Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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Bmbmm, that's certainly the crux of the matter but our professor of moral philosophy here thinks al-quraan is outdated because it prescribes certain punishements. Ask him, since he's your friend
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Does the fact that something pre-exist something else make the newer thing better?
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If so, how is it better ? Provide a measurement for betterness?
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What makes a law effective?
These are simple questions which I guranteee your friend will not answer.
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Bmbmm, that's certainly the crux of the matter but our professor of moral philosophy here thinks al-quraan is outdated because it prescribes certain punishements. Ask him, since he's your friend
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Does the fact that something pre-exist something else make the newer thing better?
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If so, how is it better ? Provide a measurement for betterness?
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What makes a law effective?
These are simple questions which I guranteee your friend will not answer.
I think he will and I hope everything get more clear, hopefully ;D
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Peace enquirer,
Peace zenje. Just for my curiousity...If a person had the same 'moral' rules that you say the quran propogates,but he arrived at them independently (without the quran.),what would you make of him?...(assume this person has either not come across the quran,or has only had access to very 'poor'/incorrect translations?)...
Thank you...I thought I had clarified before, but here it is... First, it's between this person and his Creator. The way I see it, he has nothing to fear. Secondly, if this is in regard to my post earlier, please note that I had mentioned an example of people who adamantly refuse/deny quran. Not someone who has no access or not read it.
I hope this helps.
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Peace mquran and all. Answers to your your questions;
- current systems are not always better than previous systems and vice versa..
- the measurement for 'betterness' is the 'practical' success of a certain system compared to another.
- A law is effective if it achieves its aims,and the aims should be human benefit.
There you go...i somehow feel you will still find fault with something i have said...
You also showed your guarantee i wouldnt answer to be wrong,and emotionally presumptous...maybe you should think about your opinions more,and what you post...if you can mistakes in what you assumed my first post in the thread was,and that i wouldnt reply to your 3 questions...then maybe you can make mistakes in interpreting the quran...just a thought. -
Peace zenje. Just to clarify a point, what about someone who has only come across very poor translations,and so rejects these poor translations...and continues living his life according to 'quranic' morals which he has derived from his own experiences and intelligence? Thank you.
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Peace enquirer and all
I've tried hard not to get involved in this thread. I had to bite though. I'm trying to help you out here, enquirer, and explain to you why so many people have a problem with what you are doing. I can see three reasons
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You very casually toss out alleged contradictions without giving verse numbers, without posting your translation of the verses, and without explaining why you think its a contradiction. You can't just toss out 10 "contradictions" in one sentence and then ask for someone to clear up the "contradiction" when you yourself haven't pointed out why they are contradictions. It is very intellectually dishonest or lazy, or both.
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When people respond to your alleged contradictions, you either a) ignore them, b) smugly dismiss them, or c) accuse them of being emotional/defensive. This, again, is intellectually dishonest. Respond to the arguments! Forget the people. Why resort to ad hominem attacks? (I agree that others do that in here as well, so please don't think I'm being biased, I don't agree with a lot of methods in here, including those of AhmedBagat's). You post an alleged contradiction; someone responds. Why not counter their response? This is how healthy debate works and this is how we come to understandings. And your consistent failure to do this raises a lot of eyebrows, including mine, and makes us wonder, "does he actually want to have a fruitful discussion or is there some other motive here?"
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You tend to assume a lot of things about the posters here. Assuming really gets us nowhere, especially in a forum like this where there are so many diverse beliefs/philosophies. For example, you keep bringing up this whole "don't take the entire Qur'an literally" idea. I honestly don't know a single person in here who takes the Qur'an 100% literally. This is a straw man you have created. When God says He sits on his Arsh (Throne), do we take that literally? I don't know a single person who thinks so. So really, continually going on and on about "dont take it all literally" really doesn't add much to the discussion as we, in a sense, already agree with you.
Peace.
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There you go...i somehow feel you will still find fault with something i have said...
Fault? I have further questions to ask, sure but because God lives inside your heart, I expect your answers to be faultless
And no, I'm not through yet.
You also showed your guarantee i wouldnt answer to be wrong,and emotionally presumptous...
