why is shirk an unforgivable offence decreed by the creator?

unknownuser

Peace

To add to sister Taj comment on why the believers have no problem comprehending why Allah will not forgive Shirk, simply it relates to the solid knoweldge of Allah that those believers posses, one of these knoweldges the believers know about Allah is simply , ALLAH DOES WHAT HE WANTS

Verily Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds, to Gardens, beneath which rivers flow for Allah carries out all that He wants.

(14)

Therefore those true believers can't not question the morality of His desire to not to forgive those who shirk because simply this is WHAT HE WANTS and HE WILL DO WHAT HE WANTS

Salam

TAJ

Peace Ahmed, All,

one of these knoweldges the believers know about Allah is simply , ALLAH DOES WHAT HE WANTS

That statement does not fit here. I will explain why. Allah does what he wants, of course, and giving us, humans, the brains and the freedom of choice is part of what Allah wants.

We do what we want because Allah gave us that right. Allah wants humans to think and to understand and to believe in HIM and trust Him fully based on that freedom and logic and knowledge and not to believe based on blind faith. That is why the Quran calls for contemplating and studying the Ayat in the horizons and in our own creation.

Allah's punishment is not a VITO thing. VITO and doing what you do because you want to do it, is equal to dictatorship.

Allah does not want us to do things based on "Allah wants so". 3ibadah based on brainwashing is not a 3ibadah. Only a dictator like Fir3oun would demand such an act from his people..
Fir3oun (Pharaoh) would do what he wants "because simply this is WHAT HE WANTS and HE WILL DO WHAT HE WANTS".

"O my People! Yours is the dominion this day Ye have the upper hand in the land but who will help us from the Punishment of God, should it befall us? " Pharaoh said "I but point out to you that which I see (myself); Nor do I guide you but to the Path of Right!"

Allah wants people to be aware of their good deeds as well as their sins and how much it will cost them and why, so that they will not have the hujja/argument/excuse to argue with Allah in JD. They will still argue nevertheless!

Because Allah is Just, each of us will have his/her chance to defend their acts, and guess what we will end up agreeing to our punishment. Our punishment will be clear and just to us with our own admission! Mushriks will know and will agree to be deserving of their punishment. No one then will dare say "Oh but God, You are unjust! Why are You using the VITO against us poor helpless humans!? Why are You doing what You are doing just because You want to do it?" No one will dare say that because sinned ones will know and it will be clear to them that they are deserving of their penalty. All is clear then and is clear from this Dunyah already. One has only to think and realize their actions, the reasons and the consequence of their actions.
In JD, we will be given the chance to be our own judge, and our judgment to our own actions will be all just!
(14
(And it will be said unto him) Read thy Book. Thy soul sufficeth as reckoner against thee this day

Can their be more justice than that? Mushriks should prepare their own arguments because they will need it in front of Allah in JD. And be sure that they will end up throwing themselves in Hell with their own admission. They will see that their "gods" will disown them and there will be no gates open except those of Hell. After all, that was their own choice!

Therefore those true believers can't not question the morality of His desire to not to forgive those who shirk because simply this is WHAT HE WANTS and HE WILL DO WHAT HE WANTS

Now, after all this being said, why Allah desire not to forgive the mushriks, is yes, because Allah wants so but why? The answer is something of Ghayb, but be sure that it is all just.

Wa Ssalam..

unknownuser

Peace simple. Agree with most of your reply to my post br... bravo yay
One question though...Is the hearafter just after we die,or is akhirah applied to any future time/consequences (including before death.)...?

Well i do hope for a hereafter , but of course it does definately apply to the future time Br.

God Bless.

unknownuser

And what an article Arnold - very admirable.

God Bless.

