Al Quran=The Reading[(not the title) of the Book]

Fahad1

salam brother AhmedBahgat .

i m replying to your post at http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=81070#81070

Salam brother darbaari

Just a quick note and please don?t consider it a debate in anyway, calling the Quran ?The Reading? and substituting it with the two words ?The Reading? is very misleading, vague and does not make any sense

We know that the Quran is a book that can only be read as any other book, what new info here to call it the reading?

because "al quran" does not refer to the book . "al kitab" is the book . "Koran" is the name we have given to it .

And most people must ask if you mention it ?The Reading?, which reading?,

when they ask which reading , we can reply "this reading"(haaza alquran, i think ?) . but because ppl are not much aware of this concept , i mostly use the name we have given i.e. "Koran" instead of "reading" .

this is because the Reading is very general and have no attraction to it as an individual word without any context.

THE reading is not general , like THE book is not general .

And when you face that question ?which reading exactly?? then I'm sure you will answer "The Quran? and when you do that, everything is clear

i would like to answer "this reading", or "the reading which ppl call Koran" because most ppl are unaware of this concept, as i mentioned before , so it will be difficult to make them understand .

Now if everything is clear by calling it The Quran, why making it vague and hard to understand for an average human being?

See, if I tell you I love the song, you will ask me which song?, if I keep telling you, the song is the song, you will call me crazy, but if I tell you I love The wall by pink floyed, then you need no elaboration from me unless you don?t know pink floyed and his album the wall

If the song hasn?t been named , then u can tell him other attributes of the song , or simply ?this song? by point to the CD that contains the song . same with the Reading .

You have to also consider that there are people who can?t read due to ignorance or due to disability, so how they can read the Quran?

that would be an exception .

The Quran is also for listening, in fact here is another clear order to do just that

YUSUFALI When the Qur'an is read, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace that ye may receive Mercy.

PICKTHAL And when the Qur'an is recited, give ear to it and pay heed, that ye may obtain mercy.

SHAKIR And when the Quran is recited, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you.

(204)

-> Now, please tell me, why the above 3 translators all agreed that Quran means Quran?

According to 7204, which one makes sense to an average human

When the Quran is read?

Or

When the reading is read?

This is the verse that was preventing me to accept that ?Al Quran? means ?the Reading?. But later , I found out that according to the Koran , the reading can be read , like the writing can be written (279) or a punishment can be punished (5115) . it might not make sense to an average human , but it makes sense in the Koran?s language .

I see the name ?Al Quran? is very unique and a miracle on its own because no other reading took that title ?Al Quran? but all readings are already ?The readings? which is vague because it can refer to any thing that can be read including the Quran.

Al Quran only inclines to read but never ever meant the reading because the reading means ??, "Qiraa"

Can u give me any reference to any verse which indicates that ?qiraa? means "reading" . because I think that ?quran? means ?reading? , like in the following verses

7517 Surely, upon Us rests its collection and its reading(quraana hu) .
7518 So when We read it(quraana hu), then follow thou its reading(quraana hu) .

thanks and salam.

unknownuser

Peace bro

I just waked up and have a very busy day, i will look at later carefully

thanks

agentxxx

peace darbaari,

you wrote

because "al quran" does not refer to the book . "al kitab" is the book . "Koran" is the name we have given to it .

bro, for my information i want to know
when was the name koran given to al kitab? and why has it become so Universally established/approved to alkitab?

when and who first realised that quran is not the name of alkitab?

Peace.

unknownuser

Peace all,

After reconsidering all the evidence based on "al-qur'aan", my understanding is that "al-qur'aan" means "the reading" as used in it. The word "al-qur'aan" can consistently be only a common noun in the entire qur'aan, not a proper name in some places and a common noun in some places.

Remember, in Arabic language there are no capital letters to denote a proper name. In Arabic, whether a word is proper name or a common noun in a sentence or a book is determined by the CONTEXT of usage of that word.

Nowhere in "al-qur'aan" Allah has mentioned the word "ism" in relation with "al-qur'aan" to make it a clear cut name of the book of Allah, like He does with His names when He mentions "asma al-husna" or "bismillah". So saying that it can only mean the name of the book of Allah does not have a clear cut authority from Allah.

For the benefit of all the readers, following is quote from an article which gives all the evidences from "al-qur'aan" to prove that "al-qur'aan can only mean "the reading"

The reading/("al-quran")

Since we are basing our analysis on its verses, then it is appropriate to start by asking oneself whether the proper name "Quran" is authorized by The God or not. In other words, should the word that people use to describe it be "quran/reading" or "Quran"?

First, let's see if the word "quran" is used as a proper name or a common description. One of the ways to do this is to check if there is any occurrence of the word quran in the common form. As we start our analysis, we readily see that the common description "a quran" is used many times throughout the quran. For example the following verses make it clear that "quran" simply means "reading" and is not a proper name

A.L.R., these are the signs of the book, and a clear reading/quran.
And a reading/quran that We have separated, so that you may explain it for the people over time; and We have brought it down gradually.
We did not teach him poetry, nor does he need it. This is a reminder and a profound reading/quran.
Say "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said "We have heard a magnificent reading/quran!"
No, it is a glorious reading/quran.
And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said "Bring a reading/quran other than this, or change it!" Say "It is not for me to change it from my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear if I disobey my Lord the retribution of a great day!"

In verse 1015, please note that the messenger didn't object to the rejecters using the common description and only objected to making any changes to the reading/quran on his own.

Similarly, there are many verses that use the common description to denote that what The God sent down is an Arabic reading

We have sent it down an Arabic reading/quran, perhaps you will be logical.
And it was such that We sent it down as an Arabic reading/quran, and We cited in it many warnings, perhaps they will become forethoughtful or it will cause for them a remembrance.
A reading/quran in Arabic, without any crookedness, that they may be forethoughtful.

411-3. H. M. A revelation from the Almighty, Most Merciful. A book whose signs are detailed, a reading/quran in Arabic for people who know.

And had We made it a non-Arabic reading/quran, they would have said "If only its verses were made detailed!" Non-Arabic or Arabic, say "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is a deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away"
And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic reading/quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the day of summoning that is inevitable. A group will be in the garden, and a group in hell.
We have made it into an Arabic reading/quran, perhaps you may understand.

