For every single freeminder, All. Salaat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

unknownuser

Hi All,

here is word whose meanings setisfy every salaat ayah of the quran - i belive , love to see any ayah where it doesn't setisfy the context."all-FEEDBACK -welcomed".

Counsel \Coun"sel\ (koun"s?l), n.

Interchange of opinions; mutual advising; consultation.

All the chief priest and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus, to put him to death. --Matt. xxvii. 1.

Examination of consequences; exercise of deliberate judgment; prudence.

They all confess, therefore, in the working of that first cause, that counsel is used. --Hooker.

Result of consultation; advice; instruction.

I like thy counsel; well hast thou advised. --Shak.

It was ill counsel had misled the girl. --Tennyson.

Deliberate purpose; design; intent; scheme; plan.

The counsel of the Lord standeth forever. --Ps. xxxiii. 11.

The counsels of the wicked are deceit. --Prov. xii. 5.

A secret opinion or purpose; a private matter.

Thilke lord . . . to whom no counsel may be hid. --Gower.

One who gives advice, especially in legal matters; one professionally engaged in the trial or management of a cause in court; also, collectively, the legal advocates united in the management of a case; as, the defendant has able counsel.

The King found his counsel as refractory as his judges. --Macaulay.

Note The some courts a distinction is observed between the attorney and the counsel in a cause, the former being employed in the management iof the more mechanical parts of the suit, the latter in attending to the pleadings, managing the cause at the trial, and in applying the law to the exigencies of the case during the whole progress of the suit. In other courts the same person can exercise the powers of each. See Attorney. --Kent.

In counsel, in secret.

--Chaucer.

To keep counsel, or

To keep one's own counsel, to keep one's thoughts, purposes, etc., undisclosed.

The players can not keep counsel they 'll tell all. --Shak.

Syn Advice; consideration; consultation; purpose; scheme; opinion.

Source Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Counsel \Coun"sel, v. t.

To give advice to; to advice, admonish, or instruct, as a person.

Good sir, I do in friendship counsel you To leave this place. --Shak.

To advise or recommend, as an act or course.

They who counsel war. --Milton.

Thus Belial, with words clothed in reson's garb, Counseled ignoble ease and peaceful sloth. --Milton.

Source Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Thank you.

Salaams.

salgan

Peace all

I said this a couple of years ago ,but the High Priest's of Free minds did not agree.

Peace Salim
They live we sleep

Wakas

peace,

Please run your meaning through the following comprehensive list to see if it fits

http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/quran_on_salat.htm

unknownuser

Salaams waqas,

why didn't you give me one where to your thinking it doesn't fit Br.

I have checked most and it was okay each time .

Salaams.

Wakas

peace simple,

I have checked most and it was okay each time

most?

Please run your understanding through ALL verses. Once done, let me know your thoughts.

I will respond then.

Thanks.

Wakas

unknownuser

Salaams,

lets try going through all the ayah's in which the sali word accurs one by one if we don't run out of patience.

starting with the last.

Araayta allathee yukaththibu bialddeeni

Seest thou one who denies the Judgment (to come)?
2.
Fathalika allathee yaduAAAAualyateema

Then such is the (man) who repulses the orphan (with harshness),
3.
Wala yahuddu AAalataAAami almiskeeni

And encourages not the feeding of the indigent.
4.
Fawaylun lilmusalleena

So woe to, the worshippers, such advisers/counselors.
5.
Allatheena hum AAan salatihimsahoona

Who are neglectful of their, prayers, counsel.
6.
Allatheena hum yuraoona

Those who (want but) to be seen (of men),
7.
WayamnaAAoona almaAAoona

But refuse (to supply) (even) neighbourly needs.

The sura Al-Maun = Small kindenesses.

It is cursing people who don?t carry out their advice themselves who are heedless of their own counsel/advice.

I am sure there are practical examples of this type where people give others lots of good advice but don?t practice it themselves.

Its the saying "practice what you preach" - the sura context.

Wakas

peace simple,

Firstly, I do not recommend using existing translations wholeheartedly. One should always analyse them to see if they are accurate, THEN insert one's understanding of "salat" (in this case) to see if it fits.

Secondly, NEVER deduce anything that is not SOLID. Always begin with whats solid, THEN fill in the details as one's knowledge increases.

Let see what chapter 107 says first before deducing anything from it. The following is a self-modified translation of existing translations. I have added some notes and clarified using colour to ease understanding.

Araayta allathee yukaththibu bialddeeni

Have you seen/considered him who is denying in/with the obligation?

"araayta" is in the perfect tense, i.e. an action done/completed.
"yukaththibu" is in the imperfect tense, i.e an action in the process of being done.

