Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?

unknownuser

Salaams Magi,

yes i have seen these but the mistrans isn't here it was in the other the "entire mankind" bit.

when you come across that then post it and we will see who is the entire mankind.God willing.

God Bless.

zenje

Anyway good deeds are the proof my friend,not words and definitions...
And so far, what have I seen of you here?... thank you. wink

Many of you...
You guys, you people... you're wrong, I'm right.. yes? roll

Peace be with you enquirer, take it easy. )

What we are debating is how excactly The God, makes its will known to us. I state through numerous sources including the Quran...
Upto this point... we're not debating, we're in agreement! D

Peace

unknownuser

Yet you claim it's logical even if it is NOT accurate?

damn i should have deleted that line and gone with the edit alone. you are offtracking the issue at hand now. If you grandad burn his hand on a hot stove, you dad does and you mom does, you have reasonable confirmation that stoves are hot. THis history is not pr. default, wrong.

However, Here it is again (source;http//philosophy.hku.hk/think/logic/basic.php)
source explanation i chose this source because it is easy to find around. The information however, is 1st grade knowledge for pholosophers, scientist and mathmaticians alike.

L03.7 Logical Equivalence
If we have two statements that entail each other then they are logically equivalent. For example, "everyone is happy" is equivalent to "nobody is not happy", and "the glass is half full" is equivalent to "the glass is half empty".
If two statements are logically equivalent, then they must always have the same truth value.

Are we talking about archeological evidence or textual?

we are still talking about basic human logic as defined by expereince through history.

So you want to talk about salat and angels or is it rhetorical?

it is rethorical, because all you can do is give me YOUR concept. I can ask the 19'er, the submitters, the sunnis and get totally different concepts, all claiming it is from the same book, and that it is what God tells them to.

Since I believe the quran is the word of God it can have no contradictions with another scripture claiming to come from God as well. Anything will be tested against this and if someone wants to prove the quran wrong please go ahead, this is what this thread is for.

i have actually succeeded in several places. It is obviously NOT clear. So when it tells us to belive in something on faith, in contradicts itself when it makes clear that we should not accept things we cannot confirm. Or perhaps, this doesnt go for the book itself ?Personally i think that it does, and it pose the greatest challenge to us. To let go of our sucker, and live according to the message, wich is beutyful.

Start discussing them one by one. First copy? Man you are into history aren't you? Heh.

im sorry, please correct me. where is this first copy to be found?

The God is your guide to the quran. Don't expect people to tell you what to do, because that is not going to be your understanding. There are plenty of articles that I find well reasoned about the subject, you can see which fits best using your own research and reading.

so whatever our understanding of the book is, it is the right one, at any given time, even if it contradicts other peoples understanding?

And this is the fault of the book. Wunderbar!

aber ja, das ist wunderbar. das buch ist f?r alle menschen. But either for all to understand, or all to make their own understanding of, and if that is the case. what im doing is fully in line with the book itself.

unknownuser

peace zenje. Some people try to be open-minded and promote reality zenje...i think thats a good deed,rather than defending their arbitrary,sectarian divisions of mankind ,and harmful interpretations of a 1400 year old book. wink If i said the earth is a square,cant you tell me im wrong? D

unknownuser

peace thegod. Show me one verified example of creation from nothing in the whole history of existence?... We are all eternal my friend...Travelling from one manifestation to the next.
God=reality,idol=illusion or misinterpreted reality.

thegod

enquirer wrote
peace zenje. Some people try to be open-minded and promote reality zenje...i think thats a good deed,rather than defending their arbitrary,sectarian divisions of mankind ,and harmful interpretations of a 1400 year old book. If i said the earth is a square,cant you tell me im wrong?

what does that have to do with fallacy of quran? -S

unknownuser

Enquirer said

?peace simple. Some people use the verses of 3; 19 and 385 to show that no religion is acceptable except Islam. Then others use 2;62 and 569 to show that christians,jews and anyone of faith and good deeds has an acceptable religion. Which is correct? Any person could interpret these verses to whatever bias he or she has.?

