Is "al-masjid al-haram" a physical building ?

[thegod]

ayman wrote
Thank you for the enlightening passages.

netime -)

ayman wrote
As you quoted, we are to remember The God as we remember our fathers or stronger remembrance. Do you remember your father by repeating "labayka father amma labayka" a thousand times while spinning around a stone? Of course not. You remember the many valuable lessons that he taught you. You remember him by respecting and obeying him (except if he told you to setup partners with The God). You remember him by thanking him for raising you as a child and sheltering you and giving you good things. You remember him by being grateful and a good son. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat "labayka father amma labayka" if you are ungrateful and a bad son who didn't learn anything good from his parents' experience. It is just mindless repitition.

its amusing that despite my pointing out to u that dhikr is 'spinning around a stone cube 7 times repeating something mindlessly' is something which u have assumed on my behalf...u not only 'persist' in it but also elaborate on it.....lets say ur 'standing' has started off on the wrong note so would be interesting to see what u end up prostrating to! -)

ayman wrote
We remember The God by studying his creation of the heavens and the earth, and realizing that our Lord did not create all this in vain.
When we remember The God by studying his signs and are amazed, we naturally say "subhan Allah" (The God is exalted).

i agree...and it is not resitrcited to 'subhanallah'...it can be 'alhamdulillah'...or 'la ilaha illa anta'...and so on...cool? -)

ayman wrote
I don't see anywhere in the passages that you quoted any indication that the circus going on in Mecca of spinning around a stone is ememberance of The God.

nor did i see...infact i posted for u the verses to show dhikr from quran...so why are u so obsessed with that which neither of us have anything to do with? -/

ayman wrote
I agree. The 7 spins are not supported by the great reading. They are only supported by ancient pagan birthing celebrations. Some of those traditions continue to this day. For example, as part of the ancient Subu3 birth celebrations, people go seven times around the house. Pagans spinned seven times around the Jinn block (the stone cube) of Allat in celebration of the re-birth of the fertility goddess on the winter solstice. The Black Stone is set in a female vulva shaped enclosure in the Southeast corner of Allat's Jinn block (which is covered in a black dress) precisely facing the winter sunrise. The pilgrims wear wraps like those that newborns are wrapped in. They run between two hills as symbolism for searching for water for a newborn. They kiss the crown of the head of the newborn baby idol as it is coming out of the vulve so that their sins are forgiven (kissing the head for forgiveness is an ancient Arab tradition) and by doing so they themselves return sinless as if they are newborn.

if u wanna add to ur text...cool...v are discussing baytalharam and masjidalharam...lets not get into that which has no basis in quran! -)

that said...does the quran tell u about those pagan customs or did u witness it for urself? i dont see all that in quran so i dont see why at the moment u want to meddle in affairs which dont concern us here...and just to remind u...v want to see things in light of quran...without interference from shia or sunni sources...or from any source other than quran....nor fairy tales! -)

ayman wrote
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that the primary meaning is "obedience". One can prostrate physically however many times he

wants but that is not real "sujud" if he disobeys The God. It is obedience to The God that makes it real "sujud". Now you can prostrate physically and there is nothing wrong with that but obeying The God comes first. Hence, if you understand it physically, you should obey The God and do it to the chin and NOT the forehead (17107).

yes...why do u lose urself in ur assumptions?? have i said its to be done on the forehead? that said even when done physcially the prostrating should be in spirit...but u do agree with physical prostration...cool -)

ayman wrote
No, there is nothing wrong with that. But if they kneel while they are arrogant then it is not real kneeling. It is just a show off.

agreed!

ayman wrote
7746-48. Eat and enjoy a little, you are criminals. Woe to the rejecters. And if it was said to them "irka'u", "la yarka'un".

3734-35. We do like this to the criminals. If it was said to them there is no god except The God, "yastakbirun" (they become arrogant).

According to 7746-48 The criminals do not kneel. So do you think that there are no criminals amongst the multitude of sectarians,

Trinitarians, Hindus, etc. who are physically kneeling everyday or is 7746-48 exaggerating? Of course not, real kneeling is primarily not being arrogant (i.e., being humble), physical kneeling is a secondary meaning.

do u not see what the quran says about those who take up idols or intercessors as associates with god? or do u say that those who
associate with god kneel to god alone? also..even when kneeling physically the mind should be away from all thoughts otherwise it is devoid of the essence...here is 3736

3736 And they say "Are we to leave our gods to a mad/insane poet?"

that said what do they become arrogant to? to the message that there is only one god...so they are those who take up other 'gods' or take 'co-gods'! -)

ayman wrote
If you look at how you remember The God above (by studying His signs), then you will see how everything fits together. Like any learning activity, you must persist when studying. If you give up when you encounter something difficult then you will not succeed. Similarly, you must be humble because if you think that you already have all the answers based on preconceptions then you will not succeed. Finally, once you learn something from The God then you must obey The God based on what you learned. All this is natural. This is the real "maqam"/status/position of Abraham. He persisted and was humble until he reached the truth. Once he did that, he was able to correctly obey The God. The "maqam Ibrahim" is not some idol in the form of a footprint as they have now in Mecca.

u seem to have this bias of trying to do away with 'physical' gestures by trying to lose urself in ur words...however since the quran talks about physical worship like solomon falling to his knees....the magicians of pharaoh prostrating on their chins....zechariah standing in salat...quran over-rides ur opinions! -)

ayman wrote
Yes. See 12106.

no..see 12107-108

ayman wrote
In general.

the above verses renders ur general view a bit weak..so explain how god is addressing those who do not believe in god telling them about the hajj to the house of god! -)

ayman wrote
Argument ("jidal&quot can happen outside the "hajj" forum. The word "rafath" means sexual contact and it is of course allowed with our wives. On the other hand, one should not argue in that forum and of course sex shouldn't be a part of that annual market or any market for that matter.

####### what kind of argument is not allowed in that forum? v will get back to the sexual contact stuff as well! -)

ayman wrote
The God teaches the great reading and He reveals (bayan) it through the messenger and those who were given the book (3187). Currently, those who were given this book are those who know the language of this book (Arabic). The word "furqan" like "quran" is an intensified common noun of the form "fu3lan". So like the word "quran", which literally means "intense reading", the word "furqan" means "intense differentiation". It is simply an attribute of this book (like "huda"/guidance).

####### so masjid cannot be an attribute of the bayt? is that what u are saying? v were talking about different titles...and different titles are used...is baytalharam something other than baytalatiq?

ayman wrote
The word "haram" means restriction. The word "masjid" means an institution of "sujud". As we saw above "sujud" primary meaning is obedience. So when we put all this together, "al-masjid al-haram" means the institution of obedience of the restriction.

are u saying muhammad was debarred from being in the station of spiritual obedience to god by his persecuters? can u give references from quran? -)

further...as v saw...according to ur interpretation masjidalharam like baytalharam was a place equally for humankind..who believe in one god and who associate...yet according to ur understanding god later disallowed who asscoiate from masjidalharam...can u shed some light on that from the quran? -)

ayman wrote
The word "sha3r" has a meaning of "awareness". So "al-mash3ar al-haram" means the institute of awareness of the restriction. This is how those who visit the house are made aware of what The God restricted on us.

can u translate 2197-199 according to ur understanding if u do not mind! -)

ayman wrote
The term "al-bayt al-haram" means the house of the restriction. It is the place where people can assemble in safety to witness benefits and remember The God.

what restriction? i mean are the restrictrions same as that of masjidalharam and baytalharam or different? v have seen above that

according to 12106-108 those who associate with god are not at all believers in god...while 2230-31 clearly speaks about those who believe in god! -)

ayman wrote
For most intents and purposes, according to the above four criteria from the great reading, this forum is a more fitting house than the one in Mecca.

######## for the present v are discussing baytalharam and masjidalharam...whether they are same or distinct...so let us keep it at that if u aint mind! -)

ayman wrote
I never said that "bayt" is not physical or "makan" is not a physical place. It is just that "makan al-bayt" is not a particular physical place. It is ANY place where the above four criteria are met.

######### so u do agree that makan albayt the alqawaida of which abraham raised can be a physical place...or can u deny it with certainty from the quran? -)

ayman wrote
Do you build a building using "makr" (scheming) or brick and mortar? You can see their empty physical building (2752) so the physical building can be intact. So those "qwa3id" are not physical but are "taqwa" (forethought) as per 9109-110.

where do u find in 2752 that the bunyana the alqawaida of which god came upon and caused the falling of its roof from above was built using 'scheming'? it simply says indeed schemed alladhi before them...so god came upon the buniyana the alqawaida...! can u show how u got ur understanding? -)

ayman wrote
Thank you for your intelligent observation. 9107 is indeed related to those passages and help clarify them.

########## netime!

ayman wrote
In fact, the word "masjid" in 9107 cannot be understood as a physical building.

ahan!

ayman wrote
This is for the simple reason that the walls and ceiling of a physical building cannot harm (dirar) anyone and certainly cannot separate between those who have faith or anticipate those who fight against The God and His messenger. So this confirms the meaning of "masjid" as an institution of obedience, i.e. an institution of authority (like government).

########### who talked about the physical walls and buildings causing harm? those who take such masjid are those who can cause harm...spread disbelief....is that too hard to imagine? so i guess that confirms nothing! -)

ayman wrote
There is nothing amazing about what I am saying and the meaning of "masjid" as an institution of authority and not a physical building is regularly used to this day. For example, we hear about "al-masjid Al-Azhar" issuing a "fatwa". Surely, no one thinks that the physical building (the floors, walls and ceilings) is capable of issuing an opinion of any kind but it is the institution that does.

huh?? so now u are trying to lend crendibility to abstract masjids by using the name of a mosque built by sunnis? hmmm...well..okay!

anyway...masjid alazhar is the name of a physical msoque..when u hear it issued a fatwa it is quite obvious that the bench or whatever they have issued the fatwa..so it does not lend credibility to ur claims...its just language...does the walls ceiling and floor of a court give the verdict or the judge? -)

ayman wrote
I think 2827 has a lot to do with this. The term "hajj" is never used in the great reading to refer to other than the one to the "bayt". So why exclude 2827? In fact, Madyan is much more likely to be the location of the first house than the location that was renamed to Mecca long after the great reading was sent.

############# are u trying to say the word hajj has its root in hajj to bayt and every application should be restricted to it? even if it refers to the bayt it would still not have an impact our discussion...whether the first house be in mecca or midian or madagascar...v intend to determine whether baytalharam and masjidalharam are distinct! -)

ayman wrote
Any community who doesn't setup partners with The God (2226) is automatically a model community, don't you think?

