Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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Arnold Like words as jinn, mailik-ah, sjeitan, masjid, salaat, all have their own meanings in the ancient arabic language. But most people read them as fixed titles, the meaning already filled-in, pre-programmed. And by not admitting this, are stuck in their views.
Arnold, your views are really very profound. Al-quraan, I believe, has a constant meaning for each of its concept. The trick is go through al-quraan in the process of tasreef and acquire the meaning in your mind and to let go of preconcieved notions. I notice this happening to me (albeit in a very limited way) after learning Arabic.
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Peace arnoldyasin. Yes,we all have shortcomings in our knowledge and/or aspects of the 'pre-conceived' thinking,or 'glasses' you talk of...
Note i have commended certain interpretations by idol-free,tay,yourself and many,many others who do not agree with me on many other issues...I have stated that my opinions are just that...my opinions...My job is to verify and learn from life,and others can also do that...
I have learnt (especially after this thread!!!) that trying to ascertain a persons 'total' or 'general character' from his posts alone is a potentially 'flawed' exercise...
I also consider ones practical morality and behaviour to be a better indication of a 'reasonable' system of beliefs,than just how a person talks or writes...( note;thats not a criticism of anybody personally,just my observation and experience.)
peace all. ps;mquran,why i responded to you,and one of the reasons i created this thread was that i felt,in my opinion,that some interpretations of the quran were/are inconsistent,contradictory and harmful...Take it easy and peace to you...I think you have just misunderstood me...I do see some good logic and rational in some of your interpretations and comments...but i also see some negative aspects too...
I reserve the right to dialogue when i feel that the dialogue will be productive and/or peaceful...pps;I have also apologised on about three seperate occasions if i was unnecessarily harsh or insensitive...and i have given my reasons for not replying to all responses in some of my previous posts... -
Enquirer I reserve the right to dialogue when i feel that the dialogue will be productive and/or peaceful...
And self-serving, lets never forget that
ps;mquran,why i responded to you,and one of the reasons i created this thread was that i felt,in my opinion,that some interpretations of the quran were/are inconsistent,contradictory and harmful...Take it easy and peace to you...I think you have just misunderstood me...I do see some good logic and rational in some of your interpretations and comments...but i also see some negative aspects
I am taking it easy, don't worry. The reason i'm repeating these questions now is to show people that at the end of the day, the 'rationalist' has no leg to stand on. What is 'harmful', I keep asking you? You cannot answer because 'harmful' is ultimately 'enquirer's opinion of harmful'. By the way, you said al-quraan was harmful at the beginning, not its interpretation. Why should I , as an advocate of al-quraan impose a false interpretive method onto al-quraan to please you, a guy who doesn't even know what harmful means?
If you see some 'negative aspects', bring them forward. Is it 'decent' and 'good' of you to keep them to yourself?
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Peace all. My opinions and answers which are being asked for,are in my previous posts and in other threads....
'Harm' has a 'subjective' and 'objective' element to it,in my view...
The quran is,in itself,probably neutral...its how you interpret and apply it,that makes the harm or the benefit...
I dont expect,or want people to change their views to please me...but to verify if their views are practically moral and rational upon reflection,if they so wish...(including myself,with my own views.) I dont view that i have to 'out-debate' or 'win' debates,as i view this as potentially 'flawed',subjective,and not always conducive to getting an actual 'truth', or a 'correct view' of the overall situation...
peace all. -
Peace all. My opinions and answers which are being asked for,are in my previous posts and in other threads....
'Harm' has a 'subjective' and 'objective' element to it,in my view...Ah, how very profound. Can you tell me of the 'objective element' please since by definition, thats the element we share?
The quran is,in itself,probably neutral...its how you interpret and apply it,that makes the harm or the benefit...
Ah, your profundity amazes me yet again. Can you please show me how al-quraan is neutral? When it says 'be good to your parents', does it actually mean 'be neutral to your parents' or am I totally missing your point?
