why is shirk an unforgivable offence decreed by the creator?
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Salaam,
My opinion on this would be that ALL shirk/idol worship is blatanty man-made and so if we choose to worship something we really, deep-down know is man-made then we are commiting a gross sin. It's pretty obvious that whatever created the Universe is not contained within the pottery skills of those who make idols to worship, and it's pretty obvious that Jesus and Muhammad were messengers and not partners to whom we are to pay part worship. However, the majority of religious people follow what the majority in their religion do and so win each other's approval. This feeling keeps them happy but for those of us who truly believe and do out best to seek God, know that modern popular interpretations of religion are now divided by the twists men have put on God's truth.
Peace,
Stitch
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Peace simple. Democrats are supposed to value and respect the opinion of all members of the community,and to better all the community (theoretically anyway.)....Im just going by the logic of your classification....
I dont believe in this mushrik/kafir/believer categorisation/division of mankind...We all have traits of shirk,kufr and belief in us....every one of us...
The division is at times arbitrary and unrealistic.....You have to take people as they are...I dont understand the need for such black and white,neat,conclusive theoretical divisions of people..I will just give people the benefit of the doubt before classifying them....Maybe people who dont work for all the communities benefit,are un-educated,or have their reasons for not doing so....it doesnt mean i condemn them to eternal punishment....Because unfortunately when you classify someone as a muslim or kafir,its very easy to demonise,oppress,or victimise him,or say he is doomed eternally if he doesnt change to your life-style.....
And some who are classified as mushriks seem to be better in behaviour than muslims... -
Peace simple. Democrats are supposed to value and respect the opinion of all members of the community,and to better all the community (theoretically anyway.)....Im just going by the logic of your classification....
I dont believe in this mushrik/kafir/believer categorisation/division of mankind...We all have traits of shirk,kufr and belief in us....every one of us...
The division is at times arbitrary and unrealistic.....You have to take people as they are...I dont understand the need for such black and white,neat,conclusive theoretical divisions of people..I will just give people the benefit of the doubt before classifying them....Maybe people who dont work for all the communities benefit,are un-educated,or have their reasons for not doing so....it doesnt mean i condemn them to eternal punishment....Because unfortunately when you classify someone as a muslim or kafir,its very easy to demonise,oppress,or victimise him,or say he is doomed eternally if he doesnt change to your life-style.....
And some who are classified as mushriks seem to be better in behaviour than muslims...Lets see when People go on a spree killing looting (see sura 9) you have to classify those and sort them out as well , don't tell me that you are so forgiving you willforgive people like what they did in africa and in bosnia.
So until they change for the better you cannot forgive them ever.
you are confusing your self by using arabic words like muslim - stick to english Br.
Bad, good ugly ...........so forth.
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Peace simple. How does me classifying someone as a kafir/mushrik help me to stop them when they go on a 'killing spree'....? I see you are another person who thinks they can see if a person is confused or not through a computer screen...? Who are you to tell me what to stick to or not? Are you an arab linguist? And did no 'killing sprees' occur in the middle east or numerous places in the name of 'quranic' ideology...
You talk about betterment for all society....make sure you dont fall into the mistake,you mentioned earlier,of only wanting to benefit your own 'quranicly defined' sect.
peace all. -
Peace simple. How does me classifying someone as a kafir/mushrik help me to stop them when they go on a 'killing spree'....? I see you are another person who thinks they can see if a person is confused or not through a computer screen...? Who are you to tell me what to stick to or not? Are you an arab linguist? And did no 'killing sprees' occur in the middle east or numerous places in the name of 'quranic' ideology...
You talk about betterment for all society....make sure you dont fall into the mistake,you mentioned earlier,of only wanting to benefit your own 'quranicly defined' sect.
peace all.Ha ha i got you hot!
sorry wasn't done in any bad way ..just funning you are a great person.
Lets see calling people , the killers as murderers is classifying them isn't it.
Is that a good enough reason Br.
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Peace siki,
You had two different threads about the same subject in two different categories which have now been merged.
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Peace simple. I appreciate certain relative classifications,yes,but not absolute,unrealistic ones...
