Is your faith just intellectual?
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Enquirer, firstly for all your 'take it easy' comments, you should know I bear you no ill-will. What you and I are having is a theoretical discussion.
Peace mquran. I was like you for 5 and a half years....
Is this an extra 5 or 5 part of the 25?
I firmly believed like you,in the divinity of the quran,and followed a 'quran only stance'....I opposed the sunni interpretations of the quran,or anybody questioning its divinity/wisdom,i tried to understand the quran through the arabic language,internal and external verification,talked to quran only people,read quran only books,free-minds posts,etc,etc......
Enquirer, do you know how difficult it is for me to swallow the above paragraph. Once again, but you sir have displayed a view of al-quraan paralell to some of the Christian fanatics i've had the pleasure of debating. If you had spent 5 months, never mind 5 years studying a 'quran only' stance, you would not have been so surprised at being told that al-quraan doesn't demarcate people based on belief but on adherence to the law. Further, now you mention external verification but only weeks ago, you claimed al-quraan only proposed an internal explanation system! I'm sorry but I don't believe your claim.
I woke up when i realised that many of these 'beliefs',and many of these 'dogmas' were just a human attempt to long for happiness...and a fallible attempt at that.....
How enlightened of you to notice our fallibility yet in our discussions, you have done thing but evade point after point.
You can either take account of my cautionary tale,about 'wasting' years of life believing in 'fairy tale dogmas',or carry on doing what i was doing before i woke up......No-one is saying benefit cant be gained from the quran,but idolising/obsessing over it, ( as i did.) can lead to a lot of harm......
Please give me ONE example of how devoting one's life to the study of al-quraan (what you like to call idolising) can bring to harm?
And yes, that's what I think of your 'cautionary tale', it's a 'tale'.
But each to their own........subjective belief is ok,and fine,as long as it doesnt interfere with other peoples happiness and freedoms......(including the happiness of the 'subjective' individual concerned.)
Fine. As I told you, no one's coming to lynch you. I dunno about sunnis though.....
Peace all. ps; this is just a post expressing an opinion,not an attempt to start another 5 pages of mis-communication......Take it easy...
I do take it easy..this is a conversation.
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Peace Stitch,
I agree with most of what you said in your post, infact encourage it. ) However, if you don't mind please clarify this part for me;
Now, we can continue this debate with huge posts and quotes over the Quran and hadith, or we can get off our intellectual high horse and start making a difference in the world. There are hungry people starving to death, whilst we post on this forum. There are homeless people living in cardboard boxes (if they're lucky), whilst we post on this forum. There are all kinds of problems the Godless people have created that the truly God-fearing can change, but we are here posting on this forum.
This is no insult to oyu either, but from my point of view, you make it seem like "posting on this forum" impedes the doing of any good deeds. Please do not hesitate to correct me if I am wrong. Are you of the mind that one who regularly posts on this forum (be it to debate, discuss, share in knowledge or even just chat), they are would not have enough good deeds to show to their Lord? You also said something about efforts in posting being equal to the efforst in good deeds. I can only speak for myself, but posting on the forum is effortless, more or less like talking. The only time that I seem to put any effort is when I search for some verses to quote here, which I find educational. Some times, we take what we know for granted, maybe we've read the quran several time over and think we know it all. When a subject comes up for discussion, going back to the reading and being amazed all over again is a feeling, I hope I never get over. )Peace be with you
PS this post took me about 8 minutes to out down, in between work.
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Peace mquran. I will give you an example of how belief/studying the quran CAN be harmful in some situations,and for some individuals...
'A person knows instinctively in some situations what to do,yet a verse/meaning of a verse prevents him from doing the right thing,as he 'dogmatically' adheres to the verse rather than common-sense.......eg a persons interpretation of a verse charges a person with being a dis-believer or mushrik (wrongfully and mistakenly so in reality.) ,that person then divorces or treats the other person as a dis-believer (by which ever sense you want to take that.) mistakenly and wrongfully......Just a cursory reflection upon reality will show that this 'branding is wrong and unnecccessary in many cases',but the 'quranic blinkers' are on........Thus causing harm and injustice.....There are hundreds more examples of this behaviour in reality from quran only,sunni and other denominations.......If you dont believe me,or want another mountain of evidence,then i suggest you also want evidence for the fact that the sun appears round......?
Im not going to get into 5 pages with you as your criterion is the quran,so its pretty predictable what you are going to say in reply......
Peace,take it easy.....Im glad for your sake,that you wish me no ill will... handshake sun bravo -
Enquirereace,take it easy.....Im glad for your sake,that you wish me no ill will...
I don't. I may get overexcited in debates but there's no way I would wish anyone ill-will for disagreeing with my views.
