Conclusive proof: THE QUR'AAN IS THE WORD OF ALLAH
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Peace Magi,
Your post itself implies that you have not even read all the links I have posted let alone read and understand the message itself in detail. If you had done so, most of your questions and criticisms would already have been answered. I can just advise you to do something but I have no cure for intellectual laziness.
this is outright rude! And its the lamest argument in the book. Oh...you dont agre with me, so you cannot possible have read the links. HI jonny K number 2. I stand by all that i have said, and have seen nothing but cirkular arguments against any of it.
I can offer you the same advice as I offered to oneway. I am not trying to force my understanding on someone. Instead of criticizing my words, all I can advise you is to read and understand the qur'aan objectively with an open mind, while using your mind, reason, intellect, and knowledge, so you can discover its message.
i would belive that i have. and im doing just that. Im not critizising your words, but the arguments presented. I have other reasons for accepting the message.
Of course one should learn from the signs within and without and compare them with the revelations. I don't think Allah wants us to blindly follow everything.
If we wre, Abraham would be a terrible example. He rebeled against the consensus reality of his age, and FIGURED out what the name of the tune was.
But if you are already biased against it and have made up your mind without even trying to consider what it says and want to ridicule it, then all I can do is follow Allah's advice
Im not biased against it, im becomming biased against all relegion and scripture. The more i study, the more i realise that these old storys are just that...old storys. However, there is a point to them being reinterpretated over and over. There is a message behind the message, that i accept fully. WHen God speaks of the Quran, i dont belive it to be the physical book, but the message were told can be learned even on a remote island. THis is why the storys are so similar. because the Quran was always the same, but it was not always the same scripture, or excactly the same words or storys. Just similaritys, and some, 11 copys.
668 And if you encounter those who make fun of Our revelations, then turn away from them until they move on to a different topic; and if the devil lets you forget, then do not sit after remembering with the wicked people.
So, now were back to kiss hanks ass. youre not even adressing my points, and im hardly making fun of it. In fact, i dont find this funny at all, but pretty damn serious.
4140 And it has been sent down to you in the Scripture, that if you hear God's revelations being rejected and ridiculed in, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different subject; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell all together.
Im not questioning the revelation given in the scripture. Im questioning the scripture.
Then you go on to smack me in the face with a lot of verses, that does in no way fit the context of what i was doing. WEll thats your personal interpretation, and judging of me and my innermost.
2855 And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and Say "To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant."
right back at you.
peace
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peace magi,
Me "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"
lots of reverse swing, bouncers, leg cutters and inswinging yorkers in you post-would be interesting to see how it is tackled
Peace.
the usual, smack in the face with a truckload of verses reflecting somones subjective oppinion. Nothing that i cannot handle. However, i have no idea what you mean with what you wrote there
Peace
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Peace magi,
the usual, smack in the face with a truckload of verses reflecting somones subjective oppinion. Nothing that i cannot handle. However, i have no idea what you mean with what you wrote there lol
have you never seen the game of cricket ? reverse swing, bouncers, leg cutters and inswinging yorkers are very hard for a batsman to play wink
peace.
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peace
the quran is inspired by God. Inspired by his creation. But God didn't write or dictate verbally the quran. God doesn't speak in words, He speaks to us through this world.
I had an argument with my friend (a sunni). it went something like this...Peace
well, Allah didn't dictate the Quran to anyone, do you have any proofs for this dictation?
now, Allah simply told us that Jebril was the one who dictated it to Mohammad
Also the Quran never told us that Allah physically wrote the Quran up there, i guess the Quran was created by Allah using the word BE
salam
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Peace magi,
the usual, smack in the face with a truckload of verses reflecting somones subjective oppinion. Nothing that i cannot handle. However, i have no idea what you mean with what you wrote there lol
have you never seen the game of cricket ? reverse swing, bouncers, leg cutters and inswinging yorkers are very hard for a batsman to play wink
peace.
sory no i have never seen a game of cricket, in fact i thought a cricket was a small animal resembling a grasshopper or maybe they are the same?.
So what does it mean?
peace
edit
now, Allah simply told us the Jebril was the one who dictated it to MohammadI have heard this aswell, but it seems to be missing from the translations i have avaible. Where does the Quran state that Jibreel was the messenger to the messenger.
peace
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Peace,
I second the very articulate and constructive responses by Magi.
have you never seen the game of cricket ? reverse swing, bouncers, leg cutters and inswinging yorkers are very hard for a batsman to play
Yet the batsmen throws back sixers and fourers. P
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Peace Magi,
this is outright rude! And its the lamest argument in the book. Oh...you dont agre with me, so you cannot possible have read the links. HI jonny K number 2. I stand by all that i have said, and have seen nothing but cirkular arguments against any of it.
I am sorry if you think I was trying to be rude.
The reason I said that your post implied that you did not read the links is because the answers to some of your comments were in the links I posted and if you had read the articles in those links you would not have made those comments. Also it appeares from your post that you hastily read my post and then jotted down your comments without paying much attention to what the qur'aan actually says.
For example, one of your comments was
yes it does if you are intellectually honest. "Had it (the scripture) been from God, surely it would have contained much err"
THis is a logical fallacy on its own. Im pretty sure that whomever human put that in there, thought himself really clever. Unfortunally, he wasnt.
Where did the underlined sentence in your quote came from ? The qur'aan contains no such verse. If that is not carelessness then what is ?
This is what the actual verse from the qur'aan says
482 "Do they not consider the qur'aan with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)."
and this is what your post says
"Had it (the scripture) been from God, surely it would have contained much err"
The qur'aanic verse is saying "if it had been from ANYONE OTHER than God" and you are misquoting by saying "had it been from God". Is that not carelessness ? You misquote a verse and then say it is logical fallacy ? shock wow
This severely damages your credibility bro.
Furthermore, there is no logical fallacy in the actual verse either, and if you had bothered to read the actual article you would have read the explanation of how there is no logical fallacy, but I guess I have to baby feed you; this is what the article says
Some people band together the last two words of this verse Many (Kathirun) Contradictions (Ikhteelafun). Then they say see the Koran mentions the words Ikhteelafun Kathirun (Many Contradictions) and the verse says that if it came from other than God it would contain Ikhteelfun Kathirun (Many contradictions). This is a very smart move in trying to prove the Koran false but it?s not smart enough.
People who try to disprove the Koran by taking the last two words in conjunction are implying, in the mention of words, that if the Koran contains the words "Ikhteelafun Kathirun (many contradictions)," it came from other than God. The statement in the Koran is not saying that. It is saying that books from other than God can contain the words "Ikhteelafun Kathirun," but so also can a book from God. Thus they fall into the famous Fallacy of the Converse in logic. Rain means wet streets but wet streets do not necessarily mean rain. Similarly, the Koran did not say, "If it contains Ikhtelafun Kathirun (many contradictions) it came from other than God." It does not say that.
i would belive that i have. and im doing just that. Im not critizising your words, but the arguments presented. I have other reasons for accepting the message.