The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will) Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
385
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- ANY WHO BELIEVE IN ALLAH AND THE LAST DAY, AND WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
569.
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- ANY WHO BELIEVE IN ALLAH AND THE LAST DAY, AND WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

The commonality between all these AYAH?S is submission to what it says in sura 3 (believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness )and you will find it throughout the quran whoever does follow this irrespective of whether they call themselves meatballs and whether they be pink in color have nothing whatsoever to worry about ? I think.

submission (islam) to the details in surra 3.Look at the context.
?Any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness?

So whether you agree or not there isn't any CONTRA

God Bless All.

unknownuser

peace thegod. I was adressing a comment zenje made,or should i open a seperate thread to answer him? Can you not see that topics are sometimes quite diverse and need a broad range of explanations. What does your last post have to do with the fallacy of the quran? LoL. D

zenje

If i said the earth is a square,cant you tell me im wrong?
You can say it all you want, doesnt mean I'm going to believe you. And I could try and convince you (even though that's not what I'm about), but if you're deadset on it, the earth will always be square to you, and that's cool too.

Here's an excerpt from the "1400 year old book" that sums up what I said quite eloquently...

Chapter 109

Say ?O rejecters,?
?I do not serve what you serve,?
?Nor do you serve what I serve,?
?Nor will I serve what you serve,?
?Nor will you serve what I serve,?
?To you is your system, and to me is mine.?

thegod

enquirer wrote
peace thegod. Show me one verified example of creation from nothing in the whole history of existence?... We are all eternal my friend...Travelling from one manifestation to the next.

that's what i say unto those who deny the existence of god to create something out of nothing and then put forth the claim of the absence of a supernatural entity!

so u are perhaps alluding to pantheism? that all of us are manifestations of god? each of us is god? wowww...that would have been cool!

enquirer wrote
God=reality,idol=illusion or misinterpreted reality.

who created the universe? an enitity called god? or is it a self generated reality?

peace -)

unknownuser

peace Zenje. Ah,so i proved my point,you do make arbitrary divisions and harmful interpretations from your own ego,(on the basis of an internet dialogue)...Not from god. D or is it?
If only half the energy was spent on serving god and being tolerant and open-minded,the world might be a much better place. I notice when you guys run out of ideas you throw out your quranic misinterpretations. D

unknownuser

peace thegod. Yes it is cool,us being gods. D
Everthing is a self generated,though interdependent reality.

savage_carrot

damn i should have deleted that line and gone with the edit alone. you are offtracking the issue at hand now.

Oh that's right I am. You brought it in remember? I'm sorry I didn't keep refreshing to keep checking on your 'edits'.

If you grandad burn his hand on a hot stove, you dad does and you mom does, you have reasonable confirmation that stoves are hot. THis history is not pr. default, wrong.

However, Here it is again (source;http//philosophy.hku.hk/think/logic/basic.php)
source explanation i chose this source because it is easy to find around. The information however, is 1st grade knowledge for pholosophers, scientist and mathmaticians alike.

Thank you for the logic lesson. I don't think I am the one needing it btw. What history are we debating using logic? Observable facts that do not change with our concept of time or whether your grandaddy actually did burn his hand on the stove? I trust you see the difference?

we are still talking about basic human logic as defined by expereince through history.

Your human logic as defined by history is inaccurate. Logic does not rely on history and hearsay.

it is rethorical, because all you can do is give me YOUR concept. I can ask the 19'er, the submitters, the sunnis and get totally different concepts, all claiming it is from the same book, and that it is what God tells them to.

A person sees what they see, no matter what is actually written in the book. That is not a problem with the book, I trust you can see the difference?

i have actually succeeded in several places. It is obviously NOT clear. So when it tells us to belive in something on faith, in contradicts itself when it makes clear that we should not accept things we cannot confirm. Or perhaps, this doesnt go for the book itself ?Personally i think that it does, and it pose the greatest challenge to us. To let go of our sucker, and live according to the message, wich is beutyful.