There are accidental manslaughters too,are these murders too?... Also shouldnt we have VERY,VERY realistic good evidence before we classify someone as a murderer? If a person commits a murder when he was 19,and then repents and turns his life around,is he still a murderer? There are ways of dealing with murderers,criminals,etc...But too go around calling them 'murderers,criminals etc...Is not always the most productive approach...better to imprison,educate and try to rehabilitate them....Yes/no?
peace... group Ps;dont think im soft on crime...I have three boisterous sisters... elektro -
Salaamun alaikum Siki and everyone,
Reading your post, your notion of shirik seems to be like putting statuettes on the altar, sorry if im wrong.
Shirik, in the Quranic sense is in matters of hukm or legislation (whether legal or metaphysical) like in 18/26 which tells us 'laa YUSHRIKU fi hukmihi ahada' (he does not ASSOCIATE anyone in his hukm).
4/48 tells us
God ghafrs not that partners should be set up with Him; but He ghafrs anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with God is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed
What is to 'ghafr' which you translate as 'forgive' ? I am against 'forgive' because 'afaa' in Quranic vocab already points to that (like in 9/43). In Quranic language, 'ghafr' is used to denote antonymity to 'azab' or punish, suffering. Therefore, ghafr is the protection of this.
So the correct rendering of 4/48 is that Allah will no longer protect from harm or suffering anyone who associates his legislation. This includes committing crimes such as murder, mischief etc.
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Peace,
In my opinoin the issue of Shirk is unforgivable becuase we are dealing with the subject of
original sin(i.e. the idea that we are all here on Earth to redeem ourselves back in Gods favor, or risk the true punishment of Hell which was delays as part of Gods mercy).This is why in some vesres you will note a reference to a
previous exisitenceAnd your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselvesAm I not your Lord?They saidYes, we bear witness.Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.(7172) -
Peace,
In my opinoin the issue of Shirk is unforgivable becuase we are dealing with the subject of
original sin(i.e. the idea that we are all here on Earth to redeem ourselves back in Gods favor, or risk the true punishment of Hell which was delays as part of Gods mercy).This is why in some vesres you will note a reference to a
previous exisitenceAnd your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselvesAm I not your Lord?They saidYes, we bear witness.Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.(7172)salam all .
is it necessarily from a previous existence ? -
Peace,
is it necessarily from a previous existence ?
When reading the context of the vesre, I would say
yesit is.- And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves
Am I not your Lord?They saidYes, we bear witness.Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this. - Nor can you Say
It was our fathers who set up partners before and we were simply a progeny who came after them. Would You destroy us for what the innovators did?
The above happened clearly before we were born here on Earth, hence, a previous existence at least of the soul can be verified.
- And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves
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Dear all
Why does the creator insist upon shirk as the only unforgivable offence, if maintained till death? surely he is God almighty, the most powerful , far above the typical human egoistic attitudes. But this sounds like any man in power trying to prove his authority. If he plans judging the individual's performances fairly, he should not mind somebody thinking otherwise while he or she does correct things in this world, Buddies this assertion of God has puzzled me since long and I have not been able to make sense of it, but as he has stressed upon it so much, there has to be some thing very technical about it, which has nothing to do with this life, think about the phrase TILL DEATH.
Could somebody provide me the correct piece of jigsaw puzzle?
SikandarPeace mate
the answer is very simple, Allah only created us NOT TO BE MISHRIKOON, He would have been able easy to achive that but instead He gave us the freewill and put us in the driving seat instead of being compulsed to worship Him as many other creatures are (no freewill)
therefore whoever violate the main objective of creating us must be doomed, it makes great sense to me, I will show you later where Allah told us that He created us for that reaosn only, not to enjoy this testing life indeed
Salam
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Peace simple. I appreciate certain relative classifications,yes,but not absolute,unrealistic ones...
There are accidental manslaughters too,are these murders too?... Also shouldnt we have VERY,VERY realistic good evidence before we classify someone as a murderer? If a person commits a murder when he was 19,and then repents and turns his life around,is he still a murderer? There are ways of dealing with murderers,criminals,etc...But too go around calling them 'murderers,criminals etc...Is not always the most productive approach...better to imprison,educate and try to rehabilitate them....Yes/no?
peace... group Ps;dont think im soft on crime...I have three boisterous sisters... elektroBr according to my understanding of the quran and 95, if the people change they are forgiven and no longer classed as criminals/murders.There isn't a permanant label - its only while such actions last or the people don't change or arn't willing to change.
