Umrah
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aslmualaykm
wow,u know i was expecting a story like that! i know people,no matter where are looking for oportunities to,not sin,because they dont see it as a sin,the whole country is corupt so they do the same,their rulers,allah knows their scholars,so it gets poluted the rest of the things...i heard arabia is corupt as hell,but some muslims because is "islamic" defend it. i would probally had got mad and run out of there,make hajj another time where theres not the season.
and well i wanted to say,you know where people die stampeded (ran over).isnt there where they go to do some shrik? anyone knows,but thats not why they die ,allah knows best,all i say,when that happened this year,which happened alot of time,alot.i heard the number! like 300! i was,where is the so called brotherhood!!!!!!if i ever go im avoiding that.
anyone knows the especific ritual mentioned above?
waslm -
As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.Can someone explain to me what Umrah specifically is, how does one perform one and where and when? Thank you.
Sugar, may Allah Most Merciful helps you and protects you from such people that you met. As i read the sory, i kept hoping that i was reading a sci-fi story or that you're gonna say in the edn that you had a dream like that, but if this really happened to you, if those people are really like that ... than i am so angry that i would not only scream if i witnessed that, what you went through, but i would most likely lose temper, Allah forbid and probably start a small war. Well, i think it's best than if someone goes with me to warn me not to break a few jews there!
Sugar, when yous aid that they were touching you inappropriately, you should report them in England, you're a woman, you have rights in England and as a British citizen you can report them and Saudi Arabia would end up apaologizing on national Tv to Britain.
I'm sorry that this happened to you, i hope things will get better. Insha'Allah.
May Allah Most Powerful bless us all.
May Allah Most Merciful gives you Eden, Sugar.As salamu alaykum.
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Sugar, when yous aid that they were touching you inappropriately, you should report them in England, you're a woman, you have rights in England and as a British citizen you can report them and Saudi Arabia would end up apaologizing on national Tv to Britain.
it won't make any difference IMO. Coz its an "Islamic country" nobody cares. The security guards can defend themselves and say that it's the place where most women hide the stuff they should not bring in to the mosque. I think that could be true but they never searched mine or anybody elses legs, if they searched everyone properly it would not bother me but they did not search everyone properly which made me feel really uncomfortable, it did not seem to me that they were doing their job for the right reason -, however i recall a scholar saying that the punishment for homosexuality in the sharia varies from 100 lashes, imprisonment, death and even burning them to death! The security guards were corrupt, they did not do their job properly i.e. mobile phones were not allowed in the mosque but loads of people still managed to smuggle them in, although they should stop women who come in with mobile phones a woman i was with said she saw a security guard let a woman who she knew had a mobile phone on her into the mosque.
Complaining about the place makes no difference, i told my uncle i was furious with the travel agent for conning us so badly. He said he was not gonna complain because most agents are corrupt, and if you complain about one they tell the other agents and then no agent would let my family go on hajj/umrah with them.
The Islam channel highlighted the problem so many agents recently have had thier licences taken off them for being so corrupt and not providing the service that they claimed they would.
As for Hajj and Umrah I believe that it was an Arab conspiracy against Islam, it's a very convenient way to make so much money. The Quran is grossly mistranslated and a careful study of the Quran would reveal that hajj and umrah is not decreed by god. Although i did originally intend to perform Umrah i mentioned earlier in the thread that i decided to take wakas's advice and just go for an archaeological visit.
I really recommend you read
http//www.free-minds.org/Arab_Conspiracy.htmldon't be put off by the racist comments, but personally i believe that they are justified .
Arabia just confirmed my belief that hajj/umrah would never be something that god would decree, tawaf and sai feel like fruitless pagan rituals IMO.
As for salat Wakas presents a good argument to why it aint a prayer.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3361.0But i can't remember where the actual article is, the above is just one of his threads about the subjects.
However if you still believe that Hajj/Umrah are still decreed by god and that salat is a ritual prayer i think www.quran-islam.org is a good site.
