FIXED Meanings of Words
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Yes, Jm, thank you. I hope to post my article soon. But this is not a thread about jinns, but about pre-programmed meanings of words, creating walls between the people who are trying to follow the quran alone. This is an important subject, as most people i see discussing on this site, without understanding the psychology of words and meanings. And by thus only defending their up-bringing or thaught meanings, without really understanding the true meanings, which creates these walls between us.
I hope to give more examples, and also some psychology facts about his issue.
These walls must be torn down, if we want to unite.
BUT I DON'T WANT THIS THREAD TO BE USED TO DISCUSS CERTAIN MEANING OF WORDS, WE CAN START NEW THREADS THEN. THIS THREAD IS TO DISCUSS THE PSYCHOLOGICAL FACTORS BEHIND THE UNDERSTANDINGS.
PLEASE RESPECT THIS REQUEST PEOPLE............
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arnoldyasin wrote
I will give an example, the Greek word, apocolypse, means revealing/revelation. All people on this site and in the monotheistic world, understand this word as meaning the end of times, which is nonsense. The word got its own meaning, a new fixed meaning, and by thus becoming a 'title'.i dont know what makes u say that...apocalypse does not have a new 'fixed' meaning!
apocalypse is best understood as 'uncover'...yes...writings which describe the end of the world are also referred as apocalypses..perhaps because they were seen as 'uncovering' that which they believe will happen at the end of the time...also new testament's book of revelation...and thus also used to refer to the decisive destruction of the world as described therein! from that the word is also used for any event of magnitude....an apocalyptic earthquake...even an apocalyptic crash of the stock market!
so chill...the word does not have a new 'fixed' meaning as u fear...the meaning 'uncover' is alive..well...and kicking! -)
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peace
from that the word is also used for any event of magnitude....an apocalyptic earthquake...even an apocalyptic crash of the stock market!
an uncovering earthquake? an uncovering stock market crash? doesn't make sense to me.
a?poc?a?lypse
n.- Apocalypse Abbr. Apoc. Bible. The Book of Revelation.
- Any of a number of anonymous Jewish or Christian texts from around the second century B.C. to the second century A.D. containing prophetic or symbolic visions, especially of the imminent destruction of the world and the salvation of the righteous.
- Great or total devastation; doom the apocalypse of nuclear war.
- A prophetic disclosure; a revelation.
The definition "revelation" is below "doom." But even if some people do use apocalypse as 'revelation' it still doesn't change what Arnoldyasin said.
Words attain new meanings over time. That's true for every language. What we need to do is find the original meanings of the words in the quran as they were 1400 years ago using the context of the quran itself. -
phoenix1 wrote
an uncovering earthquake? an uncovering stock market crash? doesn't make sense to me.it wont coz it does not....u have taken it in the wrong context...i showed the different ways in which apoclaypse is understood even today...that it does not have a 'fixed' meaning....u have chosen the wrong 1!
going by the definition of apocalypse as 'end of world' an apocalyptic earthquake or stock market crash would not make sense either (as it would imply just that end of the world...and the world has not 'ended'...so not only quran and arabic but even other languages have to be taken in context! however i will get to this below! -)
phoenix1 wrote
The definition "revelation" is below "doom."cool!
phoenix1 wrote
But even if some people do use apocalypse as 'revelation' it still doesn't change what Arnoldyasin said.depends on what u are referring to as having been said by him...if it is the general context of the post then i never said anything would change! if u mean apocalypse has a new 'fixed' meaning as 'end of the world' then no...as u urself quoted from the dictionary the word still retains some of the original connotation...if u refer to some other dictionary u might find 'uncover' as well!
however the problem with this example is that this is a word which like many other words has been borrowed by english...in all likelihood apoclaypse was borrowed primarily as seen in the light of book of revelation and...and hence this connotation.....apocalypse (book of revelation) is thus called as it is begins as being the apolcaypse...so the book was named as apocalypse (like 'quran' is taken from quran) and when borrowed into english the meaning associated with the book was also borrowed!