But saying that you don't wipe off their records of the past they will remain for ever but as a records.And they will suffer in the hereafter if they havn't repented as they should have.
God Blessings.
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Peace
118- And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ.
119- Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.
(11
(119)
Salam
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Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumu faoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohum waohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadinfa-in taboo wa aqamoo alssalatawaata woo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the shirkists wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Are we sure that aqamoo als salawaat is their establishingregular prayers?
It is true that they repent now but repent only being active agressors. However, they do not repent being unbelievers; they are still unbelievers and they still refuse to pray like believers.
So how come we expect unbelievers to establish regular prayers despite the fact that they still deny that regular prayers are worth establishing?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
peace
how would you like to raise a child and do everything for that child, and find out in the end them thanking his mother, who was never there for him/her? Idol-worship is unfair, and those who commit it (even out of ignorance) are hiding a disease in their hearts (unless they repent and reform). They are not devoting themselves to God. They are praising dead messengers who can't hear or see anything.
He cites for you herein an example from among yourselves Do you ever elevate your servants or subordinates to the level where they rival you, and to the point that you pay them as much allegiance as is being paid to you? We thus explain the revelations for people who understand.
Perfect example of how unfair idol worshp is.
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Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumu faoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohum waohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadinfa-in taboo wa aqamoo alssalatawaata woo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the shirkists wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Are we sure that aqamoo als salawaat is their establishingregular prayers?
It is true that they repent now but repent only being active agressors. However, they do not repent being unbelievers; they are still unbelievers and they still refuse to pray like believers.
So how come we expect unbelievers to establish regular prayers despite the fact that they still deny that regular prayers are worth establishing?
Peace,
Hasan AkcaySalaat isn't a prayer but comittments/advices/discussions for the betterment and mushriks arn't those who say God has a son in this case but they are Thalimeen/wrongdoers/oppressers .
But would love your opinion on Cristians and jews not being mushriks by label but if they do thalimeen acts only then are they mushriks-my above post.
Salaams.
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Peace simple. Agree with most of your reply to my post br... bravo yay
One question though...Is the hearafter just after we die,or is akhirah applied to any future time/consequences (including before death.)...? -
Peace,
Dear Siki, are you well again? I hope so. To me idol-worship is a sin as it is the greatest lie on earth. It is not that God is jaleous, but that you will form your deeds based on the idols, and so will live a real lie. This is the crime you commit to yourself. Shirk is denying reality. It is like saying you have ten arms, instead of two, because of this, you will never make full use of the two you have. All the laws of this creation are based on that there is only One God as authority, if you don't follow this truth, you cannot fully grasp all the truth's of this creation. It was like when people believed the earth is flat, all of their maps and inventions were based on this idea and so caused them to be 'stuck' because of this false-hood. They didn't make any progress. Only after they acknowledged the earth being round and not the center of the universe did the people make inventions and maps that worked and created progress. So shirk is based on living the truth for your own benefit as 'le illeh il Allah' is the biggest truth of this Reality. When you base your life and understanding on this, you will be on the road of progress.....
Read this little article on shirk which i agree with
MEANING OF 'SHIRK' CHANGED
'Shirk' is a comprehensive term. Idol worship is its
simplest form. In fact, people worship idols because
they think these got the power to changes their
destiny. However, it is an inferior thinking of man.
God has created man as superior being among many of
His creatures (1770). It is not proper for him to
submit to anyone who are either inferior to him (idols
or his lowly desires) or who are mortal beings like
him self (priest and rulers). Man should submit
himself to the authority of God alone. He is the
creator and He knows what the purpose of man's
creation is? (6714). Therefore, no one could think
better than God what is best for man. When Quran says;
" authority belongs to God..." (657) or when God
condemn 'Shirk' as the biggest and un-pardonable crime
(3113;44, it does not mean that God dislikes
deities and asserts Himself as a sovereign. He is far
above emotions and far above what we associate with
Him. If man associates hundreds of deities, it does
not affect God's sovereignty in the universe.