What are your reasons for accepting the message ?
If we wre, Abraham would be a terrible example. He rebeled against the consensus reality of his age, and FIGURED out what the name of the tune was.
I agree.
But are you forgetting that Abraham was also sent a book by Allah ?
8719 The scripts of Abraham and Moses.
384 Say "We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord.
Im not questioning the revelation given in the scripture. Im questioning the scripture.
The revelations in the scripture form the scripture. If you question the scripture then you are questioning the revelations too.
Im not biased against it, im becomming biased against all relegion and scripture. The more i study, the more i realise that these old storys are just that...old storys. However, there is a point to them being reinterpretated over and over. There is a message behind the message, that i accept fully. WHen God speaks of the Quran, i dont belive it to be the physical book, but the message were told can be learned even on a remote island. THis is why the storys are so similar. because the Quran was always the same, but it was not always the same scripture, or excactly the same words or storys. Just similaritys, and some, 11 copys.
So you are biased against scripture which includes the 114 chapters which people call the qur'aan.
Let me ask you a direct question
Do you DENY or REJECT that the revelations/verses in the 114 chapter scripture known as the qur'aan are from Allah ?
Then you go on to smack me in the face with a lot of verses, that does in no way fit the context of what i was doing. WEll thats your personal interpretation, and judging of me and my innermost.
I am sorry if you thought I was judging you. You are falsely accusing me of something that I have not done. Are you not WRONGLY JUDGING ME by saying that I judged you when I did not judge you ?
I am not judging you bro. You saying that I am judging you itself shows that you really did not pay attention to what I said. If that is not carelessness then what is ?
This is what I said
But if you are already biased against it and have made up your mind without even trying to consider what it says and want to ridicule it, then all I can do is follow Allah's advice
Did you overlook the IF in my statement ? The IF makes it a conditional statement, like in a computer program (if........then......).
When Mary says "IF John tells a lie then John is a liar", does not mean that Mary is calling John a liar or judging John. It would be a conditional statement, not an opinion about someone or judgment of someone.
If you cannot understand such simple logic in English language then that severely damages your credibility when you make so called "logical" comments about anything.
So, now were back to kiss hanks ass. youre not even adressing my points, and im hardly making fun of it. In fact, i dont find this funny at all, but pretty damn serious.
Ok let's address your post
look at the story of kiss hanks ass in red. Because one of the pieces of evidence according to you is something the book itself says.
I did address this comment already
Of course one should learn from the signs within and without and compare them with the revelations. I don't think Allah wants us to blindly follow everything.
Allah does not want us to believe in his revelations blindly but recommends to think and use our mind and reason and knowledge and to contemplate on the signs within and without to understand and believe His revelations. The scientific facts evidence is an example of that. The literary excellence evidence is also an external evidence; how can we observe the literary excellence of the qur'aan without comparing it to other books in the same language ?
Any sincere person, after reading the qur'aan, and using his mind, reason, knowledge, and contemplation on the signs within and without, can see that it is from Allah.
Good question, how come noone has with the Bible, the Verda, The Taurat or the cunaiform of sumer where most of the storys are planked from 11?
I guess if noone claims authorship, it must be from God if it say so itself. This is not logic, and i really hope that you can see that aswell.
The who do you think authored the qur'aan ?
great, more internal evidence. (the book says x, so its true). I fact, how about all the manuscripts found apparently associated with earlyer copys of the book? Im not bying into this one, it cannot be confirmed in any way that doesnt require blind faith. and i know that God doesnt require blind faith.
It is not internal evidence. The preservation of the original message can only be determined by comparing a present copy of the qur'aan with the most ancient manuscript of the qur'aan and determining if THE MESSAGE (not the actual word) is the same in both manuscripts. How is that an internal evidence and where did I say that all the words were preserved ? All this is damaging your credibility bro !
My post clearly talked about THE MESSAGE being preserved, not each word
One of the miraculous aspects of the qur'aan is that its message has not been corrupted at all in 1400 years and has been preserved in the original language
huh? how do you think? Why wansnt it given to a brit? why are all these relegions and scriptures comming from the same place. are we to understand that the semites are especially developed, since they get all the scriptures and prophets, or may there be another explanation for the use of common language.
Again you completely missed what my point was. Is that not carelessness ?
My point was not that the qur'aan being in Arabic language makes it miraculous. My point was that the qur'aan was revealed in THE LANGUAGE OF THE COMMON PEOPLE which at that time was a recently developing language and not THE LANGUAGE OF THE ELITE IN POWER. My point had nothing to do with what the actual language was.
this is 100 percent subjective. 100%. Its evidence of nothing as peoples taste in verse and rhyme differs a lot. There altso several arab poets, who doesnt think high of it, and think its pretty badly versed and put together.
AN ABSOLUTE MAJORITY of the people who know Arabic language well attest to the literary excellence and eloquence of the qur'aan. Only a minority of the people who know the Arabic language well don't think highly of it.
so the details of the universe is in no way uinique to the Quran. In fact, it is anything but unique to the Quran as a scripture. Go and read the verdas. With a little fancyfull translation, boom...you have a miracle right there talking about atoms, and nucleus etc...
You keep missing my points bro. Is that not just hastily reading my article without paying much attention to what was being said ?
My point is not that the details of the universe are unique to the qur'aan. My point is that the qur'aan mentions a lot of scientific facts which were discovered more than a thousand years later, and NONE OF THE SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR'AAN HAVE BEEN PROVEN TO BE INCORRECT OR HAVE CONTRADICTED THE KNOWN PROVEN SCIENTIFIC FACTS.
Get it ?
but there is no way for us to confirm this, other than reading it in the book itself.
Yes there is a way for us to confirm the preservation of the message of the qur'aan, other than the internal evidence, as I already explained above. All you need is to compare any copy of the qur'aan with the most ancient copies.
i disagree, and is again very subjective not anything empirical that could go for evidence for anything.
Your disagreeing does not change anything. Why don't you start a thread showing us all the contradictions in the qur'aan ? Such threads and attempts have been made by thousands of people which have always been refuted thereby showing the lack of a single contradiction in the qur'aan.
at the lowest point of the earth yes. UNfortunally, this has not happened yet. Rome is still in control of the dead sea area, its just not through politics any more. But banking and the united states! (rome had capitoline hill, US have capitol hill, Rome worshipped columbia, US is lead FROM columbia etc etc)
302-4 talks about the defeat of the Romans in a few more years after the revelation of those verses, which did happen as documented by all the historical records.
the wonderfull thing about weakly written prophecy is that it can mean anything to anybody. During WWii boths sides propagated against eachother with the very same biblical verses and nostradamus yadayada.
To talk about this as divine evidence is moronic. As it rely 100% on subjective interpretation of a text and situation.Not all the prophecies mentioned in the qur'aan are just a subjective interpretation of the text. There are prophecies in the qur'aan based on objective interpretation of the text too.
wich is a weak challenge, as there are no rules as to how to do it. There is no judge. Al there is, is a book saying nobody can make anything like it. I have seen many chapters written by poets to take on this test. I cannot tell the difference, and the arguement against them is tadaaa "the book says that you cant, so you cant". who is to judge? surely The God is more clever than this? making challenges noone can confirm won or not.