I dont expect,or want people to change their views to please me...
Good, then you won't be disappointed.
but to verify if their views are practically moral and rational upon reflection,if they so wish...(including myself,with my own views.)
Difficult to do that unless one is forthright enough to define 'moral' and 'rational', something you're clearly not up to.
I dont view that i have to 'out-debate' or 'win' debates,as i view this as potentially 'flawed',subjective,and not always conducive to getting an actual 'truth', or a 'correct view' of the overall situation...
Spoken like a true Lote-Tree. Did you experience a conversion of sorts since last week when you were quite adamant in showing what an 'idol' the Quran was, how outdated, totally outmoded by science etc? Did those Krishna Consciousness boys on Oxford Street get to you or something?
How do you verify a 'truth' ?
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Peace mquran. I will leave you to read my previous posts (if you wish.) as these have most of my thoughts and opinions in them...
As ive stated before,if i feel there is benefit/peace in discussing in detail,i will do so..............no compulsion in the deen...
Peace all. -
Peace mquran. I will leave you to read my previous posts (if you wish.) as these have most of my thoughts and opinions in them...
Enquirer, i've been through most of your rants and find them as I told you before, empty.
As ive stated before,if i feel there is benefit/peace in discussing in detail,i will do so..............no compulsion in the deen...
Of course no compulsion. This is about respect rather. It was you who came with the mother of all rhetoric trying to show us how above religion you are. Well if you can't even define your own terms, you can't really know what you're talking about, can you? I think this will be last my post to you. You've really destroyed my perception of the non-book theist type. They usually have so much to contribute due to their deep thought. Not you though, your 25 years or 50 or whatever didn't amount to much, if anything..peace out.
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Peace mquran. Dont let me alter your perception of the non-book theist types...
Im sure there are others that will debate and discuss with you in a positive,beneficial way...I just feel our dialogues didnt do a lot of good,because of contrasting styles....I dont claim to represent,and may not be representative of all, or even many of the theist,non-book types you mentioned....i still feel you have not understood my position,and i still feel you have some good ideas and opinions on quran...I just feel our different ways of discussing are currently 'incompatible'....
Peace to you as well. No hard feelings from me brother... -
Darbari; I feel we are getting bogged down again,i have clarified my position now several times ..i am not trying to convert you to my exact way of thinking,and you have not converted me to your exact way of thinking,you can verify for yourself and i can verify for myself,i think thats fair...if you want to believe certain things about the quran then thats fine to me,as long as you live your life with good intentions and practically follow good morality...In my posts i feel i have answered some of your questions,...
if u can please copy/paste your answers here , cuz i cant find them . can u also tell us what were the questions which you answered ?
if you feel you want to refute some of my statements then do so...
i m itching to refute your statements , just waiting for u to reply to my first refutation .
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Bmbmm I think the title "Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?" made some people felt like there ball being crushed . I am glad eq put a Question Mark (?) after it. Take it easy folks, its just a question to ponder. I believe if a Christian or a Jew as question like this would not have good so much rude replies.
Take it easy? How much easier do you want it? So far, everything your friend has deigned to mention has been answered and his response asked for. However, he doesn't see it befitting his station as an enlightened seeker (sic) to respond to us deluded plebs. It's not a question of ease but of decency that your friend has none.