Secondly, He Himself has condemned compulsion in
'Al-Deen' (2256). So, how could He threat or force
human beings against their will, to follow a
particular path? Actually, these admonitions are meant
to inculcate the truth that man can accomplish his
goals by no other means except God's laws. He can
reach his destination by following God's path alone.
Therefore, the real 'shirk' is not the worship of
idols or deities but it is the following of paths
other than the one, which God has recommended. These
paths (in other words, various man-made systems)
misguide man and take him far away from his
destination (4116). Values and principles in man-made
systems are not enough to guide man in the right
direction. By following man-made systems, he cannot
emancipate from animal-instincts and lowly desires; He
cannot rise to become a noble and dignified human
being. It is possible only by following the value
system of the Quran (2885). It is stated in the
Quran"God wants to raise man to the exalted ranks of
humanity through the value system of the Quran. But,
man follows the earthly desires which eventually
brings him low to the position of beasts and worse."
(7176). This downfall is exclusively attributed to
'Shirk' in another verse, which reads as follow;"Hunafaa lillahe ghaira Mushrikeena beh - Being true
in faith to God, and never assigning partners to Him -
Wa manyushrik billahe - if anyone assigns partners to
God - Fa ka ann ma kharra minusamai - he is as if he
had fallen from heavens - Fa takhtafh-o-tairo au
tahvee behir reeho fi makanin saheeq - and been
snatched up by birds, or the wind had swooped and
thrown him into a far-distant place." (2231)God's given value system grooms human personality. It
imparts enlightenment, and excellence of taste through
intellectual and aesthetic training. It provides him
protection against the spontaneous forces of nature
and the society.Accordingly, we conclude that real 'Shirk' is to
follow values and principles, which are against the
Quran. The real 'Shirk' is to follow the systems,
which are based on non-Quranic values and principles.
Quran has emphatically stated"La yushrik fi hukmehee ahada - God does not share His
Command (values & principles) with anyone whatsoever".
(1826)This definition of 'Shirk' is much more important and
practically related with the welfare of the society.
If understood rightly and taken care of, it would have
liberated the masses from the evil's systems, which
exploit national resources and man's labor to
safeguard the interests of privileged classes against
the common man's interests. The masses would have
never submitted to such systems because submission to
these man-made systems is no less a big crime than
'Shirk'. But the religious scholars did not pay due
attention on this concept and laid undeserved emphasis
in condemning idol's worship as a form of 'Shirk'.
They diverted the focus of attention of the people
from a dangerous and fatal form of 'Shirk' towards a
simple and harmless form of 'Shirk'. Consequently, as
earlier said, the Muslim masses can tolerate and bow
their heads before any evil ruler no matter how much
his rule is against the rule of God's Will; they can
live in any man-made system no matter how much its
values and principles are degraded and against the
noble values of the glorious Quran, but they would
never tolerate bowing before an idol. They hated
idol's worship like they hate pigs whereas idols has
no power either to harm or to benefit them. The
religion's opium has worked rightly on them. They
forgot their primary obligations to strive hard
against ignorance, poverty, and undemocratic values.
They never realized that idols of human desires are
worst than stone's idols. These noble ideas never
touched them but they dream to be known as
'Butshikan'. They have become the true embodiment of
what the Quran said in this verse"And most of them believe not in God without
associating (others as partners) with Him". (12106)MEANING OF 'IBADAH' CHANGED
When 'illah' came to be misinterpreted; "The one who
is worshiped", instead of, "The one who is the ruler",
and 'Shirk' came to be misinterpreted; "To associate
idols in the worship of God", instead of, "To
associate others in the rule of God" then, naturally,
the meaning of 'ibadah' has to be misinterpreted; "The
worship of God", instead of, "The rule of God". This
change in the meanings of words along with the
introduction of other non-Quranic concepts such as
'The concept of recitation' and 'The concept of five
pillars' had played a key role in the transformation
of 'Al-Deen' into religion.The Quran has given a very clear concept of 'ibadah'.
