salvation while refusing prophethood of Mohammed possible?
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thegod # so are u asserting there was no muhammad in history? have i said historical muhammad or traditional muhammad? i simply said in the prophethood of muhammad!
A prophet certainly recieved and committed al-quraan to writing. However, that process is simply deduced logically. Nothing in al-quraan tells us who that person was nor is that person relevant to our beings.
that said, what do u think happened to the muhammad in the verse u posted? did he exist? do u have any information of his background apart? and do u think this khatimunnabi has vanished without a trace? i am not saying he did or did not, but since u seem to be bent on distinguishing 1 from the other, i would like to hear what u have to say about him!
I believe the 'muhammad' mentioned 4 times in al-quraan are the personality types which any human being can achieve. I do not believe that he was only the prophet who recieved al-quraan. This is because the kalimaat and sunan of Allah do not change as do not the essence of humankind.
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Peace mquran. I find most of your dialogue,high-handed,illogical,arbitrary,biased and idealistic...But i will address your comments so hopefully people can learn from the dialogue...
The standard which is say the quran is fallible is by my own verfication...which i know you will not accept...So i will take the standard of the quran itself to critique the quran. The quran says it is a clear book,yet 1400 years later people are still debating what salat,hajj,prophethood is etc... . shock roll In the history of man no society has been run according to the 'quran only' system as far as i know. The quran says the deen which you follow will be sucessful over all deens...Is this even remotely true? Liberal Democracy is the dominant deen in the world today,and its a much better system than your so-called coherent quranic discourse mentioned in your posts. All people are flawed my friend,so if the quran is a coherent discourse for mankind it should cater for human deficiencies. Your suggestion that a true god can only be believed in from the quran ignores the bible,torah etc...and also suggests god can only speak through a 1400 year old arabic book. shock
The quran says produce a surah like it,then you ignore the verses of the scientific and spiritual community which are just as good and better...(einstein,niestchze,wayne teasdale,dalai lama etc,etc..) There are so many inconsistencies in this book if you regard it as for all time. In this way your criteria(the quran.) judges your own book(quran.) by verse 482 to not be all from god.
As for my own verse,those with open minds will know what it suggests,while those looking for fitna(chaos.) and taweel(far-fetched meanings.) will only know the true meanings if they open their minds.(37.) idea !
Peace all. -
Peace mquran. I find most of your dialogue,high-handed,illogical,arbitrary,biased and idealistic...But i will address your comments so hopefully people can learn from the dialogue...
And I find your discourse to be sorely lacking in hardcore substance. No worries though, when your view becomes currency to me, I will have a problem with your opinion and I think you feel the same about my views.
The standard which is say the quran is fallible is by my own verfication...which i know you will not accept...
How can I accept it when you refuse to articulate it?
So i will take the standard of the quran itself to critique the quran. The quran says it is a clear book,yet 1400 years later people are still debating what salat,hajj,prophethood is etc... is.
This is an indication of your academic integrity. Instead of engaging with al-quraan's OWN WORDS, you rely on debates of people who you encounter on the net. It's ok, the extent of your research will be manifest below.
In the history of man no society has been run according to the 'quran only' system as far as i know.
We're discussing al-quraan's teachings. The question of whether it's been applied isn't relevant to the discussion. Scraping the bottom of the barrell I see.
The quran says the deen which you follow will be sucessful over all deens...Is this even remotely true? Liberal Democracy is the dominant deen in the world today,and its a much better system than your so-called coherent quranic discourse has produced in your posts.
This is your refutation ? Chanting slogans ? So far, you have not dared to put forward a single argument telling us why al-quraan is not completely relevant. I don't understand why you find it so difficult confronting a 7th century text whose mind must completely inferior to yours.
As for verification of al-quraan's promise, will you take the promise in context? Did it say deen al-haqq will sprout out of thin air? My word, your casual reading really shows itself here. Al-quraan's assertion is verifiable when a certain criteria has been met.
All people are flawed my friend,so if the quran is a coherent discourse for mankind it should cater for human deficiencies. Your suggestion that a true god can only be believed in from the quran ignores the bible,torah etc...and also suggests god can only speak through a 1400 year old arabic book.