############## no....playing out a muslim in letter and spirit is needed to be a role model! -)

ayman wrote
The religion of Abraham is that he submitted to his Lord and he advised his progeny with the same (2131-132). He settled them at the house (1437) and thus became a community of those who submit to The God and not setup partners with Him.

most people are not firm on the true path or sometimes the newer generation loses the old values! -)

ayman wrote
Yes, the community is 24/7 and those who submit to The God and not setup partners with Him do that all the time. On the other hand, the "hajj" is not. You can only have an annual market, well annually! The location of the "hajj" is that community but the timing is annual. For more on the timing, please see http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm

lolz...when u have to play a model community 24/7 i dont see the significance of an annual fair! -) u are perhaps suggesting ghettoisation and to annually invite humanity to see the exhibition of ideal muslims.....do shed some light on how that works out! -)

that said i do not believe that simply 'not setting up with god' makes an ideal community....like i said...letter and spirit!

############### peace -)

[unknownuser]

Salaams Br.

the god wrote."# yes...why just business dealings and tradings...would it not be a continuous application?"

?business dealings and tradings? ? obviousely this was the prime thing taking men away from their families ? and that is the time and place one may be away from the wife/s,So certainly sexual gratification wasn?t/isn?t satisfied.

Like great Marco Polo , and others like him away from home???

Or traveling with your flock of sheep to sell or exchange for things to a gathering and/or a trading centre .

God Bless.

[ayman]

its amusing that despite my pointing out to u that dhikr is 'spinning around a stone cube 7 times repeating something mindlessly' is something which u have assumed on my behalf...u not only 'persist' in it but also elaborate on it.....lets say ur 'standing' has started off on the wrong note so would be interesting to see what u end up prostrating to! -)

Hmm... as far as I remember, you were promoting spinning around a stone earlier and only when shown the appropriate clear indisputable passages from the great reading did you change your mind and said that it wasn't really spinning and it was "going about". Similarly, you objected when I said that mindlessly repeating "labayka Allahuma labayk" thousands of times is not "thikr" (rememberance) of The God. So I asked you for the passages that tell us what "thikr" is and NONE of the passages that you brought indicated that repeating "labayka Allahuma labayk" thousands of times is "thikr". So in both cases, your objection was unfounded based on the great reading. So what are you objecting based on, if not based on the great reading? You are objecting because you were taught by Sunnis and Shias that "tawaf" means spinning around a stone and "thikr" means repeating "labayka Allahuma labayk" thousands of times. You were not objecting because what I said went against the great reading.

ayman wrote
We remember The God by studying his creation of the heavens and the earth, and realizing that our Lord did not create all this in vain.
When we remember The God by studying his signs and are amazed, we naturally say "subhan Allah" (The God is exalted).

i agree...and it is not resitrcited to 'subhanallah'...it can be 'alhamdulillah'...or 'la ilaha illa anta'...and so on...cool? -)

Based on your comment above, I don't think that you really agree or you really pondered on what I said. It is not just mindlessly repeating 'subhanallah', 'alhamdulillah' or 'la ilaha illa anta'. Rememberance/"thikr" is a process that requires one to first study and think about The God's signs and realizing that those signs were created for a purpose and then becoming amazed and exalting The God. Going through the process everyday and saying "subhan Allah" once is far better than ritualistically and mechanically saying it thosuands of times without going through the rememberance process.

nor did i see...infact i posted for u the verses to show dhikr from quran...so why are u so obsessed with that which neither of us have anything to do with? -/

You were earlier defending the spinning around the stone and the endless mechanical repitition of certain words. So tell us what do you propose we should do at "hajj" and what purpose is accomplished?

if u wanna add to ur text...cool...v are discussing baytalharam and masjidalharam...lets not get into that which has no basis in quran! -)
that said...does the quran tell u about those pagan customs or did u witness it for urself?

I witnessed them for myself. You would witness them too if you see what goes on in Mecca.

i dont see all that in quran so i dont see why at the moment u want to meddle in affairs which dont concern us here...and just to remind u...v want to see things in light of quran...without interference from shia or sunni sources...or from any source other than quran....nor fairy tales! -)

The great reading tells us that the pagans were idolising Allat, Aluzza and Manat (5319-2. It tells us that people thought those were controllers ("malaika&quot. We are told in 3440-41 that those idols were not in fact "malaika" but were "jinn".

If you knew anything about Sunni and Shia sources then you would have known that I didn't get anything from those sources. As for sources other than the great reading, I think that you need to realize that the great reading itself encourages us to look at the "athar" (physical evidence) of those who came before us (for example 309). In the great reading we are asked to verify everything empirically (1736). Unlike physical archeological evidence, Sunni and Shia sources are unverifiable hearsay. All the verifiable physical evidence that I have seen contradicts those unverifiable hearsay sources.

At any rate, you were defending the rituals in Mecca (the spinning and the mechanical repeating) but then you were shown that they had no basis in the great reading. You still haven't told us where the present rituals in Mecca came from so I gave the origin of those rituals based on empirical obesrvation (you can see for yourself that people spin seven times around the house during Subu3 birthing celebrations and that the cube is dressed in a black dress and the Black Stone is in a female vulva-shaped enclosure) and physical archeological evidence (you can see for yourself cubes similar to the one in Mecca in places like Petra and you can see Black Stones similar to the broken one in Mecca that are symbols of fertility goddesses).

yes...why do u lose urself in ur assumptions?? have i said its to be done on the forehead? that said even when done physcially the prostrating should be in spirit...but u do agree with physical prostration...cool -)

So do you agree that the primary meaning is "obedience" (the spirit of prostration) and physical prostration is completely irrelevant if the first is not there?

ayman wrote
No, there is nothing wrong with that. But if they kneel while they are arrogant then it is not real kneeling. It is just a show off.

agreed!

Good.

do u not see what the quran says about those who take up idols or intercessors as associates with god? or do u say that those who associate with god kneel to god alone? also..even when kneeling physically the mind should be away from all thoughts otherwise it is devoid of the essence...here is 3736
3736 And they say "Are we to leave our gods to a mad/insane poet?"
that said what do they become arrogant to? to the message that there is only one god...so they are those who take up other 'gods' or take 'co-gods'! -)

I agree and I am not sure what you are arguing about. You agreed earlier that the primary meaning is being humble because "physical kneeling" without being humble is just "showing off" and NOT REAL KNEELING. I guess maybe you just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

u seem to have this bias of trying to do away with 'physical' gestures by trying to lose urself in ur words...however since the quran talks about physical worship like solomon falling to his knees....the magicians of pharaoh prostrating on their chins....zechariah standing in salat...quran over-rides ur opinions! -)

The great reading also talks about rejecters being deaf and blind. Does it mean physically deaf and blind? Of course not! Everything that I said is based on the great reading. Your insistence on focusing on mechanical physical gestures shows that you only read the great reading very superficially and haven't grasped the message.

no..see 12107-108

I did and there is nothing there that negates the statement in 12106. Specifically, the majority of those who have faith do not do so except while they are setting up partners with The God. Sectarians have faith in The God but they setup the prophet, their saints, their clergy, a stone cube, the Black Stone, etc. as partners with The God.

the above verses renders ur general view a bit weak..so explain how god is addressing those who do not believe in god telling them about the hajj to the house of god! -)

You are just complicating things for yourself. The God's message is clear. His command to Ibrajim is to invite people with the "hajj". It is a clear command. Ibrahim didn't turn around and say "I am going to go into the heart of each person and only invite those who I see that in their heart they believe in The God." It is impossible. We are to follow the example of Ibrahim and obey The God's clear command and not let our biases and preconceptions prevent people from coming to the real "hajj".

####### what kind of argument is not allowed in that forum? v will get back to the sexual contact stuff as well! -)

I know you have nothing to get back with me on the sexual contact ("rafath&quot. The same exact word is used in 2187 to indicate contact with our wives. So I know that what I am saying is supported by the great reading.

####### so masjid cannot be an attribute of the bayt? is that what u are saying? v were talking about different titles...and different titles are used...is baytalharam something other than baytalatiq?

If you don't know the basic difference between an attribute (a common noun/adjective) and a title (a proper name) then it is no wonder that you are confused. Titles are meaningless labels. Hence, your screen name "thegod" is a meaningless title that you took since you are not really "the god". On the other hand, attributes have meaning. The terms "albayt alharam" (the restriction house) and "albayt alatiq" (the freeing house) are common nouns not proper names. So they have meaning and should be translated.

ayman wrote
The word "haram" means restriction. The word "masjid" means an institution of "sujud". As we saw above "sujud" primary meaning is obedience. So when we put all this together, "al-masjid al-haram" means the institution of obedience of the restriction.

are u saying muhammad was debarred from being in the station of spiritual obedience to god by his persecuters? can u give references from quran? -)

Maybe you don't know what "institution" means. When you institutionalize something this means that you implement it. Of course the prophet and his followers were prevented by the rejecters from implementing the obedience of the restriction. What is restricted is given in 6151-153, among other passages.

further...as v saw...according to ur interpretation masjidalharam like baytalharam was a place equally for humankind..who believe in one god and who associate...yet according to ur understanding god later disallowed who asscoiate from masjidalharam...can u shed some light on that from the quran? -)

You can think of "masjid" as an institution of authority like government. With this in mind and as we saw above, "al-masjid al-haram" is the institution that implements obedience of what The God restricted on us (see 6151-153). So what we are told is to not allow those who setup partners to be near this institution. In the great reading the word "near" is not merely physical nearness but signifies a position of influence, close relation and favor. In other words, those who setup partners should not have influence and be closely involved in the management of the institution of obeying the restriction. Of course this makes perfect sense because those who setup partners violate the charter of that institution given in 6151-153.

can u translate 2197-199 according to ur understanding if u do not mind! -)

2197-199
The annual market is in known full-moons. So whoever decrees in them the annual market, there is no sexual activities, no wickedness, and no quarrelling in the market. And what you do from good The God knows and take provisions, for the best provision is forethought, and be forethoughtful of me O you who possess intelligence.
There is no blame on you for seeking favors from your Lord, so when you get involved in meetings, remember The God at the institute of awareness of the restriction. And remember Him like He guided you and indeed you were before that from those who went astray.
Then get involved where people get involved and ask The God for forgiveness, indeed The God is forgiving, merciful.

what restriction? i mean are the restrictrions same as that of masjidalharam and baytalharam or different? v have seen above that

The restriction that is given in 6151-153 and other passages.

according to 12106-108 those who associate with god are not at all believers in god...while 2230-31 clearly speaks about those who believe in god! -)

12106-108 do not say as you claim that "those who associate with god are not at all believers in god". Clearly, 12106-108 say that the majority of those who believe in The God are "mushrikin" (associate partners with Him). Of course, this is logical. They have to believe in The God first in order to setup partners with Him. Otherwise, who are they setting up partners with?

