Does al quran promote a religion? Not to me.
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the example u gave is 1 wherein quran promotes a general wisdom, which many other books will promote
Exactly. Please ponder this point along with .
so the quran seems to do more than give just general wisdom!
Why do you not regard recognition of one's creator/source as part of "general wisdom"?
If 'al quran' says to praise one's sustainer, thats not religious, thats just being grateful! If someone passes you the salt at dinner, its only right to be appreciative or say "thanks" is it not?
If it says to cleanse oneself before establishing the bond with one's Teacher or others, thats not religious, thats just being respectful. When you go to school, you prefer to go clean do you not?And thats the way I see these things.
Dont get me wrong, I can see your point, on the surface, the guidance/recommendations/advice in 'al quran' could be seen as religious by some, but to me they just aren't. They are simply good advice, which you are free to follow or not.
Wakas
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religion a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power.
supernatural not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material -
Also, when speaking with people, I tend not to recommend religion, or "Islam". I simply advise following universal principles (honesty, charitable, peaceful, growing etc) and then I say one should read 'al quran' like a philosophy book, for example. Read it, think it over and if you find something you like in it, try it, if you dont then no-one's forcing you to follow it... and if I'm feeling the person has a good soul, I recommend them to follow their heart too .
I tend to get a better response with this approach, although that is not the reason I adopted it. My nature/style is very mellow.
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Peace wakas. I feel thats a very good approach you have when talking with people.
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peace mq,
I would consider a religious act to be one which has no basis in reality, i.e. it is difficult to see/explain why its being done other than because its being called for as part of a "religion".
I hope that makes sense, because it was quite a tough question
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wakas wrote
Exactly. Please ponder this point along with .yes....but like i said many other books will promote being unwasteful...hence this wisdom may be general to different books!
wakas wrote
Why do you not regard recognition of one's creator/source as part of "general wisdom"?recognition of one god and of god not having a son is not general to different books hence this wisdom may not be general to different books!
wakas wrote
If 'al quran' says to praise one's sustainer, thats not religious, thats just being grateful! If someone passes you the salt at dinner, its only right to be appreciative or say "thanks" is it not?its not about being appreciative only when u are passed salt....gratefulness to god is something to be observed at all times! -)
wakas wrote
If it says to cleanse oneself before establishing the bond with one's Teacher or others, thats not religious, thats just being respectful. When you go to school, you prefer to go clean do you not?a fair amount of cleanliness and hygiene would be expected at all times..this would be general to all books!
but can u esatblish the salat with merely clean hands and feet? would u go to school simply washing ur face and hands and wiping ur head and feet? no u would ensure a complete body wash if u have reasons to...so v would expect cleanliness to be a pre-condition before establishing salat!
but unless u take a complete bath wherein u wash the hands and wipe the feet by default, i would reckon u would still need to wash ur face and hands and wipe ur head and feet before salat in accordance with 56! also, 443 is of interest!
i dunno if u get what i am saying there! -S
wakas wrote
And thats the way I see these things.cool! -)
wakas wrote
Dont get me wrong, I can see your point, on the surface, the guidance/recommendations/advice in 'al quran' could be seen as religious by some, but to me they just aren't. They are simply good advice, which you are free to follow or not.like i said there are points in the quran which most will agree to not being extravagant for one! i have pantheist friends and if i say to them 'the quran says to not be extravagant', they will agree quran indeed has wisdom! however, if i tell them to believe in one god, rather than all is god, they will no longer find the quran wise! they do not recognize the quran to be from god, rather the best they will see it as is the work of a man who had some spiritual insight and wrote his own experiences a fallible work, but this is not what the quran says! so while they will agree with a part of it, they will reject a part thereof! will a christian see as wisdom quran's view that it is a grave transgression to call jesus the son of god? hence i said there is wisdom in it which will be general to all, and wisdom which some may find to be wisdom but others may not!
wakas wrote
religion a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power.
supernatural not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or materialthis 1 i dont get u urself define religion as pertaining to supernatural power, and v see that the quran does talk about the supernatural of god itself, then how according to ur own definition of religion do u think quran in no way promotes 'religion'? are not concepts like one god and christ not being son of god related to the supernatural?
wakas wrote
I would consider a religious act to be one which has no basis in reality, i.e. it is difficult to see/explain why its being done other than because its being called for as part of a "religion".could u give an example?
and like i asked do u consider bible a religious book?
