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  2. Critical Examination of Islam
  3. Quranic Divinity
  4. Any examples of 'quran only' states from history.....?

Any examples of 'quran only' states from history.....?

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Quranic Divinity
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  • S Offline
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    savage_carrot
    wrote on last edited by
    #41

    No you haven't if you read carefully but that's alright.

    Ps I know that you know full well what I mean but there you go on your random tangents again...or maybe that's where you wanted it to go anyway. Thanks for your time.

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    • M Offline
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      mquran
      wrote on last edited by
      #42

      EnquirerPeace Sc. I have answered your post with the 'principles' i listed,...which seem not to be universally found in the quran... (except for divergent,rare interpretations.)....I personally think you know full well what my post means,if you dont,read it again,and ask for clarification...

      Lol, so a 'life for a life' and 'if you take a life, you've taken the whole humanity' is a DIVERGENT and RARE interpretation? What's the common interpretation for it?

      Peace. ps; do you believe in full equal rights for all people regardless of beliefs and religion...?

      After 25 years, you still have to ask a Quranic believer this?

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      • S Offline
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        savage_carrot
        wrote on last edited by
        #43

        After 25 years, you still have to ask a Quranic believer this?
        Strange isn't it?!? Why would one need to ask this?

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          unknownuser
          wrote on last edited by
          #44

          Peace simple. Could you elaborate a little on that please,and maybe give an example of a universal principle from outside the quran please...?

          The quran has only limited enforcement policies, and the level of enforcement prevailing the advanced nation is extra quranic.

          Where is the law to enforce people not to change the will, or rather where is the punishment for this?

          There is a voluntary fasting of three days ? and that is voluntary, it?s not forced neither, in the advanced nations the punishment would be a number of days in prison, this stops us chatting and makes us think on our own (like talking fasts) or a fine or punishment differed if the plaintiff is sick or doesn?t have the means.

          So the enforced punishment is another principle ?not in the quran for this and many other crimes.

          Fagan baddalahu baAAda ma samiAAahufa-innama ithmuhu AAala allatheenayubaddiloonahu inna Allaha sameeAAun AAaleemun

          If anyone changes the bequest after hearing it, the guilt shall be on those who make the change. For Allah hears and knows (All things).
          182.
          Faman khafa min moosinjanafan aw ithman faaslaha baynahum falaithma AAalayhi inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun

          But if anyone fears partiality or wrong-doing on the part of the testator, and makes peace between (The parties concerned), there is no wrong in him For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
          183.
          Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookutiba AAalaykumu alssiyamu kamakutiba AAala allatheena min qablikum laAAallakumtattaqoona

          O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint,-

          Again calling people names or making fun of them is against the law you will be punished, however this isn?t in the quran , in the quran it is advised only.
          Do NOT make fun of others, or call them names
          "O you who believe, no people shall ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. Anyone who does not repent after this, these are the transgressors." (4911)

          Do NOT be 'Racist'
          "O people, We created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant." (4913)

          Although the principle of enforcement exists in the quran its application is limited in the quran to say killings, adultery, and theft e.t.c

          Another case looking after the poor is again voluntary but in certain nation its haram to let suffering exist so its voluntary to have the safeguards for looking after the poor ,young , old , sick , unemployed e.t.c

          The quran has rules regulations for the 1400 years ago and some still applicable today but many of these need improving but not all of them.

          God Bless.

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            mquran
            wrote on last edited by
            #45

            Simple, I hope you don't mind me interjecting.

            SimpleThe quran has only limited enforcement policies, and the level of enforcement prevailing the advanced nation is extra quranic.

            And how do you know the 'extra quranic' level of enforcement for 'the advanced nation' belongs to the category of 'universal principle'. What if its not universal but belongs only to the particular nation?

            Where is the law to enforce people not to change the will, or rather where is the punishment for this?

            Maybe there isn't one and maybe you're trying to project one despite that fact?

            There is a voluntary fasting of three days ? and that is voluntary, it?s not forced neither, in the advanced nations the punishment would be a number of days in prison, this stops us chatting and makes us think on our own (like talking fasts) or a fine or punishment differed if the plaintiff is sick or doesn?t have the means.

            Is it possible that Allah didn't prescribe a legal punishment at all? Allah says as-siyaam is so that you have be in taqwa. So if you don't siyaam, you won't have the taqwa afforded to you if you did.

            Although the principle of enforcement exists in the quran its application is limited in the quran to say killings, adultery, and theft e.t.c

            Yes, for all the things affecting OTHER people. If you don't fast, that's not my business but if you go around killing people, then that's no longer your personal space, is it?

            Another case looking after the poor is again voluntary but in certain nation its haram to let suffering exist so its voluntary to have the safeguards for looking after the poor ,young , old , sick , unemployed e.t.c

            So Allah didn't make it compulsory, i.e. something to be forced but you're making it so?

            The quran has rules regulations for the 1400 years ago and some still applicable today but many of these need improving but not all of them.