I did go round the black cube several times (mainly to see how people were behaving, to see what of sort of stuff they were uttering, whether they seemed happy/fed up/confused etc-basically i was just being nosy ;D) and i did walk round the place where they did sai, i expected to see 2 mountains there and what i saw was 2 man-made plastic "mountains", well lets just say they looked smaller then hills . I did occasionally perform physical salat devoted to god alone, whereas i don't believe it is shirk i know it is compromising with the idol worshippers > >. I tried to lift up the black cover of the cube to see what was in it but the guy that was near me was pretty annoyed when i just touched the damn thing, he was a worker there so i didn't wanna provoke him. I wanted to see Muhammad?s shrine in Madinah mosque but the damn workers put a book shelf in front of it so in the women's section you could see nothing, i wish i never attempted to see it, the women there were ruthless elektro.it was so creepy, lol it looked is though they were worshipping a book shelf rotfl
peace,
sugar -
peace
wakas didn't say salat is not a prayer, he proved that salat is NOT limited to prayer. Which is the correct understanding imo. Anyways these are the links to his articles
Quran on salat
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/quran_on_salat.htm
This next one is defining what IS salat
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/slw.htm
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wakas didn't say salat is not a prayer, he proved that salat is NOT limited to prayer.
sorry i did not mean to imply that wakas said it was not a prayer at all, i mentioned his articles because they presented a good argument, however it is me that believes that salat is not a prayer, i believe that salat means commitment, and 'wa-roka'is-sujad' is not "bow and prostrate" but is "submit in humility". This is what i believe at the moment, i've seen other arguments for salat and at the moment i believe that Aidid Safar presents the best one, however i may change my mind in the future, i've not done as much research as i should have done.
peace,
sugar -
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I hated the security guards in the sacred mosque in Madinah. They were so pervy, they did not search you properly all they did was feel your boobs then let you in, if they were in England I know I could have got them arrested for sexual harassment!
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He he he!!!!-)-)-) you brought back to me all the memories-) I went in Hadj not Umra so I know what you mean-). I am stil laughing...-)-) poor girl, thanks God the All-Mighty you came back ok. Peace. Myr.
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He he he!!!!-)-)-) you brought back to me all the memories-) I went in Hajj not Umra
I would die if I had to do hajj!! elektro
Peace,
sugar -
peace sugar
read 4102-03 ... its a real-time demonstration of salat.....clearly proves that salat is physical
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Peace Sugar n all,
I just read your post about your experiences, and you have my condolences. But I cant say it was unexpected. I would have been more surprised really if you came back and said that you had a wonderful and enlightening experience. I think you had a much worse time than I did, atleast when I went for umrah it wasn't that bad. But when I worked at the hajj terminal for a month during hajj period, that was pure hell. Think of this, some of the airport workers wore 'hospital masks' (which I should have done) to avoid getting sick from the multitude of sick people going back to their countries. If you were there for hajj (which I take it that this is NOT gonna happen after the previous experience) I would advise you to go and take a look at the Nigeria check in counter at the very far end of the hajj terminal. The airline staff (me at the time) were working behind a cage! Seriously, those guys are rough, fight each other at check-in, carry way excessive baggage and can kick your butt if you disagree with them... and I'm talking about the women!
Jeddah airport is HELL! yuck
No no no, Phoenix, Jeddah airport is HEAVEN compared to the Hajj Terminal in Jeddah. Take my word for it, if you've never been there... pray you never will.peace
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Peace Ashraf,
Can anybody share with me any resources/info pertaining to Hajj Vs Umrah from non-traditional point of view.
Why "vs."? I think that perhaps they are two complementing concepts. I think that the word "3mar" has the connotation of prosper/maintain/populate while the word "hagg" means feast. So those two concepts are complimenting one another.