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Peace be upon you Wakas,
I agree with your point, but its a tricky answer. The word "religion" means to "tie back", and what we are tying back is man to God, cause right now most think they are seperate. They think that devils and angels and so on are outside of "them". With this reasoning, it is "religion" but there is really only one religion, that is TRUTH.
So when I say I dont follow "religions", its due to most peoples misconception of religion. But it truth I do follow religion (singular).
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Peace,
By my understanding, the word religion comes from the word "religa", which was used for two roman infrantry groups joined together in battle to form one group. So religion was used to 'join God and men'. Which is almost the same as idolfree's word. I'll check it out further..
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Well Wakas, I know the question was tough because I've been asked it before and my answer was about the same as yours. The point which I was coming to was that the classification system which we both choose is al-quraan (furqaan is something which seperates and that's what classification does) and therefore, we should in theory stick to the words al-quraan itself uses and that is 'deen'. There's no such difference between 'religion' and 'way of life' according to al-quraan. Whatever your 'deen' is, whether you're in servitude to The Rabb of the universe or the rabb of manchester united (who takes your money while giving you the latest kit), that's a deen itself.
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religion a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power.
supernatural not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or materialThey were not my definitions, I just took them from the internet. I chose them because they seemed reasonable.
I was trying to point out that it implies religion is to do with a supernatural power, and supernatural means not existing in nature. Well, does God exist in nature? Tough question, but I like the answer of Abraham, who through observing nature came to the realisation of God. This tells me that God has left signs/ayatin in our world, and for me, that's just as good as Him being there.a fair amount of cleanliness and hygiene would be expected at all times..this would be general to all books!
I know. Will twice daily suffice?
but unless u take a complete bath wherein u wash the hands and wipe the feet by default, i would reckon u would still need to wash ur face and hands and wipe ur head and feet before salat in accordance with 56! also, 443 is of interest!
I disagree. If one has washed those areas shortly before establishing the bond, then one wouldn't need to wash them again, or at least, thats my opinion.
could u give an example?
Hmm, how about circuiting the "Kabba" seven times anti-clockwise? If one can show how this act is explainable/based in reality, then please do so.
and like i asked do u consider bible a religious book?
If it contains acts that are not based in reality, then yes, I would consider those parts religious.
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Well Wakas, I know the question was tough because I've been asked it before and my answer was about the same as yours.
Well, I do think independant thought converging is not a bad sign.
Are you saying I should be using "deen" rather than "obligation" when speaking in English and communicating with others who speak in English? Perhaps, I would use "deen" with someone I knew was on the same wavelength as me and would take it to mean what I mean. -
WakasWell, I do think independant thought converging is not a bad sign.
Yes, agreed.
Are you saying I should be using "deen" rather than "obligation" when speaking in English and communicating with others who speak in English? Perhaps, I would use "deen" with someone I knew was on the same wavelength as me and would take it to mean what I mean.
Well, the word 'deen' is a sound like the word 'religion' and 'way of life'. Al-quraan gives that word a set of processes which cam happen in reality (for example, takhallas-ad-deen is the 'exclusivising' of ad-deen to be solely for Allah). When we consign the word 'deen' to a certain word, we might find that the full complement of processes can no longer fit our translation. Hence, I prefer to use the word ad-deen. I do however, concede that in the interim, you need to bridge the gap and that's where other words come in.
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wakas wrote
They were not my definitions, I just took them from the internet. I chose them because they seemed reasonable.huh! so u do find them common with ur understanding!
wakas wrote
I was trying to point out that it implies religion is to do with a supernatural power, and supernatural means not existing in nature. Well, does God exist in nature? Tough question, but I like the answer of Abraham, who through observing nature came to the realisation of God. This tells me that God has left signs/ayatin in our world, and for me, that's just as good as Him being there.supernatural means something beyond science and laws of nature....god is beyond science isnt it? god is supernatural! quran does talk about god! quran does talk about "religion" according to the provided definition! -)
wakas wrote
I know. Will twice daily suffice?depends....or will it?
wakas wrote
I disagree. If one has washed those areas shortly before establishing the bond, then one wouldn't need to wash them again, or at least, thats my opinion.how shortly before? -)
wakas wrote
Hmm, how about circuiting the "Kabba" seven times anti-clockwise? If one can show how this act is explainable/based in reality, then please do so.dunno about the 7-times anti-clockwise circuiting thing but moving about it observing it, why not? if the bayt has significance and god says it has....then why not? would u not observe a monument properly? then would u shy away from observing the bayt? (ofcourse it can very well be debated whether it is physical or not...but assumin it is)! but in all fairness i am definitely looking at the word tawaf to see if there are alternatives, though as of now i will stick with what i said!
wakas wrote
If it contains acts that are not based in reality, then yes, I would consider those parts religious.dunno what reality means to u...but it does talk about god, just like quran supernatural religious! -S
how about the wisdom part do u agree it has wisdom, some of which is general to all, and rest which is not?