another example is 'thesaurus'...in greek meaning a treasure or a storehouse...however in english it is best kown as a book which lists related words!
however if u can say that thesaurus no longer means 'treasure' in greek or apocalypse no longer means uncovering/disclose in greek...then u have a point! or u would do well to show that 'uncover' in english as v understand 'uncover' today is not what it meant when the word was originally incorporated into english....if u get what i am saying!
phoenix1 wrote
Words attain new meanings over time. That's true for every language. What we need to do is find the original meanings of the words in the quran as they were 1400 years ago using the context of the quran itself.yes...i agree...and we should also make use of common sense...a house would have been called somethin 1400 years back...so if u (or i) were to denounce the word which is now taken as house u should also point out which word really denotes a 'house' as a house would have existed even back then....this is just an example and any word will do...and v have to do all this in the context of the quran itself...also the surrounding words at each location and rest of the text....and should make the best possible sense in the context of the entire text..ofcourse 'best possible sense' might differ with differing sensibilities though the truth will remain unchanged in the text itself...cool! -)
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Salaam all,
Just want to add something to this discussion about "fixed" meanings of words. I will give an example of the Arabic word "fitna". Now, for non-Indonesian speaking people who only uses Arabic dictionaries, they will get the definition of this word to mean "trial" for instance. However, and I don't know how or why, this particular word in my country develops a new meaning to accuse or to put blame on someone who actually did not do that crime or mistake. We never call a trial for passing a test (whatever it is) a fitnah for example.
So, because this is an everyday word, whenever people say "fitnah" they don't mean trial but the new meaning, even though the new meaning can be understood somehow as a certain form of trial. So, it is no doubt that this will affect their psychology about this word. Hence, the new "fixed" meaning of this word.
=adley=
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depends on what u are referring to as having been said by him...if it is the general context of the post then i never said anything would change! if u mean apocalypse has a new 'fixed' meaning as 'end of the world' then no...as u urself quoted from the dictionary the word still retains some of the original connotation...if u refer to some other dictionary u might find 'uncover' as well!
however the problem with this example is that this is a word which like many other words has been borrowed by english...in all likelihood apoclaypse was borrowed primarily as seen in the light of book of revelation and...and hence this connotation.....apocalypse (book of revelation) is thus called as it is begins as being the apolcaypse...so the book was named as apocalypse (like 'quran' is taken from quran) and when borrowed into english the meaning associated with the book was also borrowed!
another example is 'thesaurus'...in greek meaning a treasure or a storehouse...however in english it is best kown as a book which lists related words!
however if u can say that thesaurus no longer means 'treasure' in greek or apocalypse no longer means uncovering/disclose in greek...then u have a point! or u would do well to show that 'uncover' in english as v understand 'uncover' today is not what it meant when the word was originally incorporated into english....if u get what i am saying!
peace TheGod,
Actually, that was what i was trying to say. Words take on different meanings as time goes on, but that doesn't mean that the original meaning is lost and can't be revived. And i think that's what arnoldyasin was trying to say as well. We have to revive the original meanings of the quran because those original meanings have been lost, replaced by newer meanings. And the reason these meanings are more 'fixed' is because we aren't talking about just a language, but a religion. People who have used the more common definitions all their lives will get confused and even offended if the newer meanings were apocalypsed (i know i havn't used it correctly P) to them. Hope you get what I am saying.
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Peace,
Thanx Adley for the perfect example, and yes phoenix, this is exactly what i'm trying to say here. Most fixed meanings of words used in the Quran, come from the traditions. So we have to start loosing those if we want the real vision of the Quran. Otherwise we too fall under 2530.
What i want to do in this thread, is to show examples from languages we use. And the psychology behind it why people defend those fixed meanings. If we have more clearity on the words used in the Reading, there will be more consensus on the interpretation of the Reading. As we now mostly differ not on the message, but on what the words mean. We must let the Reading explain itself what it means with certain words.
I will post some examples i know from psychology next time Godwilling.