######## for the present v are discussing baytalharam and masjidalharam...whether they are same or distinct...so let us keep it at that if u aint mind! -)

This is ironic because you haven't said anything about where you think your physical building of "baytalharam and masjidalharam" is. So instead of criticizing without telling us anything useful, please tell us where you think your physical buildings are according to the "quran".

######### so u do agree that makan albayt the alqawaida of which abraham raised can be a physical place...or can u deny it with certainty from the quran? -)

It is certain that "alqawaid" (the foundations) are not physical and "bayt" is ANY place that satisfies the requirements. How can you "raise" the foundations FROM the house?

I think that the foundations and house are not those of a particular ancient physical building. If they are, then really there is nothing more for you talk about because this building and its walls and foundation has been destroyed long ago and it is certainly no longer here. This is indisputable.

where do u find in 2752 that the bunyana the alqawaida of which god came upon and caused the falling of its roof from above was built using 'scheming'? it simply says indeed schemed alladhi before them...so god came upon the buniyana the alqawaida...! can u show how u got ur understanding? -)

It says "those before them have schemed" everything afterwards is a result of their scheming. You are cutting the sentence short in 1626.

1626. Those before them have schemed, but The God came to their buildings from the foundations, thus the roof fell on top of them, and the retribution came to them from where they did not know.

########### who talked about the physical walls and buildings causing harm? those who take such masjid are those who can cause harm...spread disbelief....is that too hard to imagine? so i guess that confirms nothing! -)

No it says that they used "al-masjid" to "cause harm, spread disbelief, etc." A physical building is nothing more than floors, walls and ceilings. How can you use the floors, walls and ceilings of a physical building to do this?

huh?? so now u are trying to lend crendibility to abstract masjids by using the name of a mosque built by sunnis? hmmm...well..okay!

This has nothing to do with Sunnis. Such usages are common in all languages. It is an eloquent way to talk that assumes that both the listener and the talker are not superficial and merely concerned with the physical aspects but are concerned with communicating ideas.

anyway...masjid alazhar is the name of a physical msoque..when u hear it issued a fatwa it is quite obvious that the bench or whatever they have issued the fatwa..so it does not lend credibility to ur claims...its just language...does the walls ceiling and floor of a court give the verdict or the judge? -)

Using your superficial logic, the bench would be a physical wooden bench and the physical court building would be the one giving verdicts. But we know that this is not what you meant because you are an intelligent person who is able to use language and examples eloquently and not superficially and as an audience I am also intelligent enough to able to reach a deeper understanding than the superficial false physical one. You see, you allow yourself to use eloquent speech that has deeper meaning than the merely superficial physical meaning but you deny such ability to The God. My advice to you is you should appreciate The God more.

############# are u trying to say the word hajj has its root in hajj to bayt and every application should be restricted to it? even if it refers to the bayt it would still not have an impact our discussion...whether the first house be in mecca or midian or madagascar...v intend to determine whether baytalharam and masjidalharam are distinct! -)

How do you know whether they are distinct or not and what is the relation between them if you don't even seem to know what they mean? If you really know what they mean then why don't you translate "baytalharam" and "masjidalharam" for us?

############## no....playing out a muslim in letter and spirit is needed to be a role model! -)

All that the great reading says in 2226 about the location is Ibrahim to not setting up partners as the only requirement for the location of the house. I don't know what you mean by "muslim". It means different things to different people.

most people are not firm on the true path or sometimes the newer generation loses the old values! -)

This is why the physical place is not important. It is those values that matter. If people at the place lose the values, then the place stops being the restriction house.

lolz...when u have to play a model community 24/7 i dont see the significance of an annual fair! -) u are perhaps suggesting ghettoisation and to annually invite humanity to see the exhibition of ideal muslims.....do shed some light on how that works out! -)
that said i do not believe that simply 'not setting up with god' makes an ideal community....like i said...letter and spirit!

So give an example of a community today that doesn't setup partners with The God and is not a model community.

Peace,

Ayman

[thegod]

simple wrote
the god wrote."# yes...why just business dealings and tradings...would it not be a continuous application?"

business dealings and tradings obviousely this was the prime thing taking men away from their families and that is the time and place one may be away from the wife/s,So certainly sexual gratification wasnt/isnt satisfied.''

Like great Marco Polo , and others like him away from home???

Or traveling with your flock of sheep to sell or exchange for things to a gathering and/or a trading centre .

i am not sure it is about unsatisfied needs because of being away from wife...its perhaps about not indulging in the act even if one is able to...if a family goes together...or a couple goes together on trading...in that case they would not be away from each other...cool? -)

salaams -)

[thegod]

ayman wrote
Hmm... as far as I remember, you were promoting spinning around a stone earlier and only when shown the appropriate clear indisputable passages from the great reading did you change your mind and said that it wasn't really spinning and it was "going about".

lolz...like i said u try ur best to limit things to ur limited understanding rather than expand ur understanding to comprehend them...u are claiming i meant by circumambulate to 'spin around a stone 7 times'...so for ur benefit let me recall our dialogue...i wrote

that is because u are viewing masjidalharam and baytalharam as distinct! still...let's look at the 2226 to get a clearer picture...

And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place of the (holy) House, saying Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration.

circumambulate this house....why?...because it is a sign from god...see 396-97...so that makes believing in god a condition!

as u can see i never made any such claim about 7 spins or any stone..it was a plain lie on ur part..now lets see how u understand circumambulate

ayman wrote
There is no "circumbulate" anywhere in this passage or the entire great reading. This of course, unless you want to make the suggestion that those who go in heaven have drinks or servants spinning seven times around them (5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, 7615) and your family and you spin seven times around each other (245. So clearly, "circumbulate" has nothing to do with what The God's message is actually saying.

so according to u circumambulate is spinning around something 7 times! now had u bothered to actually look up the word "circumambulate" instead of devoting urself to typing basesless allegations...u would have learnt that circumambulate means to walk around...think circumnavigate...that might help understand a bit better...dont get misled by the word 'around'...whether u walk around a square or a circular or a kite-shaped structure....it would still be called as walking 'around' it and here is as good as going about the house of god! now u can see that it has got nothing to do with ur understanding of circumambulation as 'spinning 7 times around something'...so rather than 'spinning' yarns promoting falsehood u should check up things before u speak! D

that said i do feel what u said was based on ur misunderstanding a few things rather than being intentional....so i dont really mind it...if u would want to go through the rest of ur post and make edits...if any at all...do so by all means...if instead u want to stick to the text i am fine with it...jus reply to the above points and ask me to get on with answerin the remainder of ur post! -)

and yes...i think i will be looking over 'attaifeena' a bit more!

peace -)

[ayman]

Peace,

ayman wrote
There is no "circumbulate" anywhere in this passage or the entire great reading. This of course, unless you want to make the suggestion that those who go in heaven have drinks or servants spinning seven times around them (5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, 7615) and your family and you spin seven times around each other (245. So clearly, "circumbulate" has nothing to do with what The God's message is actually saying.

so according to u circumambulate is spinning around something 7 times! now had u bothered to actually look up the word "circumambulate" instead of devoting urself to typing basesless allegations...u would have learnt that circumambulate means to walk around...think circumnavigate...that might help understand a bit better...dont get misled by the word 'around'...whether u walk around a square or a circular or a kite-shaped structure....it would still be called as walking 'around' it and here is as good as going about the house of god! now u can see that it has got nothing to do with ur understanding of circumambulation as 'spinning 7 times around something'...so rather than 'spinning' yarns promoting falsehood u should check up things before u speak! D

that said i do feel what u said was based on ur misunderstanding a few things rather than being intentional....so i dont really mind it...if u would want to go through the rest of ur post and make edits...if any at all...do so by all means...if instead u want to stick to the text i am fine with it...jus reply to the above points and ask me to get on with answerin the remainder of ur post! -)

From what you said above, obviously there was no misunderstanding on my part. If you are still defending circumambulate/walk around/circumnavigate or whatever you want to call it, then there is no misunderstanding. It doesn't matter if you "circumnavigate" 1, 7, or 1000 times, there is no "circumnavigate" in the great reading. The term "tawaf" can be better understood as "mingle with one another" as seen from the passages where it occurs.

You said many times that you base your understanding on the great reading and I respect that. So if you really think that there is a misunderstanding on my part then translate what "al-masjid al-haram" and "al-bayt al-haram" and tell us where and what those are based on the great reading. Also, tell us what you think "hajj" is and what is its purpose and how this purpose is accomplished. This way you can add value to the discussion instead of merely being satisfied with criticizing without giving any better understanding. This will help not just you and me but also everyone who is reading this thread.

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman

[alpha97]

Peace Ayman,

If you would care, this is my view on Hajj.
http//www.shariati.com/HAJJ2.html

peace,

[ayman]

Peace Alpha,

If you would care, this is my view on Hajj.
http//www.shariati.com/HAJJ2.html

Your view meaning that you are Dr. Shariati or that you are adopting Dr. Shariati's view?

I had read the article before and there are many things in it that are not supported by the great reading. Just as a quick remakr, the author does mention one interesting thing that I agree with "Atiq represents being free!"