I don't want to talk on behalf of my friend. However, since you suggested he do not have decency. Could you kindly give me an example? Also, I think he sometimes do indeed get pissed off by the intolerence and rude outcome of discussing the nature of the Quran. We shouldn't have this Salafi/Sunni etc. etc. rude reflection upon contemplating on the true nature of the Quran, if we do not disagree -\
Peace
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Hello all,
AhmedBaghat?s fetish and frustrated lengthy rebuttals were perplexed and steamed out in both the cases I presented above, venturing out in circles to distinguish time periods and events in which those verses speak of, with a touch of tasty fruits and rotten blah blahs, and guilty of core concerns unresolved. I hope this time he won?t sweat as much for it?ll make it simpler in his case, for time, place and event mustn?t be a concern because
The Quran challenges mankind to bring a (one) surah like it (223 and 103
Khalifa
If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon your own witnesses against GOD, if you are truthful.Yusuf Ali
And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides God, if your (doubts) are true.Pickthal
And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave, then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful."Progressive Muslims"
And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.Khalifa
If they say, "He fabricated it," say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."Yusuf Ali
Or do they say, "He forged it"? say "Bring then a Sura like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can besides God, if it be ye speak the truth!"Pickthal
Or say they He hath invented it ? Say Then bring a surah like unto it, and call on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful."Progressive Muslims"
Or do they say he invented it? Say "Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!"Not satisfied, the Quran further challenges to bring yet another 10 surahs instead of one in precisely the same manner as in 1038
Khalifa
If they say, "He fabricated," tell them, "Then produce ten suras like these, fabricated, and invite whomever you can, other than GOD, if you are truthful."Yusuf Ali
Or they may say, "He forged it," Say, "Bring ye then ten suras forged, like unto it, and call whomsoever ye can, other than God!- If ye speak the truth!Pickthal
Or they say He hath invented it. Say Then bring ten surahs, the like thereof, invented, and call on everyone ye can beside Allah, if ye are truthful!"Progressive Muslims"
Or do they say "He invented it!" Say "Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call on whom you can besides God if you are truthful."If the challenge is not met, then we must acquiesce to the following without being punished
If they fail to meet your challenge, then know that this is revealed with GOD's knowledge, and that there is no god except He. Will you then submit?But then, lo and behold, if the challenge is made, they are sent to hell; so much for the challenge in the first place
As for those who strive to challenge our revelations, they incur Hell.And here is the challenge met for not one but all ten in Arabic (with English translation on some)
http//suralikeit.com/Now, Mr. Ahmed, you are at your liberty to bring any or all translations that exists today including the literal one (whatever that means), heck bring your own invented one and see if anyone can patch-up the above 3 verses for me in a consistent, coherent and non-contradicting fashion.
If quran is GOD?s words as allegedly claimed, then please clarify the following concerns
- Was the challenge of one surah not enough for GOD Al-mighty?
- Doesn?t the challenge to bring 10 surahs or even one for that matter, reveal weakness in GOD?s words by itself in which it speaks?
- Why the challenge in the first place? If GOD guides people whomsoever HE wills, then the question of challenge, whether met or not, shouldn?t arise? It seems a forced issue.
- If challenge is not met, then one should believe in it without incurring hell, but when one tries to challenge, one goes straight to hell. Isn?t this called, ?double standards??
- What is the reward for meeting the challenge and why?
- Why the contradiction and inconsistency?
- Once again, 8015 comes into play, as elaborated earlier.
NOTE ?people who tell OUTRIGHT LIES about al-quraan yet claim to believe in Al-quraan's divine origin.?
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Hi there Danish, Good to see you again. Is this going to be your style from now on, Danish, hit and run? Is this what your 'essence of nature' (sic) pals've been teaching you? That the nature of man is to run?
You haven't addressed my first set of questions to you yet. I'm going to answer alongside AB, if you don't mind.Danish If the challenge is not met, then we must acquiesce to the following without being punished
If they fail to meet your challenge, then know that this is revealed with GOD's knowledge, and that there is no god except He. Will you then submit?Is this 'scientific' Danish, pasting Quranic verses without checking its contents? Funny that..when it comes to Quranic discussion, you're about as scientific as a Salem witch.
Wainlam YASTAJIBU LAKUM means if they fail to respond to you, 'meeting your challenge' is nowhere in the ayat )
So that's one of your pathetic arguments cut down.