All people are flawed ? Kindly prove this. Since you're a person who said this, you must be flawed as well and your flaw might include this statement. So how I know you're right? And you call ME illogical ?!
Al-quraan does indeed address human deficiencies but for some people, there is no help unless they desist (a good example is 45/23).
We're talking about al-quraan now, throwing red herrings all over simply shows the poverty of your position.
The quran says produce a surah like it,then you ignore the verses of the scientific and spiritual community which are just as good and better...(einstein,niestchze,wayne teasdale,dalai lama etc,etc..) There are so many inconsistencies in this book if you regard it as for all time. In this way your criteria(the quran.) judges your own book(quran.) by verse 482 to not be all from god.
Are there so many ? Kindly produce them. It's so sad that you are so fearful of doing this. What is it you're afraid of, Enquirer?
As for my own verse,those with open minds will know what it suggests,while those looking for fitna(chaos.) and taweel(far-fetched meanings.) will only know the true meanings if they open their minds.(37.)
Taweel is 'FAR-FETCHED MEANINGS' ? This certainly shows the extent of your research. When you comment about extensive disagreements, its usually due to this type of approach. Far-fetched meanings ???!!!
Listen, I'm about done wasting my time unless you can actually engage with the text and point out its flaws and anachronisms. Enjoy yourself because you've found the right place to exert your complexes. Resist judgement all you want till of course, judgement really comes.
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Peace mq,
Good to see you on again. This discussion will go nowhere, as we have seen in the past. The same 'issues' have been recurring in so many threads, I can't begin to count 'em all.
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Peace mquran. Ok,i will start a new thread on the contradictions in the quran,and/or taking the quran as an idol. The rest of your post is basically emotion and hot air. Maybe savage carrot would like to participate as well.
Peace all. -
NadiaGood to see you on again.
And you.
This discussion will go nowhere, as we have seen in the past. The same 'issues' have been recurring in so many threads, I can't begin to count 'em all.
Well I expected more from people who are obviously very intelligent and above the notion of a religion. It's sad to see them simply constructing straw-men to attack while ignoring al-quraan itself. This has been useful as a thought experiment though.
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Enquirer Ok,i will start a new thread on the contradictions in the quran,and/or taking the quran as an idol. The rest of your post is basically emotion and hot air. Maybe savage carrot would like to participate as well
Before you do that, kindly try to go beyond the interpretative level which the 'far-fetched' nonsense which you throw about. That was very indicative of your poor analysis. If that's the kind of nonsense you want to play with, then please don't waste my time. If not, you're most welcome to enumerate the so-called contradictions.
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http//www28.brinkster.com/vyvyan/imgs/idols.jpg
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m
quran wrote
A prophet certainly recieved and committed al-quraan to writing. However, that process is simply deduced logically. Nothing in al-quraan tells us who that person was nor is that person relevant to our beings.so this prophet perhaps had a name?
mquran wrote
I believe the 'muhammad' mentioned 4 times in al-quraan are the personality types which any human being can achieve. I do not believe that he was only the prophet who recieved al-quraan. This is because the kalimaat and sunan of Allah do not change as do not the essence of humankind.again, do u think moosa, isa, sulayman etc mentioned in the quran are names of prophets? or are they personality types?
again, are u saying the present quran which v have is something which was revealed to multiple prophets? by saying the present quran i am not talking about the essence but the actual text!
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Salam Myr,
I noticed for some of you guys, you are having a lot of difficulties to accept the verses of Quran as clear as they are because they may sound "harsh" or "non-ethical" for the rest of the world.
I'm afraid you are right.
But the discussion in the thread was useful, wasnt it ? Personally I have learnt a lot which I couldn't otherwise learn.(For example that angels are actually our good emotions. ;D)As for your uncle,why dont you try code-19 ? If your uncle has some knowledge of probability, the miracle may help you convince him.
Btw, I happened to see one of your messages in which you are telling a "minimum" of 5 prayers per day has been mathematically proven to you.If the proof is other than the findings of A. Arik then can you plz inform me of it a little?
Peace.
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Salam ekabekir, all,
Salam Myr,
I noticed for some of you guys, you are having a lot of difficulties to accept the verses of Quran as clear as they are because they may sound "harsh" or "non-ethical" for the rest of the world.
I'm afraid you are right.