Peace,

Ayman

[alpha97]

Peace Ayman,

Dr Shariati passed away some 25 years ago. I find it a great read for those who want to grasp the idea behind the original intention of HAJJ.

peace,

[thegod]

ayman wrote
From what you said above, obviously there was no misunderstanding on my part. If you are still defending circumambulate/walk around/circumnavigate or whatever you want to call it, then there is no misunderstanding. It doesn't matter if you "circumnavigate" 1, 7, or 1000 times, there is no "circumnavigate" in the great reading. The term "tawaf" can be better understood as "mingle with one another" as seen from the passages where it occurs.

ur 'mingle with one another' is really not that sound...it would mean u would be mingling with vessels! again it is also based on ur asusmption that hajj is an annual fair for socialising the structure of which u have not described despite my having previously asked u this....so u are basing 1 assummption on another!-)

as for how u previously understood circumambulate (spinning 7 times around something) is from ur own posts so there is no way u can deny that! -)

ayman wrote
You said many times that you base your understanding on the great reading and I respect that. So if you really think that there is a misunderstanding on my part then translate what "al-masjid al-haram" and "al-bayt al-haram" and tell us where and what those are based on the great reading. Also, tell us what you think "hajj" is and what is its purpose and how this purpose is accomplished. This way you can add value to the discussion instead of merely being satisfied with criticizing without giving any better understanding. This will help not just you and me but also everyone who is reading this thread.

criticising without providing a better understanding is calling others wrong by putting forth a theory based on assumptions...with an initial assumption being used as proof to reinforce a following assumption! i had clearly pointed out the main reasons for my remarks but over time u kept digressing from the issue by taking up practises at the bayt and even delving into pagan rituals which for that matter u have not told how u derived!

i had based my initial assessment on the fact that both masjidalharam and baytalharam have been stated as having been made for all humanity and yet both of them have definitely been dissociated with who associate...try to focus on this as this does not involve ur understanding or my understanding...when v resolve this i would be only too glad to help our understanding in any way i can! -)

v saw from the verse 2225 that masjidalharam has been made for all of the humankind...a similar thing has been stated for baytalharam in verse 2227...since u opine that baytalharam is for all humankind based on 2227..it clearly follows that masjidalharam was also for all of humankind based on 2225! fine so far? now ur claim is that in 928 who associate were disallowed from masjidalharam after previously being allowed...then explain to me why was it that till the revelation of this verse they were previously allowed but now they were to be disallowed henceforth!

again...397 says that the hajj to allah is upon humankind who(so) is able to seek means....then explain how those who do not believe in god will listen to the message of god! lets suppose u do not believe in the god whose messenger abraham came as...and believe in some other 'god' which abraham has renounced...and abraham says to u...'listen there is this building or this fair unto which god has ordained upon u a visit'...would u pay heed to him when u do not see him as a messenger of god?

ayman wrote
I hope this helps.

lets see -)

####### peace -)

[ayman]

ur 'mingle with one another' is really not that sound...it would mean u would be mingling with vessels! again it is also based on ur asusmption that hajj is an annual fair for socialising the structure of which u have not described despite my having previously asked u this....so u are basing 1 assummption on another!-)

as for how u previously understood circumambulate (spinning 7 times around something) is from ur own posts so there is no way u can deny that! -)

Mingle also means coming together. So yes the vessels are brought together with them as clear from 7615. You are simply evading the clear fact that there is no such thing as "circumnavigate" or "circumbilate" in the great reading. Once again you endlessly argue but fail to bring any evidence from the great reading that "tawaf" means what you conjecture.

criticising without providing a better understanding is calling others wrong by putting forth a theory based on assumptions...with an initial assumption being used as proof to reinforce a following assumption! i had clearly pointed out the main reasons for my remarks but over time u kept digressing from the issue by taking up practises at the bayt and even delving into pagan rituals which for that matter u have not told how u derived!

i had based my initial assessment on the fact that both masjidalharam and baytalharam have been stated as having been made for all humanity and yet both of them have definitely been dissociated with who associate...try to focus on this as this does not involve ur understanding or my understanding...when v resolve this i would be only too glad to help our understanding in any way i can! -)

v saw from the verse 2225 that masjidalharam has been made for all of the humankind...a similar thing has been stated for baytalharam in verse 2227...since u opine that baytalharam is for all humankind based on 2227..it clearly follows that masjidalharam was also for all of humankind based on 2225! fine so far? now ur claim is that in 928 who associate were disallowed from masjidalharam after previously being allowed...then explain to me why was it that till the revelation of this verse they were previously allowed but now they were to be disallowed henceforth!

You seem to love arguing for the sake of arguing. This has resulted in your obvious inability to read. Here is what I said in my first reply to you where I answered the issue that you raised about both masjidalharam and baytalharam stated as having been made for all humanity

Also, another consideration is the verb "yaqrabu". I think that its meaning needs to be more carefully studied. 7114 makes it clear that the word "muqaraboon" can be used to signify not merely "come near" but "being one of those with influence or one of the political decision makers". So a better understanding is that "al-masjid al-7aram" is made for all people but those who setup partners cannot have influence on it or be the decision makers about it. This would be consistent with the function of al-masjid al-7aram".

So to reiterate, both "al-bayt al-haram" and "al-masjid al-haram" were made for all people. However, being one of those who have influence on "al-masjid al-haram" should not be allowed for those who setup partners, that is all.

again...397 says that the hajj to allah is upon humankind who(so) is able to seek means....then explain how those who do not believe in god will listen to the message of god! lets suppose u do not believe in the god whose messenger abraham came as...and believe in some other 'god' which abraham has renounced...and abraham says to u...'listen there is this building or this fair unto which god has ordained upon u a visit'...would u pay heed to him when u do not see him as a messenger of god?

The message of The God are in His signs. The signs are both in the great reading and all around us. So those who don't believe in The God listen and see those signs everyday. You don't have to believe in anything to listen to The God's signs. It is up to The God to guide people or not after they listen.

As for Abraham, he was ordered to invite people WITH the "hajj" not TO the "hajj". The "hajj" is simply a tool to invite people. Everyone will come to the market that is setup in a place where there are no partners with The God because as stated in the great reading, the FIRST reason is to WITNESS BENEFITS.

Again, try to read properly instead of arguing for the sake of arguing. This is why a more productive activity for you is to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean and maybe you will come to the same conclusion as me and save us both some time. If you don't come to the same conclusion then maybe you will come to a better conclusion and add value instead of endlessly arguing about the same point due to your inability to read my first response.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace Alpha,

Dr Shariati passed away some 25 years ago. I find it a great read for those who want to grasp the idea behind the original intention of HAJJ.

Here is a statement from Dr. Shariati that summerises all that is wrong with his view

"the Kaaba is an empty cube - nothing else"

Here are the simple indisputable facts from the great reading that contradict the above statement and thus completely demolish Dr. Shariati's essay

1. "ka'ba" is itself the restriction house/"al-bayt al-7aram" (597).
2. The restriction house/"al-bayt al-7aram"/"ka'ba" is a place where people can assemble in safety (2125) INSIDE IT (397), thus when they ENTER IT, they are secure.
3. There are signs of the "maqam"/status/position of Ibrahim INSIDE the restriction house/"al-bayt al-7aram", i.e. INSIDE the "kaaba"(397).

Peace,

Ayman

[thegod]

ayman wrote
Mingle also means coming together. So yes the vessels are brought together with them as clear from 7615.

is not to bring together 'jama'? if u want to simply stick to ur understanding and argue without making sense just to evade the truth its ur lookout..but if u are seriously interested keep readin....cups and humans do not 'come together'...leave alone 'mingle'...give anybody a cup in his hand and tell him is being mingled with the cup and u will know for urself...hopefully...also i sincerely suggest u look up the word 'mingle' before u post a reply!

ayman wrote
You are simply evading the clear fact that there is no such thing as "circumnavigate" or "circumbilate" in the great reading. Once again you endlessly argue but fail to bring any evidence from the great reading that "tawaf" means what you conjecture.

lets get things straight...i used the word circumambulate for a specific verse...2226...however wont as u are to make false claims u have gone ahead and lied that i understand 'tawaf' as circumambulate...i do not see any reasons why anybody would want to stoop to such mediocre levels and lose credibility!

coming back to 'tawaf'...i understood that as 'going about'! when applied to 2226 it becomes going about the bayt which can be replaced by circumambulate the bayt...so the word was for a particular verse and not a generalisation of 'tawaf'...in a general sense i would have said 'tawaf' is 'going about'....i hope u have the ability to appreciate the wide gap between what u thought to be and what actually is! -)

ayman wrote
You seem to love arguing for the sake of arguing.This has resulted in your obvious inability to read.

no need for slandering...however if thats the best u can do...cool! -)

ayman wrote
Here is what I said in my first reply to you where I answered the issue that you raised about both masjidalharam and baytalharam stated as having been made for all humanity

Quote from ayman on April 19, 2006, 055214 PM
Also, another consideration is the verb "yaqrabu". I think that its meaning needs to be more carefully studied. 7114 makes it clear that the word "muqaraboon" can be used to signify not merely "come near" but "being one of those with influence or one of the political decision makers". So a better understanding is that "al-masjid al-7aram" is made for all people but those who setup partners cannot have influence on it or be the decision makers about it. This would be consistent with the function of al-masjid al-7aram".

So to reiterate, both "al-bayt al-haram" and "al-masjid al-haram" were made for all people. However, being one of those who have influence on "al-masjid al-haram" should not be allowed for those who setup partners, that is all.

the problem perhaps is with either ur reading or ur comprehension or both....i think i should go at a pace at which u can understand..so i will try again...using emphasis now and then to make u understand better!

let me recall ur initial reply..which was posted before what u pasted above claiming to be ur initial response

ayman wrote
928. O you who had faith, those who set up partners are pollution so they do not come near the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden after this year of theirs. And if you fear neediness, The God will enrich you from His favor if He willed, indeed The God is knowledgeable, wise.

One possible understanding is that "after this year of theirs" in 928 indicates that those who setup partners were previously allowed to come near the institute of hearing and obeying the restriction ("al-masjid al-7aram&quot as per 2225.

as u can see u had stated that previously those who associate were allowed to come near masjidalharam..now take the meaning of yaqrubu which u proposed..as having influence..so it clearly follows that according to u previously those who associate were allowed to influence masjidalharam...so my question was why is it that those who associate had previously been allowed being near or influential to masjidalharam and later disallowed...i have repeated this question twice now and i hope the query is clear to u now!

ayman wrote
Quote from ayman on April 19, 2006, 055214 PM
Also, another consideration is the verb "yaqrabu". I think that its meaning needs to be more carefully studied. 7114 makes it clear that the word "muqaraboon" can be used to signify not merely "come near" but "being one of those with influence or one of the political decision makers". So a better understanding is that "al-masjid al-7aram" is made for all people but those who setup partners cannot have influence on it or be the decision makers about it. This would be consistent with the function of al-masjid al-7aram".

