2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
-
Peace Salim,
Peace Imraan and All
Are you implying in your work that Salat=consultation period.
Peace Salim
No I am not equating the two. My research seems to be leading me in a direction of salat being event specific in many cases. Salat would therefore be set up for different issues. Not every person would be involved in every salat. Only those qualified and the parties concerned would participate. This is a work in progress and I am not ready to put this forward in great detail at this point.
Another example of event specific salat in my opinion is 5106.
Imraan
-
Peace Wakas,
peace Imraan,
I did not find your post clear. Also it seems you neglected any mention of 2239.
Sometimes I am not the most coherent writer, so thank you for the comment. I will try to structure my thoughts a little better on these verses and post them on the quranwiki.net site. I'll post the link once it is done.
Regarding 2239, I am almost done with it and will post it soon. The reason I posted this on the quranists forum even though the research is ongoing was because somebody wanted an explanation of one of the concepts regarding salat that we were discussing.
Is there something you have seen in 2239 that doesn't fit in with what I was saying about the rest of the passage? I'd appreciate your input.
Imraan
-
Salaam all,
Can someone point me when will be 'yawm AlJuma' or 'the day of gathering'?
I mean, once in three day or once in a week or once in a month or whenever we want?
May Allah guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. KhanPeace
"The Day of Gathering" ....Weddings , Funerals , Important Announcement/Event for the community , emergency etc . As for , 'how often' ? As often as required .
Evidence against 2238 as "Middle Prayers " > The verses before and after 2238-239 .
Peace
almarh0m
-
Salaam AlMarh0m,
"The Day of Gathering" ....Weddings , Funerals , Important Announcement/Event for the community , emergency etc . As for , 'how often' ? As often as required .
629
629 O you who believe, when call is made for Salaat at the gathering day, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of Allah, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if only you knew.
You mean
Salaat at funeral?
Salaat at wedding?
Salaat at emergency?And what is the purpose of hastening towards the remembrance of Allah?
And why to cease the selling?
Evidence against 2238 as "Middle Prayers " > The verses before and after 2238-239 .
Sorry, nothing found. before and after aayaats talks about something very different from 2238-239
May Allah open our hearts to understand the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam AlMarh0m,
629
629 O you who believe, when call is made for Salaat at the gathering day, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of Allah, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if only you knew.
You mean
Salaat at funeral?
Salaat at wedding?
Salaat at emergency?And what is the purpose of hastening towards the remembrance of Allah?
And why to cease the selling?
Sorry, nothing found. before and after aayaats talks about something very different from 2238-239
Peace
Precisely , nothing in the preceeding verses talked about "prayers , let alone "Middle Prayers" , why suddenly in 2238-239 the subject morphed into "The Middle Prayer" , and only to resume to the subject discussed in 2220-237 then again in 2240-242 ?
Why can't we remember Allah at weddings , funerals , and other community events on the day of gathering? We have to stop doing business/selling or working in order to attend the gathering , is it not the purpose of salat to remember Allah ?
Peace
Almarh0m
-
Salaam almarh0m,
Peace
Precisely , nothing in the preceeding verses talked about "prayers , let alone "Middle Prayers" , why suddenly in 2238-239 the subject morphed into "The Middle Prayer" , and only to resume to the subject discussed in 2220-237 then again in 2240-242 ?
Why can't we remember Allah at weddings , funerals , and other community events on the day of gathering? We have to stop doing business/selling or working in order to attend the gathering , is it not the purpose of salat to remember Allah ?
Peace
Almarh0m
You means to say we have to wash our face and hands and wipe hands on head and wash legs before going to a wedding, funeral, emergency, community events as per 56
And also we have to be ON TIME as per 4103 for community events, weddings, funerals, emergencies.
And we also have to attend community events, weddings, funerals and emergencies at the time of "Fajr" and "Eishaan" ONLY as per 2458
And we also have to make witness by two persons among us when death approaches. And if we are travelling then we have to take other two persons as witness and WE HAVE TO HOLD THEM UNTIL WE ATTEND COMMUNITY EVENTS, WEDDINGS, FUNERALS AND EMERGENCIES, then they have to swear by Allah saying that they will not purchase with it any price even to a near relative and they will not conceal the testimony of Allah, if we do so, we are the sinners as per 5106
5106
5106 O you who believe, witnessing a will if death is approaching one of you shall be done by two who are just among you. Or, if you have gone forth in the land, then two others may suffice if death is approaching you; you will hold them after making the contact prayer, and they will swear by Allah if you have doubt We will not purchase with it any price, even if he was a near relative, and we will not conceal the testimony of Allah, or else we are then of the sinners.
And we have to be the BELIEVERS in order to attend community events, wedding, funerals, emergencies, etc because almost all the aayaats talk about "SALAAT" are referring to BELIEVERS.
This is how you understand what Salaat is? hmm
May Allah open our hearts to understand the truth and guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam almarh0m,
You means to say we have to wash our face and hands and wipe hands on head and wash legs before going to a wedding, funeral, emergency, community events as per 56
And also we have to be ON TIME as per 4103 for community events, weddings, funerals, emergencies.
And we also have to attend community events, weddings, funerals and emergencies at the time of "Fajr" and "Eishaan" ONLY as per 2458
And we also have to make witness by two persons among us when death approaches. And if we are travelling then we have to take other two persons as witness and WE HAVE TO HOLD THEM UNTIL WE ATTEND COMMUNITY EVENTS, WEDDINGS, FUNERALS AND EMERGENCIES, then they have to swear by Allah saying that they will not purchase with it any price even to a near relative and they will not conceal the testimony of Allah, if we do so, we are the sinners as per 5106
5106
5106 O you who believe, witnessing a will if death is approaching one of you shall be done by two who are just among you. Or, if you have gone forth in the land, then two others may suffice if death is approaching you; you will hold them after making the contact prayer, and they will swear by Allah if you have doubt We will not purchase with it any price, even if he was a near relative, and we will not conceal the testimony of Allah, or else we are then of the sinners.
And we have to be the BELIEVERS in order to attend community events, wedding, funerals, emergencies, etc because almost all the aayaats talk about "SALAAT" are referring to BELIEVERS.
This is how you understand what Salaat is? hmm
May Allah open our hearts to understand the truth and guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. KhanPeace
Please see the topic of this thread and read my previous post before attacking my understanding of salat . You never see people praying at a funeral ? You have never been to a wedding reception on time ? Or do you you usually attend gathering without having a bath or a shower before you go ? Sorry to tell you this , but I and most people that I know have showers at least twice a day whether it is winter , spring , summer or autum .
Peace
almarh0m
-
Salaam almarh0m,
Peace
Please see the topic of this thread and read my previous post before attacking my understanding of salat . You never see people praying at a funeral ? You have never been to a wedding reception on time ? Or do you you usually attend gathering without having a bath or a shower before you go ? Sorry to tell you this , but I and most people that I know have showers at least twice a day whether it is winter , spring , summer or autum .
Peace
almarh0m
In no ways I mean to hurt you or your feelings, but I wanted to make you see that your understanding of Salaat do not tally with AlQuraan. Please re-read my prev post to get my point, then it is upto you to accept it or not.
Please accept my apologies if my post hurt you in anyways.
And nice to know that you take shower twice in all seasons, mashaAllah. Allah loves the one who are clean
And very intelligently you take your topic from Salaat to Shower anyways, not a problem both starts with "S"
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Peace
Please see the topic of this thread and read my previous post before attacking my understanding of salat . You never see people praying at a funeral ? You have never been to a wedding reception on time ? Or do you you usually attend gathering without having a bath or a shower before you go ? Sorry to tell you this , but I and most people that I know have showers at least twice a day whether it is winter , spring , summer or autum .
Peace
almarh0m
Peace almarh0m
Not that this is entirely relevant but its a quick question.
Do you really take at least two showers in one day or did you mean at least once every 2 days?
By any chance do you take ablution to be showering? -
Peace almarh0m
Not that this is entirely relevant but its a quick question.
Do you really take at least two showers in one day or did you mean at least once every 2 days?
By any chance do you take ablution to be showering?Peace
First of all , M.Khan asked if I do practice 56 before attending a gathering and I answered with " I have shower twice a day at least . Now is that an irrelevant answer ?
Secondly , I am happy to inform you that Twice means 2 times and we do take at least 2 showers per day .
Why would I need to take an ablution if I have a shower or a bath already ? Don't you take a shower/bath before you attend any community or public gathering ? And you called yourself a muslim ?
Peace
Almarh0m -
Peace
First of all , M.Khan asked if I do practice 56 before attending a gathering and I answered with " I have shower twice a day at least . Now is that an irrelevant answer ?
Secondly , I am happy to inform you that Twice means 2 times and we do take at least 2 showers per day .
Peace
Almarh0mPeace Almarh0m
You misunderstood me. I was not suggesting your answer to Mmkhan was irrelevant. I was suggesting that my question to you was not relevant.
I know what twice means. But everyone makes mistakes and I have only once come across someone who takes a shower twice a day so I thought it quiet amazing that another would do the same thing. So i considered the possibility that you may have made a mistake in the writing of your post.Yes i do believe that a shower fulfills ablution. What i was wondering was whether you considered ablution to be the equivalent of a shower. You may have had a different interpretation or understandinng which would have been of interest of me.
Why would I need to take an ablution if I have a shower or a bath already ? Don't you take a shower/bath before you attend any community or public gathering ? And you called yourself a muslim ?
I suppose if you did not think that I was criticising you in my last post your reply would have been nicer. I am not as dedicated as you are when it comes to showering. I shower once every two days unless there is some kind of special occasion like a wedding. I don't know how much muslim I am or if I am at all. But I doubt that my showering habits would damage my chances of qualifying as a muslim.
Take it easy
-
Peace,
Why has part of this thread been moved here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602306.0
Imraan
-
Peace,
Wakas. This is reproduced from what was sent to the trash thread.