But the discussion in the thread was useful, wasnt it ? Personally I have learnt a lot which I couldn't otherwise learn.(For example that angels are actually our good emotions. ;D)As for your uncle,why dont you try code-19 ? If your uncle has some knowledge of probability, the miracle may help you convince him.
Btw, I happened to see one of your messages in which you are telling a "minimum" of 5 prayers per day has been mathematically proven to you.If the proof is other than the findings of A. Arik then can you plz inform me of it a little?
Peace.
I don't believe the angels are our good emotions if of course "good emotions" means good emotions and not God knows something else-) because in this forum defintions of words change on an ongoing basis-).
God the All-Mighty even describes their creation by two, three, and four wings so unless wings (ajnihattun in the verse) mean emotions-), I don't believe they are "good emotions". If you tell me angels make us feel good, I don't believe it either because it is God the All-Mighty only who decides or enactes in us the good and the bad feelings based on our faith in HIM, our choices, and our actions. Angels are only a means and their missions are described in Quran. Some like to call them "forces", others "emotions", but for me, I will stick with their description in the Quran-).Regarding my uncle, I have never preached to him and that's why I re-posted what I really wrote about him to show how what we sometimes write can be distorded. In fact, I have never preached to my family but answered their questions when they needed to understand certain events happening in the islamic world or related to Islam. My uncle discovered the Quran before me and studied it much deeper ahead before me. He knew about the 19 code and he was the one who actually asked me to look at it and compare it with some studies by some Jewish scholars. Seriously Brother, I try to worry about my neck only and not his. I brought his example only to show that some people would openly reject the Quran revelation even when they ontheir own, come across it and in details. Now it turned out that a preacher is needed and that a blame for rejecting the guidance can be put on the preacher-) poor prophets and messengers, the majority who rejected their message can now blame it on their failure to convey the message while the minority who believed had maybe an extra sense of listening!!
For the prayers per day, it is the work/findings of Dr. Fazly that I know based on the Quran, but remember, the more we pray the better it is for our soul. And God the All-Mighty knows best. Peace. Myr.
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The quran says it is a clear book,yet 1400 years later people are still debating what salat,hajj,prophethood is etc... . shock roll
Peace
What do you mean that the Quran says it is a clear book?, i guess what clear meant to you?
Thanks
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salam
I don't believe the angels are our good emotions
Neither do I.That's why I put the smily ;D
peace
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Peace be upon you Myr,
NO need to be sarcastic Kyle
No offense intended, just trying to put this in the right context. Tryin to demystify this "character type" that many have has made into the Holy Savior.
please re-read the messages to see that we are not talking about following the man as such but about the man mission to bring the Quran.
The title of the thread indicates we are talking about this man 1400 years ago that none of us met or can prove. I dont doubt that there was an enlightened person who brought spirituality to people, but I dont suspect his name was Muhammad, nor do I think it matters what his name was. What is important is the message, which is meant to teach us that we ALL have the ability to intuit the God's message within.
If you don't believe in the Quran, the logic that follows is you don't believe that Mohamed was a prophet and messenger and verse 2285 is clear on the messengers but some would have a entire philosophy to prove there is no need to believe in all the messengers, known and unknown.
I trust in that which is descended upon me and those before me, not just a book called "Koran", just as that book says I should. Yet so many uphold this book as the only source of guidance as if they have never read that verse. Nor the verse that states not to go after that which you have NO KNOWLEDGE. I have never met nor seen proof of the man named Muhammad Ibn Abdullah, so I will not bear witness to such a thing. I can only follow the universal laws which can be verified in everyday experience and by doing so I automatically am following the God's messengers, those we are told about and those we are not. The word "muhammad" is a charater type we must emulate, not a human we must follow.
I mentioned your verse above in my first message and made comments as to why we should believe in all the messengers and the books even if we did not meet them in person or had the books in front of us
The only book to worry about is the book that is always in front of us , so that we may verify it. It as only one verse, the UNI-VERSE. All other writings are composed from that. This is why the God always points us to the universe;
"We shall show you the signs in the horizons to within your spirits until yuo KNOW it is the truth"
and the logic for this belief is also repeated in your message above
Please elaborate.
therefore if Quran is denied, the messenger is denied and "automatically" it is denying the truth.