Oh you have? That's news. Confirmation is of different types. Not everyone will recieve confirmation the same way. What is 'our sucker'?

im sorry, please correct me. where is this first copy to be found?

Deal with what you have. The quran is here and now.

so whatever our understanding of the book is, it is the right one, at any given time, even if it contradicts other peoples understanding?

It is a learning process. We keep going until we find something that works for us with reason and logic. If something contradicts my understanding, I will try to see why with an open mind and research it. If I find a flaw in it, awesome, if not I will accept the other understanding. I have done that many times in the past few years.

aber ja, das ist wunderbar. das buch ist f?r alle menschen. But either for all to understand, or all to make their own understanding of, and if that is the case. what im doing is fully in line with the book itself.

Good for you.

thegod

enquirer wrote
peace thegod. I was adressing a comment zenje made,or should i open a seperate thread to answer him? Can you not see that topics are sometimes quite diverse and need a broad range of explanations. What does your last post have to do with the fallacy of the quran? LoL

ur comment made a general observation with nothing to lend credibility to it, or did it? " Some people try to be open-minded and promote reality..."...who are these people? u amongst them? which 'reality'? god? so what makes u think 'that' is a good deed? what is ur source for calling any deed 'good' and any intepretation 'harmful'? what are the standards by which u judge? why do u condemn quran simply because ur logical self (distinct from god) is not agreeable to it? the quran gives each of us the liberty to practise r belief without infringing on others' rights, then why do u insist on calling quran corrupt without any justification? -)

peace thegod. Yes it is cool,us being gods.
Everthing is a self generated,though interdependent reality.

that's simply ur opinion, right? cool! or can u lend some credence to it?

peace -)

unknownuser

Peace thegod. I am not condemning the quran,i am stating that its is not perfect or absolute.(hence the inconsistencies and contradictions.) Of course there is some wisdom in it.
Anybody is free to practise their beliefs as long as they dont infringe on others rights...this is very true,...dont you think calling peaceful people kafirs or dividing humanity into arbitrary groups,or chopping off hands etc... to be infringing on civil liberties?
Yes,and my opinions are just that...my verified opinions...your job is to verify your own realities,not follow me.

unknownuser

Thank you for the logic lesson. I don't think I am the one needing it btw. What history are we debating using logic?

You started out in the thread by saying, no phonebook logic, this is what spawned a debate on human logic in generel. Maybe i am wrong, but i assumed you where reffering to the logic analysis of "if it had been from other than God....". By default human logic alone, as demonstrated, this statement is true, given that its logical equivalence is true aswell. If the logical equlence is to have the same truth value, a phonebook is indeed from God. Any speculation as to what books God might mean with this, is pure speculation on behalf of the reader.

Your human logic as defined by history is inaccurate. Logic does not rely on history and hearsay.

i havent said that it is, on the contrary, you chose to misunderstand a statement i made,wich i 2 times now has clarified, and take it to walk out on a tangent.

A person sees what they see, no matter what is actually written in the book. That is not a problem with the book, I trust you can see the difference?

given that it is supposedly the key to our salvation that IS a problem. Unless ofcourse the salvation lies in us reading it nomatter what we read in it. there is no facit to the book, thus it is unusable as anything but ethical guidelines as nobody will know the right answer untill the examn is over. In other words. We are given the examn and then we will get educated (in hell or heavenb) wich on its own makes very little sense.

Oh you have? That's news. Confirmation is of different types. Not everyone will recieve confirmation the same way. What is 'our sucker'?

a book from wich we always can find "bullets of truth" to shoot at people who disagrees with us. And i have your own words for that the book means anything we want it to, thus the "bullets of truth" is anything we want them to be in any given context we want it to be. Not excactly clear speak is it?

Deal with what you have. The quran is here and now.