Allah will be the judge on the Last Day. Even according to the people well versed in Arabic language, many have tried to write chapters similar to the qur'aanic chapters and have failed. Anyway, be patient; Allah will judge soon.
i dont know where you get the numers that you use for your statistics, but they seem dubious to me at best. I dont think it is by chance either. But by design. The question is.,..whoms
Ok then who do you think authored the qur'aan ?
No human being is capable of authoring a book with so many different amazing aspects, without making a single error or contradiction.
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peace tanveermd,
My point is not that the details of the universe are unique to the qur'aan. My point is that the qur'aan mentions a lot of scientific facts which were discovered more than a thousand years later, and NONE OF THE SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR'AAN HAVE BEEN PROVEN TO BE INCORRECT OR HAVE CONTRADICTED THE KNOWN PROVEN SCIENTIFIC FACTS.
Bro, see how the scholars of the past viewed/interpreted these scientific fact
IBN KHATIR--TAFSIR.
The Power of Allah and His Signs in the Heavens and on Earth
To those who ponder, and look repeatedly at the dazzling signs and wonders that are to be seen in the creation, Allah mentions His creation of the heavens, with their immense height, and both the fixed and moving heavenly bodies with which He has adorned it. Here, Mujahid and Qatadah said that Buruj refers to the heavenly bodies. (I say) This is like the Ayah(Blessed be He Who has placed the big stars in the heavens.)
Atiyah Al-Awfi said "Buruj here refers to sentinel fortresses.'' He made the "shooting stars'' to guard it against the evil devils who try to listen to information conveyed at the highest heights. If any devil breaches it and advances hoping to listen, a clear "shooting star'' comes to him and destroys him. He may already have passed on whatever he heard before the fire hit him, to another devil below him; the latter will then take it to his friends , as is stated in the Sahih. Explaining this Ayah, Al-Bukhari reported from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said? ?
(When Allah decrees any matter in heaven, the angels beat their wings in submission to His Word, a chain on a smooth rock.'') (
Ali and other subnarrators said, "The sound reaches them.'') "When the fright leaves their (angels') hearts, they (angels) are askedWhat did your Lord say' They respond "The truth. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.' So those who hope to hear something listen, and they are standing one above the other.'' Sufyan described them with a gesture, spreading the fingers of his right hand and holding it in such a way that the fingers were above one another. "Sometimes the flaming fire hits one of these listeners before he is able to convey what he has heard to the one who is beneath him, and he is burned up, or sometimes the fire does not hit him until he has pit on to the one beneath him, so he brings it to the earth.'' Perhaps Sufyan said "...until it reaches the earth and he puts it into the mouth of the sorcerer or fortune-teller, so that after telling a hundred lies he gets something right, and the people say, `Did he not tell us that on such and such a day such and such would happen, and we found it to be the truth among the statements which were heard from heaven.''' Then Allah mentions His creation of the earth and how He spread it out, and the firm mountains, valleys, lands and sands that he has placed in it, and the plants and fruits that He causes to grow in their appropriate locations.The Earth was created before Heaven
Mujahid commented on Allah's statement,
(He it is Who created for you all that is on earth) "Allah created the earth before heaven, and when He created the earth, smoke burst out of it. This is why Allah said,
(Then He Istawa ila (turned towards) the heaven when it was smoke.) (4111)
(And made them seven heavens) means, one above the other, while the
seven earths' means, one below the other.'' This Ayah testifies to the fact that the earth was created before heaven, as Allah has indicated in the Ayat in Surat As-Sajdah. Spreading the Earth out after the Heavens were created Sahih Al-Bukhari records that when IbnAbbas was question about this matter, he said that the earth was created before heaven, and the earth was spread out only after the creation of the heaven. Several Tafsir scholars of old and recent times also said similarly, as we have elaborated on in the Tafsir of Surat An-Nazi`at (chapter 79). The result of that discussion is that the word Daha (translated above as "spread'') is mentioned and explained in Allah's statement,(And the earth, after that, He spread it out. And brought forth therefrom its water and its pasture. And the mountains He has fixed firmly.) (7930-32)
Therefore, Daha means that the earth's treasures were brought to its surface after finishing the job of creating whatever will reside on earth and heaven. When the earth became Daha, the water burst out to its surface and the various types, colors, shapes and kinds of plants grew. The stars started rotating along with the planets that rotate around them. And Allah knows best.
http//www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=10803
Peace.
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Peace all,
IBN KHATIR--TAFSIR.
The Power of Allah and His Signs in the Heavens and on Earth
To those who ponder, and look repeatedly at the dazzling signs and wonders that are to be seen in the creation, Allah mentions His creation of the heavens, with their immense height, and both the fixed and moving heavenly bodies with which He has adorned it. Here, Mujahid and Qatadah said that Buruj refers to the heavenly bodies. (I say) This is like the Ayah(Blessed be He Who has placed the big stars in the heavens.)
Atiyah Al-Awfi said "Buruj here refers to sentinel fortresses.'' He made the "shooting stars'' to guard it against the evil devils who try to listen to information conveyed at the highest heights. If any devil breaches it and advances hoping to listen, a clear "shooting star'' comes to him and destroys him. He may already have passed on whatever he heard before the fire hit him, to another devil below him; the latter will then take it to his friends , as is stated in the Sahih. Explaining this Ayah, Al-Bukhari reported from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said? ?
(When Allah decrees any matter in heaven, the angels beat their wings in submission to His Word, a chain on a smooth rock.'') (
Ali and other subnarrators said, "The sound reaches them.'') "When the fright leaves their (angels') hearts, they (angels) are askedWhat did your Lord say' They respond "The truth. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.' So those who hope to hear something listen, and they are standing one above the other.'' Sufyan described them with a gesture, spreading the fingers of his right hand and holding it in such a way that the fingers were above one another. "Sometimes the flaming fire hits one of these listeners before he is able to convey what he has heard to the one who is beneath him, and he is burned up, or sometimes the fire does not hit him until he has pit on to the one beneath him, so he brings it to the earth.'' Perhaps Sufyan said "...until it reaches the earth and he puts it into the mouth of the sorcerer or fortune-teller, so that after telling a hundred lies he gets something right, and the people say, `Did he not tell us that on such and such a day such and such would happen, and we found it to be the truth among the statements which were heard from heaven.''' Then Allah mentions His creation of the earth and how He spread it out, and the firm mountains, valleys, lands and sands that he has placed in it, and the plants and fruits that He causes to grow in their appropriate locations.The Earth was created before Heaven
Mujahid commented on Allah's statement,
(He it is Who created for you all that is on earth) "Allah created the earth before heaven, and when He created the earth, smoke burst out of it. This is why Allah said,
(Then He Istawa ila (turned towards) the heaven when it was smoke.) (4111)
(And made them seven heavens) means, one above the other, while the
seven earths' means, one below the other.'' This Ayah testifies to the fact that the earth was created before heaven, as Allah has indicated in the Ayat in Surat As-Sajdah. Spreading the Earth out after the Heavens were created Sahih Al-Bukhari records that when IbnAbbas was question about this matter, he said that the earth was created before heaven, and the earth was spread out only after the creation of the heaven. Several Tafsir scholars of old and recent times also said similarly, as we have elaborated on in the Tafsir of Surat An-Nazi`at (chapter 79). The result of that discussion is that the word Daha (translated above as "spread'') is mentioned and explained in Allah's statement,(And the earth, after that, He spread it out. And brought forth therefrom its water and its pasture. And the mountains He has fixed firmly.) (7930-32)
Therefore, Daha means that the earth's treasures were brought to its surface after finishing the job of creating whatever will reside on earth and heaven. When the earth became Daha, the water burst out to its surface and the various types, colors, shapes and kinds of plants grew. The stars started rotating along with the planets that rotate around them. And Allah knows best.