So to reiterate, both "al-bayt al-haram" and "al-masjid al-haram" were made for all people. However, being one of those who have influence on "al-masjid al-haram" should not be allowed for those who setup partners, that is all.

so that is not all...as i tried to explain above! coming back to muqaraabun as in 7114...are u saying the magicians becoming muqarrabun to pharaoh would have meant that they would be able to influence his decisions?...that he would consult them before making or executing his decisions...or they would make him implement their suggestions?....or they would be of those who would set the laws alongside pharaoh...what do u imply by having influence on the political decision makers?

ayman wrote
Quote from ayman on April 19, 2006, 055214 PM
The message of The God are in His signs. The signs are both in the great reading and all around us. So those who don't believe in The God listen and see those signs everyday. You don't have to believe in anything to listen to The God's signs. It is up to The God to guide people or not after they listen.

everybody sees these signs which u speak of...so u have essentially stated nothing! the sun...the moon...these are from the ayats of god and u do not need to involve a hajj to listen or witness these signs...do u?...so when god talks 'ayatin bayyinatin' in the bayt it cannot be these signs as these...as u urself agree...are witnessed every second by everybody...and there is no need for an annual fair to listen to these signs!

ayman wrote
As for Abraham, he was ordered to invite people WITH the "hajj" not TO the "hajj". The "hajj" is simply a tool to invite people. Everyone will come to the market that is setup in a place where there are no partners with The God because as stated in the great reading, the FIRST reason is to WITNESS BENEFITS.

atleast use technically sound lies if u want to distort the word of god...'adhinat' is not invite....perhaps 'inform/bring to attention'...perhaps 'put in the ear of'...so it says 'and put in the ears of the humankind/inform the humankind/bring to attention the humankind with/by the hajj'...i hope u will make a note of this as u have a habit of distorting quran and claiming the contrary!

also...this renders the rest of what u wrote as irrelevant as it was based on something which has been shown as being distortion of quran! -)

ayman wrote
Again, try to read properly instead of arguing for the sake of arguing.

i think v have seen so far who has a habit of slandering others and even distorting the words of quran! -)

ayman wrote
This is why a more productive activity for you is to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean and maybe you will come to the same conclusion as me and save us both some time. If you don't come to the same conclusion then maybe you will come to a better conclusion and add value instead of endlessly arguing about the same point due to your inability to read my first response.

figure out that which has been presented to u thus far and then v will discuss productivity! and yes...read a little better...comprehend a bit better...both the quran and what i write...and stay away from slandering and distorting...both my words and the words of god!-)

peace -)

[ayman]

is not to bring together 'jama'? if u want to simply stick to ur understanding and argue without making sense just to evade the truth its ur lookout..but if u are seriously interested keep readin....cups and humans do not 'come together'...leave alone 'mingle'...give anybody a cup in his hand and tell him is being mingled with the cup and u will know for urself...hopefully...

You are again demonstrating your inability to read. In 7615, "yutaf" is in the passive. This means that it is not the cups coming together by themselves but are brought.

also i sincerely suggest u look up the word 'mingle' before u post a reply!

Instead of lazily criticizing and giving advice without doing it yourself, check a Thesaurus and you will see that "come together" is a synonym of "mingle".

Given your attitude, I am not going to waste my time on educating you on what a Thesaurus is or how to use it.

lets get things straight...i used the word circumambulate for a specific verse...2226...however wont as u are to make false claims u have gone ahead and lied that i understand 'tawaf' as circumambulate...i do not see any reasons why anybody would want to stoop to such mediocre levels and lose credibility!

coming back to 'tawaf'...i understood that as 'going about'! when applied to 2226 it becomes going about the bayt which can be replaced by circumambulate the bayt...so the word was for a particular verse and not a generalisation of 'tawaf'...in a general sense i would have said 'tawaf' is 'going about'....i hope u have the ability to appreciate the wide gap between what u thought to be and what actually is! -)

This is funny "I lied when I said that you understand 'tawaf' as circumambulate" but then in the next paragraph you say that you indeed understand it as circumambulate when applied to 2226.

You are obviously still confused. You understood it as circumambulate and then when YOU WERE FORCED to admit based on indisputable evidence from 2458, 5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, 7615 that it cannot mean circumambulate, you came up with "going about". Now it is back to square one again and your reverted back to circumambulate. This is fitting because that's what happens when you mindlessly circumambulate. As we see here, you don't go anywhere and you end up right back where you started. -)

no need for slandering...however if thats the best u can do...cool! -)

I don't have time to waste on slandering. Those are merely observations based on what you say.

from ayman on April 19, 2006, 055214 PM
Also, another consideration is the verb "yaqrabu". I think that its meaning needs to be more carefully studied. 7114 makes it clear that the word "muqaraboon" can be used to signify not merely "come near" but "being one of those with influence or one of the political decision makers". So a better understanding is that "al-masjid al-7aram" is made for all people but those who setup partners cannot have influence on it or be the decision makers about it. This would be consistent with the function of al-masjid al-7aram".

So to reiterate, both "al-bayt al-haram" and "al-masjid al-haram" were made for all people. However, being one of those who have influence on "al-masjid al-haram" should not be allowed for those who setup partners, that is all.

the problem perhaps is with either ur reading or ur comprehension or both....i think i should go at a pace at which u can understand..so i will try again...using emphasis now and then to make u understand better!

let me recall ur initial reply..which was posted before what u pasted above claiming to be ur initial response

ayman wrote
928. O you who had faith, those who set up partners are pollution so they do not come near the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden after this year of theirs. And if you fear neediness, The God will enrich you from His favor if He willed, indeed The God is knowledgeable, wise.

One possible understanding is that "after this year of theirs" in 928 indicates that those who setup partners were previously allowed to come near the institute of hearing and obeying the restriction ("al-masjid al-7aram&quot as per 2225.

as u can see u had stated that previously those who associate were allowed to come near masjidalharam..now take the meaning of yaqrubu which u proposed..as having influence..so it clearly follows that according to u previously those who associate were allowed to influence masjidalharam...so my question was why is it that those who associate had previously been allowed being near or influential to masjidalharam and later disallowed...i have repeated this question twice now and i hope the query is clear to u now!

If you knew what "al-masjid al-haram" is then you would know the answer. As I said before the institution of obeying the restriction implements obeying what The God restricted on us. Obviously, the people of the book who were already there before the great reading were given restrictions from The God to implement. However, they didn't manage the institution of obeying the restriction properly and hence used their influence to restrict what The God didn't restrict and to allow what The God restricted (6148, 1635). The God sends messenger to fix that (1635). So 928 simply states that those who setup partners (as in 6148 and 1635) should not be allowed to influence the institution of obeying the restriction from that point on (since now you have a message that restores the correct restriction).

I am pretty sure from your attitude so far that you are going to take the above and lazily criticise it without making any effort to provide your own view. You will not even tell us what you think "al-masjid al-haram" and "al-bayt al-haram" mean and you will not translate them. I asked you many times and you still haven't done it. So my observation (not slander) based on your attitude is that you are ignorant of what they mean and are too lazy to try to find out.

ayman wrote
Quote from ayman on April 19, 2006, 055214 PM
Also, another consideration is the verb "yaqrabu". I think that its meaning needs to be more carefully studied. 7114 makes it clear that the word "muqaraboon" can be used to signify not merely "come near" but "being one of those with influence or one of the political decision makers". So a better understanding is that "al-masjid al-7aram" is made for all people but those who setup partners cannot have influence on it or be the decision makers about it. This would be consistent with the function of al-masjid al-7aram".

So to reiterate, both "al-bayt al-haram" and "al-masjid al-haram" were made for all people. However, being one of those who have influence on "al-masjid al-haram" should not be allowed for those who setup partners, that is all.

so that is not all...as i tried to explain above! coming back to muqaraabun as in 7114...are u saying the magicians becoming muqarrabun to pharaoh would have meant that they would be able to influence his decisions?...that he would consult them before making or executing his decisions...or they would make him implement their suggestions?....or they would be of those who would set the laws alongside pharaoh...what do u imply by having influence on the political decision makers?

In a political context, think of "muqaraboon" as the "inner circle" of the leader. So all of the above can be implications of "muqaraboon". So it is influence in terms of having the leader make decisions and laws that are favorable to them. For an institution, "muqaraboon" would similarly be those who have great influence on it.

ayman wrote
Quote from ayman on April 19, 2006, 055214 PM
The message of The God are in His signs. The signs are both in the great reading and all around us. So those who don't believe in The God listen and see those signs everyday. You don't have to believe in anything to listen to The God's signs. It is up to The God to guide people or not after they listen.

everybody sees these signs which u speak of...so u have essentially stated nothing! the sun...the moon...these are from the ayats of god and u do not need to involve a hajj to listen or witness these signs...do u?...so when god talks 'ayatin bayyinatin' in the bayt it cannot be these signs as these...as u urself agree...are witnessed every second by everybody...and there is no need for an annual fair to listen to these signs!

The God tells us that those clear signs are the "maqam Ibrahim", i.e. the position/status of Ibrahim. If you knew what the position/status of Ibrahim then you would have known the answer. Obviously, you don't know what it is, otherwise you would have told us by now.

ayman wrote
As for Abraham, he was ordered to invite people WITH the "hajj" not TO the "hajj". The "hajj" is simply a tool to invite people. Everyone will come to the market that is setup in a place where there are no partners with The God because as stated in the great reading, the FIRST reason is to WITNESS BENEFITS.

atleast use technically sound lies if u want to distort the word of god...'adhinat' is not invite....perhaps 'inform/bring to attention'...perhaps 'put in the ear of'...so it says 'and put in the ears of the humankind/inform the humankind/bring to attention the humankind with/by the hajj'...i hope u will make a note of this as u have a habit of distorting quran and claiming the contrary!

also...this renders the rest of what u wrote as irrelevant as it was based on something which has been shown as being distortion of quran! -)

If you cared to check the great reading, then you would have seen that the word 'adhin' also means permit. So when you permit someone into your house or inform him to come to your house, you are essentially inviting him into your house. This is why the meaning doesn't change with using "inform" instead of "invite".

So you can also say "inform people with the market" if you prefer. Again, it is clear that the "hajj"/market is a tool not an end in itself.

i think v have seen so far who has a habit of slandering others and even distorting the words of quran! -)

Just observations. When you take your Sunni glasses off (this is where you got your "circumambulate" and mechanically repeating words from) then maybe you can see that those are not distortions. We can talk again then.

ayman wrote
This is why a more productive activity for you is to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean and maybe you will come to the same conclusion as me and save us both some time. If you don't come to the same conclusion then maybe you will come to a better conclusion and add value instead of endlessly arguing about the same point due to your inability to read my first response.

figure out that which has been presented to u thus far and then v will discuss productivity! and yes...read a little better...comprehend a bit better...both the quran and what i write...and stay away from slandering and distorting...both my words and the words of god!-)

This is just a lazy excuse in order not to make an effort to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean.