But it tells me it hasnt been corrupted, and the only evidence i have of it, is the book claiming it is so. So without a first copy, i cannot verify that there is no corruption to it. Thus the statement is pr.default, false. As the book altso makes clear that we shoudnt take anything for face value, but confrim things ourself. How can i confirm this, with the Quran here and now, when i know for a fact that changes HAS been made to it, like insertion of grammer marks.

It is a learning process. We keep going until we find something that works for us with reason and logic. If something contradicts my understanding, I will try to see why with an open mind and research it. If I find a flaw in it, awesome, if not I will accept the other understanding. I have done that many times in the past few years.

THis is no different from what the xtians claim to be doing with their book.
This learning process is avaible to anyone, altso people without a book end up believing in God, and doing good deeds. And i still claim that to do this, often you have to bend corners of logic, wich is against the book itself.

unknownuser

peace savage carrot. I told you its hard to stick to the specific topic sometimes...What was this thread about again?...Dont worry,i dont mind at all...its very interesting. Can you say 'double standards'.

thegod

enquirer wrote
Peace thegod. I am not condemning the quran,i am stating that its is not perfect or absolute.(hence the inconsistencies and contradictions.) Of course there is some wisdom in it.

yet again u sail into ur sea of assumptions...just what tells u quran has wisdom or contradictions? u state these things as if u have a word from god regarding this...but in essence u are only reflecting ur opinion! -)

enquirer wrote
Anybody is free to practise their beliefs as long as they dont infringe on others rights...this is very true,...dont you think calling peaceful people kafirs or dividing humanity into arbitrary groups,or chopping off hands etc... to be infringing on civil liberties?

chopping off hands? quran tells to chop off hands of those who do not believe in one god? would u back that up with the verse which states that!

enquirer wrote
Yes,and my opinions are just that...my verified opinions...your job is to verify your own realities,not follow me.

not verified by an agreed to standard....verified only according to ur (self-confessed) limited capabilities! again, u want others to validate their beliefs and take ur opinions as verified facts? does that tell anything about ur logical self....ur god...which guides ur understanding? cool! D

peace -)

unknownuser

peace thegod. Now you are misquoting and misunderstanding me. Forget the definitions and linguistics my friend. I say these are my verified opinions...,you verify your own realities...im not asking you to believe in my opinions. I stated chopping off hands(for theft,obviously.) is the opinion of some who follow the quran,i did not state they believe in chopping off hands for not believing in one god...Whose making assumptions now?
And finally whatever you say...isnt that also really only your opinions/interpretations of what you think is gods words? D

thegod

enquirer wrote
peace thegod. Now you are misquoting and misunderstanding me. Forget the definitions and linguistics my friend. I say these are my verified opinions...,you verify your own realities...im not asking you to believe in my opinions.

if that be the case it would be pretty cool, but u are abusing my opinion by claiming quran is corrupted without a valid reason! u believe in endless regeneration without providing evidence, would then u like to be reminded every now and then that u are following conjecture? why then do u propose every now and then that quran is corrupted? -)

enquirer wrote
I stated chopping off hands(for theft,obviously.) is the opinion of some who follow the quran,i did not state they believe in chopping off hands for not believing in one god...Whose making assumptions now?

u talked about quran infringing the civil liberties by commanding to chop off hands...did u mention it was for theft? then when v were contesting my claim that quran does not infringe on anybody's right based on their belief...what else would be the assumption to be drawn? that said...that verse is under scrutiny...and that is of the verses on which i have reserved my judgement...not on the text but the interpretation thereof! still...there has to be some punishment for theft...or do u recognize thieving as a civil right?

enquirer wrote
And finally whatever you say...isnt that also really only your opinions/interpretations of what you think is gods words?

yes, but have i ventured forth to say u are guided by nothing save ur imperfect wisdom? nor do i go far as to ask u to prove ur beliefs...simply to substantiate ur charges against quran....set common standards so that ur grievances against the text can be looked into and its veracity established or otherwise! i am definitely interested in seeing criticism of quran based on something definitive...but if all someone plans to do is claim i guess its a matter of prerogative! -)