There are some verses that use the word "quran" to describe other readings, which is yet another indication that it must be a common description as opposed to a proper name

And if a reading/quran were to be used to move mountains, or to cut away the land, or the dead were spoken to with it. No, to The God is all matters. Did not those who believe know that had The God willed He would have guided all the people? As for those who reject, they continue to be stricken with disaster or it comes near to their houses, until The God?s promise comes true. The God does not break His appointment.
Say "If all the humans and the "jinn" were to gather to bring a reading/quran like this, they could not come with its like, even if they were helping one another."

In the above verses, the word "quran" is used to describe hypothetical readings other than the ultimate reading/quran we know. Hence, we see that "quran" is used as a common description and not a proper name.

There are also many instances where the reading/quran is pointed to by saying "this" ("hatha" in Arabic). The use of "this" to specify the reading/quran further confirms that reading/quran is not a proper name but is a common description. For example

This reading/quran could not have been produced without The God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and detailing of the book in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
We relate to you the best stories through what We have inspired to you in this reading/quran; and before it you were of those who were unaware.
This reading/quran guides to that which is more upright, and it gives glad tidings to the believers who do good work that they will have a bountiful reward.
And We have cited to mankind in this reading/quran of every example, but most of mankind refuse anything except rejection.
This is an honorable reading/quran.
And We have cited in this reading/quran so they may remember, but it only increases their aversion.

See also verses such as 619, 1854, 2530, 2776, 3058, 3431, 3927, 4126, 4331, 5921.

There are other verses that talk about "the quran" ("al-quran") (see 2185, 482, 5101, 7204, 9111, 1061, 1587, 1591, 1698, 1745-46, 1760, 1778, 1782, 212, 21114, 2532, 271, 276, 2792, 2885, 362, 381, 4629, 4724, 501, 5045, 5417, 5422, 5432, 5440, 552, 734, 7320, 7623, 8421). For example

1745-46. And when you read the reading/quran, We place between you and those who do not believe in the hereafter an invisible barrier. And we place shields over their hearts, so they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the reading/quran alone, they run away giving their backs in aversion.

In this case, if we didn't have all the verses that talk about "a reading/quran" in the common sense, it would have been a little more difficult to assess whether "the reading/al-quran" is in the common or the proper form. However, given the fact that the reading/quran from The God doesn't have any inconsistencies we can safely say that those instances where the reading/al-quran is mentioned, it is also in the common meaning.

For example, when somebody tells you to meet him at the restaurant while you are standing in front of a restaurant, then "the restaurant" is this restaurant that you are standing in front of and it is not the proper name of the establishment. Similarly, when verses speak about the reading/quran while you are reading a reading/quran, then this reading/quran is the one you are reading and not a proper name.

In fact given that it is established to the reader as we saw above in many verses that the reading/quran is "this reading/quran" that he/she is currently reading, then saying "the reading/quran" is a device for implying that what the reader is reading is the "ultimate" reading/quran.

The next logical query is to try to determine whether "al-kitab"/the book is a proper name, "the Book" or a common description, "the book".

The book/("al-kitab")

Is it the "book" or the "Book"?

Similar to our analysis of the word "reading/quran" we find many verses where the book/"kitab" is mentioned as a common description to denote the book from The God

And when a book ("kitab") came to them from The God, authenticating what is with them; while before that they were mocking those who rejected; so when what they knew came to them, they rejected it, so The God?s curse be upon the rejecters.
And this is a book ("kitab") We have sent down, blessed, authenticating what is present with him, and that you warn the capital of the towns and those around it. And those who have faith in the hereafter have faith in it, and they are protective over their "salat".
A book ("kitab") which has been sent down to you, so let there not be any burden in your chest from it, so that you may warn with it; and a reminder to the faithful.
And We have come to them with a book ("kitab") that We have detailed with knowledge; a guide and a mercy to those who have faith.
A.L.R., a book ("kitab") whose verses were made decisive, then detailed from One who is The Wise, The Expert.
A.L.R. A book ("kitab") which We have sent down to you so that you may take the people out of the darkness and into the light by their Lord?s leave to the path of The Proud, The Praiseworthy.
We have sent down to you a book ("kitab") in which is your remembrance. Do you not comprehend?
The God has sent down the best narration; a book ("kitab") that is similar in two ways. The skins of those who reverence their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of The God. Such is The God's guidance; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whomever The God misguides, then none can guide him.
They said ?O our people, we have heard a book ("kitab") that was sent down after Moussa, authenticating what is present with him. It guides to the truth; and to a straight path.

Moreover, according to the reading, The God has many books (plural) so once again we see that "the book" is a common description and not a proper name

The messenger had faith in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in The God, and those He gave control to, and His books ("kutubihi"), and His messengers; we do not differentiate between any of His messengers; and they said "We hear and obey, your forgiveness O Lord, and to you is our destiny."
O you who have faith, believe in The God and His messenger, and the book that was sent down to His messenger, and the book that was sent before. And whosoever rejects The God, and those He gave control to, and His books ("kutubihi"), and His messengers, and the last day, he has strayed a far straying.

In fact, even human books written by the very hands of people are described as "the book" in the quran

So woe to those who write the book ("al-kitab") with their hands then say "This is from The God", that they can seek a cheap price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.

All this confirms that what makes the book special is not that it is "the Book" but that it is "the book from The God".

So now that we know that both "the book" and "the reading" are not proper names but common descriptions, the next logical question is What is the relationship between "the book" and "the reading"?

Once we have given up the proper names not authorized by The God, suddenly the answer is obvious. The relationship is simply that "the reading" is the reading of "the book" and the purpose of the reading of the book is to LEARN. This is confirmed by verses such as 961-5

961-5. Read in the name of your Lord who has created. He created man from a clot. Read, and your Lord is the Generous One. The One who taught by the pen. He taught man what he did not know.