We cannot rely on unverifiable hearsays/rumors/conjectures/fabrications for the understanding of the truth. The correct understanding of the meaning of the relevant verses in this scientific matter should come from other qur'aanic verses, the proven scientific facts and by using our own minds, reason, and knowledge. One does not need any imams, or scholars of islam to understand the word of Allah. It is Allah who explains his signs through his signs and our minds, reason, and knowledge.
Following is my research on the word "daha"
According to Lane Lexicon the following are some of the definitions given for "daha" and derivatives
DAHA spread, spread out, spread forth, EXPANDED, extended
Usage God made the earth wide or ample; also said of an ostrich, he expanded or made wide with his foot or leg, the place where he was about to deposit his eggs, making cavities in the ground like those of bellies; said of a man, he spread, and made plain, even, or smooth; also, he threw or cast, and impelled, PROPELLED, or REMOVED FROM ITS PLACE, a stone with his hand;
DAHAHA He COMPRESSED her
DAHA AL-BATN The belly was or became large and hanging down; it became SWOLLEN or INFLATED, or big, and hung down, by reason of fatness or disease.
INDAHA it (belly) became wide or DISTENDED.
The meanings in relation to earth in the qur'aan could be that it was made swollen, inflated, or distended, and also could be that the earth was propelled, removed from its place, like a stone thrown by the hand. So "daha" in relation to earth could be referring either to the shape of the earth (like that of a distended, swollen, inflated belly, hung down, or like that of the cavities in ground, shaped like bellies, dug by ostriches to lay their eggs, both of which imply it not being a perfect circle) or it could be referring to its elliptical orbit (like the trajectory of a stone propelled by throwing it by one's hand).
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I am sorry if you think I was trying to be rude.
no harm done, dont worry. Im just telling you my feeling.
The reason I said that your post implied that you did not read the links is because the answers to some of your comments were in the links I posted and if you had read the articles in those links you would not have made those comments. Also it appeares from your post that you hastily read my post and then jotted down your comments without paying much attention to what the qur'aan actually says.
I have read the arguements, and they are all running in circles. The book is right because the book says so. THis is ironically enough against the very attitude of the scripture.
For example, one of your comments was
yes it does if you are intellectually honest. "Had it (the scripture) been from God, surely it would have contained much err"
THis is a logical fallacy on its own. Im pretty sure that whomever human put that in there, thought himself really clever. Unfortunally, he wasnt.
Where did the underlined sentence in your quote came from ? The qur'aan contains no such verse. If that is not carelessness then what is ?
This is what the actual verse from the qur'aan says
482 "Do they not consider the qur'aan with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)."
and this is what your post says
"Had it (the scripture) been from God, surely it would have contained much err"
The qur'aanic verse is saying "if it had been from ANYONE OTHER than God" and you are misquoting by saying "had it been from God". Is that not carelessness ? You misquote a verse and then say it is logical fallacy ? shock wow
This severely damages your credibility bro.Ofcourse its a misquote. and the logical fallacy is the one you just posted. Thank for correcting me, while at the same time not understanding at all what the fallacy is.
It damages my creditability that im making a mistake while typing? You just posted the right (and at the same time wrong) verse. The problem im adressing is in the correct version obviously.Furthermore, there is no logical fallacy in the actual verse either, and if you had bothered to read the actual article you would have read the explanation of how there is no logical fallacy, but I guess I have to baby feed you; this is what the article says
Some people band together the last two words of this verse Many (Kathirun) Contradictions (Ikhteelafun). Then they say see the Koran mentions the words Ikhteelafun Kathirun (Many Contradictions) and the verse says that if it came from other than God it would contain Ikhteelfun Kathirun (Many contradictions). This is a very smart move in trying to prove the Koran false but it?s not smart enough.
People who try to disprove the Koran by taking the last two words in conjunction are implying, in the mention of words, that if the Koran contains the words "Ikhteelafun Kathirun (many contradictions)," it came from other than God. The statement in the Koran is not saying that. It is saying that books from other than God can contain the words "Ikhteelafun Kathirun," but so also can a book from God. Thus they fall into the famous Fallacy of the Converse in logic. Rain means wet streets but wet streets do not necessarily mean rain. Similarly, the Koran did not say, "If it contains Ikhtelafun Kathirun (many contradictions) it came from other than God." It does not say that.
no i dont band together any words. This is another circular arguement, and the author is rude enough to tell us why we think is a fallacy. No, you see, the REAL problem is that "if scriptures that contains no erros is from God, then surely God is sending us a lot of scipture i would never have suspected to be from God like the phone books, refference works etc. And to say this verse is not about just any scripture is pure speculation. that is not what it says. Is says, had the Quran been from other than God, there would be error in it. So, messages without error is from God.
and it is not valid to use the wet streets analogy as it has no relevance to what were talking about and can be confirmed by mere observasion. This "challenge" cant be confirmed by mere observation and we have to apply the rules of human logic. It is a basic principal of logic, that a=a at any given time. So if a=a then a=a is true aswell.
What are your reasons for accepting the message ?
the signs all around me. The fact that im meeting people who never knew they where muslims. I mean, i talk to so many people who are purely monotheistic but without relegion. What is right and what is wrong is clear to them obviously, and not a single one of them ever opened a relegious book. If thats not evidence of the Quran being a message alive all around us for anyone to tune into, not even fire from the sky could make a convincing point. I observe and see logic all around me, wich clearly suggest and prove that there is a designer. When i started to honestly search for this designer and talk to it, i started to get understandings of things around me i never had before, altso about the scriptures. It has been my comforter in times of distress as a close freind, and it has been my punisher when im bad. I often see clearly afterwards what happened, why and how i got bitchslapped for it. There are a great many things i observe, and can reason my way to, that are to be found in the scripture. There are verses and whole passages in the scripture that touch my heart to the point of crying in humility to the truth presented. And there are verses that does aboslutely nothing but confuse and present illogical blind faith thinking, and illogical "evidence".
I agree.
But are you forgetting that Abraham was also sent a book by Allah ?