Peace,
Ayman
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Why "vs."? I think that perhaps they are two complementing concepts. I think that the word "3mar" has the connotation of prosper/maintain/populate while the word "hagg" means feast. So those two concepts are complimenting one another.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
I just wonder the exact meaning coz in FM it was translated as follows
"And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God..."
or
"And complete the Feast and maintainance for God..."
or
"And complete the debate and the visit for God..."Appreciate some enlightenment over the verses ;D
Peace.
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Peace Ashraf,
I just wonder the exact meaning coz in FM it was translated as follows
"And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God..."Pilgrimage and visit are kind of synonymous. So it really doesn't add any information.
"And complete the Feast and maintainance for God..."
or
"And complete the debate and the visit for God..."
Appreciate some enlightenment over the verses ;DYou can't invite all people with a debate. Very few people care to travel to debate with others.
On the other hand, you can invite all people with a "feast". Try it. Just put a sign outside your house saying "free food".
When we read the purpose of the "hajj" in 2228 we see that it is to witness benefits and to remember the name of the god on what he gave us from the livestock. We are told to eat from it and feed the poor. In fact, if we carefully read the whole passage from 2227-37, we can realize that 90% of it is about the livestock. So this is about eating and feeding others the livestock's meat. What do we call that? This is a feast.
Such annual feasts were common and the people of the book had them. In fact, the word "hagg" in the Old Testament means "feast"
From http//www.infobot.org/factpacks/old_test_meanings.fact
Haggai => feast
Haggiah => the Lord's feast
Haggith => rejoicingSo the concept of "hagg"/"feast" is a mundane common concept that was well known to the people of the book.
In light of the purpose of the feast, to witness benefits and eat and feed the poor, I would say that something that has to do with "prosper" is probably the more fitting concept for "umra".
"And complete the feast and the prospering for God..."
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ashraf,
On the other hand, you can invite all people with a "feast". Try it. Just put a sign outside your house saying "free food".
Such annual feasts were common and the people of the book had them. In fact, the word "hagg" in the Old Testament means "feast"
So the concept of "hagg"/"feast" is a mundane common concept that was well known to the people of the book.
In light of the purpose of the feast, to witness benefits and eat and feed the poor, I would say that something that has to do with "prosper" is probably the more fitting concept for "umra".
"And complete the feast and the prospering for God..."
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Thanks for the enlightenment..Hajj and Umrah are similar to eat + hail + pr + group + ! and not about elektro + voodoo + > + ignore
Peace All.
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As Salaamu Alaika ayman,
Peace Ashraf,
Pilgrimage and visit are kind of synonymous. So it really doesn't add any information.
You can't invite all people with a debate. Very few people care to travel to debate with others.
On the other hand, you can invite all people with a "feast". Try it. Just put a sign outside your house saying "free food".
When we read the purpose of the "hajj" in 2228 we see that it is to witness benefits and to remember the name of the god on what he gave us from the livestock. We are told to eat from it and feed the poor. In fact, if we carefully read the whole passage from 2227-37, we can realize that 90% of it is about the livestock. So this is about eating and feeding others the livestock's meat. What do we call that? This is a feast.
Such annual feasts were common and the people of the book had them. In fact, the word "hagg" in the Old Testament means "feast"
From http//www.infobot.org/factpacks/old_test_meanings.fact
Haggai => feast
Haggiah => the Lord's feast
Haggith => rejoicingSo the concept of "hagg"/"feast" is a mundane common concept that was well known to the people of the book.
In light of the purpose of the feast, to witness benefits and eat and feed the poor, I would say that something that has to do with "prosper" is probably the more fitting concept for "umra".
"And complete the feast and the prospering for God..."
Peace,
Ayman
Ayman, do you consider the "hajj" to be like the feast of passover or something for the jews? I still don't see how you can translate "hajj" ( and I use the letter "j" because it more closely represents in transliteration the letter "jeem" in arabic) as "feast"; although I do agree that the "hajj" contains a feast. There are other rituals mentioned about "hajj" also in Al Quran that make it more than just a feast, but more of a gathering for the remembrance of Allah. Also, I dont agree that "feast" fits into all the other ayaat which uses the word "hajj". Again, can you please explain to me why you disagree with the word "pilgrimage" for "hajj"?