That "the reading" is reading from the written book is so obvious that even preschool children know this fact. It is a fact so clear that, under normal circumstances, it would be hardly worth mentioning in an article. Yet by giving such concepts as the reading and the book proper names not authorized by The God, it is painfully observable that most people have defied common sense and have been prevented from even understanding this simple and obvious fact.

Blinded from this simple fact by the unauthorized proper names that they invented for the reading and the book, some sects went on to fantasize some illogical beliefs. For instance, some sectarians irrationally propose that the reading/quran is "eternal and uncreated". The first difficulty with this doctrine is a fact that those sectarians can't change or circumvent. This fact is demonstrated by verses such as the following

And Moussa said to his people "O my people, you have wronged your souls by taking the calf, so repent to your Maker, and kill yourselves. That is better for you with your Maker, so He would forgive you. He is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

In verse 254, it is Moussa who is being quoted as part of the quran. So if the reading is eternal and uncreated then sectarians are implying that Moussa's speech is also eternal and uncreated since what he said is quoted as part of a verse of the reading. Before sectarians start to think that Moussa was special, after all he was a messenger, they should read the verse that immediately follows the above verse, namely 255

And you said "O Moussa, we will not believe you until we see The God openly!" So the lightning took you while you were still watching."

So now, the rejecters from the descendents of Israel are also being quoted in a verse that is part of the quran. So now according to the sectarians' doctrine, their speech is eternal and uncreated too. How about the speech in this verse, which is also a part of the quran

He (the devil) said "For that which You have caused me to be misled, I will skulk for them on Your straight path."

I hope that everybody can see the silliness of the sectarians' beliefs. Despite those glaring logical errors and the fact that the reading clearly indicates that we have free choice, many sectarians defy their God-given common sense and continue to have such irrational beliefs.

It is inevitable that such sects end up serving the names that they invented instead of The God alone. For instance, some hang verses of the reading/quran on their walls to ward off evil and recite certain chapters to cure the sick despite fully knowing that The God is the only Protector. They have also turned the reading of the book into a ceremonial affair and have restricted the understanding of what is being read to the exclusive domain of self-styled experts from the clergy. The reading/quran is exactly that and hence it should be read and understood by everybody to the best of their abilities.

Unfortunately, even well intentioned people have made major blunders. For example, some proposed that the reading and the book denote two separate groups of verses. What ensued is a guessing game of which verses belong to which group. As in verse 5321, once unauthorized proper names were given to a concept, people started to divide things haphazardly. Thus, it was proposed that we might only be required to uphold the so-called "Book" but not the so-called "Quran".

I often used to mistakenly call the reading/quran as the "Quran". The important thing is to repent and correct once the truth becomes apparent. I am hoping that this article would contribute to my correcting.

The above quote is from the article titled "What's in the name" and can be found at the following link

http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm

Just to add to the comments of darbaari on Ahmed's post

You have to also consider that there are people who can?t read due to ignorance or due to disability, so how they can read the Quran?

Just because someone cannot read what "al-qur'aan"/the reading says does not mean that it cannot be translated as "the reading". An analogy would be that just because someone cannot sing the song does not mean that it is not a song, or just because someone cannot see does not mean that a TV cannot be called "teleVISION".

unknownuser

Nowhere in "al-qur'aan" Allah has mentioned the word "ism" in relation with "al-qur'aan" to make it a clear cut name of the book of Allah, like He does with His names when He mentions "asma al-husna" or "bismillah". So saying that it can only mean the name of the book of Allah does not have a clear cut authority from Allah.

Peace

can you please show me the list of Asmaa Allah Al Husna that are authorised from the Quran?

and please let me know how every name you will post is authorised

Thanks

shuaib

salams all,

interesting blurb i learned, that in classical Islamic theological terminology, Quran refers to the oral aspect of the book, whereas if one is referring specifically to the book it is usually referred to as MusHaf.

As far as al-Quran being a proper noun, though this may not specifically be sanctioned by "the book" it certainly has become used in that way and there is nothing to say we cannot call the book al-Quran. I understand the complaint that if it's a proper noun people forget the attribute of having to read it.

But "Muslim" is not a proper noun, and it too has become one in the way it is used. Quran may not be a proper noun, but it has become one through the way its used. The only way to turn this back, is to instill in people's heart the living force of din, THEN they will see that Muslim and Quran indicate activity. You won't change anything by starting a crusade against proper nouns.

unknownuser

Peace brother Ahmed,

can you please show me the list of Asmaa Allah Al Husna that are authorised from the Quran?

and please let me know how every name you will post is authorised

I have not done a detailed research on the names of Allah in al-qur'aan but the verses that come to mind are the following

5922 He is Allah; there is no other god beside Him. Knower of all secrets and declarations. He is Al-Rahman, Al-Raheem.
5923 He is Allah; there is no other god beside Him. Al-Malik, Al-Quddoos, Assalam, Al-Mumin, Al-Muhaymin, Al-Azeez, Al-Jabbar, Al-Mutakabbir. Allah be glorified; far above what they set up.
5924 He is Allah; Al-Khaliq, Al-Bari, Al-Musawwir. To Him belong the most beautiful names. Glorifying Him is everything in the heavens and the Earth. He is Al-Aziz, Al-Hakeem.

So this gives us a preliminary list of the beautiful names of Allah

Allah
Al-Rahman - The Almighty
Al-Raheem - The Merciful
Al-Malik - The King
Al-Quddoos - The Holy
Assalam - The Peace
Al-Mumin - The Faithful
Al-Muhaymin - The Supreme
Al-Aziz - The Noble
Al-Jabbar - The Powerful
Al-Mutakabbir - The Dignified
Al-Khaliq - The Creator
Al-Bari - The Initiator
Al-Musawwir - The Designer
Al-Hakeem - The Wise

Except the first name all others are ALSO His attributes and are referred to as His beautiful NAMES in the above verses. It follows that ALL attributes of Allah mentioned in al-qur'aan can also be His names.

Following link contains a list of some attributes of Allah mentioned in al-qur'aan along with identification of verses mentioning those attributes, which according to my understanding as stated above are also His beautiful names

http//www.islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm

In addition to these attributes/names of Allah, as brother Ahmed, and sister Myr recently brought to my attention, the following are also Allah's attributes/names mentioned in "al-qur'aan"

Al-Akram - The Most Generous (963)
Arham Al-Rahemeen - The Most Merciful of all the merciful (7151, 1264, 1292, 2183)

By mentioning His attributes in "al-qur'aan" Allah authorizes us to use them for His glorification.