NO im not, but as i see it, he didnt get the book and figured it out. He figured it out and got the book. there is one hell of a difference between those to brother.
The revelations in the scripture form the scripture. If you question the scripture then you are questioning the revelations too.
Where have i heard this before. yes...if you question/reject hadeeth youre rejecting the Quran. I dont think the Quran is a book. It is the name of the revelation all prophets and messengers got, but not all their books was called Quran. IT is a revelation that ANYONE can obtain if they truely want to, anywhere, anytime. Observation alone should tell you this.
So you are biased against scripture which includes the 114 chapters which people call the qur'aan.
obiously I am. But to the point where i allow myself to question things that are nonsensical, evidence that are etc. Not where i reject the message to be learned. Layth said once "Even if they removed half the verses, the message of God would still shine through".
We have no evidence that this has not happened early on, or that half of it was added. However, i agree. Nobody can tamper with the real message, because its not a book. The book is a way, not THE way.
Do you DENY or REJECT that the revelations/verses in the 114 chapter scripture known as the qur'aan are from Allah ?
word for word yes. in essence, no not at all.
I am sorry if you thought I was judging you. You are falsely accusing me of something that I have not done. Are you not WRONGLY JUDGING ME by saying that I judged you when I did not judge you ?
merely by posting verses that you interpretate to be relevant towards my attitide. Something that i absolutely abhor, because what does it show? nothing but your interpretation thrown on me.
This is what I said
But if you are already biased against it and have made up your mind without even trying to consider what it says and want to ridicule it, then all I can do is follow Allah's advice
but that is not what i reacted upon. So you saying;
If you cannot understand such simple logic in English language then that severely damages your credibility when you make so called "logical" comments about anything.
would infact be another rudeness on your behalf as you didnt even understand what i was reacting upon, even tho i said it outloud to another poster 2 posts down. you are trying assasinate my character here. You have 2 times now talked about me lacking creditability without giving proper sensible reasons. That i misquote, does not make me discredited, why would it? I think anyone here but you, figured what verse i was reffering to.
Allah does not want us to believe in his revelations blindly but recommends to think and use our mind and reason and knowledge and to contemplate on the signs within and without to understand and believe His revelations. The scientific facts evidence is an example of that. The literary excellence evidence is also an external evidence; how can we observe the literary excellence of the qur'aan without comparing it to other books in the same language ?
many have and several is not impressed. The verda is some 4000 years older than the Quran and contains pretty much the same astrological ideas. alltho formulated in a different way. embryo develpment etc. All things that can easily be interpretated out of the text. The thing is, God is not giving us the technical side of an embryo, what we can do is see that the details given resemble the process somewhat. But i would claim that this could be found out without God. The western world did by mere observation, why would people back then have been different. Because they were stupid ? I find that hard to belive when i see what they left behind, including brain surgery.
Any sincere person, after reading the qur'aan, and using his mind, reason, knowledge, and contemplation on the signs within and without, can see that it is from Allah.
So, by saying i doubt the scipture to be from God word for word, im not sincere in my search or study? That i chose to surrender to God fully by merely observing his works is wrong? I can clearly see the message being from God. And i can easily see how men has tampered with the scipture aswell. But due to THEIR lack of understanding, they can never hurt, harm or change the message to the sincere.
The who do you think authored the qur'aan ?
I dont know. But not knowing is not evidence. I would say honorable scribes, people of profound spiritual insight, including a man, we call our prophet.
It is not internal evidence. The preservation of the original message can only be determined by comparing a present copy of the qur'aan with the most ancient manuscript of the qur'aan and determining if THE MESSAGE (not the actual word) is the same in both manuscripts. How is that an internal evidence and where did I say that all the words were preserved ? All this is damaging your credibility bro !
How old is the first copy we have access to? THe very first one? If we dont have that, we dont know if copy number two is excactly the same. we in fact, do not even know that the message is. this rely on pure faith alone.
My post clearly talked about THE MESSAGE being preserved, not each word
ok, then we agree. no need to debate any further then.
Again you completely missed what my point was. Is that not carelessness ?
My point was not that the qur'aan being in Arabic language makes it miraculous. My point was that the qur'aan was revealed in THE LANGUAGE OF THE COMMON PEOPLE which at that time was a recently developing language and not THE LANGUAGE OF THE ELITE IN POWER. My point had nothing to do with what the actual language was.
youre abviously missing my points. Im wondering about what i told you. As far as the elite language. where on earth did you adapt to this idea?
I know the vatican used latin, but its not very liekyl that Jesus spoke it, is it? The jews, still speak a branch of canaan/pheonecia, wich was the common tongue, today its called hebrew.AN ABSOLUTE MAJORITY of the people who know Arabic language well attest to the literary excellence and eloquence of the qur'aan. Only a minority of the people who know the Arabic language well don't think highly of it.
And we do know from the scripture that the majority is always right. This is subjective and all your doing is running circles now.
You keep missing my points bro. Is that not just hastily reading my article without paying much attention to what was being said ?
likewise, because
My point is not that the details of the universe are unique to the qur'aan. My point is that the qur'aan mentions a lot of scientific facts which were discovered more than a thousand years later, and NONE OF THE SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR'AAN HAVE BEEN PROVEN TO BE INCORRECT OR HAVE CONTRADICTED THE KNOWN PROVEN SCIENTIFIC FACTS.
well that is swell. my point however was that many of these facts was in fact NOT discovered 1000's of years later, but where allready knowledge in circulation. Even tribes in Africa knew that the earth was round, and the sun was a star in the middle of several planets cirkeling it. The arabs however thought there were only 7 planets. (7 heavens?). In relegious terminology, heavens often reffered to the visible universe and the things in it observable, like 7 planets.
Get it ?
I did the first time, now did you get me?
Yes there is a way for us to confirm the preservation of the message of the qur'aan, other than the internal evidence, as I already explained above. All you need is to compare any copy of the qur'aan with the most ancient copies.
and i explained why that is a fallacy, so now what?
Your disagreeing does not change anything.
nor does your personal interpretation. NOmatter how many might share it.
Why don't you start a thread showing us all the contradictions in the qur'aan ? Such threads and attempts have been made by thousands of people which have always been refuted thereby showing the lack of a single contradiction in the qur'aan.
that is simply not true. it always decend into circular arguments and wordly nitpickings. The great thing about arabic, is that most things can mean just about anything you want to, given the nature of the language. So, all of this rely heavily on interpretation from the individual.
e.g
are we to cut of hands, or mark hands, or remove from hands? Why is this clear arabic speak so hard to understand!302-4 talks about the defeat of the Romans in a few more years after the revelation of those verses, which did happen as documented by all the historical records.
can you prove this? that it happened a few years after the revelation of that verse (and thus discrediting aymans idea of where the scripture originated). Here is a prediction. Usa is going to win the war in afghanistan in a few more years. that is what i said when they attacked. am i a prophet now?
Not all the prophecies mentioned in the qur'aan are just a subjective interpretation of the text. There are prophecies in the qur'aan based on objective interpretation of the text too.