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Peace IQO,
It is good to hear from you and to see you back on the forum.
Ayman, do you consider the "hajj" to be like the feast of passover or something for the jews?
I don?t think that it is just the Jews. All cultures and people had some kind of harvest festival.
I think that for the Jews it is probably more like the feast of Sukkot, which starts at the fourth full-moon following the summer solstice (so it takes place in September or October). This would also be the last of the inviolable full-moons. The festival lasts for 7 days. The two days after it are separate holidays but are commonly considered part of the Sukkot festival. So it is 9 days in total, which is close to the 10 days we know about from the great reading.
I still don't see how you can translate "hajj" ( and I use the letter "j" because it more closely represents in transliteration the letter "jeem" in arabic) as "feast"; although I do agree that the "hajj" contains a feast. There are other rituals mentioned about "hajj" also in Al Quran that make it more than just a feast, but more of a gathering for the remembrance of Allah. Also, I dont agree that "feast" fits into all the other ayaat which uses the word "hajj".
What are those other rituals that are not related to the feast?
Also, what are those other signs where ?feast? doesn?t fit?
Again, can you please explain to me why you disagree with the word "pilgrimage" for "hajj"?
I disagree because according to 2227 Abraham invited people with the ?hagg?. How can you invite people with a pilgrimage? You can invite people from a particular religion or sect but not all people. The only tool that would allow you to invite all people is a feast.
Peace,
Ayman
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As Salaamu Alaika Dr. ayman
Peace IQO,
It is good to hear from you and to see you back on the forum.
Thanks for the welcome and kind words. I get very busy sometimes with my family and work since both are very large. ;D alhamdulilaah....But I miss the exchange of dialogue and learning on here when I am away. This forum reminds me to continue to study and grow and not just relax with what I already think that I know and know that I don't know.
I don?t think that it is just the Jews. All cultures and people had some kind of harvest festival.
I think that for the Jews it is probably more like the feast of Sukkot, which starts at the fourth full-moon following the summer solstice (so it takes place in September or October). This would also be the last of the inviolable full-moons. The festival lasts for 7 days. The two days after it are separate holidays but are commonly considered part of the Sukkot festival. So it is 9 days in total, which is close to the 10 days we know about from the great reading.
I agree that most cultures had some type of harvest festival in ancient times, and some still carry them over today. Many associated with them the giving of thanks to their god or gods. But I dont think that "hajj" is about harvesting, although the sacrificing of animals and the feeding of the poor, etc. therewith are integral.
Also, since many cultures celebrate a harvest feast, I dont see how inviting people from all over the earth to yours would make them likely to travel just to eat with you when they can experience the same thing at home. I think a feast is a part of "hajj", but not is only or primary focus.
What are those other rituals that are not related to the feast?
2196
Transliteration Waatimmoo alhajja waalAAumrata lillahi fa-in ohsirtum fama istaysara mina alhadyi wala tahliqoo ruoosakum hatta yablugha alhadyu mahillahu faman kana minkum mareedan aw bihi athan min ra/sihi fafidyatun min siyamin aw sadaqatin aw nusukin fa-itha amintum faman tamattaAAa bialAAumrati ila alhajji fama istaysara mina alhadyi faman lam yajid fasiyamu thalathati ayyamin fee alhajji wasabAAatin itha rajaAAtum tilka AAasharatun kamilatun thalika liman lam yakun ahluhu hadiree almasjidi alharami waittaqoo Allaha waiAAlamoo anna Allaha shadeedu alAAiqabi
Literal And complete the pilgrimage and the visiting of God's House in other than the four forbidden sacred months to God, so if you were restricted/surrounded , so what became easy/possible , from the offerings , and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its place/destination, so who was from you sick/diseased, or with him mild harm from his head so a ransom/redemption from fasting , or charity, or rituals or methods of worship/offerings , so if you became safe/secure, so who enjoyed with the visiting of God's House in other than the four forbidden/sacred months, to the pilgrimage, so what became easy/possible from the offering, so who does not find, so fasting three days in the pilgrimage, and seven(days) if you returned, that is ten complete (days), that (is) to whom his family was not present/attending, (at) the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred, and fear and obey God, and know that God (is) strong (severe in) the punishment.Fasting during the "hajj", although a secondary command, doesn't go along with being part of a feast, i.e. the main purpose for going on the "hajj".