Peace
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Dear arnoldyasin
I fully support your view, the best example i can think off is the word salat,
and how mohammadans have used it to send prayers / greeting / salwat every
time his name is taken .
there is a need to carry out through re evalution of all important
words in quran , in a way it has already been started since last few decades, what we need is an organized comprehensive study.
keep up the good work
sikandar -
Peace,
Thegod, the writings that got the title revelation, refers to that it was revealed to them, not to what was revealed to them. Only after those books, the word got its new meaning. So yes, the words meaning was changed, and fixed in later times, by the people themselves. And you by thus give the perfect example of what i tried to tell here, you defended a fixed meaning, that has no place in the original greek language. A meaning that was given to the word by the people themselves, basing its meaning on the contents of the written book, and neglecting the true meaning of the word and why it was used as a title. Thanx for being such a good example The thing is, you know exactly what i mean and agree with me, so trying to 'take away' my example is futile.
And yes, siki, thanx, we have to organize, this must be taken seriously, as a lot of people are taking no effort to structure our deen.
Peace
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Salaam arnoldyasin,
I agree with you that the incorrect view of hadith is a big big barrier because it freezes the meaning of verses.
First, because the prophet is merely a fallible human being who does not know every thing. For example, at his time the knowledge about universe is completely different from what we know today so the prophet himself could not have given the "correct" interpretation of all verses in quran regarding the universe. Whatever the prophet taught is correct only to the best of his knowledge.
Second, because what we read in hadith compilations are not the sayings of the prophet. They are what the narrators claim to have been from the prophet.
Third, because hadith compilations have been proven to be not authentic (the labels shahih given by the scholars do not guarantee anything about their authenticity). Furthermore, due to the degree of corruption, we cannot be sure whether the "fine" ones are really from the prophet, let alone take them as DIVINE books.
Fourth, this is the most important one, because Quran is for Allah to explain and not for Bukhari to explain (7516-19)
OK bro, I cannot wait any longer to see your research )
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Peace,
Thanx andy, but is not only because of hadith, it is as much about how the folklore and other languages changed the meanings. A lot of arabic meanings are corrupted by the hebrew, aramaic and persian meanings. So it is a much wider field we have to investigate. Also, even though most people here reject hadith and other history to understand the Quran, they neglect that the meaning and interpretations of words they have, are formed and come from the the sunni-arabic. And by so are still stuck in the corrupted arabic.
Like the word Nikaa, doesn't mean only marriage, but contract, pledge, mixing, combine. So we aren't allowed to marry four women, but are advised to make "contracts" with them, as to take care of them and their children, a form of social security. And i can give more examples with this word. Thus a lot of verses can have mulitple meanings, giving rules not only about marriage, but about any form of contract and combining forces. And also gives the implication that the prophet was never married to multiple women, but had social security contracts with them, to take care of them, till they re-married.
The depth of the Quran is by thus opened, and shows its endless wisdom.
I hope to form some alliances with people who want to help, take on certain words, and see the implications on understandings verses where they're used.