It simply means "obedience to God's command". In
verse (18110) it says; "wa la yushrik be-ibadateh
rabbehe ahada - nor does he associate anyone in
'ibadah' of his God. And in verse (1826) it says; "wa
la yushrik fi hukmehe ahada"- nor does He share His
Command with any person whatsoever". These verses have
clearly defined the relation between 'hukm' and
'ibadah' and left no room for confusing 'ibadah' with
worship. Neither God wants to share His Command with
anyone nor His Messenger like to obey anyone except
God.The concept of worship (Ibadah) is alien to 'Al-Deen'.
It is a creation of religion. 'Al-Deen' is a
goal-oriented system, which follows certain rules and
principles. It is not a dogma but a guide to practice.
Whatever, it claims or promises for the welfare of
people that is concrete and achievable in this world.
On the contrary, religion consists of beliefs and
dogmas based on wistful thinking of those people who
fail to establish God's Authority against the
authority of oppressive forces in the society. While
the followers of 'Al-Deen' sacrifice their persons and
goods to win the blessings and the pleasure of God
(9111) the religious folks have nothing to please Him
in this world except to offer their praises and
prayers (worship).We may not know when? And where? The transformation of
'Al-Deen' into religion took place because social and
cultural changes are evolutionary in nature and
difficult to monitor. These are, like a clock's hour
needle, remain in motion invisibly for a long period
of time before they become mature and attain
perfection. However, in the light of above discussion,
we are certain that Islam is no more 'al-Deen'.
Although, we call it 'Al-Deen' but everywhere it is
practiced as religion.A religion cannot prove its truthfulness nor it can
prove its superiority over other religions. Firstly,
all religions are based on fear and ignorance.
Secondly, they do not have concern with the management
of worldly affairs such as politics and economy. The
primary subject of religion is spirituality. In this
regard, in order to see which one is true and
superior, one has to wait till doomsday. On the
contrary, a system has to prove its worth in this
world. It is based on well-defined principles and
policies. Its results and achievements are concrete
and comparable. For example, when a system promises
social justice it has to deliver it. Islam as a system
had remained very successful. Islamic state was the
embodiment of peace and justice. It had delivered all
the goods to its people. But when Islam reduced to
religion it became a pandemonium of chaos, confusion,
and contradictions. It failed badly to deliver what it
claimed. This situation persisted till now and will
continue to persist till Islam is redefined as a
system.We have pointed out earlier that there are many
contradictions found in Islam. Muslims believe in
unity but they are the most disunited folks in the
world. They believe in fraternity but they are not
fraternal to each other. They believe in peace but
known to others as terrorists. They believe in human
equality and dignity but these noble values are
nowhere found in Muslims' societies. These and many
other contradictions are found in Islam because it is
not practiced as a values system. What the Muslims are
practicing in the name of Islam that is purely a
religion consisting mostly of biblical dogmas and
Zoroastrian junk. It has very little, if any,
teachings from the Quran or the life of the Prophet
(pbuh). Therefore, when we talk about the failure of
Islam, in fact, we talk about the failure of Islam as
a religion.Dear Readers; this is just a brief review of a Great
Tragedy. A tragedy which turned a system of great
values and principles into dust of religious dogmas
and rituals. This unwanted transformation brought in
its fold many drastic consequences to the Muslims
world. The most prominent was the curse of
factionalism and sectarianism. Al-Deen-al-Islam, which
during the first half-century of its foundation, have
worked as a coherent and dominant system on the map of
the world got divided into secular Islam and religious
Islam. This division never stopped. The secular Islam
got further divided into various political and
cultural factions and the religious Islam got divided
into various religious sects such as sunni, and shia.
Clash of Interests, which is an essential outcome of
sectarianism, took them into its bloody grip and the
scourge of mutual vengeance became their destiny.
(665)To sum up, I would say that if the Muslims want to
redeem the past glory of Islam; if they want to see
Islam triumphant in the world; if they want to enjoy a
self-satisfied life under Islam then they have to
redefine Islam as a system. For, it is the system,
which can deliver these good to them - not religion.Wa ma 'alaina illal balagh