Peace,

Ayman

[thegod]

ok...i think i will cut out the chidin and be a bit more polite..i will try.. ;D

ayman wrote
You are again demonstrating your inability to read. In 7615, "yutaf" is in the passive. This means that it is not the cups coming together by themselves but are brought.

where do u find me talkin about cups comin together?.....i even gave u an example of handin over a cup to somebody...i did not talk about a cup walkin its way to somebody...did i ? so why are u brining up active and passive sans rhyme and reason? do stick to the topic without trying to lose it in trivialities!

that said...i will repeat cups brought together is not minglin...it is gatherin and like i asked..is not being brought together being 'jama'? easiest way out demonstrate ur meaning by translating 7615 using 'mingle with one another'!

ayman wrote
Instead of lazily criticizing and giving advice without doing it yourself, check a Thesaurus and you will see that "come together" is a synonym of "mingle".

lolz...dont mind...but did u look up that word? -S

let us first understand what a thesaurus is...a thesaurus is a collection of synonyms homonyms and other related words...2 words listed under the same heading of a thesaurus may or may not be interchangeable in all cases...so using a thesaurus requires discretion...i will give u an example of 'mingle'

mingle is to mix...to blend...to socialise...to interact...i mingled with the crowd i interacted with them...i blended with them...not merely came together...mingle has a different connotation!

however...check a thesauri and u will find cohabit having both copulate and mingle as 'synonyms'...but a user should know they are not...because a thesauri does not merely contain synonyms..it lists related words! now then copulate has cohabit as a synonym and cohabit has mingle as a synonym...so using ur understanding of synonyms and thesaurus tawaf would mean
copulation...who copulate at the annual fair...or cups and humans copulatin....i hope this makes u understand better -S

let us now understand synonym..2 words are synonyms if they convey the same meaning...however they may not necessarily be interchangeable....example knowledge and wisdom...a person of knowledge is not necessarily wise...knowledgeable can also be learned...u can say so and so is very learned...knows a lot of stuff...that does not necessarily imply wisdom! another example heavy and fat synonyms if i say...'i am quite heavy/fat'....but if talkin about machines thats a heavy machine...u cant say thats a fat machine!...point is synonyms are not necessarily interchangeable...hope this
helps a bit -)

ayman wrote
Given your attitude, I am not going to waste my time on educating you on what a Thesaurus is or how to use it.

never mind...i did that for us! and yes..do post the results for synomyms of 'mingle'....i would like to have a look at them!

ayman wrote
This is funny "I lied when I said that you understand 'tawaf' as circumambulate" but then in the next paragraph you say that you indeed understand it as circumambulate when applied to 2226.

laugh if it is funny...-S...then read..then try to understand..-)...yes...when applied to 2226...if u read what i wrote above u will understand that some words can be interchanged under specific conditions...go about the bayt under 2226 can be translated as circumambulate the bayt as it means the same thing...going about the bayt...were u not talkin about synonyms?...talk about double stanards...hmmm...lies...slanders...distortion...now double standards....cool! -)

ayman wrote
You are obviously still confused. You understood it as circumambulate and then when YOU WERE FORCED to admit based on indisputable evidence from 2458, 5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, 7615 that it cannot mean circumambulate, you came up with "going about". Now it is back to square one again and your reverted back to circumambulate. This is fitting because that's what happens when you mindlessly circumambulate. As we see here, you don't go anywhere and you end up right back where you started. -)

i have made clear that i understood 'tawaf' as going about...if u want to persist in ur slandering do so by all means..i am trying to explain to u in plain english the meaning of circumambulate...thesaurus...mingle...synonyms...but if u would rather live in the comfort of ur distortions...u are free to do so by all means...dont forget ur understanding of a thesaurus betrays u as advocatin copulation at annual fairs and between humans and cups! -)

ayman wrote
I don't have time to waste on slandering. Those are merely observations based on what you say.

not based on what i say...based on ur comprehension...but seems u really are not appreciating the difference between what i say (or quran says) and how u understand it..so u indeed are slandering...and ur credibility is at stake! -)

ayman wrote
The word "haram" means restriction. The word "masjid" means an institution of "sujud". As we saw above "sujud" primary meaning is obedience. So when we put all this together, "al-masjid al-haram" means the institution of obedience of the restriction.Maybe you don't know what "institution" means. When you institutionalize something this means that you implement it. Of course the
prophet and his followers were prevented by the rejecters from implementing the obedience of the restriction. What is restricted is given in 6151-153, among other passages.

hold on...haram is restriction alright...lets pass it till v have reasons to look it over...but masjid being an 'institution of obedience of restriction' is ur assumption...masjid is simply place of sujud....give reference from the quran which authorises u to include 'institution!

ayman wrote
If you knew what "al-masjid al-haram" is then you would know the answer. As I said before the institution of obeying the restriction implements obeying what The God restricted on us.Obviously, the people of the book who were already there before the great reading were given restrictions from The God to implement.However, they didn't manage the institution of obeying the restriction properly and hence used their influence to restrict what The God didn't restrict and to allow what The God restricted (6148, 1635).

The God sends messenger to fix that (1635). So 928 simply states that those who setup partners (as in 6148 and 1635) should not be allowed to influence the institution of obeying the restriction from that point on (since now you have a message that restores the correct restriction).

lets see! -)

ayman wrote
I am pretty sure from your attitude so far that you are going to take the above and lazily criticise it without making any effort to provide your own view. You will not even tell us what you think "al-masjid al-haram" and "al-bayt al-haram" mean and you will not translate them. I asked you many times and you still haven't done it. So my observation (not slander) based on your attitude is that you are ignorant of what they mean and are too lazy to try to find out.

chill...are u concerned about ur theory based on assumptions bein checked for reliability?...let us be done with checkin out ur understandin before movin on to mine....why rush into too many things at the same time?.....i dont post stuff spreadin my assumptions as words of god...those who do have to stand the verification process ;D

ayman wrote
In a political context, think of "muqaraboon" as the "inner circle" of the leader. So all of the above can be implications of "muqaraboon". So it is influence in terms of having the leader make decisions and laws that are favorable to them. For an institution, "muqaraboon" would similarly be those who have great influence on it.

v will get back to this when v will need to!...but u already know i have nothin to get back to...n then u hear them say they are not slanderin....lolz -)

ayman wrote
The God tells us that those clear signs are the "maqam Ibrahim", i.e. the position/status of Ibrahim. If you knew what the position/status of Ibrahim then you would have known the answer. Obviously, you don't know what it is, otherwise you would have told us by now.

obviously....lolz! and u say u dont work on assumptions! by the way...when i asked as to why would those who do not believe in abraham and his message heed him...u were talkin about signs of god bein there for all to see and that it does not require belief in god....when reminded u dont need an annual fair to see these signs u are talkin about maqamu ibrahim...so why would those who do not benefit from other signs of god benefit from this sign?

ayman wrote
If you cared to check the great reading, then you would have seen that the word 'adhin' also means permit. So when you permit someone into your house or inform him to come to your house, you are essentially inviting him into your house. This is why the meaning doesn't change with using "inform" instead of "invite".

ahan...when i tell u the same thing....that some meanings are interchangeable under some conitions u persist in ur slanderin...n u want for urself considerations which u deny unto others....hmmm!

ayman wrote
So you can also say "inform people with the market" if you prefer. Again, it is clear that the "hajj"/market is a tool not an end in itself.

not prefer...prefer is when u have a choice...invite is definitely beyond the scope of application....why dont u demonstrate the structure of this clear tool and tell me where these annual fairs take place?...where do u set up ur annual fair?...will u say this forum..??...how this fair is set up..the invitation cards...elaborate...but i think v can do without it for some time! ;D

ayman wrote
Just observations. When you take your Sunni glasses off (this is where you got your "circumambulate" and mechanically repeating words from) then maybe you can see that those are not distortions. We can talk again then.

3 lies in a single statement...from somebody who talks about hajj being annual fairs where people can copulate....lolz!

ayman wrote
This is just a lazy excuse in order not to make an effort to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean.

let us see u explain how u derive ur understanding of 'masjid' from the quran! ;D

peace -)

[thegod]

let us now understand synonym..2 words are synonyms if they convey the same meaning...however they may not necessarily be interchangeable....example knowledge and wisdom...a person of knowledge is not necessarily wise...knowledgeable can also be learned...u can say so and so is very learned...knows a lot of stuff...that does not necessarily imply wisdom! another example heavy and fat synonyms if i say...'i am quite heavy/fat'....but if talkin about machines thats a heavy machine...u cant say thats a fat machine!...point is synonyms are not necessarily interchangeable...hope this
helps a bit -)

thats better...that was inintentiol boldness! -S

ayman wrote
If you cared to check the great reading, then you would have seen that the word 'adhin' also means permit. So when you permit someone into your house or inform him to come to your house, you are essentially inviting him into your house. This is why the meaning doesn't change with using "inform" instead of "invite".

ahan...when i tell u the same thing....that some meanings are interchangeable under some conitions u persist in ur slanderin...n u want for urself considerations which u deny unto others....hmmm!

ayman wrote
So you can also say "inform people with the market" if you prefer. Again, it is clear that the "hajj"/market is a tool not an end in itself.

not prefer...prefer is when u have a choice...invite is definitely beyond the scope of application....why dont u demonstrate the structure of this clear tool and tell me where these annual fairs take place?...where do u set up ur annual fair?...will u say this forum..??...how is this fair set-up..the invitation cards...elaborate...but i think v can do without it for some time! ;D

ayman wrote
Just observations. When you take your Sunni glasses off (this is where you got your "circumambulate" and mechanically repeating words from) then maybe you can see that those are not distortions. We can talk again then.

3 lies in a single statement...from somebody who talks of hajj as annual fairs where people can copulate....lolz!

ayman wrote
This is just a lazy excuse in order not to make an effort to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean.

let us see u explain how u derive ur understanding of 'masjid' from the quran! ;D

bad invite -S

[ayman]

Peace,

ok...i think i will cut out the chidin and be a bit more polite..i will try.. ;D

Great.

where do u find me talkin about cups comin together?.....i even gave u an example of handin over a cup to somebody...i did not talk about a cup walkin its way to somebody...did i ? so why are u brining up active and passive sans rhyme and reason? do stick to the topic without trying to lose it in trivialities!

that said...i will repeat cups brought together is not minglin...it is gatherin and like i asked..is not being brought together being 'jama'? easiest way out demonstrate ur meaning by translating 7615 using 'mingle with one another'!