Here i will give an example how everything changes if we appraoch words in their original meaning, and drop the fixed meaning. This was not the purpose of this thread, so keep in mind i only give it as an example on how mulitple options open up for us, if we translate the words without the fixed meanings. REMEMBER PEOPLE, THIS IS NOT TO DISCUSS THIS TRANSLATION, THIS IS ONLY AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT HAPPENS IF WE LOOSE THE FIXED TITLES. Any comments on the translation can be done through PM. I only give this
as an example to explain my intentions on what needed to be done. Only the method of loosing the titles can be discussed.Verse 2432-33 approaching it from multiple angles, while never deviating from its original meaning in Arabic
First we look at Nikaa meaning marriage/combining/mixing/contract/covenant/joining
BaGhA'a (as also in 1920 Bagyyaa) meaning
Sought for or after, desired, endeavored to find and take and get (good or evil)
Loving or affecting a thing
Acting wrongfully, injuriously or tyrannically
Seeking or endeavoring to act corruptingly, wrongly and/or unjustly, insolent/disobedient
Exceeding due bounds or just limits in any way
Not right, proper or fit
Prostitute or adulteress, unchasteTahasanun
HaSadNun
To be well fortified
to strengthen
to immunize
to secure
to strengthen one's position
to be secure
be protected
And TaHaSadNun
securing
safeguarding
protection
protectedness
See
Hans Wehr - A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic - Edited by J. Milton Cowan (Third Edition)(183)
Furthermore, Abu Fazl and Lane's hold similar ideas on the issue of Hasuna (Ha,Sad,Nun) Giving
to fortify
to secure
to structure (a palace)Malakat
coming from the word MaLaK
kingdom or realmAyManukum
oath/pledge , literal right hand posses, referring to pledging with your right handMa malakat aymanukum what is under your guardianship/oath/pledge/authority
We can translate the verse from marriage point of view
"And combine/marry/bring together off those among you who are single/solitary, and from the virtious/good/righteous among your male and female servants/subordinates/workers/believers. If they are poor/in need, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
And let those who are not able to find a combination(match)/not able to marry, continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those (women) under your oath/authorization/guardianship seek marriage/rights, then marry them off/give them their rights if you find they are ready/deserve it, and give them from the wealth of God which he has bestowed on you. and don't compel/drive/force your daughters/your women/young women into something that goes beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, if they wish/desire to structure their own 'palace'(life)/protect their own 'palace'(life).
Or
and don't compel your daughters/your young women into something beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own ways of strengthening their position.
Or
And don't compel your daughters/young women (in regards to their personal goals) beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position (in regards to their personal goals in life).In order that you make a gain in the goods/In order that you seek the gains of the immediate enjoyments (hayatud Dunya). God is the One who protects and provides/is the most merciful.(2432-33)
"Hayatud Dunya" has been presented to be so by Abu Fazl in his Urdu Dictionary in Urdu words as follows "Fawri Aaish", I have translated above the meaning given by Abu Fazl in Urdu to English to be "Immediate enjoyments".
God is the one who "covers them from the consequences of the plans" and "provides them", Ghafuur=
God is the one who "protects" and "provides" .Ghafuur even means "the one who protects" (Refer Gharibul Quran - Abu Fazl)(page.292). Raheem also means "the one who provides" (Refer Lughatul Quran and Gharibul Quran notes on "Rahma"In the first version it is to combine the single people, so they can find a partner in love, and don't just pick out the rich. Combine the rich and poor to get a balanced society, where equality rules. And God will help them all grow then. And if they can't find a good combination yet, let them wait, and don't fall into illicit acts. And if you are a trustee/responsible over people under your care, that can mean from daughters to anyone under your authority/guardianship, then if they are ready, let them get married if they want, and help them get started. And don't force the daughters/women into situations were they feel they are being treated with unjust, things that go beyond their wishes, their permission, let them fill in their own lives. Let them decide on their own, how they want to develope. So this can apply to choice of education, husband, work, and so on. Just to please your or a family, or to uphold a tradition, or to gratify your wishes and plans you had with them, let those expectations go. Let them be individuals is what this verse tells us. Because God will protect them against the consequences of your plans.
Or if you see Nikaa in a social 'help' contract.
This is what you can see if you approach Nikaa in a social waya) Life in a Quranic system is more social where none would be left solitary. This verse urges the Social programmers to work on providing a strong family structure for these solitaries this may be through marriage or without it. Such is because such solitaries may be a child, a lady, a woman, or even elderly citizens residing in the city.b) Quran wants various classes of the society to come forward and show their enthusiasm in helping these solitaries find their a better life.c) Quran even emphasizes that those with limited means aren't ignored in this call. This is because, there are chances that they may have something to give to some which others may not. So, let this call be generally for all, whosoever feels that he/she is well in a position to fulfill it.