Readers please note that Allah has NEVER mentioned the attribute "akbar" for Himself in "al-qur'aan".

Brother Ahmed, now that I have fallen in your "trap", what "surprise" do you have for me ? just kidding bro ! P lol

unknownuser

Peace all,

The book is named, titled and known throughout the world in any language and pronounced as Quran or Koran and there's no question about it. The Quran is an Arabic word and title/name given to the Arabic written text. If Danish is my proper name, it will remain as such and known all over the world in any language (written differently) and addressed as Danish and nothing else. Whatever its meaning or however it is understood in the context of verses/sentences, is another issue which many are biased about. The example that Ahmed gave on Pink Floyd's song "The Wall" is the name/title given to the song and the context in which the lyrics are spoken or sung deciphers the meaning/message of its title.

http//www.pinkfloyd.net/albums/index.php?lyrics=6#3

And check what ?The Reading? is all about on the following link
http//search.earthlink.net/search?q=The+Reading&area=earthlink-ws&FD=0&channel=narrowband

There are absolutely no attributes limited or confined to GOD and there is certainly NO NAME for GOD.

ayman

Peace brother Shuaib,

It is great to see you on the forum.

interesting blurb i learned, that in classical Islamic theological terminology, Quran refers to the oral aspect of the book, whereas if one is referring specifically to the book it is usually referred to as MusHaf.

As far as al-Quran being a proper noun, though this may not specifically be sanctioned by "the book" it certainly has become used in that way and there is nothing to say we cannot call the book al-Quran. I understand the complaint that if it's a proper noun people forget the attribute of having to read it.

But "Muslim" is not a proper noun, and it too has become one in the way it is used. Quran may not be a proper noun, but it has become one through the way its used. The only way to turn this back, is to instill in people's heart the living force of din, THEN they will see that Muslim and Quran indicate activity.

Exactly. When one understands "islam" not as the label of some Abbasid era religion but as the common action that is done to The God by everything in the heavens and the earth willingly or forceably, this helps him or her reach a better understanding.

Similarly when one understands "quran" as literally the reading of the book and not as a meaningless proper name of a book that is hanged on walls to ward evil, used to cast magic spells, or containing secret esoteric codes then he or she reaches a better understanding.

You won't change anything by starting a crusade against proper nouns.

As people who were given the book, we are to reveal it to people as best as we can (3187). On the other hand, we certainly can never change anything in people and it is not about them anyway. The God doesn't change the condition of a people until they change what is inside them.

It is up to each person to change what is inside him or her. By removing the meaningless proper name that is not authorized by The God and that blocks our understanding of the real meaning, we achieve a better understanding. This is something each person does for him or herself not for others.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace all,

The book is named, titled and known throughout the world in any language and pronounced as Quran or Koran and there's no question about it. The Quran is an Arabic word and title/name given to the Arabic written text. If Danish is my proper name, it will remain as such and known all over the world in any language (written differently) and addressed as Danish and nothing else. Whatever its meaning or however it is understood in the context of verses/sentences, is another issue which many are biased about. The example that Ahmed gave on Pink Floyd's song "The Wall" is the name/title given to the song and the context in which the lyrics are spoken or sung deciphers the meaning/message of its title.

http//www.pinkfloyd.net/albums/index.php?lyrics=6#3

And check what ?The Reading? is all about on the following link
http//search.earthlink.net/search?q=The+Reading&area=earthlink-ws&FD=0&channel=narrowband

There are absolutely no attributes limited or confined to GOD and there is certainly NO NAME for GOD.

Thank you Danish

The search thingy is a very strong and practical argument

Google Search Results "The Reading"
http//www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=The+Reading&meta=

Google Search Results "The Great Reading"
http//www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=The+Great+Reading&spell=1

Please let me know how many Quran links you get from the above and compare it to the following

Google Search Results "The Quran"
http//www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=The+Quran&meta=

lol

Thank you again Danish

Fahad1

peace agentxxx.

peace darbaari,

you wrote

because "al quran" does not refer to the book . "al kitab" is the book . "Koran" is the name we have given to it .

bro, for my information i want to know
when was the name koran given to al kitab? and why has it become so Universally established/approved to alkitab?

dunno bro .

when and who first realised that quran is not the name of alkitab?

dunno either . but i heard the concept first from Muhammad Shiekh of www.the-quran.org , www.iipc.tv .

peace.

shuaib

salam br ayman,

good to see you too! it's been quite a while, i dont post often but I try to stop in and read.

You know I agree with your ideology, but I think that in this day and age, considering that the views of the members on this forum differ so greatly from the mainstream, it just makes sense to pick our battles. It'd be (IMHO) a lot more fruitful and less abrasive to teach people that them about true din and the living force that it implies, rather than force people to let go of the pronouns and names that all the terminology has become.

I think there has to be a well thought out strategy on how best to implement and introduce the ideological change that needs to occur in Islam. If we pick petty things, the message will get lost.

shuaib

oh incidentally, (i know this is way off the topic), I thought it was interesting that some scientists recently discovered some sort of lunar calendar in some ancient caves (i'm not sure if its lascaux). It seems that in that particular one, the full moon was used to indicate the beginning of the month! (I immediately thought of you of course) i think this is the only instance I have seen, most of the other societies including mesopotamia, egypt etc used the new moon as the beginning.

i also thought this lecture was very interesting
http//www.zaytuna.org/audio/ramadan/Moon%20Sighting.mp3

I used to be of the mind that we should just use calculations to set the dates, but I was very intrigued by the ideas mentioned in the lecture above!

unknownuser

salam brother AhmedBahgat .

i m replying to your post at http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=81070#81070

Salam brother darbaari

Just a quick note and please don?t consider it a debate in anyway, calling the Quran ?The Reading? and substituting it with the two words ?The Reading? is very misleading, vague and does not make any sense

We know that the Quran is a book that can only be read as any other book, what new info here to call it the reading?

because "al quran" does not refer to the book . "al kitab" is the book . "Koran" is the name we have given to it .

