2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
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Wakas,
Over the course of the past 2 years I have come to that conclusion also.
You did well to demonstrate the variance in significations of the superlative "wusta" in your first post by using 6828 and 589.
These 2 uses of wusta serve to support this position more than the adjective and verb in 2143 and 1005.
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Peace
I think "wusta" is the opposite of walking/riding.
How many times do people naturally change clothes per day? TWICE. Once in the morning and another time in the evening.
Those TWO times plus the ONE time period between the night learning connection and the daybreak learning connection, make THREE.
I don't agree with this. If the period between the night salat and the daybreak salat were ONE period, why would the verse mention "when you are changing your clothes" in between these two different timings, rather than saying "when you change your clothes and after the night salat and before the daybreak salat" or "after the night salat and before the daybreak salat and when you change your clothes"? Also, if it were one time period, I think it would mention "after the night salat" before "before the daybreak salat". Furthermore, the verse says there are 3 times, then goes on to mention these times separately.
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Post by Joe Betik
salam wakas & all,
maybe now it's appropriate to read these verses
- Hafithoo AAala alssalawati waalssalati alwusta waqoomoo lillahi qaniteena
- Fa-in khiftum farijalan aw rukbanan fa-itha amintum faothkuroo Allaha kama AAallamakum ma lam takoonoo taAAlamoona
2237 is about divorce & the advise on how to behave after the divorce.
2240 is about widows & bequest.so 2238 and 2239 is nestled in between these two situations.
i do not say that it was wrong to hold a view that the two verses (238 & 239) are about prayers (contact or ritual), but that would make the two verses stand out like sore thumbs, since the general message of the verses between 238 to 241 is about marriage, divorce and life after divorce.
personally i am inclined to think that in 238 & 239, the message is still about marriage, divorce and life after divorce. since my understanding of 'salat' is more about 'relationship' (and all its derivatives and implications), i would take the verses to mean
- You (pl.) maintain the relationship as the relationship is central/pivotal, and you uphold in humility for the sake of God.
- But if you were fearful/intimidated, then it is ?a walk or a ride?, then when you are at ease, you should remember God since He has taught what you were never able to understand.
from the above verses we learn how important is to maintain cordial relationship even with our former spouse (ex-wife or ex-husband) and his/her family members. sometimes we may feel intimidated or threatened by divorce, yet God ask us to bear with it in humility for the sake of God. 'a walk or a ride' implies that no matter how difficult it is, we have to bear with it. some people understood the importance or the critical role played by good relationship, but some people don't. for those who have not understood or grasped the importance of relationship, they must take it in stride, i.e. 'a walk or a ride'. or simply, just go along with what God has advised us to do.
my post before this one was about the relationship with God, while this post is about the relationship between humans. the two posts before were about the relationship with the 'feel' in our hearts. 'feel' is a sign from God. like what you feel right now while reading this post (provided you have read this post in a peaceful/tranquil state of heart. reading with a mind full of ideas would not be beneficial to anyone.).
i post this one as an attempt to underline my proposition that 'salat' means 'relationship', and that relationship is never restricted to only the relationship with God, but with all that we are required to relate or to establish and maintain/uphold. and we could read on the explanation, establishment, maintaining/upholding and severing (if necessary) of relationship all over the place in the Qur-an.
the fruits/results of a good relationship with God is beyond words to explain. but perhaps i could say that in short, a good relationship with God will definitely ensure a good relationship with human beings and all of God's creations, thus the mention of establishing the relationship is mentioned in the first surah, "AAabdan itha salla" (9610.). i take this verse to mean "A servant is when he establishes the relationship." here, the effective meaning is the relationship is with God. this should be the first step to become a peacemaker (muslim).
in a relationship, we must communicate. it doesn't matter how (by signs, speech, or whatever), but for a relationship to grow and flourish there must be a communication between the parties involved. it could be a dialogue, but never a monologue. indeed, what is the meaning of a relationship, if there is no communication?
so in our relationship with God, we communicate. the prophets, as mentioned in the Qur-an, spoke to God. if we were to emulate the prophets, especially Ibrahim as the 'imam' (example) for us all, then we must speak to God. ask God anything, as long as it is solely for the purpose of turning yourself to become a true servant of God according to His plans (not what you think a servant of God should be). ask like Ibrahim. ask like Dawood. ask like Sulayman. ask like Maryam. ask like Zakariya. ask what you may, but learn from the narratives (hadith) in the Qur-an, insha-Allah you will get what you want. God never lies when He said, "Remember Me, then I will remember you." or when He said He is a watchful listener, or that He is closer than your very vein.
if God was to communicate to you, it is up to Him to employ the means and ways, or even the place or time (it is appropriate according to Him alone, not yours). it is not limited to speech, nor the feel in your heart (gut feelings?). it might be in the people you meet in the market, or the events before your very eyes.
so basically, for any recourse (e.g. after committing a mistake) or assistance and so forth, seek God. but first, establish the relationship by acknowledging ('rukuAA' God and peacefully and totally submit ('sujood' to God. let God be the guide, the teacher, the friend, the helper, etc., in short let Him be the sole reference.
so i think, this is more than enough to support my proposition that 'salat' means 'relationship' in the most general of terms (please read my first and earlier posts in this thread). i hope it helps.
and as usual, this is merely my personal comprehension. i never ask anyone to follow this idea since this could be wrong as it could be right for you. but a verification from God should be helpful to you.
cheers!
mohammed nohMoved from here.