            Please tell us
            a. what needs 'improving'.
            b. by what measure , what is your yardstick that it will be 'improved'.

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              unknownuser
              wrote on last edited by
              #46

              Simple, I hope you don't mind me interjecting.

              SimpleThe quran has only limited enforcement policies, and the level of enforcement prevailing the advanced nation is extra quranic.

              And how do you know the 'extra quranic' level of enforcement for 'the advanced nation' belongs to the category of 'universal principle'. What if its not universal but belongs only to the particular nation?

              Where is the law to enforce people not to change the will, or rather where is the punishment for this?

              Maybe there isn't one and maybe you're trying to project one despite that fact?

              There is a voluntary fasting of three days ? and that is voluntary, it?s not forced neither, in the advanced nations the punishment would be a number of days in prison, this stops us chatting and makes us think on our own (like talking fasts) or a fine or punishment differed if the plaintiff is sick or doesn?t have the means.

              Is it possible that Allah didn't prescribe a legal punishment at all? Allah says as-siyaam is so that you have be in taqwa. So if you don't siyaam, you won't have the taqwa afforded to you if you did.

              Although the principle of enforcement exists in the quran its application is limited in the quran to say killings, adultery, and theft e.t.c

              Yes, for all the things affecting OTHER people. If you don't fast, that's not my business but if you go around killing people, then that's no longer your personal space, is it?

              Another case looking after the poor is again voluntary but in certain nation its haram to let suffering exist so its voluntary to have the safeguards for looking after the poor ,young , old , sick , unemployed e.t.c

              So Allah didn't make it compulsory, i.e. something to be forced but you're making it so?

              The quran has rules regulations for the 1400 years ago and some still applicable today but many of these need improving but not all of them.

              Please tell us
              a. what needs 'improving'.
              b. by what measure , what is your yardstick that it will be 'improved'.

              punishment for changing the will - , where are you based , its in all the advanced countries to my knowledge.

              And the laws to prevent people suffering and going naked are good don't you think? to me these laws are from
              God .

              again i don't take my laws as idols i believe they may be changed according to people needs through salaat/counsel.

              most of the laws in the quran need to be upgraded as most of them are voluntary , and the advanced nations have shown -it doesn't work as well as enforced laws and that is the reason all countries have started to adopt the enforcement stratagies.

              Salaams.

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                unknownuser
                wrote on last edited by
                #47

                Peace simple. A magnificent couple of posts... bravo You are the kind of reformer/thinker that islam needs...keep up the good work,dont be put off by awkward questions...
                Note how christianity and judaism have gone through their reformation and renaissanse, and came up with the 'successful' systems of 'secular humanism',democracy and,universal human rights combined with economic prosperity...(although i admit there are still issues and problems to be addressed and refined in these systems.) Most muslims in the world want to come to these western democracies to escape poverty and lack of liberty,and bring up families in a relatively 'peaceful' atmosphere with more opportunities...

                Mquran; parts of your post seem to be encouraging secularism,or the division of personal aspects of religion as against public consequences...
                Sc; you are telling me that universal human rights are guaranteed by the quran regardless if those humans are classified as kafirs or mushriks and dirty/destined for hell by the very same book.....? Good luck with that interpretation...

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                  savage_carrot
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #48

                  Sc; you are telling me that universal human rights are guaranteed by the quran regardless if those humans are classified as kafirs or mushriks and dirty/destined for hell by the very same book.....? Good luck with that interpretation...

                  Can you quote the problematic verses in a new thread with your conclusions? Thanks.

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                    Navid
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #49

                    Openmind;I dont believe the quran is 100% truth,although i believe it contains some truths.

                    Well, that's not what I asked. I asked if you believe it to be all from God? Or none of it? Or some of it? If some of it; out of curiosity, how do you figure? Do you pick and choose which parts you like? Or.. do you actually have evidence?

                    Peace.

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                      mquran
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #50

                      Simple punishment for changing the will - , where are you based , its in all the advanced countries to my knowledge.

                      My question was How do you reckon the punishing of a person for changing the will is a UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLE?

                      Just because 'advanced countries' do it?

                      And the laws to prevent people suffering and going naked are good don't you think? to me these laws are from
                      God .

                      To me, the only laws from Allah are in al-quraan. In al-quraan, there's an explicit command to fight against zulm or oppression. So by al-quraan, fighting against suffering is a good thing.

                      again i don't take my laws as idols i believe they may be changed according to people needs through salaat/counsel.

                      As long as they don't go over al-quraan, sure. Punishing people for not doing as-siyaam is wrong.

                      Will you kill people who leave Islam? Why or why not?

                      most of the laws in the quran need to be upgraded as most of them are voluntary , and the advanced nations have shown -it doesn't work as well as enforced laws and that is the reason all countries have started to adopt the enforcement stratagies.

                      Ah I see. So that's why we have people who pay taxes because they HAVE to rather than from the desire that their money will help the less fortunate. Instead of having a society filled with imaan, we have a society like an animal, forced to follow the whip. I'd rather have a believing society any day.