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god is beyond science isnt it?
science is studying/observing natural phenomena seeking the truth. Please remember 4153, it is the same thing!
If God is the truth, science is a perfectly acceptable avenue to utilise to realise God, therefore how can God be beyond science?how shortly before?
because thats what i thought you meant. i couldn't leave it wide open, otherwise it could be as long as you wanted, which wouldn't make sense in terms of being clean.
yes, i consider parts of the bible have wisdom, some of which can be found in other books, some might not be found elsewhere.
so you went from 7 circuits anti-clockwise to... just observation. can i conclude you cannot find this act based in reality?
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wakas wrote
science is studying/observing natural phenomena seeking the truth. Please remember 4153, it is the same thing!
If God is the truth, science is a perfectly acceptable avenue to utilise to realise God, therefore how can God be beyond science?its not me...its the definitions which u gave which say that! u cannot say words then walk back on them! -)
but i havent heard of an study or observation by 'scientists' which has found god to be true! ofcourse, if u mean observation and reasoning rather than personally verifying (like i wont believe in god unless i see it), than yes there are signs for who have conviction! but those who do not have conviction, will never see these signs nor believe...they will always want 'concrete' proof of god! -)
wakas wrote
because thats what i thought you meant. i couldn't leave it wide open, otherwise it
could be as long as you wanted, which wouldn't make sense in terms of being clean.can u quanitify "shortly before"? so simply make sense in terms of being clean!
wakas wrote
yes, i consider parts of the bible have wisdom, some of which can be found in other books, some might not be found elsewhere.i was askin about quran! -S
wakas wrote
so you went from 7 circuits anti-clockwise to... just observation. can i conclude you cannot find this act based in reality?i went from 7 anti-clockwise circuits to...? could u elaborate that?
yes i do not find anything to promote goin around it 7 times...but to go about it observin it once...yes...or do u consider the bayt of god not worthy of being observed?
do v conclude according to ur definition of "religion" and "supernatural", as we have seen throughout this post, u do believe that quran promotes religion? -)
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its not me...its the definitions which u gave which say that! u cannot say words then walk back on them!
Walk back on what exactly? Please be specific.
but i havent heard of an study or observation by 'scientists' which has found god to be true! ofcourse, if u mean observation and reasoning rather than personally verifying (like i wont believe in god unless i see it), than yes there are signs for who have conviction! but those who do not have conviction, will never see these signs nor believe...they will always want 'concrete' proof of god!
So you're saying no "scientist" has ever came to God, from being an atheist/agnostic/whatever, as a result of his studies in science? Highly unlikely, and unverifiable. Abraham observed nature and came to the realisation of God, do with that what you want.
can u quanitify "shortly before"?
"shortly before" means any time period in which one would not become unclean from other activity, simple. it cant be quantified specifically, because it will be variable with one's activity/environment etc.
i was askin about quran!
same answer.
i went from 7 anti-clockwise circuits to...? could u elaborate that?
You asked me for an example of a religious act, I gave one, you started to explain part of the act, which I assume you did to attempt to base it in reality. At this, you failed. The point is, you acknowledged it didn't make sense / wasn't based in reality (see below).
yes i do not find anything to promote goin around it 7 times...but to go about it observin it once...yes...or do u consider the bayt of god not worthy of being observed?
the bayt of God is worthy of study, aren't we studying it right now? Anyways, dont assume what I think as bayt is what you think.
do v conclude according to ur definition of "religion" and "supernatural", as we have seen throughout this post, u do believe that quran promotes religion? -)
No. If you think you have concluded from my posts that I somehow showed I believe 'al quran' promotes religion then instead of making vague statements and dancing around the topic, please point out specifically how you concluded this.
A simple question...
Do you consider the process of observing/studying natural phenomena to find the truth is what "science" promotes? Yes or no?