The length of my post was due to
POST 1 was just an intro. POST 2 dealt with some references tha pointed me towards my understanding. POST 3 dealt with the passage in question as an example of salat. So you are right in that I needed to give background to my understanding of the salat concept before showing why I feel the passage is an example of salat. I think it amy also be because I tried to speak in terms that are general rather thyan specific.
Anyway, I'd be interested to hear which points need clarification, even if it's on a pm.
Imraan
-
Peace
Precisely , nothing in the preceeding verses talked about "prayers , let alone "Middle Prayers" , why suddenly in 2238-239 the subject morphed into "The Middle Prayer" , and only to resume to the subject discussed in 2220-237 then again in 2240-242 ?
Peace
Almarh0m
Salamun Alaykum
Could someone please explain how did we come to translate and interpret al Salat al Wusta as "Middle Prayer" in the first place ? If this "Middle Prayer" is so important, then why, amongst 'The Five Ritual Salat' of the sectarian Muslims, not one of them specifically called Al Salat Al Wusta or Middle Prayer?
Like many other muslims, I read AQ regularly and have spent quite some time in reading and re-reading verses of AQ leading up to the much discussed and disputed verse, i.e. 2238 and 2239 . Unless I am mistaken, or unable to grasp what subject(s) is covered by the verses from 2220-2237, the topic discussed under these preceeding verses, were of Women & Orphans , whereas verse 2238-2239 were seen as talking about a distinctly different subject , and only to resume to the original subject discussed previously in the preceeding verses in 2240-2242?
Most of the evidence for "Middle Prayer" presented thus far, looks more like evidence against if we care to re-read or re-study the context and the subject discussed within the those verses. To refresh our memory, below are the verses under discussion .
220 (Their bearings) on this life and the Hereafter. They ask thee concerning orphans. Say "The best thing to do is what is for their good; if ye mix their affairs with yours, they are your brethren; but Allah knows the man who means mischief from the man who means good. And if Allah had wished, He could have put you into difficulties He is indeed Exalted in Power, Wise."
221 Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind That they may celebrate His praise.
222 They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say They are a hurt and a pollution So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.
223 Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.
224 And make not Allah.s (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth all things.
225 Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
226 For those who take an oath for abstention from their wives, a waiting for four months is ordained; if then they return, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
227 But if their intention is firm for divorce, Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
228 Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
229 A divorce is only permissible twice after that, the parties should either hold Together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness. It is not lawful for you, (Men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah. so do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (Themselves as well as others).
230 So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), He cannot, after that, re-marry her until after she has married another husband and He has divorced her. In that case there is no blame on either of them if they re-unite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah. Such are the limits ordained by Allah, which He makes plain to those who understand.
231 When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their ('Iddat), either take them back on equitable terms or set them free on equitable terms; but do not take them back to injure them, (or) to take undue advantage; if any one does that; He wrongs his own soul. Do not treat Allah.s Signs as a jest, but solemnly rehearse Allah.s favours on you, and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things.
232 When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their ('Iddat), do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands, if they mutually agree on equitable terms. This instruction is for all amongst you, who believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is (the course Making for) most virtue and purity amongst you and Allah knows, and ye know not.
233 The mothers shall give suck to their offspring for two whole years, if the father desires to complete the term. But he shall bear the cost of their food and clothing on equitable terms. No soul shall have a burden laid on it greater than it can bear. No mother shall be Treated unfairly on account of her child. Nor father on account of his child, an heir shall be chargeable in the same way. If they both decide on weaning, by mutual consent, and after due consultation, there is no blame on them. If ye decide on a foster-mother for your offspring, there is no blame on you, provided ye pay (the mother) what ye offered, on equitable terms. But fear Allah and know that Allah sees well what ye do.
234 If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner. And Allah is well acquainted with what ye do.
235 There is no blame on you if ye make an offer of betrothal or hold it in your hearts. Allah knows that ye cherish them in your hearts But do not make a secret contract with them except in terms Honourable, nor resolve on the tie of marriage till the term prescribed is fulfilled. And know that Allah Knoweth what is in your hearts, and take heed of Him; and know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
236 There is no blame on you if ye divorce women before consummation or the fixation of their dower; but bestow on them (A suitable gift), the wealthy according to his means, and the poor according to his means;- A gift of a reasonable amount is due from those who wish to do the right thing.
237 And if ye divorce them before consummation, but after the fixation of a dower for them, then the half of the dower (Is due to them), unless they remit it or (the man's half) is remitted by him in whose hands is the marriage tie; and the remission (of the man's half) is the nearest to righteousness. And do not forget Liberality between yourselves. For Allah sees well all that ye do.
238 Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).239 If ye fear (an enemy), pray on foot, or riding, (as may be most convenient), but when ye are in security, celebrate Allah.s praises in the manner He has taught you, which ye knew not (before).
240 Those of you who die and leave widows should bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence; but if they leave (The residence), there is no blame on you for what they do with themselves, provided it is reasonable. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
241 For divorced women Maintenance (should be provided) on a reasonable (scale). This is a duty on the righteous.
242 Thus doth Allah Make clear His Signs to you In order that ye may understand.
My sincere thanks in advance for any comment that helps to clear misperception or mis-understanding of the topic under discussion.
Peace
almarh0m