But then, lo and behold, if the challenge is made, they are sent to hell; so much for the challenge in the first place
As for those who strive to challenge our revelations, they incur Hell.22/51 is talking about another event altogether, the event of sa'aa or striving against God's revelation. Would you care to see context, or does 'science' prevent you from being objective? I should think it should tell you to be objective. Read 22/50, which tells you to believe and be righteous, THAT'S the context of the ayat.
- Was the challenge of one surah not enough for GOD Al-mighty?
The criteria of 'enough' depends on the individual. Why should anyone listen to YOUR criteria of sufficiency? If Al-quraan is to be made to show to contradict itself, it must first declare that issues only one challenge, which of course it never did. Scraping a little, are we?
- Doesn?t the challenge to bring 10 surahs or even one for that matter, reveal weakness in GOD?s words by itself in which it speaks?
In what way would it do so? The challenge to produce suwaar allows the individual to see for himself the greatness of al-quraan compared to any other coherent discourse. How would it reveal weakness?
- Why the challenge in the first place? If GOD guides people whomsoever HE wills, then the question of challenge, whether met or not, shouldn?t arise? It seems a forced issue.
Once again, this is your opinion and if I answer, it would be my opinion. Al-quraan says 'if they are in doubt' and if they say 'he created it himself', that's all the reason it needs. I say again WHO CARES about your opinion? Bring a contradiction or do you not know what that is?
- If challenge is not met, then one should believe in it without incurring hell, but when one tries to challenge, one goes straight to hell. Isn?t this called, ?double standards??
False. Proven above. You percieved it wrongly thanks to your poor method. You're clearly a bigot because you reserve great care for 'science' but are shoddy in your study of al-quraan. No wonder you reject it.
- What is the reward for meeting the challenge and why?
Al-quraan says you'll never meet the challenge. And judging by what you and Enquirer have thus far produced, i can see how this is true.
- Why the contradiction and inconsistency?
there is none. Only some bigots with poor knowledge and even poorer methodologies.
Danish, I hope you don't run this time and come up with your own coherent discourse. Hint look up Popper and Kuhn, it might help.
NOTE ?people who tell OUTRIGHT LIES about al-quraan yet claim to believe in Al-quraan's divine origin.?
Ahmed Baghat has NEVER lied about al-quraan or its interpretation.
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Hey there mquran,
Sounds like you love to mercilessly bicker for crying out loud, rather than presenting a coherent and meaningful refutation or even a decent discussion, which is your's and Ahmed's norm. Talk about 'hit and run'? -[ You bet, scares the heck out of me from "people who tell OUTRIGHT LIES about al-quraan yet claim to believe in Al-quraan's divine origin". ;D
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Ahmed Baghat has NEVER lied about al-quraan or its interpretation.
Now that's quite a zesty feast. Perhaps you overlooked the "illogical" aspect of "GOD's words" which he seems to confess and check out http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5264.30 and abundance of other irrelevant notions. Even you, on many occasions have argued with him on several fronts.
Mr. Mquran, you have proven yourself a LIAR on behalf of Ahmed, a FACT I'm afraid cannot be neglected.
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Sounds like you love to mercilessly bicker for crying out loud, rather than presenting a coherent and meaningful refutation or even a decent discussion, which is your's and Ahmed's norm. Talk about 'hit and run'? You bet, scares the heck out of me from "people who tell OUTRIGHT LIES about al-quraan yet claim to believe in Al-quraan's divine origin".
What 'merciless bicker'? Why don't you address my points? Instead of bluffing your way through this discussion? If you want to bluff, put on a sunni costume and teach at a madressa. You can make up anything you like there as long as it deifies Muhammad.
Here are my points for you again, which of course you will never dare to step up to
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11/14 has NO phrase 'fail to meet the challenge'. That came from the Danish's Official Storage of Lies Produced to Comfort Himself in His Rejection.
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22/51 is from ANOTHER context, nothing to do with sura challenges.