Like what, because the one above is not impressive at all. Anyone with an eye for politics can pretty much predict "the future" by looking at the now.
That mohammads uncle goes to hell, is not really a prophecy either.
1-I havent been to hell so i dont know if he is there, thus it is an ad hoc prophecy.
2.Here is my prophecy. Gerorge Bush, dick cheney, and wolfowitzh will end up in hell because they will never convert to Islam.Allah will be the judge on the Last Day
Now look at what youre doing, youre bending faith around an augre.
Allah will be the judge on the last day. i agree. However, then you progress to say.Even according to the people well versed in Arabic language, many have tried to write chapters similar to the qur'aanic chapters and have failed.
So judgement day has been? how do you know they have failed? What good as an evidence is it to us here then, if the point is to realise the truth? You can try, but i wont tell you the answer untill its too late....aha!? o__0
Ok then who do you think authored the qur'aan ?
its still a good question.
No human being is capable of authoring a book with so many different amazing aspects, without making a single error or contradiction.
http//www.mathleague.com/help/geometry/IMG00087.gif
Im happy you are fascinated by the book, so am I. BUt the above is your personal feeling about it, sold of as fact. And this would make you the;
http//www.perseus.tufts.edu/GreekScience/Students/Luke/square.gif
And dont ever try to use such lowly methods as character assasination based on simple typos and misunderstandings again.
Peace
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Peace bro tanveermd.
We cannot rely on unverifiable hearsays/rumors/conjectures/fabrications for the understanding of the truth. The correct understanding of the meaning of the relevant verses in this scientific matter should come from other qur'aanic verses, the proven scientific facts and by using our own minds, reason, and knowledge. One does not need any imams, or scholars of islam to understand the word of Allah. It is Allah who explains his signs through his signs and our minds, reason, and knowledge.
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It is NOTHING BUT A REMINDER TO THE NATIONS;
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And We have not taught him poetry, nor is it meet for him; IT IS NOTHING BUT A REMINDER AND A PLAIN QURAN,
11 2. That you shall not serve (any) but Allah; SURELY I AM A WARNER FOR YOU FROM HIM and A GIVER OF GOOD NEWS,
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And they say Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord? Say The signs are only with Allah, and I AM ONLY A PLAIN WARNER.
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And We send not messengers but AS ANNOUNCERS OF GOOD NEWS and GIVERS OF WARNING, then whoever believes and acts aright, they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve.
I think it only claims to be a book of ethics and have nothing to do with scientific facts.
peace.
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Hello Public
Just a side note
Regarding Mohammad uncle, Abu Lahab
the logical point is this
He died a kafir rejecting Allah and his message, therefore his severe punishment is earned, this verse was revealed years before he died so he had a chance to repent even by faking it to prove the Quran is wrong and he never did despite his hatred to the message
the ones who say they haven't been to hell to see if he is there are been very sarcastic indeed, well they should not even imagine themself there i guess
Salam
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He died a kafir rejecting Allah and his message, therefore his severe punishment is earned, this verse was revealed years before he died so he had a chance to repent even by faking it to prove the Quran is wrong and he never did despite his hatred to the message
I understand this point fully. But do you understand that i could easily point out 20 people i know wouldnt repent anything, even if their life depended on it.
For an evidence to be valid, we have to be able to confirm the outcome. If we cant, its not evidence. And as prophecy, this is weak at best.
peace
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Peace Magi,
Thanks for sharing your views.
My post clearly talked about THE MESSAGE being preserved, not each word
ok, then we agree. no need to debate any further then.
I guess we are in agreement then. End of discussion D
Just a few comments
I dont think the Quran is a book. It is the name of the revelation all prophets and messengers got, but not all their books was called Quran. IT is a revelation that ANYONE can obtain if they truely want to, anywhere, anytime. Observation alone should tell you this.
I think "al-kitab" is the one sent to all the prophets and "al-qur'aan" was sent by Allah to Prophet Muhammad. Can you provide any concrete evidence to back up what you are saying here ?
The verda is some 4000 years older than the Quran and contains pretty much the same astrological ideas. alltho formulated in a different way. embryo develpment etc. All things that can easily be interpretated out of the text. The thing is, God is not giving us the technical side of an embryo, what we can do is see that the details given resemble the process somewhat. But i would claim that this could be found out without God. The western world did by mere observation, why would people back then have been different. Because they were stupid ?
I am not saying that scientific facts cannot be discovered without the qur'aan. What I am saying is that the presence of certain scientific facts in the qur'aan which were 1000 years ahead of their time and NONE of them proven incorrect or contradictory to the recently discovered known and proven facts of science is miraculous and a proof of the divine origin of the qur'aan.
I would say honorable scribes, people of profound spiritual insight, including a man, we call our prophet.
Any concrete evidence to support your opinion/conjecture ? Remember I asked who AUTHORED the qur'aan, not who actually wrote it down on a parchment.
well that is swell. my point however was that many of these facts was in fact NOT discovered 1000's of years later, but where allready knowledge in circulation. Even tribes in Africa knew that the earth was round, and the sun was a star in the middle of several planets cirkeling it. The arabs however thought there were only 7 planets. (7 heavens?). In relegious terminology, heavens often reffered to the visible universe and the things in it observable, like 7 planets.
Any concrete evidence to back up your claim that some scientific facts like for example, the facts about the big bang origin of the universe, the gaseous origin of universe, the expanding universe and its eventual collapse, death of stars, existence of black holes, movement of the sun in an orbit around the center of the galaxy, the string theory, existence of particles smaller than atoms, microscopic details of human embryology, the invisible barrier between seas, were already known at the time of revelation of the qur'aan, or you just want us to believe in conjectures ?
In the qur'aan, Allah uses a separate word for planet, which is "kaukab", not "assamaa".
The great thing about arabic, is that most things can mean just about anything you want to, given the nature of the language. So, all of this rely heavily on interpretation from the individual.
e.g
are we to cut of hands, or mark hands, or remove from hands? Why is this clear arabic speak so hard to understand!The underlined part of your quote is completely false that most words can mean ANYTHING you want to. That is preposterous !
It is very clear to me what the qur'aan means in 538. Its none of what you are saying
538 The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise.
In Arabic language just like any other language, some words can have multiple meanings, and the meaning in a particular sentence is determined by the context. The word "yad" can mean both "hand" and "resource" and in this verse according to the context it clearly means resource.
What is confusing about that ?
can you prove this? that it happened a few years after the revelation of that verse (and thus discrediting aymans idea of where the scripture originated). Here is a prediction. Usa is going to win the war in afghanistan in a few more years. that is what i said when they attacked. am i a prophet now?
When the Romans were defeated has nothing to do with where the qur'aan originated.
Predicting that a super power will be DEFEATED in a few years is much more difficult than predicting that a super power will WIN. Your analogy is inappropriate and flawed. If you predict that USA will be defeated in a few years by Afghanistan and then it happens, that will be miraculous.