Salam brother darbaari

How do you say the above bro, why you are translating ?Al Quran?, to ?The Reading? and not calling it ?The Writing??, remember, it is also called ?Al Kitab?, and we are 100% certain that Al kitab is a collection of writings, while we are not certain that Quran means ?Reading??

This is strange man, to translate the one with doubt and leave the one that we know 100% what it means ?Al Kitab?

?Ka Ta Ba? root in Arabic is ?To write?, therefore based on that logic, The Quran should be called ?The Writing? not ?The Reading?, do you agree mate?

In the above comment by you, this part raised my eye brow, ? because "al quran" does not refer to the book ?

What that mean exactly bro?

Like Al Quran does not mean ?Al Kitab?? And I mean by Al Kitab ?The Quran?

Or

Al Quran is something else than Al Kitab? And I mean by Al Kitab ?The Quran?

Or

There is no relation whatsoever between Al Quran and Al Kitab(Quran)?

See the confusion bro,

Every time I have to say Al Kitab, I have to tell you that I mean ?Al Quran?, because ?Al Kitab? is very general and means nothing but ?The Book?, even if it is with a capital B, it still means in Arabic ?The book? as any other book, no difference indeed

Allah called it many times, Al Quran and Al Kitab , to tell us that Al Kitab is not like any other book, one of its properties that it is a book named ?Al Quran?

Here is a verse calling it Kitab and Quran at the same time

YUSUFALI A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

PICKTHAL A Scripture whereof the verses are expounded, a Lecture in Arabic for people who have knowledge,

SHAKIR A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know

(3)

Here is a logical argument. If 413 should be understood as follow

?A Book of which the verses has been explained, an Arabic Reading for a people who know?

Please note, the underline is what I think is right but is not related to our discussion here so let?s skip that, but wow bro, 431 now is very discriminate verse against the ones who don?t know Arabic

It says

A Book of which the verses has been explained
An Arabic Reading for a people who know

I. strangely. E. THIS BOOK IS ONLY FOR THE ONES WHO CAN READ ARABIC ? an Arabic Reading for a people who know?, while the fact of the matter is, most of the Quran readers are non Arabs and they read it in other languages but Arabic.

Now let?s look at it with what I believe is very accurate

?A Book of which the verses has been explained, an Arabic Quran for a people who know?

well, there is big difference in here, I?m sure many will deny it, but here we go

Now, 413 does not associate the book that have explained verses with Arabic reading for only the ones who know, because previously under the other concept, it means that only the ones who know how to perform ARABIC READING will receive the guidance from it. But I have seen many humans who don?t speak Arabic and understand the Quran far better than many native Arabic speakers.

Therefore, Quran is a name not an action of reading because 413 will mean ?A book of which verses has been explained, an Arabic Quran for the ones with knowledge?, those ones can be any one with any language as long as they read the Quran in their own language and gained knowledge with the will of Allah due to their sincerity. However I agree though that the name Quran incline an action of reading, but this inclination may be even false because it was never confirmed in thousands of years that the name Quran inclines an action to read, it was only a suggestion, we have never seen another book called Quran indeed, therefore it is a unique name that sure confused all of us because it was chosen by God not by humans.

A final note in here, if you look at the translations by these populars translators you will see that Yusuf Ali and Shakir translated Quran to Quran, Pickthal however translated Quran to Lecture

do you think that Lecture means Reading? and why you think Yusuf Ali and Shakir translated Quran to Quran?

And most people must ask if you mention it ?The Reading?, which reading?,

when they ask which reading , we can reply "this reading"(haaza alquran, i think ?) . but because ppl are not much aware of this concept , i mostly use the name we have given i.e. "Koran" instead of "reading" .

Firstly, I?m, glad that you called it CONCEPT, I can assure you that this is how it will always stay inshaallah, because Allah does not play puzzle games with us, and there is a very common word in Arabic that means reading

Secondly, ?haaza? in ?haaza al quran? means Al Quran is masculine, but The Reading in Arabic is feminine, how this is possible?, can you please give some examples of a few Arabic words that can be masculine and feminie at the same time?

Thirdly when you answered them back that it is the Quran , what did you achieve exactly other than wasting time? Trying to be smart but back to square one? I don?t really get it bro, no disrespect here, I guess the conversation between you and that person will be diverted to why you are calling it reading but not Quran?, that is an additional waste of time bro, and the outcome will always be

It is that book called Quran,

Fourthly, you said ?i mostly use the name we have given i.e. "Koran" instead of "reading"?

Bro, this means you are confused, sorry again, but it raised my eye brow, how come you verbally insist on something that you think is right then you do what you think is wrong in your every day life?

this is because the Reading is very general and have no attraction to it as an individual word without any context.

THE reading is not general , like THE book is not general

I?m sorry bro, this does not exist in Arabic, I still have to identify which is ?THE Book?, and I guess it happen in all languages, let?s test it in English

Brother darbaari

Can you please buy me THE Book from your city and send it to my address?

Thanks bro

I hope that you don?t send THE wrong Book mate

I?m not sure why I call it the book from the first pace, let?s do it again bro and have some fun

Take 2

Brother darbaari

Can you please buy me THE Writing from your city and send it to my address?

Thanks bro

I hope that you don?t send THE wrong Writing mate

And when you face that question ?which reading exactly?? then I'm sure you will answer "The Quran? and when you do that, everything is clear

i would like to answer "this reading", or "the reading which ppl call Koran" because most ppl are unaware of this concept, as i mentioned before , so it will be difficult to make them understand .

see mate, that is the additional waste of time I mentioned earlier, but for what bro?

Do you think the ones who name it ?Al Quran?, are Kuffar?, or let?s put this way Do you think the ones who name it ?Al Quran?, are committing a sin?

Now if everything is clear by calling it The Quran, why making it vague and hard to understand for an average human being?

