A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23
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From which verse did this single men come from ? Any way the assumption of single men being available is information outside the Quran which you can not use as argument against the clear message allowing polygamy in the Quran.
Did you even read my other thread? I am not referring to verses, I am asking a question about the possible demographic of that area.
There were high rates of maternal mortality, right?
There was female infanticide, right?
What do you think is the result?
Is it a 'clear' message that polygamy is allowed for any individual with the exception of the Prophet Muhammad? And if it were, why is it also discouraged?
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Any way the assumption of single men being available is information outside the Quran which you can not use as argument against the clear message allowing polygamy in the Quran.
False. There is a verse in the Quran (don't remember where) that says that they should not kill their female children. That indicates it was common practice, and even if not common, it happened often enough to warrant a verse condemning it.
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Peace San
Good argument. But the problem I see is that the clause is qualified by...even if it is your ardent desire( were very careful),...
and continued with ..."; so do not sway too greatly and leave her as one hanging in a void. "
If the verse ended with " you will never be able to be equal between the ladies" then your argument is valid but it has a qulaifier and a continuation. One can take up the argument
Clueless on the pretty youth
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Sarah,
Its the verse "Oh wives of the Prophet"...it occurs more than once
Killing the women does not mean less women. We can use outside factors only if the message in the Quran can not be understood. But polygamy is clearly allowed in the Quran . So outside assumption even if it is correct can not over rule the clear verse.
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orphans and widows are terms used to describe paragraph spacing in word-processing.
If a paragraph runs onto two pages the lines on the bottom of the first page are referred to as orphans and the lines on the top of page two are referred to as widows.
Any way orphan mean a motherless or fatherless or parentless police
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Killing the women does not mean less women.
yeah
Say there are 52 boys born, and 48 girls. Of those 48 girls, say 5 are killed as infants. The kids then grow up and are now in their twenties. Do you not have more boys than girls?
This is very simple arithmetic. -
orphans and widows are terms used to describe paragraph spacing in word-processing.
If a paragraph runs onto two pages the lines on the bottom of the first page are referred to as orphans and the lines on the top of page two are referred to as widows.
offtopic
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We can use outside factors only if the message in the Quran can not be understood. But polygamy is clearly allowed in the Quran . So outside assumption even if it is correct can not over rule the clear verse.
nope, it isn't. If it was, it wouldn't be debatable, and you wouldn't have so many verses discouraging it, that can be taken as something that was common practice/ traditional at that time, without being Quranically justified, like the verses telling people to 'free the slaves.'
It doesn't mean that slavery is 'allowed but discouraged' in the Quran, but it's setting a precedent to bring about, over time, a situation where slavery is eradicated.
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There are other factors as men having a lower life expectancy than women due to various reasons such as war, travel, bad life style habits, natural causes etc...this might lead to more women than men in a society.
Again these factors can not over rule the Quran.I would say Polygamy is allowed with checks, it is not encouraged or discouraged, certainly not promoted or celebrated as it happend to be the case in these societies where the permission for polygamy was certainly misused.
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Peace San
and continued with ..."; so do not sway too greatly and leave her as one hanging in a void. "
Now is that called the equal (al-`adl, as in perfect balance) or is that an approach to get closer to the equal?
Peace San
But the problem I see is that the clause is qualified by...even if it is your ardent desire( were very careful),...
and continued with ..."; so do not sway too greatly and leave her as one hanging in a void. "
If the verse ended with " you will never be able to be equal between the ladies" then your argument is valid but it has a qulaifier and a continuation. One can take up the argument
Please elaborate on what qualifier you meant.
What part of "You can never be equal to the ladies even if it is your ardent desire" (i.e. were very careful as per your comment)
can possibly negates the statement
"You can never be equal to the ladies"?And what part of "so do not sway too greatly and leave her as one hanging in a void. "
can possibly negates the statement
"You can never be equal to the ladies"? -
What is your evidence to say that Orphan means fatherless and not parentless ?
Need something better than the distorted dictionary
OK. Great argument. We all need something better than the distorted dictionary. Here's one entry anyway.
Ya-Ta-Miim = orphan, fatherless, become isolated or lonely, solitary, weary, jaded, become widow, become without father before puberty/maturity.
yatim n.m. (pl. yatama) 283, 2177, 2215, 2220, 42, 43, 46, 48, 410, 436, 4127, 4127, 6152, 841, 1734, 1882, 597, 768, 8917, 9015, 936, 939, 1072
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, page 317Maybe someone else can come up with something better than the distorted dictionary, coming from the Quran itself? Please elaborate.
And while we are waiting for such evidence, what about you bring up the evidence that this entry of yatama is distorted? (ed)
Maybe you can start by researching all countries/nations where Arabic has been used officially/traditionally/historically and cross-check what yatama is used for?
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Clueless on the pretty youth
I honestly don't ???
One of the latter comment answers it
... as it happend to be the case in these societies where the permission for polygamy was certainly misused.
What i often witnessed in my country is that "the permission for polygamy" was certainly misused to marry a younger lady (in one case "girl" is more accurate) --without anything to do with "yatama"-- by men already married, with children.
That is why instead of stating that "POLYGAMY IS ALLOWED!", we better focus on "THERE ARE CONDITIONS!" ("checks", as you said) and spread the word to those who are still mis-promoting or mis-celebrating polygamy. And in my opinion, YATAMA is the key CONDITION.
And as you said yourself previously, "if you fear that you will not be just/equal, then one, or ma malakat aymanukum".
Notice the condition is not being not just/equal itself--which is clarified in 4129 (yes, you will NEVER be just/equal towards the ladies), but the condition begins with "you fear" (م. So of course we can interpret if one does not fear that he will not be just/equal, he might as well feel free to marry more than one. Still, pay attention to the first condition in the verse.Also please pay attention to the words qisT and `adl. The word 'adl is what is used in 43 and 4129 regarding the ladies/women, this shows the connection.
Peace.
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An Orphan has to be parentless (i.e. without both father and mother)since the issue of guardianship will not arise even if one parent was living.
Please explain how a mother with a newborn infant, for example, could guard, feed and nurture her baby, and work to get her little baby fed at the same time.
If you have witnessed how raising an infant to a toddler (and even still afterward) can take all the mother's attention, then i thought you would at least re-consider your comment above.
Come to poor countries and see for yourself (i.e., ayatin outside the Quran to compare ayatin inside the Quran with), how a widowed woman with a fatherless child could end up begging on the street.
Peace,