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

Peace sister

one of these knoweldges the believers know about Allah is simply , ALLAH DOES WHAT HE WANTS

That statement does not fit here. I will explain why.

sure

Allah does what he wants, of course,

Exactly, that is what the verse said and what I said, I NEVER ADDED A WORD, it is as boldly as you can get, HE DOES WHAT HE WANTS, when He does and what He wants is the not the issue here, the issue is HE DOES WHAT HE WANTS

and giving us, humans, the brains and the freedom of choice is part of what Allah wants.

fine with me, exactly as not forgiving the mushrikoon, He does what He wants

We do what we want because Allah gave us that right.

Not sure if it is called right rather it is called freewill, we have no rights on our God, whatever He wants to do with us He can with ease, He does what He wants

Allah wants humans to think and to understand and to believe in HIM and trust Him fully based on that freedom and logic and knowledge and not to believe based on blind faith.

Fine with me but that is also covered under He does what He wants

That is why the Quran calls for contemplating and studying the Ayat in the horizons and in our own creation.

What Ayat exactly?, the araiv word can mean more than one thing

Allah's punishment is not a VITO thing.

Did I say that?, well, if doing what you want is called VITO? I donlt no, VITO sounds like objection to me

VITO and doing what you do because you want to do it, is equal to dictatorship.

Wow sister, you need to explain the following then

106- So as to those who are unhappy, they shall be in the fire; for them shall be sighing and groaning in it

107- Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.

108- And as to those who are made happy, they shall be in the garden, abiding in it as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; a gift which shall never be cut off.

(106)
(107)
(10

-> Verse 106 is telling us about those who will be the hell dwellers ? So as to those who are unhappy, they shall be in the fire; for them shall be sighing and groaning in it?

-> Verse 107 is telling us the those unhappy ones ? Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please?, see, they will abide in hell except as Allah desires, then the verse ended with the same thing, Allah does what He wants ? surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends?

-> Even those who will enter the garden and be happy will abide therein unless Allah desires to take them out as we read in 108? as to those who are made happy, they shall be in the garden, abiding in it as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please?

The bottom line as the verses are telling us Allah does what He wants even if it makes no sense to us because He told us the in both cases of the hell and garden dwellers that they will abide therein unless He desires not

Allah does not want us to do things based on "Allah wants so".

You are the one who saying that not me, I never suggested that, ALL I SAID< ALLAH DOES WHAT HE WANTS AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE QURAN TOLD US< PLEASE SISTER DONLT TWIST MY WORDS

3ibadah based on brainwashing is not a 3ibadah. Only a dictator like Fir3oun would demand such an act from his people..
Fir3oun (Pharaoh) would do what he wants "because simply this is WHAT HE WANTS and HE WILL DO WHAT HE WANTS".

"O my People! Yours is the dominion this day Ye have the upper hand in the land but who will help us from the Punishment of God, should it befall us? " Pharaoh said "I but point out to you that which I see (myself); Nor do I guide you but to the Path of Right!"

not relevant really, but thanks anyway

Allah wants people to be aware of their good deeds as well as their sins and how much it will cost them and why, so that they will not have the hujja/argument/excuse to argue with Allah in JD.

Any quran verses to support your statement, I;m not saying it is wrong, but I always like Quran statement when people talk about Allah, cheers

They will still argue nevertheless!

sure

Because Allah is Just, each of us will have his/her chance to defend their acts,

Not sure is this will be granted to everyone, I?m sure that many will not be able to say a word on the JD as the Quran told us, in fact everyone will have a ?Saiq and Shahid? and Saiq means ?driver? i.e. we will be driven like cars and we will have no control as we will not be the drivers then

and guess what we will end up agreeing to our punishment.

I agree on that, but the question by the poster is not agreeing on it on the JD, I believe he wants to understand it in this life

Our punishment will be clear and just to us with our own admission! Mushriks will know and will agree to be deserving of their punishment.

I agree

No one then will dare say "Oh but God, You are unjust! Why are You using the VITO against us poor helpless humans!?

Not sure if the word VITO applies here, as well you said they will be given a chance to defend themselves so saying as such is a sort of defence and yet you say no one will dare to say it, unless you mean some other defences?