2432
So get the solitaries, the solitaries of society together, combine with them/form social contracts with them, wether you/they are rich or poor, the virtious, and God will grant them from His Bounty. God is Encompassing, Knowledgable.a) To continue, after going through the responsibilities of the contract (case to case) if one feels that he may not be able to do it, then let him refrain from proceeding with it. One shouldn't be demotivated for being in such a state; it is hope that takes one to the top, if one has the will to learn and strive in getting what he aims at in ways better and productive.
b) I believe that one is more a kind of Trustee when it comes for handling "Ma Malakat Aymanukum". Thus, giving back the trust to the right owners is quite important. So, of those who have responsibilities pertaining "Ma malakat Aymanukum" based on some stipulated contract, should spend of what they own of theirs if requested when it comes for establishing them in their desirable objectives. However, in case, the trustee is more worthy of defining the limits of spending then be it so.
c) Last but not the least, having had given such right to the trustees it doesn't mean that they poke nose and press things to a level that individuals tend to have nothing of their personal identity or say a opinion or even an objective regarding their future. One should understand that it is they who have to decide what they would have to do and that the job of the trustee is to guide them. So, if those under the shade of the trustee particularly the young women wish to strengthen their life in their own independent ways (this may or may not be about marriage) then they should be given all the more utilities to work on it. Let not the gliterring present deceive you in giving them their due rights.2433
And let those who can't find a good combination (to give social help or to find social help), then refrain from it till God helps you, enriches you. And if those who are under your guardianship (Ma Malakat Aymanukum) seek their own rights (Kitaab) then give them once you believe that they deserve it and provide them with the means that God had provided you with.And don't compel/drive/force the people under your guardianship(contract) on you into something (in regards to their personal goals) beyond their just rights/doing them injustice, when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position (in regards to their personal goals in life).
In order that you make a gain in the goods/In order that you seek the gains of the immediate enjoyments (hayatud Dunya). God is the One who protects and provides (from the consequences of such plans).So in these interpretations, that both fit perfectly, you get two most important ideas/laws/directions. One protecting women/youths/people under guardianship, and the other to drive people to help social solitary people to get back on their feet.
i will not discuss my translation on this thread as that is not the subject of this thread, i will only discuss the method used.
Peace
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phoenix1 wrote
Actually, that was what i was trying to say. Words take on different meanings as time goes on, but that doesn't mean that the original meaning is lost and can't be revived. And i think that's what arnoldyasin was trying to say as well. We have to revive the original meanings of the quran because those original meanings have been lost, replaced by newer meanings.that they may have been lost or replaced is a possibility however to just assert that they have surely been lost and replaced needs to bear the burden of providing proof! which is why i said the words have to be looked in the context of quran carefully before coming to any conclusion of whether or not they have been distorted!
phoenix1 wrote
And the reason these meanings are more 'fixed' is because we aren't talking about just a language, but a religion. People who have used the more common definitions all their lives will get confused and even offended if the newer meanings were apocalypsed (i know i havn't used it correctly ) to them. Hope you get what I am saying.yes and i agree with what u say here! just to quote an example the word 'salat' as understood by shias/others has no backing in quran...forget the way they understand salat...even their understanding of physical postures of 'sujood' and 'ruku' has no basis in quran...nor does their folding of hands have a basis in quran!
however the word djinn it is quite clear from the quran that djinn is a
creation like humankind! now simply because shias/sunnis/others also hold this view to reject it even when the quran supports it does not reflect clear thinking...ofcourse i am not talking about any detailed explanation of the djinns that shias/sunnis/others might hold just that they are a creation like humankind! if at all it is to be rejected it is to be done only after having made complete sense of a substitute word and showing it as a better or in the least an equal substitution....also it should use the same standards v apply to other words and not be prejudiced...so i wonder if u can see that just to reject every popular view at the cost of going against the quran cannot be the goal of a person who seeks to understand things in light of the quran! -)peace -)
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arnolyasin wrote
Thegod, the writings that got the title revelation, refers to that it was revealed to them, not to what was revealed to them.the scripture begins as being the apocalypse of jesus christ...using that word the particular work was titled 'the apocalypse'....it is as simple as that!
arnolyasin wrote
Only after those books, the word got its new meaning.so now it also became the title of a particular book so when the greeks would be talking amongst themselves....apocalypse would carry the usual connotation of 'uncovering/disclosure'...and would also refer to a particluar scripture!