7615. And brought together for them are vessels of silver and crystal cups.

"Passed on them" could also fit but not what you conjectured earlier, which was "going about" or "circumnavigate".

let us first understand what a thesaurus is...a thesaurus is a collection of synonyms homonyms and other related words...2 words listed under the same heading of a thesaurus may or may not be interchangeable in all cases...so using a thesaurus requires discretion...i will give u an example of 'mingle'

mingle is to mix...to blend...to socialise...to interact...i mingled with the crowd i interacted with them...i blended with them...not merely came together...mingle has a different connotation!

however...check a thesauri and u will find cohabit having both copulate and mingle as 'synonyms'...but a user should know they are not...because a thesauri does not merely contain synonyms..it lists related words! now then copulate has cohabit as a synonym and cohabit has mingle as a synonym...so using ur understanding of synonyms and thesaurus tawaf would mean
copulation...who copulate at the annual fair...or cups and humans copulatin....i hope this makes u understand better -S

let us now understand synonym..2 words are synonyms if they convey the same meaning...however they may not necessarily be interchangeable....example knowledge and wisdom...a person of knowledge is not necessarily wise...knowledgeable can also be learned...u can say so and so is very learned...knows a lot of stuff...that does not necessarily imply wisdom! another example heavy and fat synonyms if i say...'i am quite heavy/fat'....but if talkin about machines thats a heavy machine...u cant say thats a fat machine!...point is synonyms are not necessarily interchangeable...hope this
helps a bit -)

It doesn't matter what Thesaurus you use, you cannot use "circumambulate" or "circumnavigate" or even "going about" in 2458, 5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, and 7615.

never mind...i did that for us! and yes..do post the results for synomyms of 'mingle'....i would like to have a look at them!

Mingle
Come together, intermingle.
Circulate, socialize.
Merge, mix, blend, combine, fuse, join.

laugh if it is funny...-S...then read..then try to understand..-)...yes...when applied to 2226...if u read what i wrote above u will understand that some words can be interchanged under specific conditions...go about the bayt under 2226 can be translated as circumambulate the bayt as it means the same thing...going about the bayt...were u not talkin about synonyms?...talk about double stanards...hmmm...lies...slanders...distortion...now double standards....cool! -)

One starts by understanding the context and then giving a meaning that best fits in the majority of occurrences. Since in the occurrences of the term, circumambulate doesn't really fit best, then the only reason for you to choose it over all other words is that can provide an excuse for the spinning that sectarians do in Mecca. This exposes that your objective is not to find the best meaning that has a common theme that fits in all the occurrences in order to understand what The God is telling us. Your objective is the find any excuse to justify what sectarians do in Mecca.

i have made clear that i understood 'tawaf' as going about...if u want to persist in ur slandering do so by all means..i am trying to explain to u in plain english the meaning of circumambulate...thesaurus...mingle...synonyms...but if u would rather live in the comfort of ur distortions...u are free to do so by all means...dont forget ur understanding of a thesaurus betrays u as advocatin copulation at annual fairs and between humans and cups! -)

As I said above, it doesn't matter what Thesaurus you use, you cannot use "circumambulate" or "circumnavigate" or even "going about" in 2458, 5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, and 7615.

If you have a better meaning that doesn't start from the preconception of justifying spinning around a stone then share it.

not based on what i say...based on ur comprehension...but seems u really are not appreciating the difference between what i say (or quran says) and how u understand it..so u indeed are slandering...and ur credibility is at stake! -)

This is what all sectarians say. They say that they follow Hadith based on what the great reading says about obeying the messenger. They commit many evils based on what they think the great reading says. This is because they read the great reading through their preconceptions. If you didn't see people in Mecca circumambulating you wouldn't have reached the conclusion that you did.

ayman wrote
The word "haram" means restriction. The word "masjid" means an institution of "sujud". As we saw above "sujud" primary meaning is obedience. So when we put all this together, "al-masjid al-haram" means the institution of obedience of the restriction.Maybe you don't know what "institution" means. When you institutionalize something this means that you implement it. Of course the
prophet and his followers were prevented by the rejecters from implementing the obedience of the restriction. What is restricted is given in 6151-153, among other passages.

hold on...haram is restriction alright...lets pass it till v have reasons to look it over...but masjid being an 'institution of obedience of restriction' is ur assumption...masjid is simply place of sujud....give reference from the quran which authorises u to include 'institution!

What does a physical place have anything to do with the restriction or what is said in 6151-153?

It is common sense that the floors, walls and ceilings of a physical mosque have nothing to do with any restriction. So the burden of proof is on you to bring any evidence from the great reading that shows that "masjid" is a physical place of "sujud". Moreover, you didn't tell us what 'sujud" means so it looks like you don't know what it means.

Again, you know very well that when people talk about "the court" or "government" they don't mean the physical building but they mean the institution. You know that it is an eloquent way to talk that assumes that both the listener and the talker are not superficial and merely concerned with the physical aspects but are concerned with communicating deeper ideas. You allow yourself to routinely use eloquent speech that has deeper meaning than the merely superficial physical meaning but you deny such ability to The God. Again, my advice to you is you should appreciate The God more.

ayman wrote
If you knew what "al-masjid al-haram" is then you would know the answer. As I said before the institution of obeying the restriction implements obeying what The God restricted on us. Obviously, the people of the book who were already there before the great reading were given restrictions from The God to implement. However, they didn't manage the institution of obeying the restriction properly and hence used their influence to restrict what The God didn't restrict and to allow what The God restricted (6148, 1635).

The God sends messenger to fix that (1635). So 928 simply states that those who setup partners (as in 6148 and 1635) should not be allowed to influence the institution of obeying the restriction from that point on (since now you have a message that restores the correct restriction).

lets see! -)

I haven't seen anything from you apart from your obsession with circumambulate.

ayman wrote
I am pretty sure from your attitude so far that you are going to take the above and lazily criticise it without making any effort to provide your own view. You will not even tell us what you think "al-masjid al-haram" and "al-bayt al-haram" mean and you will not translate them. I asked you many times and you still haven't done it. So my observation (not slander) based on your attitude is that you are ignorant of what they mean and are too lazy to try to find out.

chill...are u concerned about ur theory based on assumptions bein checked for reliability?...let us be done with checkin out ur understandin before movin on to mine....why rush into too many things at the same time?.....i dont post stuff spreadin my assumptions as words of god...those who do have to stand the verification process ;D

It doesn't look like you have anything that we can check.

ayman wrote
In a political context, think of "muqaraboon" as the "inner circle" of the leader. So all of the above can be implications of "muqaraboon". So it is influence in terms of having the leader make decisions and laws that are favorable to them. For an institution, "muqaraboon" would similarly be those who have great influence on it.

v will get back to this when v will need to!...but u already know i have nothin to get back to...n then u hear them say they are not slanderin....lolz -)

So prove me wrong by telling us what your interpretation is.

ayman wrote
The God tells us that those clear signs are the "maqam Ibrahim", i.e. the position/status of Ibrahim. If you knew what the position/status of Ibrahim then you would have known the answer. Obviously, you don't know what it is, otherwise you would have told us by now.

obviously....lolz! and u say u dont work on assumptions! by the way...when i asked as to why would those who do not believe in abraham and his message heed him...u were talkin about signs of god bein there for all to see and that it does not require belief in god....when reminded u dont need an annual fair to see these signs u are talkin about maqamu ibrahim...so why would those who do not benefit from other signs of god benefit from this sign?

Who said that they would necessarily benefit from the signs? All that is said is "whoever enters it (the house) is safe".

ayman wrote
If you cared to check the great reading, then you would have seen that the word 'adhin' also means permit. So when you permit someone into your house or inform him to come to your house, you are essentially inviting him into your house. This is why the meaning doesn't change with using "inform" instead of "invite".

ahan...when i tell u the same thing....that some meanings are interchangeable under some conitions u persist in ur slanderin...n u want for urself considerations which u deny unto others....hmmm!

But you didn't tell us anything about any conditions. You didn't tell us what you "circumambulate" around. You didn't tell us what purpose it has. You didn't tell us how the idea of "circumambulate" came to you from the great reading and not from your preconceptions because you watched sectarians do it.

not prefer...prefer is when u have a choice...invite is definitely beyond the scope of application....why dont u demonstrate the structure of this clear tool and tell me where these annual fairs take place?...where do u set up ur annual fair?...will u say this forum..??...how this fair is set up..the invitation cards...elaborate...but i think v can do without it for some time! ;D

I already told you where it takes place (from 2226) but you don't understand. You have to know the basics first. You don't know what "sujud" or "masjid" is and you refuse to take The God at his word when he tells us that the place is "DO NOT SETUP WITH ME ANYTHING", then when I ask you to share your understanding your refuse. How can I share with you any of the above when you don't understand the basics?

3 lies in a single statement...from somebody who talks about hajj being annual fairs where people can copulate....lolz!

Instead of imagining about copulation, try to focus on higher activities such as understanding the great reading and sharing your understanding with others.

ayman wrote
This is just a lazy excuse in order not to make an effort to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean.

let us see u explain how u derive ur understanding of 'masjid' from the quran! ;D

You can see it here

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm

It is not a perfect understanding but it is better than what is out there.

Only The God can have perfect comprehension of everything. We can only actively try to get to the best interpretation (54. This is why it is important to present better interpretations and not just be satisfied with passively making criticism based on preconceptions.

Peace,

Ayman

[thegod]

ayman wrote
Great.

yes ;D

ayman wrote
7615. And brought together for them are vessels of silver and crystal cups.

hey...no 'mingling' in there...hmmm...seems u have had a change of mind about copulation's synonym ;D

ayman wrote
"Passed on them" could also fit but not what you conjectured earlier, which was "going about" or "circumnavigate".

from "minglin" to "come together" to "brought together" to "passed on them".....which 1 is ur general understandin....and yes..."goin about" does fit..and it fits a lot better than copulation or minglin! -)

ayman wrote
It doesn't matter what Thesaurus you use, you cannot use "circumambulate" or "circumnavigate" or even "going about" in 2458, 5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, and 7615.

its not about which thesauri u use...rather about how to use it...and hey...no comments on ur copulation theory?? must be a bit uncomfy...i think! -) ...'going about' can be used...if u cannot see that...i can demostrate! -)

ayman wrote
Mingle
Come together, intermingle.
Circulate, socialize.
Merge, mix, blend, combine, fuse, join.

dont mind....but the source? no offence...but goin by ur level of comprehension u might have actually succeeded in unwillingly (or willingly) misinterpreting the source itself! -)

ayman wrote
One starts by understanding the context and then giving a meaning that best fits in the majority of occurrences. Since in the occurrences of the term, circumambulate doesn't really fit best, then the only reason for you to choose it over all other words is that can provide an excuse for the spinning that sectarians do in Mecca. This exposes that your objective is not to find the best meaning that has a common theme that fits in all the occurrences in order to understand what The God is telling us. Your objective is the find
any excuse to justify what sectarians do in Mecca.

as it is u are strugglin hard enough speakin for urself...dont bother to speak for others! -) by the way....i wonder what context therein prompted u to suggest copulation (accordin to ur understandin of thesaurus).....;D

ayman wrote
As I said above, it doesn't matter what Thesaurus you use, you cannot use "circumambulate" or "circumnavigate" or even "going about" in 2458, 5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, and 7615.