See, if I tell you I love the song, you will ask me which song?, if I keep telling you, the song is the song, you will call me crazy, but if I tell you I love The wall by pink floyed, then you need no elaboration from me unless you don?t know pink floyed and his album the wall

If the song hasn?t been named

have you ever heard of someone making a song and not giving it a name?, I don?t know, I never heard of it

, then u can tell him other attributes of the song

oh yeh, the additional waste of time I told you about earlier twice.

, or simply ?this song? by point to the CD that contains the song . same with the Reading .

excuse me mate, the CD has at least 10 songs, which song of the songs on the cd please?

Also don?t forget to send me The Writing, but please don?t send me The wrong Writing

You have to also consider that there are people who can?t read due to ignorance or due to disability, so how they can read the Quran?

that would be an exception .

but according 413 the detailed book is only for the ones who knows how to perform Arabic reading, would the non Arabic speakers be also an exception?, man, that is one hell of an exception, sounds like the majority to me

The Quran is also for listening, in fact here is another clear order to do just that

YUSUFALI When the Qur'an is read, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace that ye may receive Mercy.

PICKTHAL And when the Qur'an is recited, give ear to it and pay heed, that ye may obtain mercy.

SHAKIR And when the Quran is recited, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you.

(204)

-> Now, please tell me, why the above 3 translators all agreed that Quran means Quran?

According to 7204, which one makes sense to an average human

When the Quran is read?

Or

When the reading is read?

This is the verse that was preventing me to accept that ?Al Quran? means ?the Reading?. But later , I found out that according to the Koran , the reading can be read , like the writing can be written (279) or a punishment can be punished (5115) . it might not make sense to an average human , but it makes sense in the Koran?s language .

then based on your logic, The Qiraa should be the one to read, not the Quran, because again Quran never meaning reading but Qiraa, here is an online example

Uhibbu Al Qira'a ?
I Love Reading! Volumes 1 & 2

Taken from http//www.noorart.com/product147.html

Can you see the word in English ?Reading? and the Arabic one ? ?, exactly as I posted before in another thread, so I was not misleading you, but hey look again at the web site above, this is what the children learn, that The reading means ? ?, not ? ?

I have zillions of examples to show you online, but I have an important question to you

Do you think those who write these children books are fooling the innocent children?, why do you think they lied at them and told them that Reading is Qiraa and not Quran?

To discourage them from reading the Quran you reckon?

Or it is a conspiracy that most Arabs (if not all) over all generations are contributing to it somehow?

Do you think those Arabs who call Reading Qiraa and not Quran are going to hell?

I see the name ?Al Quran? is very unique and a miracle on its own because no other reading took that title ?Al Quran? but all readings are already ?The readings? which is vague because it can refer to any thing that can be read including the Quran.

Al Quran only inclines to read but never ever meant the reading because the reading means ??, "Qiraa"

Can u give me any reference to any verse which indicates that ?qiraa? means "reading" .

no I can?t, but you can consider me contributing with the humans to the conspiracy to fool humanity and themselves since Arabs existed on earth

because I think that ?quran? means ?reading? , like in the following verses

7517 Surely, upon Us rests its collection and its reading(quraana hu) .
7518 So when We read it(quraana hu), then follow thou its reading(quraana hu) .

thanks and salam.

this is the superiority of the language used in the Quran, this one of the things that stunned the arabs indeed, to use the name of the Quran in a miraculous way to indicate following it

Salam

unknownuser

Peace brother Ahmed,

can you please show me the list of Asmaa Allah Al Husna that are authorised from the Quran?

and please let me know how every name you will post is authorised

I have not done a detailed research on the names of Allah in al-qur'aan but the verses that come to mind are the following

5922 He is Allah; there is no other god beside Him. Knower of all secrets and declarations. He is Al-Rahman, Al-Raheem.
5923 He is Allah; there is no other god beside Him. Al-Malik, Al-Quddoos, Assalam, Al-Mumin, Al-Muhaymin, Al-Azeez, Al-Jabbar, Al-Mutakabbir. Allah be glorified; far above what they set up.
5924 He is Allah; Al-Khaliq, Al-Bari, Al-Musawwir. To Him belong the most beautiful names. Glorifying Him is everything in the heavens and the Earth. He is Al-Aziz, Al-Hakeem.

So this gives us a preliminary list of the beautiful names of Allah

Allah
Al-Rahman - The Almighty
Al-Raheem - The Merciful
Al-Malik - The King
Al-Quddoos - The Holy
Assalam - The Peace
Al-Mumin - The Faithful
Al-Muhaymin - The Supreme
Al-Aziz - The Noble
Al-Jabbar - The Powerful
Al-Mutakabbir - The Dignified
Al-Khaliq - The Creator
Al-Bari - The Initiator
Al-Musawwir - The Designer
Al-Hakeem - The Wise

Except the first name all others are ALSO His attributes and are referred to as His beautiful NAMES in the above verses. It follows that ALL attributes of Allah mentioned in al-qur'aan can also be His names.

Salm mate,

Thanks bro, this is the reply I expected, I was trying to you your own logic regarding the authority of the names

Now putting this names issue a side and let?s try to find out the orders ?to do and not to do? from the Quran, this is another subject that we may discuss later

Following link contains a list of some attributes of Allah mentioned in al-qur'aan along with identification of verses mentioning those attributes, which according to my understanding as stated above are also His beautiful names

http//www.islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm[/quote

Ok bro I agree that we can extract attributes about Allah from the Quran

This is another subject that we try to discuss again later

Now let?s put the two subjects ?His names & His attributes ? aside and concentrate on the ?Do and Do not?

In addition to these attributes/names of Allah, as brother Ahmed, and sister Myr recently brought to my attention, the following are also Allah's attributes/names mentioned in "al-qur'aan"

Al-Akram - The Most Generous (963)
Arham Al-Rahemeen - The Most Merciful of all the merciful (7151, 1264, 1292, 2183)

Great bro, I have no problem to assume the above

By mentioning His attributes in "al-qur'aan" Allah authorizes us to use them for His glorification.

again, I agree with the above as long as we can find out the right attributes from the Quran, because with most attributes Allah never told us that is an attribute of Mine

Readers please note that Allah has NEVER mentioned the attribute "akbar" for Himself in "al-qur'aan".