Why are You doing what You are doing just because You want to do it?" No one will dare say that because sinned ones will know and it will be clear to them that they are deserving of their penalty.

No defence will be required then, the matter is very well settled, why you suggested that they will be given a chance to defend themselves then?

All is clear then and is clear from this Dunyah already. One has only to think and realize their actions, the reasons and the consequence of their actions.
In JD, we will be given the chance to be our own judge, and our judgment to our own actions will be all just!
(14
(And it will be said unto him) Read thy Book. Thy soul sufficeth as reckoner against thee this day

so being a judge means that we will have no chance to defend ourselves because we will convict ourselves, right?

Can their be more justice than that? Mushriks should prepare their own arguments because they will need it in front of Allah in JD.

What argument exactly if they will not dare to say anything?

And be sure that they will end up throwing themselves in Hell with their own admission. They will see that their "gods" will disown them and there will be no gates open except those of Hell. After all, that was their own choice!

Great, that is what I think as well

Therefore those true believers can't not question the morality of His desire to not to forgive those who shirk because simply this is WHAT HE WANTS and HE WILL DO WHAT HE WANTS

Now, after all this being said, why Allah desire not to forgive the mushriks, is yes, because Allah wants so but why? The answer is something of Ghayb, but be sure that it is all just.

Great, I never tried to crack that Ghayb regarding Allah will and all I said ?He does what He wants? I never suggested why and when "I used what He said about Himself" to others but it seems you did from all the above comment, thank you sister

cheers

siki

AHMAD QUOTED.

Verse 106 is telling us about those who will be the hell dwellers ? So as to those who are unhappy, they shall be in the fire; for them shall be sighing and groaning in it?

-> Verse 107 is telling us the those unhappy ones ? Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please?, see, they will abide in hell except as Allah desires, then the verse ended with the same thing, Allah does what He wants ? surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends?

-> Even those who will enter the garden and be happy will abide therein unless Allah desires to take them out as we read in 108? as to those who are made happy, they shall be in the garden, abiding in it as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please?

The bottom line as the verses are telling us Allah does what He wants even if it makes no sense to us because He told us the in both cases of the hell and garden dwellers that they will abide therein unless He desires not

Ahmad ,, very intresting indeed.....i also think so ...
what is a jinn? ,,,,,a fallen angel . i suppose
and what is an angel? ,,,, probably a passed program from the previous ACADEMY

let us try and think about question now....remember he says TILL DEATH.

SO LOOKS LIKE THERE IS NO ETERNAL PARADISE. if we do well , we may move on to a better place ,but then we shall have to continue proving our worth to stay on
Ahmad , thanks for providing the missing piece for another glitch in my mind
peace sikandar

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Dear Siki, our dear AB forgot to post this important part

Those who are blessed will be in Paradise, where they will dwell so long as heaven and earth survive, unless your Lord wills otherwise This will be a gift uninterrupted.

So, it does go on, only how is for us to find out.......

unknownuser

Peace,

Dear Siki, our dear AB forgot to post this important part

Those who are blessed will be in Paradise, where they will dwell so long as heaven and earth survive, unless your Lord wills otherwise This will be a gift uninterrupted.

So, it does go on, only how is for us to find out.......

Peace bro

are you sure I forgot?

in fact I posted all 11108 in my comment, in my walk through I didn't, can you please chaeck again

also I'm not saying that Allah said He will take them out of paradise, what I said that Allah said the garden dwellers will dwell there unless Allah will otherwise,

my comment was not about He will or He will not, it was about Him saying He does what he wants and we "the creatures" can't question His desires

peace

arnoldyasin

excuse me, i only read what siki posted, i thought he copied it all.......

And i agree with your above comment.

Peace

unknownuser

AHMAD QUOTED.

Verse 106 is telling us about those who will be the hell dwellers ? So as to those who are unhappy, they shall be in the fire; for them shall be sighing and groaning in it?

-> Verse 107 is telling us the those unhappy ones ? Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please?, see, they will abide in hell except as Allah desires, then the verse ended with the same thing, Allah does what He wants ? surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends?