And as for your points
Point 1 is your opinion. Nothing concrete at all.
Point 2 is for clarification. Im asking you HOW does it show weakness?
Point 3 is your opinion yet again (a substitute for hard facts, obviously).
Point 4 has been proven false due to your fallacious interpretations, thanks to your total lack of scholarship on the issue.
Point 5 I have answered. There's no possibility of meeting the challenge, according to Al-quraan.
Point 6 is false once again due to your false interpretation.
If you're genuine, why don't you disprove my corrections of your facts? Why just stand on the soapbox with nothing but soap?
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Now that's quite a zesty feast. Perhaps you overlooked the "illogical" aspect of "GOD's words" which he seems to confess and check out http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5264.30 and abundance of other irrelevant notions. Even you, on many occasions have argued with him on several fronts.
Mr. Mquran, you have proven yourself a LIAR on behalf of Ahmed, a FACT I'm afraid cannot be neglected.
Does science teach you that because someone follows something, it makes him a liar ? We'll have to resurrect Aristotle to teach you some logic, pal. I will clarify for people who have comprehension problems
I have disagreed with AB, sure but he's always been forthright, even when the facts expose the weakness of his arguments. He's therefore better than the cowards who lurk in this form who will never step up to discuss in a sincere manner.
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Now that's quite a zesty feast. Perhaps you overlooked the "illogical" aspect of "GOD's words" which he seems to confess and check out http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5264.30 and abundance of other irrelevant notions. Even you, on many occasions have argued with him on several fronts.
Mr. Mquran, you have proven yourself a LIAR on behalf of Ahmed, a FACT I'm afraid cannot be neglected.
Does science teach you that because someone follows something, it makes him a liar ? We'll have to resurrect Aristotle to teach you some logic, pal. I will clarify for people who have comprehension problems
I have disagreed with AB, sure but he's always been forthright, even when the facts expose the weakness of his arguments. He's therefore better than the cowards who lurk in this form who will never step up to discuss in a sincere manner.
Ahmed conveys his regards to you with a "slam dunk".
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Sounds like you love to mercilessly bicker for crying out loud, rather than presenting a coherent and meaningful refutation or even a decent discussion, which is your's and Ahmed's norm. Talk about 'hit and run'? You bet, scares the heck out of me from "people who tell OUTRIGHT LIES about al-quraan yet claim to believe in Al-quraan's divine origin".
What 'merciless bicker'? Why don't you address my points? Instead of bluffing your way through this discussion? If you want to bluff, put on a sunni costume and teach at a madressa. You can make up anything you like there as long as it deifies Muhammad.
Here are my points for you again, which of course you will never dare to step up to
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11/14 has NO phrase 'fail to meet the challenge'. That came from the Danish's Official Storage of Lies Produced to Comfort Himself in His Rejection.
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22/51 is from ANOTHER context, nothing to do with sura challenges.
And as for your points
Point 1 is your opinion. Nothing concrete at all.
Point 2 is for clarification. Im asking you HOW does it show weakness?
Point 3 is your opinion yet again (a substitute for hard facts, obviously).
Point 4 has been proven false due to your fallacious interpretations, thanks to your total lack of scholarship on the issue.
Point 5 I have answered. There's no possibility of meeting the challenge, according to Al-quraan.
Point 6 is false once again due to your false interpretation.
If you're genuine, why don't you disprove my corrections of your facts? Why just stand on the soapbox with nothing but soap?
Present the translations of the verses in question which YOU THINK is best and EXPLAIN them, not with surfaced fancy winks, as in, ?22/51 is from ANOTHER context, nothing to do with sura challenges.? This is neither a refutation nor an explanation to my points, but simply brushed off, and that is what is called a bluff and an empty soapbox, a rhetoric. Now read the following very carefully once again, as I am not willing to repeat and educate a thickheaded in repetitious and un-relentless manner, or else you certainly need to resurrect the scribes in 8015 who compiled the Quran in its current fashion to give you a logical answer (not Aristotle).