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peace Joe,
I will briefly highlight some issues with your translation and understanding, some minor some major
- You (pl.) maintain (Arabic hafiz, guard/protect/preserve) (Arabic ala/on) the relationships (Arabic is plural) as (Arabic wa/and) the relationship (is) central/pivotal (evidence for "pivotal" as a possible meaning?), and you uphold in humility for the sake of God.
- But if you were fearful/intimidated (perfect tense feared), then it is ?a walk or a ride? (Arabic active participle walking or riding), then when you are at ease (Arabic amintum, safe/secure, connotation is bodily harm afaik), (Arabic fa/then/so) you should remember God since He has taught what you were never able to understand. (Arabic imperfect, ongoing not knowing)
from the above verses we learn how important is to maintain cordial relationship even with our former spouse (ex-wife or ex-husband) and his/her family members.
It is plural, thus I assume you are forced to interpret it as not only the relationship between ex-spouse but also family relationships. They may not have a family rendering your interpretation awkward in this case.
sometimes we may feel intimidated or threatened by divorce, yet God ask us to bear with it in humility for the sake of God.
No, "feared" is mentioned in 2239 not 2238.
'a walk or a ride' implies that no matter how difficult it is, we have to bear with it. some people understood the importance or the critical role played by good relationship, but some people don't. for those who have not understood or grasped the importance of relationship, they must take it in stride, i.e. 'a walk or a ride'. or simply, just go along with what God has advised us to do.
"walking or riding". You take it as an idiom, but what is the evidence other AQ usage or classical arabic dictionaries or none?
How do you reconcile that in your view in 2238 you say its about ex-spouse, and you say the fear in 2239 is about divorce. The order is unusual, and could only mean one takes the divorce in their stride.
Secondly, what if the reason for divorce is that the spouse was someone bad and so was their family, why guard such relationships post-divorce? Why is this central/pivotal?
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Going to revive this thread. Here is my current understanding
2238 Guard/Preserve/Maintain/Guard over - the/all the - duties/commitments/bonds/relationships, - including - the central duty/bond/commitment/relationship, - and/and so/that is - you shall stand/persist - devoutly - for/to God.
2239 If you are in a state of worry/fear, then take a walk or a ride. Then when/Once you become relaxed/at ease, remember/then remember God because he has taught you what you did not know.
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Going to revive this thread. Here is my current understanding
2238 Guard/Preserve/Maintain/Guard over - the/all the - duties/commitments/bonds/relationships, - including - the central duty/bond/commitment/relationship, - and/and so/that is - you shall stand/persist - devoutly - for/to God.
2239 If you are in a state of worry/fear, then take a walk or a ride. Then when/Once you become relaxed/at ease, remember/then remember God because he has taught you what you did not know.
And what would that be? What would distinguish such duty/bond/commitment/relationship as being central?
There is a distinction in the ayaat which is made by the use of the Arabic term al-wusta. You have interpreted it as central, which is fine, but explain what you interpret as a central duty/bond/commitment/relationship. -
We can see that "middle prayer" or any similar translation doesn't make sense. I will use Rashad Khalifa's translation as an example to illustrate this since he has misinterpreted and inserted words that aren't in 2239. This verse will show that "middle prayer" does not make sense.
The first thing to bear in mind is the context of the verses surounding 2238-239, which is marriage, contracts, divorce, God's comandments in regard to marriage and divorce, etc.
Now let us look at Rashad Khalifa's translation
2238 You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer, and devote yourselves totally to GOD.
2239 Under unusual circumstances, you may pray while walking or riding. Once you are safe, you shall commemorate GOD as He taught you what you never knew.
The key misinterpretations are present in 2239.
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"Fa khiftum" is not "under unusual circumstances." It means "If you fear" or "if you are in a state of fear" and similar expressions.
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The is no derivative of the root "SLW" in the verse
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According to this translation, tradiational prayer is supposed to be done on foot or riding. How are we to bow and prostrate according to the understanding? Where is an exemption listed for this if that is not the case? It is not clear and not a viable interpretation.
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Another key objection I have is How can we totally commemorate God and focus on our salat or "prayer" if we are worrying about something else? We need to understand what we are saying and be able to focus.
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The thing that stands out like a sore thumb is the following Rashad Khalifa and most other translators claim that these verses refer to prayer, and that prayer is to be done for the remembrance/commemoration of God. Why would it say "once/if you are secure/in a state of ease/relaxed, you shall remember God?" This implies that we aren't remembering/commemorating God during our time of fear/worry.
Thus, it makes sense to me that we are to go for a walk/ride to channel away or digest the stress/worry/fear so that we can again focus on remembering God.