2197
Transliteration Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatun faman farada feehinna alhajja fala rafatha wala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajji wama tafAAaloo min khayrin yaAAlamhu Allahu watazawwadoo fa-inna khayra alzzadi alttaqwa waittaqooni ya olee al-albabi
Literal The pilgrimage (are in) known months, so who made the pilgrimage a the duty/specified on himself in them (the four known months), so no obscenity/indecency (intercourse) , and no debauchery , and no arguing/disputing in the pilgrimage, and what you make/do from goodness/generosity , God knows (of) it, and be provided (prepared), so that (the) provision's best (is) the fear and obedience, and fear and obey Me, you (owners) of the pure minds/hearts.The items in bold don't go in line with purpose of the "hajj" to be only for feasting. Why prohibit one from his wife during this time? Why no arguing/disputing doing a feast only?
2198
Transliteration Laysa AAalaykum junahun an tabtaghoo fadlan min rabbikum fa-itha afadtum min AAarafatin faothkuroo Allaha AAinda almashAAari alharami waothkuroohu kama hadakum wa-in kuntum min qablihi lamina alddalleena
Literal No offense/guilt/sin (is) on you that you desire grace/favour from your Lord, so if you flowed/spread from Arafat (a mountain), so mention/remember God at the Forbidden/Sacred Place of Worship , and mention/remember Him as He guided you, and that truly you were from before Him from (E) the misguided.What does flowing down from an elevated place have to do with a feast? What is this ritual and it's significance?
2199
Transliteration Thumma afeedoo min haythu afada alnnasu waistaghfiroo Allaha inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun
Literal Then flow/spread from where/when the people flowed/spread , and ask for God's forgiveness, that God (is) forgiving, most merciful.Where is it that the people flow/spread from and why? How is this related only to feasting?
2200
Transliteration Fa-itha qadaytum manasikakum faothkuroo Allaha kathikrikum abaakum aw ashadda thikran famina alnnasi man yaqoolu rabbana atina fee alddunya wama lahu fee al-akhirati min khalaqin
Literal So if you accomplished/carried out your rituals or methods worship , so mention/remember God as you mention/remember your fathers or stronger remembrance, so from the people who say "Our Lord, give us in the present world." And for him (there is) no share of blessing/fortune in the end (other life).Which rituals or methods of worship are implied here? How are only related to feasting and not a bigger purpose for the "hajj"?
Also, what are those other signs where ?feast? doesn?t fit?
Actually, the definition of "feast" doesn't fit not because of it not being able to be used in an exact ayat; but rather because afterwards it's definition doesn't suit all the ayat that follow the ayat that it would be used in. For example 2227 through 2228. You could probably insert "party" instead of feast in all the ayat and they make some since also. But that doesn't make it an acceptable translation of "hajj", especially since there is nothing in the root to suggest this definition, nor has anyone that I heard of in history every used it in this way. Please correct me about this history if I am unaware of it.
I disagree because according to 2227 Abraham invited people with the ?hagg?. How can you invite people with a pilgrimage? You can invite people from a particular religion or sect but not all people. The only tool that would allow you to invite all people is a feast.