It is the one who mistreats/repels the orphan.
And does not encourage the feeding of the poor/needy.

Fawaylun lilmusalleena
4. So woe to the ones who go/turn towards or bond

Allatheena hum AAan salatihim sahoona
5. Those whom of their bond are unaware/heedless

Also see 5111 for "sahoona".

Allatheena hum yuraoona
6. They only want to be seen /show off/ make display.

Also see 4142 for "yuraoona".

WayamnaAAoona almaAAoona
7. And withold the far-reaching deeds.

See PRL for Miim-Ayn-Nun.
(1077 had several possible translations, I chose what I thought was best)

############

Cleaned up a little for readability...

Have you seen/considered him who is denying in the obligation?
It is the one who mistreats/repels the orphan,
And does not encourage the feeding of the poor/needy.
So woe to the ones who go/turn towards,
But of their bond are unaware/heedless.
They only want to be seen,
And withold the far-reaching deeds.

This chapter brings up some interesting points, some of which are mind-blowing

the word "al deen" is used, thus implying it is on about THE deen. (Where is 'al deen' explained?)

the opposite of deny is to acknowledge/accept, thus implies if one were to do these things (e.g. treat the orphan well, encourage the feeding of the poor/needy) this would be akin to acknowledging in the obligation. Interestingly, this directly implies it is about actions, so if you want to be of those who acknowledge in 'al deen', make sure you do these things.

the wording of 1074-5 implies "salat" and its associated words, such as "musalleena" are inherently positive words. Every occurrence of the root of this word (sawd-lam-waw) exhibits this property. This is also supported by the point below.

It directly implies that to be unaware/heedless of one's salat plays a crucial role in denying in al deen.
Thus, if we look at its opposite implication, it implies, if one were to heed or be aware of one's salat/bond, this would help acknowledge in the obligation. How does one acknowledge in al deen? Its already told us! It is do with action, activities etc, such as treating the orphan well, encouraging the feeding of the poor/needy. This provides a beautiful relationship between al-salat and deeds. With this in mind, now read 1187.

one can "salat" only wanting to be seen doing so. This shows it involves a physical presence at the very least.

It is also perhaps noteworthy that it seems to qualify the act with something before it, e.g. it doesn't just say doesn't help the orphan but it says mistreats/repels the orphan, it doesn't just say doesn't feed the poor/needy but it says doesn't encourage the feeding of the poor/needy. It may not imply anything, but I tied it in with "almaAAoona" of 1077, i.e. it is not just any/good deeds, it is far-reaching deeds, going beyond the surface. As I'm sure there are those who do things that are mainly for show but not much beyond. I'm sure you have experienced such people.

The chapter is about those who talk the talk, but dont walk the walk. A better way of puting it would be it is about highlighting the difference between knowing the path, and walking the path

Wakas

Background reading an understanding of salat from 'al quran'

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Please elaborate more on the concept of "counsel". I am not following. For example, we are told that our times of privacy are before dawn "salaat" and after dusk "salaat", how do you understand dawn and dusk "counsel"?

Also, how do you understand the following verse in regards to your position.

(223 Guard on the "cousels", the balancing "councel", and maintain to the God devoutly.

Lastly, please dont take on the attitude of calling others "high priests" and such names because that is not part of this system of God, it prevents others from taking time to study your position because if you cant prevent yourself from speaking negatively about people, how can you discipline yourself to be able to recieve Divine Guidance?

unknownuser

Peace all,

Dear Simple,
I cannot see how your interpolation of sallaa' (counsel) can logically and/or contextually fit in 2441...

Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the earth glorifies God? Even the birds wings outstretched together, each knows salaatahuu (it's salaat) and it's glorification. And God is fully aware of everything they do.

Dear Wakas,
It has been, I guess, about a year or so since I 've read your article on sallaat according to the qur'an. Can you remind if it addressed this particular verse (2441)? If so, I'll go back and read it again. If it doesn't, then I ask how would you personally understand this verse??

Salaam,
Damon.

unknownuser

Salaams Br. Damon,

i think ;

2441 See you not that Allah,he it is whom FOLLOWS whomsoever is in the heavens and the earth and the birds with wings out-spread each one knows its salaat/COUNSEL and its course and Allah is all aware of what they do.

Each soul FOLLOWS Allah by/through counsel and we know our course whether we take it up or not

? Therefore, congratulate My servants who listen to all views, then FOLLOWS/persues the best. These are the ones guided by God; these are the intelligent ones.

Only He knows if this is right though!

Salaams.

Wakas

peace Damon,

My article does not specifically discuss 2441, however this sign can be encompassed/understood by the understanding taken from the article.

I strongly recommend the following thread in which I specifically discuss 2441, and see the related links

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4320.0

If you still wish me to clarify my understanding of 2441, I would be happy to.

Wakas

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Please elaborate more on the concept of "counsel". I am not following. For example, we are told that our times of privacy are before dawn "salaat" and after dusk "salaat", how do you understand dawn and dusk "counsel"?

Also, how do you understand the following verse in regards to your position.

(223 Guard on the "cousels", the balancing "councel", and maintain to the God devoutly.

Lastly, please dont take on the attitude of calling others "high priests" and such names because that is not part of this system of God, it prevents others from taking time to study your position because if you cant prevent yourself from speaking negatively about people, how can you discipline yourself to be able to recieve Divine Guidance?

just a quick reply

Wakathalika jaAAalnakumommatan wasatan litakoonoo shuhadaa AAala alnnasiwayakoona alrrasoolu AAalaykum shaheedan wamajaAAalna alqiblata allatee kunta AAalayha illalinaAAlama man yattabiAAu alrrasoola mimman yanqalibu AAalaAAaqibayhi wa-in kanat lakabeeratan illa AAalaallatheena hada Allahu wama kanaAllahu liyudeeAAa eemanakum inna Allahabialnnasi laraoofun raheemun

Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.
4.

Hafithoo AAalaalssalawati waalssalatialwusta waqoomoo lillahi qaniteena

Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).

Qala awsatuhum alam aqul lakumlawla tusabbihoona

Said one of them, more just (than the rest) "Did I not say to you, 'Why not glorify (Allah)?'"

"Guard strictly your counsel?s and counsel with justice and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind)."

the ayah you brought up is merely talking about keeping justice in mind when giving counsel.

I don't think its about balancing as the examples above show its all about justice and not being deviouse in any way in our advicing.

how about- "HOLD THE MEETINGS - WITH JUST ADVICE (OR WITH JUSTICE), IN THE SITE OF GOD" or something!

By the way what was that about calling others high priests .......i couldn't understand.

God Bless.

unknownuser

Salaam Brs. Simple & Wakas,

Simple Wrote
"Salaams Br. Damon,

i think ;

2441 See you not that Allah,he it is whom FOLLOWS whomsoever is in the heavens and the earth and the birds with wings out-spread each one knows its salaat/COUNSEL and its course and Allah is all aware of what they do.

Each soul FOLLOWS Allah by/through counsel and we know our course whether we take it up or not

Therefore, congratulate My servants who listen to all views, then FOLLOWS/persues the best. These are the ones guided by God; these are the intelligent ones.

Only He knows if this is right though!

Salaams."

Thank You Simple for your clarification. GOD Willing, I will look into it further.

Wakas Wrote
"peace Damon,

My article does not specifically discuss 2441, however this sign can be encompassed/understood by the understanding taken from the article.

I strongly recommend the following thread in which I specifically discuss 2441, and see the related links

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4320.0

If you still wish me to clarify my understanding of 2441, I would be happy to.

Wakas"

Thanx Wakas, I will check out that thread and re-read your article afterwords, GOD Willing. If I have any more questions on it, I'll let you know. Thanx.

Peace,
Damon.

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

Firstly, I do not recommend using existing translations wholeheartedly. One should always analyse them to see if they are accurate, THEN insert one's understanding of "salat" (in this case) to see if it fits.

Secondly, NEVER deduce anything that is not SOLID. Always begin with whats solid, THEN fill in the details as one's knowledge increases.

Let see what chapter 107 says first before deducing anything from it. The following is a self-modified translation of existing translations. I have added some notes and clarified using colour to ease understanding.

Araayta allathee yukaththibu bialddeeni

Have you seen/considered him who is denying in/with the obligation?

"araayta" is in the perfect tense, i.e. an action done/completed.
"yukaththibu" is in the imperfect tense, i.e an action in the process of being done.

It is the one who mistreats/repels the orphan.
And does not encourage the feeding of the poor/needy.

Fawaylun lilmusalleena
4. So woe to the ones who go/turn towards or bond

Allatheena hum AAan salatihim sahoona
5. Those whom of their bond are unaware/heedless

Also see 5111 for "sahoona".

Allatheena hum yuraoona
6. They only want to be seen /show off/ make display.

Also see 4142 for "yuraoona".

WayamnaAAoona almaAAoona
7. And withold the far-reaching deeds.

See PRL for Miim-Ayn-Nun.
(1077 had several possible translations, I chose what I thought was best)

############

Cleaned up a little for readability...

Have you seen/considered him who is denying in the obligation?
It is the one who mistreats/repels the orphan,
And does not encourage the feeding of the poor/needy.
So woe to the ones who go/turn towards,
But of their bond are unaware/heedless.
They only want to be seen,
And withold the far-reaching deeds.