I disagree. The messengers were all sent with the same message, Universal Law. Someone wrote this book called "Koran" to help others understand this. Just as people wrote other books for the same purpose. If one gets to the goal by other means the reward is still the same. Just as this "Koran" states that no matter what you call yourself, if you believe in the God, the ending time, and live righteously, you will have your reward with your Lord.
Some would disagree with this logic and would like to see all the books and the messengers in front of them-)
All that we need IS in front of us. All humans from the beginning until now, in all places of the earth are enlightened by the same Sun in the sky.
Peace and Blessings to you as well.
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Peace idolfree. Very well explained. ) Whoever tries to follow the true universal laws will be a peaceful person.(muslim.) No need for extra illogical beliefs or harmful rituals...A persons' peaceful/rational behaviour mirrors his beliefs,not the other way round with arbitrary/illogical articles of faith which can lead to questionable behaviour...
A person who lives his/her life peacefully and rationally will be successful(relatively speaking.) even if they dont believe/accept/follow literally muhammed,jesus,the quran,or even the god concept(fake one.) of the theologians and sectarians.
Peace all. Ps; logically not even half of the literal beliefs from the quran stand up to scrutiny and verification,but our own experiences of ourselves interacting with the universe can surely be validified,and verified first hand. -
it is not just an issue of quran being word of god...the existence of angels and djinns...the existence of muhammad...but perhaps more of an issue of monotheism against other 'theisms'! those who believe in other 'theisms' would like to believe that everything is symbolic...and that humans can attain to 'godhood'...some do admit to this...others do not!
more or less the arguments used is the same as that which those who denied muhammad and the message did proofs for quran...why did angels not accompany muhammad....why do they not see god plainly...throughout the ages amny of those who turned away from god have used the same excuses! ;D
but the quran makes it quite clear that they have to follow that which has been revaled to muhammad and not that which their nafs tells them to! ;D
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Peace be upon you Myr,
I think Brother we are repeating the same thing again and again. The majority here agrees that we are not talking about the person but the prophethood of that person and nobody is taking him as a "holy savior", we should stick to the subject of this debate. Whether you don't want to call him Mohamed, but "an enlightened person" instead (as per your own message below), this won't change the subject of this debate nor the fact that the Quran was revealed to someone whose name was Mohamed and Quran narrates even part of his life.
The highlighted sections are conflicting. I have verified enough of this reaading(quran) to state that an enlightened person wrote it, none of us can confirm his name. The word "muhammad" is as much a name in regards to this book as "ahmad". (...whose name shall be ahmad...)
And please don't come to tell me that this is tradition or sunni or God knows what else-) for me there is no word gymnastics for the clear verses, Mohamed is Mohamed-).
..whose name shall be ahmad..
As for the debate on Mohamed name meaning and the meanings of Moses, Jesus etc. and that instead of names these are characters and God knows what else-- I am sorry -- it does not make sense to me-).
Respected.
But again, let us agree to disagree as each of us is entitled to his/her own understanding of the issue.
Sure, but we will never get any unity out of agreeing to disagree. Debate will show truth from falsehood.
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hello idolater
Just as this "Koran" states that no matter what you call yourself, if you believe in the God, the ending time, and live righteously, you will have your reward with your Lord.
Don't talk bunk
Koran also states that those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and those who believe in trinity are in true kafirs (rejectors).
So acc. to Koran Pope John Paul II for instance is nothing but a Hell Creature.
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Whoever tries to follow the true universal laws will be a peaceful person.(muslim.) No need for extra illogical beliefs or harmful rituals...A persons' peaceful/rational behaviour mirrors his beliefs,not the other way round with arbitrary/illogical articles of faith which can lead to questionable behaviour...
A person who lives his/her life peacefully and rationally will be successful(relatively speaking.) even if they dont believe/accept/follow literally muhammed,jesus,the quran,or even the god concept(fake one.) of the theologians and sectarians.
Peace all. Ps; logically not even half of the literal beliefs from the quran stand up to scrutiny and verification,but our own experiences of ourselves interacting with the universe can surely be validified,and verified first hand.hi,
It is not you but Allah who has determined the criteria for salvation.The rest is nothing but your wishful thinking.