I have never ever suggested that saying Allah Akabr is an attribute, and this is where we are having some misunderstanding, you agree that Allah told us to Do and Not to do many things in the Quran

Let?s consider the DOs first

One of the Dos is ?me, you and all believers? to Nuqim Al Salat, right?

One of the Dos is ?me, you and all believers? to Nusabih Allah, right?

One of the Dos is ?me, you and all believers? to Nahmadu Allah, right?

One of the Dos is ?me, you and all believers? to Nashkur Allah, right?

One of the Dos is ?me, you and all believers? to Nukabir Allah, right?, I?m using first person ?Nu?

Can you please tell me briefly, how we can do all the above, thanks

Brother Ahmed, now that I have fallen in your "trap", what "surprise" do you have for me ? just kidding bro ! lol

no traps mate, you answered the question as I expected exactly, but I?m not sure about the lots of the few questions I asked here, at the end of the day bro we are looking for the truth and we need to feel comfortable believing in that truth as long as we can handle it, we can only handle it if we are sensible and use the common sense, not much really is required to achieve that really

Peace

unknownuser

Peace brother Ahmed,

Let?s consider the DOs first

One of the Dos is ?me, you and all believers? to Nuqim Al Salat, right?

One of the Dos is ?me, you and all believers? to Nusabih Allah, right?

One of the Dos is ?me, you and all believers? to Nahmadu Allah, right?

One of the Dos is ?me, you and all believers? to Nashkur Allah, right?

One of the Dos is ?me, you and all believers? to Nukabir Allah, right?, I?m using first person ?Nu?

Can you please tell me briefly, how we can do all the above, thanks

When we are asked by Allah to do something in "al-qur'aan", we submit by doing it according to how Allah tells us to do it in "al-qur'aan" and authorizes it in "al-qur'aan". We cannot INVENT our own way which is not authorized by Allah. Remember, relevant to our guidance, "al-qur'aan" is fully detailed, contains every example, is complete, and Allah does not neglect anything from it, nor does He forget.

413 A Scripture whose verses are explained in detail (fussilat), a compilation in Arabic for a people who know.

Now coming to your questions

We "nuqim al-salat" by turning towards Allah, reciting and understanding "al-qur'aan", thereby hearing it and then humbly obeying what Allah tells us in "al-qur'aan"

We dont "nuqim al-salat" just by saying "aqeem al-salat".

We "nusabih Allah" by saying the beautiful names of Allah mentioned in al-qur'aan. We can also say or "subhana Allah", as those phrases are mentioned in al-qur'aan.

We cannot "nusabih Allah" by saying names/attributes not mentioned by Allah for Himself in al-qur'aan.

We "nahmadu Allah" by saying "alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-'alameena" and also by saying His beautiful names mentioned in al-qur'aan.

We cannot "nahmadu Allah" by saying names/attributes not mentioned by Allah for Himself in al-qur'aan.

We "nashkur Allah" by saying as that is how He tells us in al-qur'aan.

We cannot "nashkur Allah" by saying "Allahu Shakir" or "Allahu Shakoor" as that will be absurd. We can however "nusabih Allah" or "nahmadu Allah" by saying "Allahu Shakir" or "Allahu Shakoor".

We "nukabir Allah" by saying His beautiful names, as His beautiful names mention His ABSOLUTE attributes that no one else can have to the same degree. We can also "nukabir Allah" by saying "Allahu Akram" or "Allahu Arham Al-Rahemeen" as these superlative attributes are mentioned by Allah for Himself in al-qur'aan.

We cannot "nukabir Allah" by inventing an attribute/name for Allah, not mentioned in al-qur'aan, thereby not authorized by Him. When someone says "Allahu akbar" then "akbar" becomes an adjective or an attribute of Allah, which is not authorized by Allah in al-qur'aan.

"akbar" is a superlative.

SUPERLATIVE Expressing the highest or lowest degree of the quality, manner, etc., denoted by an adjective or an adverb.

ADJECTIVE Added to a substantive as an attribute; a word that expresses an attribute of something

NAME A descriptive or qualifying appellation or attribute given to a person or thing, on account of a character or acts. Example His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father.

Get it brother Ahmed ? By using "akbar" in "Allahu akbar" it becomes an attribute/name of Allah.

Allah NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER mentions "akbar" to describe Himself or as an attribute for Himself in al-qur'aan. Do you think Allah forgot ?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

The God is above "Names". The God is not never "limited" by a such a thing. Likewise, if the God were to write a physical book, the trees as pens and the oceans as ink theywould run out before the God stopped writing.

Al Kitaab does mean "the book", but keeping in mind the above, we have to understand that the book is pointing to the Universe itself. When one attempts to proclaim guidance from the universe/life, that is quran, but in otder to find out if it is "quran" from God, we have to verify it, we have to TEST it.

Fahad1

salam brother AhmedBahgat.

Salam brother darbaari

How do you say the above bro, why you are translating ?Al Quran?, to ?The Reading? and not calling it ?The Writing??,

why would i translate "al quran" to "writing" , when it means "reading" .

remember, it is also called ?Al Kitab?, and we are 100% certain that Al kitab is a collection of writings, while we are not certain that Quran means ?Reading??

i m 100% certain that quran means reading .

Ka Ta Ba? root in Arabic is ?To write?, therefore based on that logic, The Quran should be called ?The Writing? not ?The Reading?, do you agree mate?

the written aspect of the God's word is called al kitab/the writing . when read, it is called al quran/the reading .

Here is a verse calling it Kitab and Quran at the same time

YUSUFALI A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

PICKTHAL A Scripture whereof the verses are expounded, a Lecture in Arabic for people who have knowledge,

SHAKIR A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know

(3)

in this verse , kitab and quran are not the same , but the verse is saying that "arabic quran" is the explanation of verses of kitab . which is further confirmed by 1037

1037 This Quran/Reading could not have been produced by other than God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and an explanation of the Kitab/Book in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.

see , the quran and kitab are not the same , but the quran/reading is an explanation of the kitab/written/book . both are not the same .

A final note in here, if you look at the translations by these populars translators you will see that Yusuf Ali and Shakir translated Quran to Quran, Pickthal however translated Quran to Lecture

do you think that Lecture means Reading? and why you think Yusuf Ali and Shakir translated Quran to Quran?

i dunno .