The typos you made changed the meaning to totally opposite ! Don't you ever misquote me again thereby falsely attributing to me what I did not say.
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Peace agentxxx,
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It is NOTHING BUT A REMINDER TO THE NATIONS;
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And We have not taught him poetry, nor is it meet for him; IT IS NOTHING BUT A REMINDER AND A PLAIN QURAN,
11 2. That you shall not serve (any) but Allah; SURELY I AM A WARNER FOR YOU FROM HIM and A GIVER OF GOOD NEWS,
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And they say Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord? Say The signs are only with Allah, and I AM ONLY A PLAIN WARNER.
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And We send not messengers but AS ANNOUNCERS OF GOOD NEWS and GIVERS OF WARNING, then whoever believes and acts aright, they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve.
I think it only claims to be a book of ethics and have nothing to do with scientific facts.
The scientific facts are the signs which we can use to verify and confirm THE TRUTH BEING FROM OUR LORD.
Yes, the qur'aan is nothing but a reminder, and part of what it reminds us is to use our mind, reason, and knowledge and contemplate on the signs within and without to search for the truth.
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Peace
I guess we are in agreement then. End of discussion
I think "al-kitab" is the one sent to all the prophets and "al-qur'aan" was sent by Allah to Prophet Muhammad. Can you provide any concrete evidence to back up what you are saying here ?
My understanding is that al kitab is the universal book. Or the/a book that makes us understand Quran, (the message). Yes i can but it is a lengthy debate that has been taken ad naeseum other places on this board. But naturally im open to suggestions. Im looking for truth, not for being right.
I am not saying that scientific facts cannot be discovered without the qur'aan. What I am saying is that the presence of certain scientific facts in the qur'aan which were 1000 years ahead of their time and NONE of them proven incorrect or contradictory to the recently discovered known and proven facts of science is miraculous and a proof of the divine origin of the qur'aan.
An im still telling you that many of these things was knowledge thousands of years before the book was revealed. So, the fact that they are in there proves absolutely nothing. When the world went through the dark ages, something happened to everybodys knowledge. YOu werent allowed to do too much thinking of your own, it could cost you, your life. So suddenly, because we deprived ourself of knowledge we had. and rediscover it, we think we never had it before.
Any concrete evidence to support your opinion/conjecture ? Remember I asked who AUTHORED the qur'aan, not who actually wrote it down on a parchment.
God, ofcourse. Were not debating the message or trueness of it. merely the words on paper, and evidence i find suspicieus regarding The Divine. But now that i undertand your view point, i know that were talking about the same thing in different words. A stupid analogy is
Its like water in the tap. Its the water that is important, not the tap, and in fact, the tap might be contageous with bacteria. However, just because you dont have a tap, does not mean you cant have water, you properbly just have to walk to get it.
Quran = easyer way to water
Less or no Quran = more smacks from God when you fuck up, harder and to me more valuable lessons learned.Any concrete evidence to back up your claim that some scientific facts like for example, the facts about the big bang origin of the universe, the gaseous origin of universe, the expanding universe and its eventual collapse, death of stars, existence of black holes, movement of the sun in an orbit around the center of the galaxy, the string theory, existence of particles smaller than atoms, microscopic details of human embryology, the invisible barrier between seas, were already known at the time of revelation of the qur'aan, or you just want us to believe in conjectures ?
no not at all, but youre asking me for like a single or a few sources. there are no such thing. And most of the stuff you outline is nothing but overinterpretation as far as im concerned. That said. Big bang as a fact, is slowly falling apart, but im not concluding anything untill i see more of it. Look into the zulu tribe of africa. thousands of years ago they knew the world was round (as seen in their art), and for some strange reason, they have tablets of the weight of planetary bodies. In india, they had the power to weld better and with something more solid than we have ever seen before. Im talking about the infamed pilar that doesn rust =/
And the list goes on. Many people call this stuff, out of place artifacts/knowledge, i think the only thing out of place after having seen in the 100's of these strange things, is...that we belive we did not have these knowledges at some point before. altso in written form.If you ask zacharia sitchin and his peers. THe cunaiform include 100% DNA structuresetc etc.. Im not sure, i dont know cunaiform well enough, but i have sen their argumentation, and its pretty good, entertaining, and as fancyfull as the above suggestion you make to science to be found in the QURAN. Please admit that most of it is fancyfull interpretation.
You see, what you are doing at the same time is green lighting science, or rather, the part of science that confirm your book of choice.M theory (former known as superstrings)was dropped as a hot potato, and mutated into several branches. This is nothing. but speculation based on mathematical calculations. So if thats found in the Quran...yay!? I
The great thing about arabic, is that most things can mean just about anything you want to, given the nature of the language. So, all of this rely heavily on interpretation from the individual.
e.g
are we to cut of hands, or mark hands, or remove from hands? Why is this clear arabic speak so hard to understand!The underlined part of your quote is completely false that most words can mean ANYTHING you want to. That is preposterous !
It is very clear to me what the qur'aan means in 538. Its none of what you are saying
538 The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise.
In Arabic language just like any other language, some words can have multiple meanings, and the meaning in a particular sentence is determined by the context. The word "yad" can mean both "hand" and "resource" and in this verse according to the context it clearly means resource.
What is confusing about that ?
apparently a whole lot. as nobody not even Quran aloners can get to agree on it. thus, as clear as it is to you, it is your own personal interpretation, thus my point stands. As someone else will read something else in there.
When the Romans were defeated has nothing to do with where the qur'aan originated.
Predicting that a super power will be DEFEATED in a few years is much more difficult than predicting that a super power will WIN. Your analogy is inappropriate and flawed. If you predict that USA will be defeated in a few years by Afghanistan and then it happens, that will be miraculous.
NO it is not inapropriate, because as i told you, the roman empire (as you now indrectly suggest that it is about) is alive and stronger than ever. Altso in that area. IF were a talking about it as a local conflict, its not very impressive, because we dont know what knowledge they had. Several people said when US entered vietnam (a supposedly cakewalk like Iraq) that it would be suicide. It showed to be suicide, are they prophets and Godsend too then?
The typos you made changed the meaning to totally opposite !
BUt the problem is still there nevertheless in the vers in its correct version. There is no verse in all the book that even remotely suggest the error i made, thus isnt it obvious what verse i was talking about. be honest
Don't you ever misquote me again thereby falsely attributing to me what I did not say.
I dont undertand? Did i do that? if so i am sorry.
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Peace Magi,
My understanding is that al kitab is the universal book. Or the/a book that makes us understand Quran, (the message). Yes i can but it is a lengthy debate that has been taken ad naeseum other places on this board. But naturally im open to suggestions. Im looking for truth, not for being right.
I think that the qur'aan (the message) makes us understand al-kitab, not the other way around
1037 This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
apparently a whole lot. as nobody not even Quran aloners can get to agree on it. thus, as clear as it is to you, it is your own personal interpretation, thus my point stands. As someone else will read something else in there.