Can you please show me where I guranteed this? I can't find it for some reason.
maybe you should think about your opinions more,and what you post...if you can mistakes in what you assumed my first post in the thread was,and that i wouldnt reply to your 3 questions...then maybe you can make mistakes in interpreting the quran...just a thought
Maybe I can make mistakes? There's no maybe about it. I CAN and HAVE made mistakes. However, what I've been asking you and the 'quranic relativist' camp is, kindly bring evidence to prove my points wrong. Now, lets move on to your questions, shall we
- current systems are not always better than previous systems and vice versa
Duly noted.
2)the measurement for 'betterness' is the 'practical' success of a certain system compared to another
Excellent. Can you please describe or give examples of this practical 'success' (sucess being the operative word in this question).
- A law is effective if it achieves its aims,and the aims should be human benefit.
Kindly provide a definition for 'benefit'. Does it refer to a hedonistic benefit or a benefit pertaining to fulfilment of needs?
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Peace zenje. Just to clarify a point, what about someone who has only come across very poor translations,and so rejects these poor translations...and continues living his life according to 'quranic' morals which he has derived from his own experiences and intelligence? Thank you.
Zenje will have a better answer , I'm sure but if you care to know, my answer is simply that if anyone reads al-quraan sincerely but only had access to poor translations and rejects them (like 'kill disbelievers' nonsense), then Quranically, Allah will not judge him badly. Al-Quraan has never posited itself as a MUST-have for salvation. However, if al-quraan really does strike one as ultimate truth and he rejects it, he will then be a disbeliever.
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Peace zenje. Just to clarify a point, what about someone who has only come across very poor translations,and so rejects these poor translations...and continues living his life according to 'quranic' morals which he has derived from his own experiences and intelligence? Thank you.
Zenje will have a better answer , I'm sure but if you care to know, my answer is simply that if anyone reads al-quraan sincerely but only had access to poor translations and rejects them (like 'kill disbelievers' nonsense), then Quranically, Allah will not judge him badly. Al-Quraan has never posited itself as a MUST-have for salvation. However, if al-quraan really does strike one as ultimate truth and he rejects it, he will then be a disbeliever.
Nope, I don't have a better answer, that sums it up quite good. ;D As I said before, good/poor translations do not guide/misguide the person... think about it.
Peace
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In regard to the heading of this thread... whatever is done, whether the thread is locked, or changed or another created for this or a different purpose... we will have the same end result as has happened here, and other similar threads. For anyone trying to find out what this thread is about or seeking actual contradictions, etc... won't have to go far through it to see what it's about.
The important thing to remember is to keep the discussions/debates within the rules of the forum.
Peace to all.
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Peace cavemandoctor. I assumed that many of the members already knew the verse numbers or,can quote them.( i havent got the time to find them all.) i thought the contradictions i posted were self-explanatory (and many were not addressed,as danish pointed out.) ,but if the inconsistency is not clear to you,then i will clarify upon your request...
I ignored some posters because they were rude,or continually seemed not to read my posts properly,and got emotional...if you noticed with the poster who was civil and not emotional ( poster openmind.) I tried to respond slowly,and form a dialogue and discussion,going through the points step by step and answering his questions...
I did not make assuptions about the forum members..I know the general views of a lot of the members here,and i always clarified 'some' members believe in some verses literally,not all..so i did not generalise.
I was not just saying dont take the whole quran literally,i was saying if you take many of the verses literally then the book becomes inconsistent and contradictory...And that is not a straw-man argument.
I notice that many think that they can question a persons intellectual integrity,or honesty just on the basis of a few posts,and without taking into account the circumstances/context of the posts,the posters actual real view-point,or the negative manners of some of the posters responding to their posts....
You dont know anyone that believes in literal handchopping,lashes,physical angels,sticks into snakes etc? (i didnt just say the allah on a throne,in the sky,over the water verse.)... I could call that intellectually dis-honest...but i will not,as i will take into account that you are human,and i wont question your integrity and intentions...
peace all. -
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peace mquran and zenje. Ok,your explanation in your last post is one i find reasonably satisfactory...(regarding the positive plight of someone with access to only poor translations who rejects these,while still being 'moral'.)