Thirdly when you answered them back that it is the Quran , what did you achieve exactly other than wasting time? Trying to be smart but back to square one? I don?t really get it bro, no disrespect here, I guess the conversation between you and that person will be diverted to why you are calling it reading but not Quran?, that is an additional waste of time bro, and the outcome will always be

It is that book called Quran,

the only reason i use the word "Koran" is to prevent the discussion from going off topic . if in a middle of a discussion(about some other topic) , i use the word "reading" or "book" , then the other person will arguing whether it is a title or an attribute . this will be due to lack of awareness on the other person's part .

Do you think the ones who name it ?Al Quran?, are Kuffar?, or let?s put this way Do you think the ones who name it ?Al Quran?, are committing a sin?

i dont know their intentions . those who are delibrately naming it "Quran" even after realizing that it means "reading" would be committing a sin .

darbaari wrote
This is the verse that was preventing me to accept that ?Al Quran? means ?the Reading?. But later , I found out that according to the Koran , the reading can be read , like the writing can be written (279) or a punishment can be punished (5115) . it might not make sense to an average human , but it makes sense in the Koran?s language .

AB wrote
then based on your logic, The Qiraa should be the one to read, not the Quran, because again Quran never meaning reading but Qiraa, here is an online example
Uhibbu Al Qira'a ?
I Love Reading! Volumes 1 & 2

not my logic , but the ayaat's logic . i gave u the verse references .

and i prefer the example in 7517-18 over the online example .

I have zillions of examples to show you online,

a single example from the ayaat ? the only example is in 7517-18 , which means "reading" .

but I have an important question to you

Do you think those who write these children books are fooling the innocent children?, why do you think they lied at them and told them that Reading is Qiraa and not Quran?

To discourage them from reading the Quran you reckon?

Or it is a conspiracy that most Arabs (if not all) over all generations are contributing to it somehow?

Do you think those Arabs who call Reading Qiraa and not Quran are going to hell?

i dont know their intentions . in my opinion it is mostly because of misunderstanding on their part .

darbaari wrote
because I think that ?quran? means ?reading? , like in the following verses

7517 Surely, upon Us rests its collection and its reading(quraana hu) .
7518 So when We read it(quraana hu), then follow thou its reading(quraana hu) .

thanks and salam.

AB wrote
this is the superiority of the language used in the Quran, this one of the things that stunned the arabs indeed, to use the name of the Quran in a miraculous way to indicate following it

brother , these verses are not using the name "Quran" . but the words "quraana hu" simply means "its reading" . not "its Quran" .

thanks and salam . )

Fahad1

Peace be upon you all,

The God is above "Names". The God is not never "limited" by a such a thing. Likewise, if the God were to write a physical book, the trees as pens and the oceans as ink theywould run out before the God stopped writing.

Al Kitaab does mean "the book", but keeping in mind the above, we have to understand that the book is pointing to the Universe itself. When one attempts to proclaim guidance from the universe/life, that is quran, but in otder to find out if it is "quran" from God, we have to verify it, we have to TEST it.

salam all.
for discussion on "the book is the universe" or "the reading(quran) is not the title of any book" topic , CLICK HERE http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=66769#66769

thanks .

unknownuser

Peace brother Ahmed,

Just one comment on your lengthy post addressed to darbaari

Here is a logical argument. If 413 should be understood as follow

?A Book of which the verses has been explained, an Arabic Reading for a people who know?

Please note, the underline is what I think is right but is not related to our discussion here so let?s skip that, but wow bro, 431 now is very discriminate verse against the ones who don?t know Arabic

It says

A Book of which the verses has been explained
An Arabic Reading for a people who know

I. strangely. E. THIS BOOK IS ONLY FOR THE ONES WHO CAN READ ARABIC ? an Arabic Reading for a people who know?, while the fact of the matter is, most of the Quran readers are non Arabs and they read it in other languages but Arabic.

Now let?s look at it with what I believe is very accurate

?A Book of which the verses has been explained, an Arabic Quran for a people who know?

well, there is big difference in here, I?m sure many will deny it, but here we go

Now, 413 does not associate the book that have explained verses with Arabic reading for only the ones who know, because previously under the other concept, it means that only the ones who know how to perform ARABIC READING will receive the guidance from it. But I have seen many humans who don?t speak Arabic and understand the Quran far better than many native Arabic speakers.

Therefore, Quran is a name not an action of reading because 413 will mean ?A book of which verses has been explained, an Arabic Quran for the ones with knowledge?, those ones can be any one with any language as long as they read the Quran in their own language and gained knowledge with the will of Allah due to their sincerity. However I agree though that the name Quran incline an action of reading, but this inclination may be even false because it was never confirmed in thousands of years that the name Quran inclines an action to read, it was only a suggestion, we have never seen another book called Quran indeed, therefore it is a unique name that sure confused all of us because it was chosen by God not by humans.

Sorry bro, you have no logical argument to favor "Arabic Qur'aan" implying Qur'aan to be a proper name over "Arabic reading" in 413; both still mean that it is in Arabic, and to become one of the people having knowledge one will still have to learn Arabic !

Firstly, There is no "al-qur'aan" in this verse, just "qur'aan".

Secondly, in my understanding, "people who know" or "people having knowledge" are the people who have enough knowledge to understand the message of the Arabic qur'aan/reading, which implies that we should try to learn the Arabic language enough to understand its message. How can someone have a good understanding of the Arabic qur'aan without learning Arabic ? If we just rely on other's translations, then we are trusting the understanding of those other people, which could be wrong or flawed. We should learn enough basic Arabic so we can try to learn the meaning of the qur'aanic verses on our own, so that we can form our own understanding of what Allah is saying. Of course we should have discussions with fellow humans also, then follow the best meaning.

Most of the countries encourage learning of a second language. I had to learn English as a second language for education and career purposes. People are learning Spanish language in USA and people all over the world are learning English language. Why can't we also learn Arabic language to understand Allah's revelations for our guidance, which is more important than learning other languages for education or career purposes ?