-> Even those who will enter the garden and be happy will abide therein unless Allah desires to take them out as we read in 108? as to those who are made happy, they shall be in the garden, abiding in it as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please?

The bottom line as the verses are telling us Allah does what He wants even if it makes no sense to us because He told us the in both cases of the hell and garden dwellers that they will abide therein unless He desires not

Ahmad ,, very intresting indeed.....i also think so ...

Peace bro

It is indeed interesting to know the God Who is dealing with us and the verses clearly state that He does what He wants

what is a jinn? ,,,,,a fallen angel . i suppose

this was discussed numerous times on here man, try to search and find and see for yourself what you will feel comfortable with, for me and according to the Quran the Jinns are

Another creature created from fire by Allah
Satan is one of them and somehow he was up there ?where Adam was? when Adam was created
Satan is the leader of them and his wish was granted to stay alive till the judgment day to prove to Allah that the humans didn?t deserve to be prostrated to by him
Satan and his progeny ?not all of them? will do their best to flaw the humans
The jinns have also freewill like the humans ?I?m only aware of these two creatures to have freewill?
The jinn are required to worship Allah exactly like the humans are required, both were created for that reason only
The jinn have superior power and abilities compared to the humans
The jinns can see the humans but the humans can?t see them, but some humans can succeed in communicating with the jinns, but if they do succeed then the jinns will make their life even harder

That is as far as I can remember from the Quran, they are two far from being fallen angels, because Allah has praised all the angels in His quran and told us clearly that Iblis was one from the Jinns

and what is an angel? ,,,, probably a passed program from the previous ACADEMY

well, we can only find answers in the Quran, the angels were described many times in the Quran and here is what I can remember

They are too many
Their leader is Gebril ?The Arch Angel?
They have wings
They have awesome power and abilities that are superior to the Jinns
They have no free will and they do what Allah orders them
They have no knowledge and they know what Allah told them
They act like the army of Allah, in fact they were described as such in the Quran ?Junud?
A few names from them are ?Gebril, Israfil, Michael and Malik?

And that is what I can remember, and that is what I really need to know in this test

let us try and think about question now....remember he says TILL DEATH.

SO LOOKS LIKE THERE IS NO ETERNAL PARADISE.

No, sure there is eternal paradise As Allah told us because the verse I posted 11108 is only talking about an exception of those dwellers ?NOT ALL OF THEM?

if we do well , we may move on to a better place ,but then we shall have to continue proving our worth to stay on

only in this life, not the hereafter, 11107-108 as I believe are only to highlight the ultimate Mashiaah ?desire? that Allah have, but Allah does not break His promises for sure

Ahmad , thanks for providing the missing piece for another glitch in my mind
peace sikandar

To be honest bro, I don?t know what was the glitch so far, but I?m happy that I helped indirectly in resolving that glitch as long as you really understood my comment

Peace be with you mate

unknownuser

Peace All

I would like to add another comment

My comment that Allah can?t be questioned was not an emotional sort of one coming out of a sort of a believer rather it was what Allah told us about Himself, I have to warn my brothers and sisters NOT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ALLAH THAT HE NEVER SAID ABOUT HIMSELF, this is a great sin in the Quran and Allah has warned against it big times then called those who insist on saying assumptions about Allah, Liars, here is the verse where Allah told us that HE CAN?T BE QUESTIONED

YUSUFALI He cannot be questioned for His acts, but they will be questioned (for theirs).
PICKTHAL He will not be questioned as to that which He doeth, but they will be questioned.
SHAKIR He cannot be questioned concerning what He does and they shall be questioned.

(23)

-> Well, what can I say??..hmmmmmm

Let?s get ready to rumble

Salam all

gazzali

Peace All

WITH THE GUIDANCE FROM GOD, HERE IS MY HUMBLE REPLY

4/115

And whoever is hostile to the messenger after the guidance has been made clear to him, and he follows other than the path of the believers; We will grant him what he has sought and deliver him to Hell; what a miserable destination

4/116

God does not forgive to have partners set up with Him, but He forgives other than that for whom He pleases. Whoever sets-up partners with God has indeed strayed a far straying.