Now, what is "al salat al wusta?" Well, for believers it should be their commitment/bond/relationship/duty with/to God. I see the phrase "wa qoomoo li llahi qaniteena" in two different ways, as shown in my translation. It can be understood as something seperate but related to "al salat al wusta," or it can be seen literally as "al salat al wusta."
Thus, my previous translation uses
2238 Guard/Preserve/Maintain/Guard over - the/all the - duties/commitments/bonds/relationships, - including - the central duty/bond/commitment/relationship, - and/and so/that is - you shall stand/persist - devoutly - for/to God.
"Wa" does not have to denote anything separate. In fact, the first "wa" has to be inclusive since we are told to "guard over/maintain all the salawat" - "al salat al wusta" however is emphasized. All of this makes sense when we look at the context. We are to maintain and carefully observe all our "salawat" and always remember what our "central" or "most important" or "most balancing" "salawat" is - it is the one we have with God and/or it is persisting/standing to/for God dutifully/devoutly.
I think the "al wusta" portion can be translated as "central," "most important," "balancing," "most balanced," "most right-minded," etc. I checked all the occurences of "WST" in The Reading and the meanings are as follows in the different verses
1005 "storming/penetrating into the midst/center"
589 "average" or "standard" or "most common"
6828 "Most balanced" or "most equitable" or "most right-minded"
2143 "Impartial" or "balanced" or "middle" or "central" - more likely "impartial/balanced"
Thus, I think "al salat al wusta" can refer to the "central" salat, which can be understood as the "most important" or "key" salat in our life. It could also be understood as the "most balancing" salat in our life. This could make sense in the context of divorce because you could have a partner that takes and takes without giving back, but God does not do that. Quite the contrary, what God gives us is everything and what we do for him is nothing or is almost 0.000000000... compared to what we do for him. Or, it can be seen as this relationship is the one that balances our life from all the bad things/worries that are going on. 2239 becomes very relevant.
Either way, whether "central," "most important" or "key" salat, and whether "and," "and so" or "that is" - the message is clear.
If you ask someone who is following his career closely and committing totally to his career and doing everything their boss says, staying late, dealing with getting yelled at, yearning for a promotion and only focusing on their job/area of expertise "what is your central/most important commitment?" They will name their career/job. Not so for those who trust in/acknoledge God. Similarly, if we understand it as "most balanced/balancing" commitment With all that is going on in a believer's/acknowledger's life - he/she knows that he/she can rely on God and that persisting/standing for/to God helps them and is the most important thing to them. Similar arguments could be used if we substitute in "most right-minded" and similar expressions.
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Salam/Peace, just posting this
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5cbvQyHcUY
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Salaam
Very interesting. Appreciate this Sardar
Haven't spoken to any of you in a while, hope all is well
Thank you dear brother. I am well. In fact it's my birthday
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Salam and Happy Birthday brother Sardar! sun
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Salam and Happy Birthday brother Sardar! ) sun
D
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I currently believe that there are 3 Salats. The 2-Salat theory is interesting nevertheless.
I had a question though. I remember reading somewhere this argument The Koran uses the Arabic word Salawat which means a plural (3 or more). There's another word for 2 Salats which is Salatayn or something. If there were 2 Salats, God would have used that word at least somewhere in the Koran.
What are your thoughts about the above argument? A third Salat performed during the day would also give some support to another verse which talks about the Salat on the day/at the time of gathering.
Another argument in favor of Al Salat Al Wusta is that Al Masjid Al Haram is a similar word.
On another note, could the assembly prayer be specific to people of that time? There's another theory that it's talking about Hajj.
Thanks!
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Salam/Peace, just posting this
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5cbvQyHcUY
Salam!
I am agreed to this when it talks about upholding the balanced relationships. However, as per my understanding this is in context with the nikah and talaq i.e. The subject being discussed. The reation of husband and wife is the basic unit of a society. So one should not break this bond until and unless he/she is unable to carry on. To me 'Rijalan aw Rukbanan' means to go individually/separately or together/accompanying each other after two Talaqs. Talaq does not mean that one must break the agreement of nikah. It means to give a notice for seperation. After two notices the couple has to make a final decision. That is, to go together or to go separate ways.Peace!
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peace,
To clarify, in case there was any confusion, my view is a minimum of two regular/timed salat daily for the mumineen, not two daily.
I had a question though. I remember reading somewhere this argument The Koran uses the Arabic word Salawat which means a plural (3 or more). There's another word for 2 Salats which is Salatayn or something. If there were 2 Salats, God would have used that word at least somewhere in the Koran.
The assumption being that when a command to do X is given it is meant to do X in a 24 hr period. The text would have to make that clear so perhaps its more eloquent to state it as is, but I guess it could be said in both ways.
What are your thoughts about the above argument? A third Salat performed during the day would also give some support to another verse which talks about the Salat on the day/at the time of gathering.
On another note, could the assembly prayer be specific to people of that time? There's another theory that it's talking about Hajj.
Yes, there was a post about it.
Another argument in favor of Al Salat Al Wusta is that Al Masjid Al Haram is a similar word.
I dont see how thats relevant.
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Yes, there was a post about it.
Could you link it?