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wakas wrote
Walk back on what exactly? Please be specific.wakas wrote
They were not my definitions, I just took them from the internet. I chose them because they seemed reasonable.u were asked for ur understanding of religion...not net definitions...but yes, i will keep in mind the future possibility of dissociations! -)
wakas wrote
So you're saying no "scientist" has ever came to God, from being an atheist/agnostic/whatever, as a result of his studies in science? Highly unlikely, and unverifiable.do u understand the difference between 'scientists' and 'no "scientist''? can u point out to the scientific study which has verified quran being from god?
can u point out anybody who verified quran's claim that christ was not killed? or that jesus healed the blind? do u believe by that?
wakas wrote
Abraham observed nature and came to the realisation of God, do with that what you want.could u read a little better? maybe thinking will follow! -) i already said observing the universe 1 can deduce god...but many people believe in god...v are talking about the text of the quran...do u not know people who cannot digest that god can do miracles? and they reduce everything to allegories? by the way what do u say about christ and muhammad? -)
wakas wrote
"shortly before" means any time period in which one would not become unclean from other activity, simple. it cant be quantified specifically, because it will be variable with one's activity/environment etc.56 O you who believe, if you rise to attend the contact-method, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles;...
does it say to wash and wipe when u approach the salat......or does it say to wash and wipe only when u think u are unclean and need to?
i am not interested in ur opinions...rather in what the quran says....do u agree by what is there? -)
wakas wrote
same answer.yes, so perhaps u now understand what i meant by wisdom general to all...and wisdom not so general...cool! -)
wakas wrote
You asked me for an example of a religious act, I gave one,ahan!
wakas wrote
you started to explain part of the act, which I assume you did to attempt to base it in reality. At this, you failed. The point is, you acknowledged it didn't make sense / wasn't based in reality (see below).do away with ur assumptions....i want my words and not ur assumptions! -)
at what i failed? like u urself point out...i agreed that i do not find agreement with the current custom of the majority...so why do u talk without understanding what the other person says? is it not better to ask for clarifications rather than just make empty claims based on assumptions? -)
wakas wrote
the bayt of God is worthy of study, aren't we studying it right now? Anyways, dont assume what I think as bayt is what you think.huh? i already said to "assume" bayt is a physical place...so whats with the caution? read better! and in anycase i am interested in bayt according to quran and not assumptions! -)
wakas wrote
No. If you think you have concluded from my posts that I somehow showed I believe 'al quran' promotes religion then instead of making vague statements and dancing around the topic, please point out specifically how you concluded this.lolz..chill...now i understand some people need to be talked to slowly! -) so here is what has transpired so far
wakas wrote
Of course, we will have to define what "religion" is first.yes....v will need to define 'religion' since u stated that according to u quran does not promote a religion....what according to u is 'religion'?
wakas wrote
religion a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power.
supernatural not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or materialso according to that which u provided religion pertains to supernatural power!
from the definition u provided of "supernatural" not existing in nature and cannot be explained by natural laws!
according to what u provided religion pertains to that which does not exist in nature or cannot be explained by natural laws!
now observe the nature around u and verify this in nature or explain by natural laws
2247 And they ask you to hasten on the punishment, and Allah will by no means fail in His promise, and surely a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you number.
325 He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.
704 To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
and this
22 7. And because the Hour will come, there is no doubt thereof; and because Allah will raise those who are in the graves.
based on nature and observations is resurrection natural or supernatural? do u believe in resurrection?
wakas wrote
A simple question...Do you consider the process of observing/studying natural phenomena to find the truth is what "science" promotes? Yes or no?
first make a stand...a firm stand is that what "science" promotes according to u, or what u have taken off the net! -)
and yes..how do u understand 4153?
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I will skip over your habit of modifying your wording half way through our discussion and retorting with numerous new questions and try and answer the main points.
Its a pity you quote 56 leaving out "and if you were impure/unclean , so be purified/cleaned" or neglect in 443 where it says "...until you wash/bathe".
i already said observing the universe 1 can deduce god
This proves God's signs are in nature, thus a scientist/anyone can come to God through study of nature/universe/whatever.
And as for explaining the signs you referenced. Have you heard of the theory of relativity? And for resurrection, luckily 'the reading' gives us examples in nature for us to ponder upon. Once again, grounding itself in reality... or at least, using it as a tool to understanding the bigger picture.
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Peace
is resurrection natural or supernatural? do u believe in resurrection?
I'd suggest you adhere to some advice and observe the signs .
The signs show why one should believe in the resurrection .
I believe the resurrection is as natural as life, as death, and confusion.
Joe