Now, Mr. Ahmed, you are at your liberty to bring any or all translations that exists today including the literal one (whatever that means), heck bring your own invented one and see if anyone can patch-up the above 3 verses for me in a consistent, coherent and non-contradicting fashion.
If quran is GOD?s words as allegedly claimed, then please clarify the following concerns
- Was the challenge of one surah not enough for GOD Al-mighty?
- Doesn?t the challenge to bring 10 surahs or even one for that matter, reveal weakness in GOD?s words by itself in which it speaks?
- Why the challenge in the first place? If GOD guides people whomsoever HE wills, then the question of challenge, whether met or not, shouldn?t arise? It seems a forced issue.
- If challenge is not met, then one should believe in it without incurring hell, but when one tries to challenge, one goes straight to hell. Isn?t this called, ?double standards??
- What is the reward for meeting the challenge and why?
- Why the contradiction and inconsistency?
- Once again, 8015 comes into play, as elaborated earlier.
NOTE ?people who tell OUTRIGHT LIES about al-quraan yet claim to believe in Al-quraan's divine origin.?
And here is the challenge met for not one but all ten in Arabic (with English translation on some)
http//suralikeit.com/REMINDER Don't miss out on the one underlined above, give detailed explanation to my points with authority and make sure you read the link (challenged met).
Final note I will not respond to your frustrations, bickerings, brush-offs and incomplete renderings of flowery zesty nature and your cries will simply sit and rot along with you.
I edited to insert my "quote" and "your cries".
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Present the translations of the verses in question which YOU THINK is best and EXPLAIN them, not with surfaced fancy winks, as in, ?22/51 is from ANOTHER context, nothing to do with sura challenges.? This is neither a refutation nor an explanation to my points, but simply brushed off, and that is what is called a bluff and an empty soapbox, a rhetoric.
Let me spell it out for you, ok
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Danish says that 22/51 is a contradiction because as soon as a person tries to produce a sura like it, he will fit into the 22/51 criteria and thus be sentenced to hell.
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My response to Danish is, please sir, learn to read. 22/51 doesn't talk about producing suras. It talks about striving against the signs of Allah. It describes this act in opposition to the aforementioned 22/50. Danish took it OUT OF CONTEXT in his poor, unscientific attempt to read al-quraan.
Now read the following very carefully once again, as I am not willing to repeat and educate a thickheaded in repetitious and un-relentless manner, or else you certainly need to resurrect the scribes in 8015 who compiled the Quran in its current fashion to give you a logical answer (not Aristotle). Present the translations of the verses in question which YOU THINK is best and EXPLAIN them, not with surfaced fancy winks, as in, ?22/51 is from ANOTHER context, nothing to do with sura challenges.? This is neither a refutation nor an explanation to my points, but simply brushed off, and that is what is called a bluff and an empty soapbox, a rhetoric. Now read the following very carefully once again, as I am not willing to repeat and educate a thickheaded in repetitious and un-relentless manner, or else you certainly need to resurrect the scribes in 8015 who compiled the Quran in its current fashion to give you a logical answer (not Aristotle).
My question to you is, WHAT PATCH-UP ?
If I said to you
- produce 1 thing to challenge my invention
then I said
- produce 10 things to challenge my invention
they are not in contradiction. There are simply two challenges. Can't you comprehend that, Danish? That it's possible to issue TWO instead of one. Repeat after me one, TWO, three. Two is the number after one.
REMINDER Don't miss out on the one underlined above, give detailed explanation to my points with authority and make sure you read the link (challenged met).
Miss out? Sir, I try not to be like you, a person who comes out with such things as 'essence of nature' and to this day, doesn't dare define it. Such behaviour stinks of falseness and shows the total lack of confidence you have in your own ideology. Medieval popes are more scientific than yourself.
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