arnolyasin wrote
So yes, the words meaning was changed, and fixed in later times, by the people themselves.now as long as these words are with the native speakers it is fine....but when another language borrows them....then it becomes a bit of a problem! the word apocalypse has perhaps been incorporated in the english language in the context of the biblical book and not the original context...so it is not distortion but the way it has been borrowed which is the cause of its popular understanding in english!
however...like i remarked...a native greek speaker may not limit the understanding of apocalypse as the biblical scripture much less the end of the world!
arnolyasin wrote
And you by thus give the perfect example of what i tried to tell here, you defended a fixed meaning, that has no place in the original greek language.i dunno why u are persisting with the word 'fixed' i showed u that till date its original meaning is known even in english!
also...u would do well to show that apocalypse is no longer understood as 'uncover' in greek today but only as 'the book of revelation'!
nor is it about having no place in the original greek...once added to english in the biblical context this word has evolved according to the borrowed meaning! since it was borrowed into english with the connotation of disclosure of the vivid details at the end of time it later became symbolic thus an apocalyptic earthquake!
or think 'pharaoh' (originally an epithet for some egyptian kings...but is now) applied to any ancient egyptian ruler is also understood as 'tyrant' because of the evil which pharaoh symbolises in various religious scriptures!
arnolyasin wrote
A meaning that was given to the word by the people themselves, basing its meaning on the contents of the written book, and neglecting the true meaning of the word and why it was used as a title.u are talking about the understanding of a greek word in english language...if u have proof that in greek apocalypse is no longer
understood as 'uncover' but only as 'the destruction of the world' then u have a point! -)or had the english word 'uncover' lost its meaning and taken on the meaning 'end of the world' then u would have a reasonable argument! -)
arnolyasin wrote
Thanx for being such a good examplenetime! -) i am only too glad to be of help! ;D
arnolyasin wrote
The thing is, you know exactly what i mean and agree with me, so trying to 'take away' my example is futile.yes...i know exactly what u mean which is why i pointed out that 'apocalypse' is a wrong example to demonstrate what u mean! u were talking about how some words have their own meanings in ancient arabic but are wrongly understood in arabic today
arnolyasin wrote
Like words as jinn, mailik-ah, sjeitan, masjid, salaat, and a lot more, all have their own meanings in the ancient arabic language.....however the example u gave was of the usage of a greek word in english language and whether u like to admit this or not it has little or no relation to the point u were making! -)
peace -)
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Peace,
Yes, thank you thegod, you've shown i have used a wrong example. For i don't know how the word apocalypse is used in modern Greek. So if anyone knows any better examples, please share them. In the article i posted above, with the use of Nikaa, i've proven my point i believe. So let's keep the examples coming. Soon i'll post my jinn-article, when it is checked by others. I'll also post something about malik-ah later Godwilling. If anyone can contribute, please do. This is important.
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arnoldyasin wrote
Yes, thank you thegod,netime -)
arnoldyasin wrote
you've shown i have used a wrong example. For i don't know how the word apocalypse is used in modern Greek. So if anyone knows any better examples, please share them. In the article i posted above, with the use of Nikaa, i've proven my point i believe. So let's keep the examples coming. Soon i'll post my jinn-article, when it is checked by others. I'll also post something about malik-ah later Godwilling. If anyone can contribute, please do. This is important.i was thinking about packin my bags and leavin for a while...however a djinn article is definitely very interestin...so i ll perhaps tarry a while for this 1 article just in case i feel v have different views...and maybe later i will check out jesus' articles!
coming to ur 'nikah' stuff...some verses have long failed to make much sense to me and some 'nikah' verses are definitely among them...so i hope i make better sense of these verses now....(and while pursuin this word i hope i have found some stuff which could help me on a few other issues as well)...though i can safely say i am a long way off from makin any real sense regardin 'nikah' itself...much less comin to a conclusion...so keep the good work up...u have done a wonderful job here! -)
peace -)