I am not a qur'aan aloner but a God aloner. The qur'aan is a unique book of guidance and it itself asks us to use our minds, reason, and knowledge and to contemplate on the signs within and without, including our bodies, the universe around us, archeological findings etc.
An im still telling you that many of these things was knowledge thousands of years before the book was revealed.
Still no concrete evidence/reference. How can you say this without any concrete evidence to back you up ? Sounds like conjecture to me !
God, ofcourse.
I agree. That was the core point of this discussion.
Were not debating the message or trueness of it. merely the words on paper, and evidence i find suspicieus regarding The Divine.
I think you are still misunderstanding me. I am not discussing the exact words on paper but the message or trueness of it. If the message was authored by Allah then it has to be true.
Big bang as a fact, is slowly falling apart, but im not concluding anything untill i see more of it. Look into the zulu tribe of africa. thousands of years ago they knew the world was round (as seen in their art), and for some strange reason, they have tablets of the weight of planetary bodies. In india, they had the power to weld better and with something more solid than we have ever seen before. Im talking about the infamed pilar that doesn rust =/
And the list goes on. Many people call this stuff, out of place artifacts/knowledge, i think the only thing out of place after having seen in the 100's of these strange things, is...that we belive we did not have these knowledges at some point before. altso in written form.References please (from where you get this information).
Also provide me concrete references from where you get the idea that the particular scientific facts I mentioned in my last post were already known at the time of revelation of the qur'aan.
Several people said when US entered vietnam (a supposedly cakewalk like Iraq) that it would be suicide. It showed to be suicide, are they prophets and Godsend too then?
They thought it might be suicide but did not state it as a FACT. If they did state it as a fact then please give me the references/evidence.
By misquoting I meant you saying that I did something whereas actually I didn't. Accuse might have been a better word than misquote. For example I didn't judge you but made a conditional statement and you claimed that I judged you. The verses I quoted were applicable only IF the conditional statement was true, which I found was not true.
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peace
I am not a qur'aan aloner but a God aloner. The qur'aan is a unique book of guidance and it itself asks us to use our minds, reason, and knowledge and to contemplate on the signs within and without, including our bodies, the universe around us, archeological findings etc.
im not really sure anymore what we are debating because it would seem that at the core of things we are in 100% agreement with eachother.
Still no concrete evidence/reference. How can you say this without any concrete evidence to back you up ? Sounds like conjecture to me !
I gave you a clue brother. OUT OF PLACE/TIME ARTIFACTS!!! THere is so much data, that to say, go look in this book is ridiculous, because no collected work has been made on the subject. But you realise that youre indirectly calling me a liar. Its not my duty to show you what i have allready learned. I have showed you a direction, wich would be my responsability in this regard.
I think you are still misunderstanding me. I am not discussing the exact words on paper but the message or trueness of it. If the message was authored by Allah then it has to be true.
Hmm...Well we both agree that the message is true, and i think i have to go along with your explanation that i have it the wrong way around. However, i had the words mixed up, my understanding of it is basically the same as yours. Quran, al kitab.
My main point being. There is not a guaranteed protection of the meduim, the book, there is of what its containing. Even if perverts changed every single word in the whole scripture, any honest searchin belivever would still "get the point". With our without dubvious "evidence" from a science we know change face all the time. i mean we blame science when it disagree with us for changing all the time, but when it confirm stuff we can INTERPRETATE out of our books with out current understanding. Suddenly science is valid as evidence.
This is why im saying. TO hell with what science says if it is of no practical use for me. The evidence of the truthfullness of the message must be something else. I have experienced a drastic change in character in just months, after i released of all my idols altso the book wich i idolised myself, i nearly gave up faith. And there crawling on my knees i realised that i was completely missing the point by continously searching the book for answers. All it does is point in directions, the work is my own to do. As far as im concerned. the book we are debating regardless of name, does not contain a single answer. And yet, it is another key to every single answer you ever need to understand the things around you.
If you want to take these interpretations that we talk about, for evidence. Thats good, that would mean that its doing its thing. You think its evidence, ergo, its evidence, as its leading you to the message. For me personally its other stuff that does it, a more practical experience based approach you might call it.
Also provide me concrete references from where you get the idea that the particular scientific facts I mentioned in my last post were already known at the time of revelation of the qur'aan.
Take a look at some of Aymans articles, i find them fascinating. He ackonwledge e.g that the neabeteans was expert astrologers. If thats the case. They too would have known about the stellar bodies of movemnt, as did everybody at the time. Whole relegions is based in these planets and their paths.
They thought it might be suicide but did not state it as a FACT. If they did state it as a fact then please give me the references/evidence.
please hand me the evidence that MOhammads uncle is in hell. Here on earth such a prophecy is not worth the paper its written on obviously. And as such, purely logical thinking forbids me to acknowledge this. its either something i cannot understand entirely, the example means something else than it says, or...its not part of the message in total, and does in no way affect my salvation if i belive in it or not.
The message is perfect, but is the book? I know the book says its perfect, but so does laveys book, and i dont think thats perfect, In fact, i find his books message repulsive, regardless of the fact that it is well written, in a strong language and well articulated. Nostradamus work, altso can be said as having prophecy fullfilled,or rather so somone interpretate it to be. Is his message perfect. there isnt really any is there, but is his work technically was flawless. Leaernado da vinci etc. etc..
Many people have written books next to flawless, many have prophecised and had it come true (if you interpretate it that way). So, all we can judge on, is the message it conveys. And i think this is our only seperation in mindset.
Finally, I am humbled by my error towards you, please accept my sincere appology i had no intention of hurting your feelings.
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Peace tanveermd,
tanveermd- The scientific facts are the signs which we can use to verify and confirm THE TRUTH BEING FROM OUR LORD.
Bro what scientific facts as signs were there for those who too believed, it is a truth from our lord?
It is the code of ethics that makes quran a wonderful book and not some ambiguous verses/references. And Frankly I don?t need any confirmation regarding honesty, mercy, charity, justice, peace, tolerance, equality, love etc because I know these are the truth from our lord, no scientific facts as signs are required to believe in them.
3955- AND FOLLOW THE BEST THAT HAS BEEN REVEALED TO YOU FROM YOUR LORD before there comes to you the punishment all of a sudden while you do not even perceive;
My understanding regarding THIS BEST THAT HAS BEEN REVELED FROM OUR LORD, and which we are being told to follow, is the CODE OF ETHICS, the punishment mentioned in the verse/quran also is in reference to the violation of this code and not due to belief or disbelief in irrelevant scientific indications of quran.
tanveermd- Yes, the qur'aan is nothing but a reminder, and part of what it reminds us is to use our mind, reason, and knowledge and contemplate on the signs within and without to search for the truth.
Others have used their minds, reason, and knowledge to search for the signs and discover the truth in the universe/nature, and after they make a scientific discovery we use our mind, reason, and knowledge to associate it with some verse of quran so TO PROVE IT IS THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD .
Today most of our intellectuals/scholars are busy preaching/debating the so-called scientific realities in quran rather then preaching the excellent code of ethics, which is the essence of quran.
Peace.