I concluded that I should avoid this subject, while I?m still reading all the others comments including Ayman?s ones, the subject ?with Ayman admission? is not important anyway, therefore I need not to contribute to further rumours and conjectures, but I will try to read below and see if I can say something briefly inshaallah
Actually, if one takes "sujud" and "ruku" as physical prostration and bowing, then physically there is absolutely no difference between prostrating to and towards something.
don?t know what is the above quote about really, it just cause a bit of confusion to others, that?s all, firstly we are ordered to do it this way toward that direction from Allah Himself, therefore the above quote has not merit
So people who primarily interpret "sujud" as physical prostration
sure it is a physical prostration, we read in the Quran that Allah ordred the angels to prostrate to Adam , now I don?t think that order was anything but to prostrate physically to Adam, as we were ordered numerous times to prostrate physically to Allah
and "masjid" as a physical building are actually physically prostrating to the cube.
we are not prostrating to a cube, we were ordered in the Quran to face a specific direction, that direction was identified as al masjid al haram, now all the historical evidences told us that it is in Mecca, any other suggestion is a conjecture, that conjectures even changed the clear Arabic name of a city called Mecca to a status of destruction, which is way too far for me
Now, they will all start complaining that "intent" and what is in your heart is what matters.
not sure what intent here
intent to do sijood?
or intent to face al masjid al haram while doing sijood?
No need for an answer, because both cases are orders from Allah in the Quran, so we have no intent but to follow these ordres, being humble/hypocrite or not, that is a totally different story
However, "intent" and all that are not physical so they are caught in their own contradictions. They are inevitably forced to admit that the primary meaning of "sujud" (and hence "masjid") is not physical.
not sure who is caught in the act bro?, but any way, Masjid is on the wazn Mafaal and this in the Arabic linguistic should mean a place, i.e. a place to perform sijood on it
The fact is that someone who has done physical sujud but disobeyed The God hasn't really done "sujud"
that is something to Allah to work out, isn?t He the only one who knows what is in our hearts?, but I agree that being a hypocrite while saying you believe in Allah and you perform Sijood is a very bad sin
so the primary meaning of "sujud" is obedience.Similarly,
no, the primary meaning of Sijood is a physical act of bowing down on the floor, Obedience means sort of to Obey but not to perform Sijood as far as the Arabic langugae is concerned
"masjid" is an institution of obedience that we are told is built on "taqwa" (forethought).
no I?m sorry, it is not, it is an Arabic word on the wazn of Mafaal and that wazn mean the place name of the root, anything else is clear cut conjecture, I shown enough quran verses to refute that non sense, period.
I don't see any walls and ceilings in mosques using "taqwa" in place of bricks or mortar. But we can build on "taqwa" our institutions. This meaning of "masjid" as an institution not a physical place is even used today. For example, we often hear about "almasjid Al-Azhar issuing a fatwa". Surely, no one thinks that the walls and ceilings are the ones who issue the "fatwa".
same as my last comment
As a non Arabic speaking person I would be interested in knowing what you have to say about Ayman's post and whether you can provide an intellectual refutation based on the qur'aan.
bro, I posted enough verses regarding this subject of Sijood, I suggest that you read the thread about it, I will try to find it for you
622 And the Day We gather them all, then We say to those who set up partners "Where are your partners whom you used to claim?"
623 Then, their only excuse was to Say "By God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!"
624 See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them.In the above ayaat The God talks about people who did set up partners but will deny it or will claim to be ignorant of it on the Last Day. From this one can deduce that one might commit an action which will make oneself an idolater without knowing that one will become an idolater due to that action, even though one's intention while committing that physical act might be something different (for example doing physical sujud in the direction of a cube building). Therefore, it follows that one has to be extremely careful of one's physical actions IN ADDITION to one's intentions.
Well this is always a nice try by the people who claim that Muslims who perform sijood facing the Kaaba are committing idolatry, first of all and as I said before, they forgot that it was an order from Allah in His Quran, secondly they also forgot that really to be an idol worshipper we need something that at least moves or a statue in the shape of it, like
- a sun
- a star
- a moon
- a planet
- a bird
- a cow
- a human
an animal - a snake
- any statue of the above
I can?t see a building fitting even closely to any of the above or to a new category on its own
they have no argument to accuse such God obedience Muslims as such man, They are only obeying what Allah told them to do, I for myself don?t give a fluke about any sort of buildings really, now those who kiss it or do whatever on it, I'm not sure what is their intensions or objectives to do as such, it is not ordered in the Quran really, all that is ordered is to face that direction, NOTHING MORE
peace man and I will try to find the url for you
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Here we go brother tanveermd
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5222&highlight=masjid
peace
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Peace,
I understand this is a real difficult subject, and i'm still investigating. But a couple of questions AB, you give the the angels as an example.
1.How do you know angels have bodies that can prostrate physicaly?
2.Ever wondered that there are no descriptions in the Quran about angels?
3.How can you explain the planets in Josefs dream prostrating? Doesn't this refer to being obedient to him?
4.Doesn't all that exist do ruku/sujood? Doesn't that refer to obedience?
5.Isn't all creation muslim/submitting? Doesn't that refer to obedience?And so long you haven't given answers like Ayman did, using crossreference, how the word salat, ruku, sujood are used, you just can't keep defending your concept. You have to explain your concept. I say this really out of interrest.
Peace