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                        mquran
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #51

                        Enquirer Mquran; parts of your post seem to be encouraging secularism,or the division of personal aspects of religion as against public consequences...

                        Enquirer, do me a favour. You know the book you studied for 25 years. Can you read aloud the title for me. Does it say 'q-u-r-a-n' at all ? Sorry to ask but sometimes I wonder what you've been reading. Al-quraan has never been sectarian in its jurisdiction whatsoever. The fact that you think shows a poor quality of research.

                        As predicted, you respond to me when what I say suits your fancy.

                        Sc; you are telling me that universal human rights are guaranteed by the quran regardless if those humans are classified as kafirs or mushriks and dirty/destined for hell by the very same book.....? Good luck with that interpretation...

                        What interpretation? Do you even know the basis of her thinking? The actual ayaat? Imaan gurantees ones fate in the afterlife. In this life, if one is in salaam, everyone is treated equally. The reason you find this so preposterous is just that you've never read it before, simple as that.

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                          mquran
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #52

                          Enquirer Note how christianity and judaism have gone through their reformation and renaissanse, and came up with the 'successful' systems of 'secular humanism',democracy and,universal human rights combined with economic prosperity...(

                          Wow, so this is how you measure success. By the number of heads which rolled because that's how the modern secular state began Through the French Revolution.

                          Snap out of your delusions, pal. Slogans doesn't make the world go round.

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                            mquran
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #53

                            OpenMindWell, that's not what I asked. I asked if you believe it to be all from God? Or none of it? Or some of it? If some of it; out of curiosity, how do you figure? Do you pick and choose which parts you like? Or.. do you actually have evidence?

                            Its based on the BETS principle.

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                              unknownuser
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #54

                              Peace mquran. oh,so you believe in history now that you think it works in your favour to discredit modern 'secularism'....How very appropriate... bravo
                              Your emotions/ideological attatchments are heavily overshadowing your intellect/concept of reality pal...And you trying to discredit a system doesnt mean anything...You think you and your quranic system will stop secularism....Good luck with that... I think i just saw a flying pig... rotfl

                              Peace Openmind;I try to ascertain which parts are true by verification (doesnt 1736 say the same thing as that?)....As for god,well you define god,and i will tell you if the quran comes from your definition of who/what god is...

                              Peace Sc;How ironic,you are asking me to start a thread...? Im flattered....I will start it tommorow....

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                                CavemanDoctor
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #55

                                Peace Sc;How ironic,you are asking me to start a thread...? Im flattered....I will start it tommorow.... )

                                Just wondering though, are you going to duck and run again when you can't respond to someone's counterargument?

                                I'm still waiting on your response to my argument in the "modern technology" thread.

                                Peace.

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                                  Navid
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #56

                                  OpenMindWell, that's not what I asked. I asked if you believe it to be all from God? Or none of it? Or some of it? If some of it; out of curiosity, how do you figure? Do you pick and choose which parts you like? Or.. do you actually have evidence?

                                  Its based on the BETS principle.

                                  Mhm. BETS is the key... After all "his guide is his conscience." How can he be wrong? His guide is whatever he likes.

                                  Peace.

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                                    savage_carrot
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #57

                                    Sc;How ironic,you are asking me to start a thread...? Im flattered....I will start it tommorow....
                                    I have asked you to do a lot of things but the real irony is, you pick and choose. If that's flattery, so be it. Good luck and remember to respond with evidence and detail or please don't start any threads, infact reply to the ones you ducked. Thanks.

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                                      Navid
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #58

                                      Peace Openmind;I try to ascertain which parts are true by verification (doesnt 1736 say the same thing as that?)....As for god,well you define god,and i will tell you if the quran comes from your definition of who/what god is...

                                      It's okay if you can't give me a straight answer.

                                      I'd love to hear your form of "ascertaining which parts are true by verification." Please, tell me how you do this.

                                      And again, it's ok if you can't give me a straight answer due to your pseudo-philosophy that benefits no one.

                                      Peace.

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                                        unknownuser
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #59

                                        Peace cheerleaders. Are you three one poster,mquran too?... rotfl
                                        'Repeat a half-truth enough times and you will convince yourself of its divinity'...
                                        Are you guys trying to convince me,the forum,or yourselves... bravo yay
                                        Take it easy on your emotions guys and gals...
                                        And where is your quran only state?..... confused

                                        Ps;brother SIMPLE,excellent post about the realities of governing a modern society....Seems others including mquran,are living unaware of the practicalities of running a state using just quranic slogans and theoretical ideologies... Thank god for enlightened democracy and secularism... yay yay group

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                                          Navid
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #60

                                          It's fine man, I'm not getting emotional. You make claims, bring no evidence, your claim gets refuted, then you get emotional.

                                          It's rather funny, you still haven't responded to the modern science thread. Heh. Good stuff. Oh well, what's the point when...

                                          Please guys,dont criticise me for not answering questions or diverting the topic,or not giving evidence...

                                          Double standards?

                                          So, so sad.

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