The conditions of going to Hell ( miserable destination) is clearly outlined

Hostile to the messenger
and Follows non believers

Setting up partners with God (the Most High) is like far straying. An example would be if earth strays away from its orbit the destination is clearly disastrous. In other words, God wants all of us to go to Heaven and its criteria is not to set up partners with God.

What is meant by setting up partners?

4/117
They are only calling on females beside God. Indeed, they are only calling on a persistent devil.

So the story is simple. If you have believed, do not call on any other things other than Allah

GOD IS MOST FORGIVING yay

3/86
How can God guide a people who have rejected after believing, and they witnessed that the messenger is true, and the clarity had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people.

3/87
To these the punishment will be that God's curse will be upon them as well as that of the Angels and the people all together!

3/88
Eternally they will abide in it, the retribution will not be lightened for them, nor will they be reprieved.

3/89
Except those who repent after this and make amends, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.

Gazzali
sun

alpha97

Peace,

On this subject from Inayat khan

So long as a man has a longing to obtain any particular object, he cannot go further than that object.

As a man's ideal is, so is his state of evolution. The man who is only interested in himself is very narrow and limited, whereas the man who has expanded his interests to his family and surroundings is greater; while he who expands

them still further to his nation is yet greater, and he who extends them to the world at large is the greatest. But in all these cases a man is limited. ... The highest ideal of man is to realize the unlimited, the immortal Self within.

There is no need for any higher ideal, for when man holds this ideal in his vision, he expands and becomes all he wants to be, and in time he attains to that peace which is the longing of every soul.There is a constant desire of

the soul to find its own nature. Until it finds it, it is always looking for something, though what it does not know. Is it not true of every individual in this world that, whatever may be his desire, as long as he has not attained it he is

unhappy, and eager and anxious to achieve it? He is longing and suffering and doing all he can to attain it; but
when he has succeeded, he does not feel happy. At once a new desire arises; if he has a thousand he wants a

million; if he has done one duty there is another, and after that another. So it is with love affairs; so it is with paradise. He will never feel contented and satisfied, because fundamentally it is not the desire that he is really

concerned with. Though he crosses the boundary wall of the desire he finds himself again with a new desire. And this itself proves the fact that there is really only one fundamental desire underlying all others the desire for

spiritual perfection. ...Motive limits one to certain kinds of accomplishment; and it does not allow one to accomplish anything beyond the scope of that particular motive. As long as a person has the desire to attain to something

with a particular motive, he cannot go further. That is why the sages have said, 'Rise above the earthly motives. Accomplish all you wish to accomplish in life, whatever be the motive, and then that itself will lead you to a stage from which you can rise above them, and above the earthly desires of the body'.

peace,

prashant_kumar

Sheerk is putting an ?intermediary? entity between the Lord of the worlds and the person. Such ?intermediary? is from the Lord?s creation. A Mushreek himself lowers his dignity and puts himself to an inferior position by giving up the dignity approved by his Lord. While his Lord created the universe for him, while the angels are created for the service of him, while his Omnipotent Lord, who created this huge universe and all the microscopic worlds, is ready to hear and reply to his call, while his Lord is the most near One to him, he instead subjugates himself to poor creatures of his Lord. Moreover, sheerk is the gross and supreme form of ingratitude. Man?s consciousness is such that when the degradation and the ingratitude shall become manifest to him, he himself shall find his face stained with ashes.

In other word, a Mushreek wants reward from or through an entity who is incapable. So he himself can not, by his own choice, expect Allah to have mercy on him. On the other hand, a monotheist asks mercy/forgiveness to One who is capable of providing it. So logically he may expect what he wants.

The final answer is that, we can not impose our desire or standard on the Omnipotent and unquestionably sovreign Allah who is Wise and Just too.