Peace,
Ayman
Pilgrimage 1. A journey to a sacred place or shrine. 2. A long journey or search, esp. one of exalted purpose or moral significance.
I think you can invite people who don't live at the "site" to witness the benefits and guidance given by Allah. Obviously not all will accept the invitation just as all don't accept the invitation to accept Al Quran, but you can invite them, or call them to it with propogation. I think you can and we should invite all people to follow the Deen of Al Islam as defined in Al Quran. I believe that is what Allah is telling us, to invite all people too, not just invite our own believers. Calling or inviting people to the truth and allowing those that are not considered believers or muslims yet to come to the site and hear the message of Al Quran from Allah, is not the same as allowing those who are not coming to hear and/or accept the message from Allah to His Al Masjid Al Haram (i.e. pagans that are not coming to participate in the "hajj" rituals).
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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This forum reminds me to continue to study and grow and not just relax with what I already think that I know and know that I don't know.
Peace IQO, this is a powerfull reminder '(. Thank you.
Fasting during the "hajj", although a secondary command, doesn't go along with being part of a feast, i.e. the main purpose for going on the "hajj".
You have the point.
Pilgrimage 1. A journey to a sacred place or shrine. 2. A long journey or search, esp. one of exalted purpose or moral significance.
Would you kind enough to elaborate the term "Umrah". I would like to understand the difference.
Calling or inviting people to the truth and allowing those that are not considered believers or muslims yet to come to the site and hear the message of Al Quran from Allah, is not the same as allowing those who are not coming to hear and/or accept the message from Allah to His Al Masjid Al Haram (i.e. pagans that are not coming to participate in the "hajj" rituals).
I would say, that Hajj must be to specific location. It is a unique place, non allegorical. In this place, the visitor can view and witness themselves the religious civilization, history and archaeological remains of monotheist origin. Thus for non-believer. atheist or pagan, the visit to such place is an eye opener towards discovery of God and finally submission. Travel itself is a rewarding effort. Following are the link for travel related proverbs http//www.itravelnet.com/useful/travelproverbs.html
peace IQO, Ayman and All.
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As Salaamu Alaika Ashraf,
Peace IQO, this is a powerfull reminder '(. Thank you.
You have the point.
Would you kind enough to elaborate the term "Umrah". I would like to understand the difference.
Unfortunately, at this time, all I can give you on umrah will be the following; but Allah willing I will add some comments soon
= Ayn-Miim-Ra = to inhabit, dwell, mend, repair/revive, tend, build, promote, cultivate, make habitable, to make better, to develop, populate, to serve/uphold/observe/regard, to visit, to colonize, aimed at it, frequently visit, a visit in which is the cultivation of love/affection, repairing to an inhabited place.
perform a sacred visitation, minor pilgrimmage, pilgrimmage with fewer rites.
to remain alive (save life), to live, life, age, long-life, old-age.amara vb. (I) - perf. act. 309 x2, impf. act. 917, 918, pcple. pass. 524,
amr n.m. 1572,
imarah n.f. 919,
imran n. prop. 333, 335, 6612,
umrah n.f. 2196 x2,
umur n.m. 1016, 1670, 2144, 225, 2618, 2845, 3511,ammara vb. (II) - impf. act. 3537, 3668, impf. pass. 296, 3511, pcple. pass. 3511,
itamara vb. (VIII) - 2158,
istamara vb. (X) - perf. act. 1161
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 5, pages 438, 439, 440, 441, 442
I would say, that Hajj must be to specific location. It is a unique place, non allegorical. In this place, the visitor can view and witness themselves the religious civilization, history and archaeological remains of monotheist origin. Thus for non-believer. atheist or pagan, the visit to such place is an eye opener towards discovery of God and finally submission. Travel itself is a rewarding effort. Following are the link for travel related proverbs http//www.itravelnet.com/useful/travelproverbs.html
peace IQO, Ayman and All.
Very well said, alhamdulilaah. angel
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace