Are we enjoined to do sabbath ?
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MyrThank you for doing what I could not do yesterday because of lack of time, that is, translating word by word. It would be good to have also a word by word translation of all the other verses, at least members will see how God the All-Mighty clearly explains the verse and in a simple way and not this upside-down logic or sense of making a day of rest that people be cursed because they did observe it!!!!! Plus, the meaning of "ja3al'na" (we made) is clear too, see verses 2125, 2143, 433, 491, 548, 6112, 6123, 727 and many many others, they all show a meaning of to appoint/establish/to take place/to occur/command/order/put. I have never seen a manipulation of words meaning like in this forum to force what is called "logic" -).
Good luck dear-) just be prepared for another "excellent analysis"-)-).Well, one thing is clear to me, that the fish didn't come to them when they 'laa yasbitoon' and 'laa yasbitoon' is used opposite of 'yaumissabt', indicating that it's an activity as opposed to a 'day' as such. I will respond further to Ayman, below, inshaa Allah..
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Ayman3)When they transgressed in the matter of the rest.
4)When their fish are coming to them the day of their resting openly.
5)and the day they are not resting, they don't come to them.
6)thus We try them with what they were deviating/transgressing.Here are the facts from the passage
- Those people transgressed in the matter of the rest.
- On the day of their resting (for example, Saturday in the case of Jews) their fish came to them. Of course, they were resting so they didn't catch the fish despite the fish being apparent and close to the shore. Result no fish.
- On the day they are not resting (for example, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday in the case of Jews), the fish don't come. Result no fish.
- The punishment/trial is that they never got any fish despite fully knowing that there is fish out there (they see it on the day they are resting). Notice that the passage literally says "We try/punish them with what they were deviating/transgressing". Indeed, as we can see The God used their own transgression to try/punish them. It is their transgression that is keeping them from getting any fish. They could easily get the fish if they didn't observe the day of resting and instead break the resting and catch the fish when they see it near the shore.
Your interpretation works on the basis of a few (of what are to still to me) assumptions
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That as-sabt refers to the traditional jewish sabbath and means 'rest'
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That in 7/163, indha ta'tiihim hitanuhum means 'the fish came close to them, there is fish out there,' as you put it.
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I have not researched the etymology of as-sabt but I cannot accept the 'israiliyyat' interpretations because I do not believe in a historical AQ. AQ to me is a living book and thus the condition of as-sabt is potentially replicable now by Bani Israil whom I consider to be al-muslimoon of all time.
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You have seperated 'the fish came to them' and 'they caught the fish'. Well, in the word 'ta'tiihim' which is the word 'itaa' (as in aa'tuz zakaat, im sure you know), the indication of them getting the fish is already there. So when I read 'idha ta'tihim hitanuhum' , I take it to mean, they get the fish. No seperation between 'coming close' and 'catching'. This is read into the verse, im sorry to say. If the word was 'ja'aahum', then yes, you would be right.
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Peace MQ,
Your interpretation works on the basis of a few (of what are to still to me) assumptions
- That as-sabt refers to the traditional jewish sabbath and means 'rest'
This is your assumption. Please read carefully my previous posts. I clearly said in previous posts that it means "the resting" and it can be any day that people claim The God asked us to rest on. It doesn't matter if it is Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Eid, Christmas, XYZ or any other day of the week or the year. I gave what the Jews do only as an example.
As for the word "sabt" meaning "rest" this has nothing to do with Jews, just look it up in a dictionary and in the great reading. The word is used in the great reading in conjunction with sleep (2547) and one can see from the context that it means rest and again this has nothing to do with Jews so please stop being paranoid about Jews.
- That in 7/163, indha ta'tiihim hitanuhum means 'the fish came close to them, there is fish out there,' as you put it.
So what are you saying? That the fish jumped in their lap while they were resting on their sofa or their bed? Think about it. Your interpretation makes the passage illogical. I know that The God's words are not illogical so it must be your interpretation that is wrong.
- I have not researched the etymology of as-sabt but I cannot accept the 'israiliyyat' interpretations because I do not believe in a historical AQ. AQ to me is a living book and thus the condition of as-sabt is potentially replicable now by Bani Israil whom I consider to be al-muslimoon of all time.
Again, please stop being paranoid about 'israiliyyat' and all this traditional Jewish stuff that you assume. The context from the great reading confirms that the the word "sabt" means "rest". It would have probably taken you less than 2 minutes to go on Burhan's web site and verify all the occurrences of the word and confirm what I am saying. So at least make this small effort before assuming that I am part of some sinister 'israiliyyat' conspiracy. >
- You have seperated 'the fish came to them' and 'they caught the fish'. Well, in the word 'ta'tiihim' which is the word 'itaa' (as in aa'tuz zakaat, im sure you know), the indication of them getting the fish is already there. So when I read 'idha ta'tihim hitanuhum' , I take it to mean, they get the fish. No seperation between 'coming close' and 'catching'. This is read into the verse, im sorry to say. If the word was 'ja'aahum', then yes, you would be right.
The word "ta'atihim" can also mean come to them. This can mean come close by or fall in their lap. It doesn't necessarily just mean fall in their lap as you imply. Indeed, if they made an effort instead of resting they would have caught the fish. How did they get the fish when they were resting? Again, it is unlikely that the fish jumped in their lap. The meaning is also clarified by the opposite "la ta'tihim" in the next part. NO FISHERMAN no matter how hard he works gets fish to fall in his lap so your interpretation implies that there is nothing amazing and certainly no punishment in the "la ta'tihim" in the next passage.
Also, where is the punishment here and what is the lesson learned? Is the lesson that when you are resting fish fall in your lap and when you don't rest and work hard you don't get fish to fall in your lap? I don't think that rewarding laziness is the message here. The God said that He CURSED the COMPANIONS/OWNERS of the resting. Certainly the COMPANIONS/OWNERS are those who OBSERVE it NOT those who don't. The Jews INVENTED the day of rest and it is a lie against The God. This is the transgression NOT violating some arbitrary manmade day of rest on the completely arbitrary manmade week. It is no wonder that you ignore to translate the word "sabt", which is the key to understanding the whole passage. In order for your interpretation to work, we must ignore the fact that "sabt" means rest and we must assume that fish fall in the lap of people and that The God rewards laziness.
Think about it carefully and please research the etymology of "as-sabt" and provide the meaning you think is best. I hope that once you do this, you will see where I am coming from and then you can help everyone who is focused on the truth reach a better understanding.
Peace,
Ayman
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This is your assumption. Please read carefully my previous posts. I clearly said in previous posts that it means "the resting" and it can be any day that people claim The God asked us to rest on. It doesn't matter if it is Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Eid, Christmas, XYZ or any other day of the week or the year. I gave what the Jews do only as an example
Agreed. My mistake and apologies.
As for the word "sabt" meaning "rest" this has nothing to do with Jews, just look it up in a dictionary and in the great reading. The word is used in the great reading in conjunction with sleep (2547) and one can see from the context that it means rest and again this has nothing to do with Jews so please stop being paranoid about Jews.
It was my mistake but I reject your 'paranoia' accusation. Many Quranic concepts have been coloured by Jewish influence and so to be on one's guard is hardly being paranoid.
So what are you saying? That the fish jumped in their lap while they were resting on their sofa or their bed? Think about it. Your interpretation makes the passage illogical. I know that The God's words are not illogical so it must be your interpretation that is wrong.
What I'm saying is the fish was made available to them when they 'yasbitoon'. Catching the fish isn't part of this ayat.
So at least make this small effort before assuming that I am part of some sinister 'israiliyyat' conspiracy
.And you accuse me of paranoia D
We may differ in methods and conclusions but I've always respected your work.
The word "ta'atihim" can also mean come to them. This can mean come close by or fall in their lap. It doesn't necessarily just mean fall in their lap as you imply. Indeed, if they made an effort instead of resting they would have caught the fish. How did they get the fish when they were resting? Again, it is unlikely that the fish jumped in their lap. The meaning is also clarified by the opposite "la ta'tihim" in the next part. NO FISHERMAN no matter how hard he works gets fish to fall in his lap so your interpretation implies that there is nothing amazing and certainly no punishment in the "la ta'tihim" in the next passage.
I'm sorry but I do not accept 'come to them' because to me, AQ uses a particular word specifically and ita'aa as used in context like 'atuu bisuratin min mithlih' tells me the function of the word.
Also, where is the punishment here and what is the lesson learned? Is the lesson that when you are resting fish fall in your lap and when you don't rest and work hard you don't get fish to fall in your lap? I don't think that rewarding laziness is the message here. The God said that He CURSED the COMPANIONS/OWNERS of the resting. Certainly the COMPANIONS/OWNERS are those who OBSERVE it NOT those who don't. The Jews INVENTED the day of rest and it is a lie against The God. This is the transgression NOT violating some arbitrary manmade day of rest on the completely arbitrary manmade week. It is no wonder that you ignore to translate the word "sabt", which is the key to understanding the whole passage. In order for your interpretation to work, we must ignore the fact that "sabt" means rest and we must assume that fish fall in the lap of people and that The God rewards laziness.
Tell me, when you sleep at night, is it because you're being lazy? Many thanks for pointing that out, by the way. I will need to understand what goes on when we sleep and reapply it back. If the fish isn't 'itaa' to them while they 'laa yasbitoon' , then it is a state replicable to the one during sleep which produces this.
Think about it carefully and please research the etymology of "as-sabt" and provide the meaning you think is best. I hope that once you do this, you will see where I am coming from and then you can help everyone who is focused on the truth reach a better understanding.
Thanks. I feel I'm on to something as it is.
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Damn!
just when i was thinking of having a day of rest everyweek )
But thanks to Br.ayman - wonderful logic.
bravo
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Peace MQ,
What I'm saying is the fish was made available to them when they 'yasbitoon'. Catching the fish isn't part of this ayat.
As you are now saying "it was made available" as opposed to it "falling in their lap" as you originally implied. This is exactly the problem. How would they catch this "available fish" when they are resting? They can't. So result is NO FISH. So the punishment is that either way they don't get fish. I am sure that you can figure that out.
And you accuse me of paranoia D
We may differ in methods and conclusions but I've always respected your work.As you said, it is good to be careful and validate every interpretation and test it and I totally agree with this and respect it. The problem is that we need to apply this to our own interpretations first. For your interpretation to work one has to ignore that "sabt" mean rest and the fish has to fall into their laps, otherwise they wouldn't get any fish in BOTH THE CASES PRESENTED. There is no way around this. Also, you don't tell us what this day of rest is. You just claim that it was decreed by The God. So what is that day and how are those people supposed to follow The God's decree? Should they look in the Bible for it instead?
I'm sorry but I do not accept 'come to them' because to me, AQ uses a particular word specifically and ita'aa as used in context like 'atuu bisuratin min mithlih' tells me the function of the word.
MQ, tell me exactly what you think "ta'tihum" and "sabt" mean in English please.
Tell me, when you sleep at night, is it because you're being lazy? Many thanks for pointing that out, by the way. I will need to understand what goes on when we sleep and reapply it back. If the fish isn't 'itaa' to them while they 'laa yasbitoon' , then it is a state replicable to the one during sleep which produces this.
As I said before there is nothing wrong with having normal rest. The only problem is when people lie and say that The God ordered them to rest on certain days. The problem is not because of resting. It is because of lying. Now if a fisherman sleeps all day and finds all the fish ready waiting for him at the dinner table when he wakes up and when he doesn't sleep all day and works very hard he doesn't get anything then this is CERTAINLY REWARDING LAZINESS. From that point on, he will figure out that it is best to rest and not work every day. This is certainly not the message of the great reading. So this interpretation of yours can't be correct.
Thanks. I feel I'm on to something as it is.
Please have patience and make sure that you understand every single word in the passage well enough to translate it accurately. Meanwhile, I look forward to coming together to an agreement when you complete your study.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother,
just when i was thinking of having a day of rest everyweek )
But thanks to Br.ayman - wonderful logic.You can rest on any day you want but don't claim that it was decreed by The God. If it was up to me, I would work on Saturday and Sunday and take any other two days of the week off. This way I can avoid the rush-hour traffic jams for two of my work days. Similarly when I was in Egypt I liked to work on Sunday, Saturday and Firday when traffic was light during the day. I also like to work on Christmas and take other days off instead, especially if I am travelling on vacation. This allows me to get cheap airline tickets and avoid the Christmas airport congestions. ;D
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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peace
You can rest on any day you want but don't claim that it was decreed by The God.
I agree. If you follow al quran, that cannot be argued.
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Peace All
Did Abraham observe Sabbath?
When was it decreed?
Was it only for the People of the book or for the Children of the Israel or for All?
Was it decreed on the day when the mount was raised and God took a covenant from the Children of Israel?
Since the command ( on the day the covenant was taken) was not to transgress the Sabbath was Sabbath decreed before the covenant was taken?
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Peace,
The Bible doesn't mention that Abraham took Sabbath. This only appears in The Book Exodus; 208, 3113, Deutonorium 512-15Leviticus 252, 426,34, Jesua 564, Hebrews 49 Ezekiel 2012,228, Mathew 128, 2420 Mark 227 and Kol 216.
The story of Abraham is contained in the Book Genesis and doesn't account of any special day of rest. As for the story of Moses, we cannot attain certainty about what Laws were truly given to him and which laws were put into the story by the later people as to make them divine laws. The five Books were called the Books of Moses, but this title cannot be taken seriously. As we have edited versions of manuscripts which are labeled as being from Moses.
The Thora(books of Moses) is constructed around 500BC by what we call the editors. In those days every synagogue had their own collection of manuscripts about the laws and the history. Because of the Diaspora after Babylonia conquered Judea, the need was created to collect all these manuscripts to make one universaly used collection. So they gathered all the manuscripts and started editing them. Some manuscripts had information other maunscripts didn't had, and so they completed the others information. Also they started to mix the history with the laws so people would understand where it was formed.
So like Deutonorium and Numeri which contains the laws of Moses, are constructed out of at least 9 different manuscripts. Genesis almost the same amount. The Psalms are constructed out of several collections of songs, as psalms refers to layments. Propably only half of the Psalms are really connected with David. So all of these manuscripts are not in their original form as we have them now in the Bible. We have the edited versions from which it is hard to understand which laws and stories are real and which ones are not. Also the order is wrong in the Bible as the story of Job happened before Abraham if i'm correct.
The 'editors' as we call them, decided which piece of information was taken up in the new edited version and which pieces were not. As they constructed and formed the story in such a way around the laws of their choice, it is hard to find which were real and which were taken in. We don't know which part can be traced to Moses and which one is not. It is like Quran is mixed up together with Hadith and Tafseer and myths and then all mixed so you don't know really which is which and also parts of the Quran left out. We don't what is missing and what is real.
This also applies to the Gospels as we know they are build up from several manuscripts. Mathew,Luke had as bases Mark and on or two other sources that are lost now. Mark is based also on those sources and other ones, again lost. John is a mish-mash of Mithra legends, Gnosis and two other lost sources of Jesus-sayings as these are not found in the other three. If we look at the Gospel of Thomas, which only contains sayings of Jesus, we can see that this was the only important part of the teachings of Jesus for the first Christians, or rather Nazarene. Most Gospels are mixed sayings and history and are again chosen information by their compilers, and again we don't know what is real and what is their view.
Interresting note that Jesus even neglected the Sabbath by 'working' on them. And showed the priests ignorance and dumbness about Sabbath by asking them if they would save their donkey on Sabbath if it would fall into a ditch.
So there is no proof at all that it was a law given to Moses by God. No one can really prove or disprove that it was taking in by the editors in 500BC. The Quran and Ayman's approach do prove it was edited into the Laws by the editors. There is also no history directly to be found that it taken from another culture. But an 'observence day' was common with priesthood religions.
Hope this helps....
Peace
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peace arnold
The Bible doesn't mention that Abraham took Sabbath. This only appears in The Book Exodus; 208, 3113, Deutonorium 512-15Leviticus 252, 426,34, Jesua 564, Hebrews 49 Ezekiel 2012,228, Mathew 128, 2420 Mark 227 and Kol 216.
Those are not part of the bible? ( i dont know too much about it) I would like info, if you don't mind.
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Peace,
Bible comes from the latin biblia, which means collection of manuscripts. The Bible contains 75 different manuscripts each chosen. All these manuscripts talk about a specific prophet or history. Like the Book Genesis is the first book of the Bible, which tells the story of Adam, Abraham, Joseph and so on. The Book Exodus, Deutonorium, Leviticus tells about Moses and how he and his people were guided to Israel. Every book has it's own subject. So you wanted to know if Abraham was aquinted with the Sabbath, then it should have been mentioned in Genesis, but it is not in there, and Genesis is the only Book in the Bible telling about Abraham. The Books i gave above do contain the concept of Sabbath, and the first Book that talks about Sabbath is the book, where the story of Moses is told. Exodus, Deutonorium and Leviticus. But like i told above, we don't know for certain if that was part of the original text as they edited and included text in 500BC.
I hope this helps a bit....
Peace
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peace arnold
I hope this helps a bit....
Yes it does, thanks
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Peace All
Peace AY
Thank you so much for the explanation.
Quote Arnold Yasin
?It is like Quran is mixed up together with Hadith and Tafseer and myths and then all mixed so you don't know really which is which and also parts of the Quran left out. We don't what is missing and what is real.?
Do you think part of the Quraan is left out ?Also I wanted to know the answers to my questions on Sabbath from the Quraan.
I guess if we try to find answers to these questions through all verses (also verses preceding and after these 5 verses) related to Sabbath it is gravitating towards Aymans theory . I was wondering why, Ayman did not try to use all these verses to support his theory but instead concentrated onlyon 7163 in isolation.Referring to AYasins' information in which Jesus not only by not adhering to Sabbath but in fact scoffing at it made me think can Sabbath be possible in real life. Does that mean all utilities, electricity water transport all distribution emergency law enforcement, medical and health services have to rest as well? Or this will be transgressing the limits of the rest?
I thought this might be connected and like to quote 2 verses from the Quraan which instructs after the gathering on Jumua to go about and do our work or businesses.
62 9 O ye who believe! when the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly) hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah and leave off business (and traffic) that is best for you if ye but knew!
62 10 And when the Prayer is finished then may ye disperse through the land and seek of the Bounty of Allah and celebrate the Praises of Allah often (and without stint) that ye may prosper.God has not prescribed a Sabbath for the believers. But today in most Muslim countries Friday is a holiday and the people go to the masjid as early as possible (there are hadith to say there is merit in going very early to mosque on Friday) and also there are Jumua Eve programs in the mosque, basically it?s a Holy Holiday.
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peace arnold and all
Not to go off-topic, but on a related note. Did Jesus drink wine?
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Peace,
Quote Warner
Do you think part of the Quraan is left out ?No, it just to get an idea how the previous scriptures ended up. All previous scripture resembled the message of the Quran, but were not protected as the Quran. So they were edited and mixed up with later myth and theology. And things are also lost, so we cannot know what is part and what is not. I use the Quran as criterion, so i can get an idea what could have been part of the original message of those scriptures. The best result and clear idea of the message i got with the Veda's and Bhagada-vita.
And Imran, i don't believe he did drink wine as there are Gospels and references of the students that he condemned it. Also he was part of the Nazarenes/Essenes that didn't used wine in their rituals. But i 'll check further to be sure.
Peace
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peace
i don't believe he did drink wine as there are Gospels and references of the students that he condemned it.
Hmmm very interesting. I really find the conversation between Jesus and God really fascinating (on the day of judgement) 5116-118
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Peace,
That is one of the reasons i study Theology, to get the best idea on the history of the prophets and Deen, and then write books about the what the Quran tells us, and how it coincides with history. The Quran shows the correct history, it amazes me everytime.
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peace
The Quran shows the correct history, it amazes me everytime.
Not surprised.... Like what specifically
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Peace,
The believe in one God has always been present, this can be seen in almost all traditions around the world. The story of Moses, Joseph. Jesus and his true followers. The concept of how cultures rise and fall. But especialy the theology of monotheism and how it resonates through history. It is so much to explain and i hope in time to write articles and books about it.