I will answer your questions in a while mquran...It would be nice if you also could addresses some of my comments...or even re-read some of your posts...
peace all. -
peace mquran and zenje. Ok,your explanation in your last post is one i find reasonably satisfactory...(regarding the positive plight of someone with access to only poor translations who rejects these,while still being 'moral'.)
No offense to you, but what you find 'reasonably satisfactory' isn't what I'm aiming for. I'm aiming to expose the teachings of al-quraan which you have misrepresented due to a glaring lack of research.
I will answer your questions in a while mquran...It would be nice if you also could addresses some of my comments...or even re-read some of your posts...
Answer them at your convenience as long as you don't shirk your responsibility which was created by the genesis of your discourse. In other words, if you can interrogate (and you can, by all means) then you can answer.
I tell you what, lets do it 'i go you go'. If you can pose one question for me, I'd like you to answer this
- what is a teaching of al-quraan which is 'harmful'.
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Peace mquran...no offense?! Dont worry,im sure no-one finds you offensive? Do you have a responsibility to read and address the comments i have made to you? Your discourse is not needed,my previous posts have already addressed what i find harmful in the quran...If you can/want to,then refute them point by point.
peace all. ps;you did guarantee that i wouldnt answer your three questions ( see your post at 7;23 pm to bmbmm.),and then you denyed doing this?! I suggest you read and research your own posts,rather than making 'unfounded' assumptions about my research. Another poster wrote in another thread about 'ego' getting in the way of a decent discourse...well i dont want it to get to that level. (if it hasnt already.) I find your dialogue 'style' very innappropriate,but ironically i do feel you have some very good points to make,and i agree with some of them...but walking the walk is the thing,not talking the talk... -
Peace mquran. So we can never even make a slight assumption in our 'research'? I think the assumption that a lot of the members (or even some.) know the place and verse numbers of what i quoted,is reasonably accurate,no?
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Peace mquran...no offense?! Dont worry,im sure no-one finds you offensive?
Don't know. Maybe. If they do, I'm ready to listen to why and when.
Do you have a responsibility to read and address the comments i have made to you?
Sure. Remind me if I fail to do so, please.
Your discourse is not needed,my previous posts have already addressed what i find harmful in the quran...If you can/want to,then refute them point by point.
Would you mind naming ONE thing for me please? I really do not have the time to go through combing through your posts. Let me assist you by assuming to ask
Do you find hand-chopping harmful ?
If so, we can start our deconstruction there.
peace all. ps;you did guarantee that i wouldnt answer your three questions ( see your post at 7;23 pm to bmbmm.),and then you denyed doing this?!
Ah that gurantee. Ok. I admit to that and I was wrong. You did answer, masha Allah. Lets hope you keep answering, especially to the post of mine replying to your posts. That thread will go to interesting places, I can assure you
I suggest you read and research your own posts,rather than making 'unfounded' assumptions about my research. Another poster wrote in another thread about 'ego' getting in the way of a decent discourse...well i dont want it to get to that level. (if it hasnt already.) I find your dialogue 'style' very innappropriate,but ironically i do feel you have some very good points to make,and i agree with some of them...but walking the walk is the thing,not talking the talk...
Can I ask you Is not acknowledging or responding (if you're unable to respond which is usually the case) to someone who has taken the trouble to respond to you appropriate or not?
You're meant to be a proponent of 'open-mindedness' and 'goodness'. Wonderful. Does that open-mindedness include the possibility that al-quraan is indeed God's teachings to humankind for all time?
I'm glad we're finally talking. It's good to talk
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Peace mquran. So we can never even make a slight assumption in our 'research'? I think the assumption that a lot of the members (or even some.) know the place and verse numbers of what i quoted,is reasonably accurate,no?
Is it your place to evaluate how reasonable it is or should you treat other people's beliefs with the greatest care? You're not criticising someone's favourite trashy novel, are you? If you care about your fellow human beings, shouldn't you introduce your criticism (to say nothing of answering counter-criticisms which you never do) in the most complete way?