If you have a better meaning that doesn't start from the preconception of justifying spinning around a stone then share it.

get the meanin of 'goin about'...and this time around quote the sources! -) just to quote an example have u ever/never seen servers "goin about" the guests (at parties) servin them drinks and stuff?

and do u still stick to understanding hajj as an annual fair for copulation? if not give a better word or admit u did not know how to use a thesaurus...especially when u (thankfully) decided not to teach me its usage! -)

ayman wrote
This is what all sectarians say. They say that they follow Hadith based on what the great reading says about obeying the messenger. They commit many evils based on what they think the great reading says. This is because they read the great reading through their preconceptions. If you didn't see people in Mecca circumambulating you wouldn't have reached the conclusion that you did.

rather than tryin to hide embarrassment and resortin to baseless remarks workin upon improvin understandin...would not that be better?...why would somebody want to live the rest of his life in assumptions and lies? -)

it is a predominantly pantheist/atheist belief that everythin is symbolical...some (not all) buddhists and hindus (perhaps others) try to explain much in their (religious) scriptures as symbolic...so how much do u draw from them? -)

ayman wrote
What does a physical place have anything to do with the restriction or what is said in 6151-153?

seems u wont stop quotin the quran out of context....the context of those verse makes it clear that those who associate claimed to have made certain restrictions in accordance with god's revelations...so those verses tell what are the things that really are from the restrictions of god!

example certain people who distort the quran claim that god allows its believers to associate with it...to such people the answer would be
6151 ....That ye ascribe no thing as partner unto Him....

ayman wrote
It is common sense that the floors, walls and ceilings of a physical mosque have nothing to do with any restriction. So the burden of proof is on you to bring any evidence from the great reading that shows that "masjid" is a physical place of "sujud". Moreover, you didn't tell us what 'sujud" means so it looks like you don't know what it means.

so is it common sense that all u do is try to evade answerin...as is ur wont and v have seen this before! i do not write thesis founded upon assumptions...who do so have to provide the proof...if ur proof was that which u have written above its a glarin failure...so try again! -)

and yes...it does seem u are now thinkin twice...ur earlier 'u dont know' is replaced by 'looks like u dont know'....doesnt hurt to think before speakin...(i hope -S)...infact would have saved somebody the trouble of tryin to defend well-documented assumptions! -)

ayman wrote
Again, you know very well that when people talk about "the court" or "government" they don't mean the physical building but they mean the institution. You know that it is an eloquent way to talk that assumes that both the listener and the talker are not superficial and merely concerned with the physical aspects but are concerned with communicating deeper ideas. You allow yourself to routinely use eloquent speech that has deeper meaning than the merely superficial physical meaning but you deny such ability to The God.
Again, my advice to you is you should appreciate The God more.

yes thats a very good advice -)

however i think v agreed that ur oft-quoted 'the physical buildin masjidalzhar does not issue fatwas...people in it do' is a worthless example in this context to justify ur assumptions! but what it does imply is that the masjidalzhar which issues fatwa is the committee of a physical masjid alazhar...so to defend ur assumption u now have to find a physical masjid
alharam the committe of which has the power to issue fatwas!

also....u talked about masjidalharam as implementation of obedience of restrictions...however masjidalzhar (nor any court) does not implement the fatwas it gives...it just issues edicts and implementation is to left to the concerned authorities....so ur definition of masjidalharam as implementation of alharam runs into trouble as ur analogic masjidalazhar is not implementation of alazhar or any other thing! -)

and pick ur choice for masjidalharam is it 'institution of obedience of restriction/guild'....or 'implementation of obedience of restriction/act of instituting'....much of ur assumptions are henceforth goin to be dealt with the choice u make here! -)

ayman wrote
I haven't seen anything from you apart from your obsession with circumambulate.

how about gettin ur eyes checked? not spiritual...just physical...atleast for now ;D

ayman wrote
It doesn't look like you have anything that we can check.

ah..'looks like u dont have' rather than 'u dont have'...i see improvement...yes...ego needs time to be tamed! -) needs workin..slow but

steady! -)

ayman wrote
So prove me wrong by telling us what your interpretation is.

u mean again? cool.....v will get to this when v are done with masjid! -)

ayman wrote
Who said that they would necessarily benefit from the signs? All that is said is "whoever enters it (the house) is safe".

so answer this whoever enters it is 'safe'....how will they be made 'safe'? also since u have added house in brackets...show how u understand house with giving reference from the quran....is it an open field? or a forum? or something else? -)

ayman wrote
But you didn't tell us anything about any conditions. You didn't tell us what you "circumambulate" around. You didn't tell us what purpose it has. You didn't tell us how the idea of "circumambulate" came to you from the great reading and not from your preconceptions because you watched sectarians do it.

nor did u tell us how u got ur copulation theory! -S it is quite clear that ur copulation theory does not have any basis in quran....perhaps some carnival u cant get outta ur mind...they happen to be annual 'affairs'!

ayman wrote
I already told you where it takes place (from 2226) but you don't understand. You have to know the basics first. You don't know what "sujud" or "masjid" is and you refuse to take The God at his word when he tells us that the place is "DO NOT SETUP WITH ME ANYTHING", then when I ask you to share your understanding your refuse. How can I share with you any of the above when you don't understand the basics?

2226 Wa-ith bawwa/na li-ibraheema makana albayti an la tushrik bee shay-an watahhir baytiya liltta-ifeena waalqa-imeena waalrrukkaAAi alssujoodi

2226 and when bawwana for/to abraham makana (of) the house that not u associate with me aught and purtify my house for atafieena and alqaimeena and arrukaissujjud!

so why did u then stop at 'not shall u associate with me aught'...why did u leave out the rest of the sentence as 'location'? yes...why did u leave out the rest of the sentence from ur proposed location?

makan is a place...bayt is a place....even if u take mars as the place/makan for ur carnivals 'do not associate' is not a place....'mars' is not 'do not assocate'....empirical failure..so the makana cannot be 'do not associate with me'......no wonder u are so lost! -)

what the verse does say is and when we bawwana for abraham the makan of the house (said) that not shall u associate aught with me and purify my house for the taifeen and the qaimeen and the arrukuussujud!

i will know u will jump at there being no "said" in the verse

263 Wa-ith akhathna meethaqakum warafaAAna fawqakumu alttoora khuthoo ma ataynakum biquwwatin waothkuroo ma feehi laAAallakum tattaqoona

263 and when we akadha ur meethaqa and we rafaa above u the toor khudhoo what we ata u with quwwat and adhkuru what is in it...laallakum tattaqoon

263 and when we akadha ur meethaqa and we rafaa above u the toor (saying) khudhoo what we ata u with quwwat and adhkuru what is in it...laallakum tattaqoon

as v have repeatedly seen u distort the quran and then claim that others refuse to take the word of god...when in reality it is ur distortion that is refused...also quite clearly u say the word 'adhdhin' can be taken as 'invite' and u even persist in it rather than admittin that it was a blunder...so would u expect somebody who wilfully distorts the quran to be taken at his word? -)

ayman wrote
Instead of imagining about copulation, try to focus on higher activities such as understanding the great reading and sharing your understanding with others.

a bit uncomfy about the copulation theory?...cool...atleast there's hope -) understanding quran is one thing...to share assumptions without checkin its credibility and postin them as the lost understandin is another! -)

ayman wrote
You can see it here

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm

It is not a perfect understanding but it is better than what is out there.

without wantin to comment on that article...how do u know it is better than what is out there?...whatever is out there! -)

ayman wrote
Only The God can have perfect comprehension of everything. We can only actively try to get to the best interpretation (54. This is why it is important to present better interpretations and not just be satisfied with passively making criticism based on preconceptions.

important as it is to offer better interpretations...it is more important to offer them as suggestions rather than assertions...ur state can be understood by the fact that though u claim that u have an imperfect understandin (yet) when u talk u assert them as established facts! -)

peace -)

[unknownuser]

Hi thegod,

just to share something - check out/try in any of the ayah's where the word Almasjid Alharam accurs the following please " Undertaking / doing/ carrying out , of the forbidden or of the Haraam".

And you said "makan is a place...bayt is a place....even if u take mars as the place/makan for ur carnivals 'do not associate' is not a place....'mars' is not 'do not assocate'....empirical failure..so the makana cannot be 'do not associate with me'......no wonder u are so lost! -)"

To understand what is makaan according to its usage in the quran check out the following

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4400.0

Gods Blessings.

[thegod]

simple wrote

just to share something - check out/try in any of the ayah's where the word Almasjid Alharam accurs the following please " Undertaking / doing/ carrying out , of the forbidden or of the Haraam"

And you said "makan is a place...bayt is a place....even if u take mars as the place/makan for ur carnivals 'do not associate' is not a place....'mars' is not 'do not assocate'....empirical failure..so the makana cannot be 'do not associate with me'......no wonder u are so lost! -)"

To understand what is makaan according to its usage in the quran check out the following

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4400.0

hi! i have already talked about this.....still to brief u about it it is 'likeness makana likeness in the very least u have to have 2 similar ideas if not entities ayatan makana ayatin...evil makana good...get the drift?

the annual fair u are talkin about needs a place....be it in jerusalem or in las vegas or on this forum a place! 'do not associate with me' is not a place! words and ideas should be in harmony u can very well say 'let us live in harmony' but u will still need to live in a physical place!

u cannot live at a location called 'harmony'....but u can live at a physical place and live in a state of harmony in it! same is the case with 2226 monotheism is not a location...it is a state (not as in u s of a)...a belief! and like i asked why leave out the rest of the verse (..and purify my house for the attaifeen and alqaimeen and arrukuussujud) from ur proposed location?

anyway i have to leave...for an indefinite term.....maybe later...till then...-)