Peace mquran. I will give you an example of how belief/studying the quran CAN be harmful in some situations,and for some individuals...
'A person knows instinctively in some situations what to do,yet a verse/meaning of a verse prevents him from doing the right thing,as he 'dogmatically' adheres to the verse rather than common-sense.......eg a persons interpretation of a verse charges a person with being a dis-believer or mushrik (wrongfully and mistakenly so in reality.) ,that person then divorces or treats the other person as a dis-believer (by which ever sense you want to take that.) mistakenly and wrongfully......Just a cursory reflection upon reality will show that this 'branding is wrong and unnecccessary in many cases',but the 'quranic blinkers' are on........Thus causing harm and injustice.....There are hundreds more examples of this behaviour in reality from quran only,sunni and other denominations.......If you dont believe me,or want another mountain of evidence,then i suggest you also want evidence for the fact that the sun appears round......?I don't want a mountain of evidence but with you, asking for a molehill of evidence can sometimes prove difficult.
I understand that you're saying al-quraan can be harmful when a person charges a person with being a kaafir etc. I'll give you one more example, if a person takes a 'kill them slay them' verse and applies it. There's one single problem with both those examples The reader didn't fully read it! He 'did a sunni' in the sense that he cut and paste the ayat into a whole other context. That's the problem here, not an obsession with al-quraan. A relationship with al-quraan is realised when you feel that your life can be 'decoded' in the 'denomination of al-quraan'. When you can do that, when you find the ayaat of Allah descending unto your life, being harmful will be the furthest state from your mind!
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'A person knows instinctively in some situations what to do,yet a verse/meaning of a verse prevents him from doing the right thing,as he 'dogmatically' adheres to the verse rather than common-sense.......eg a persons interpretation of a verse charges a person with being a dis-believer or mushrik (wrongfully and mistakenly so in reality.) ,that person then divorces or treats the other person as a dis-believer (by which ever sense you want to take that.) mistakenly and wrongfully......Just a cursory reflection upon reality will show that this 'branding is wrong and unnecccessary in many cases',but the 'quranic blinkers' are on........Thus causing harm and injustice.....
This is a very interesting example. I hope that you can expand on it. (And let's concentrate on those who do not adhere to traditionalism or make it about sunni/shia extrmists, etc).I would really like to know how one who believes in God alone and follows quran for guidance would do something to cause harm/injustice to a dis-believer/mushrik, whether that person is openly so, or a case of mistaken/wrongful identity.
Peace
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Peace mquran. Thats very good to hear from you,and if reading/studying quran makes you peaceful, and keeps you from harming anyone,then thats great.....
Im just wondering how many people actually reach this level,and how many people just say this with their theorising,yet dont reflect this 'peace' in reality.....?
Peace. ps; you must admit the ratio of readers to peaceful people ratio is pretty small,or is this always the fault of the readers...?
pps; zenje,i have just given an example in my previous post....Are you suggesting that no 'quran only' folks use the quranic verses for incorrect/unjust/harmful/mistaken purposes....? -
zenje,i have just given an example in my previous post....Are you suggesting that no 'quran only' folks use the quranic verses for incorrect/unjust/harmful/mistaken purposes....?
I was just asking if you could expand on this example, I thought maybe I was missing something. But that's alright.Thanks anyways. )
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Im just wondering how many people actually reach this level,and how many people just say this with their theorising,yet dont reflect this 'peace' in reality.....?
This level? I'm not some maharishi, you know. Al-quraan speaks in quite plain terms what to do and nowhere it does tell you to cause harm without a valid reason (defence or expiation of harm to others).
Peace. ps; you must admit the ratio of readers to peaceful people ratio is pretty small,or is this always the fault of the readers...?
I admit one thing. The number of readers is pretty darned small. AQ has been made into a book of hymns. Beautifully sang, but parrot-like. Further, most of the people who do read to understand do so mediated by hadith which adds another layer of obfuscation on the text. I'm not going to defend anyone. If they want to serve their mullas, then their issue. What I'm concerned about is that if someone thinks AQ is harmful, then do bring it forward.
The verse you quoted about labelling disbelievers are misdirected. I already told you, translating a word without rerooting back to the text isn't the way to go about it. To you, a kafir is just a non-sunni or non-qurani. That's not right at all. A kafir is one who conceals the signs of Allah and it will reflect in his behaviour. He's out to cause mischief on earth and to oppress. It's the duty of the believer to fight THIS. Of course now you will yell 'you're reading INTO the text' but am I? If you think so, why not prove it please?
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Peace mquran. you made a BIG assumption. I dont really believe in labelling/generalising into kafir or such like,so how can you say who i believe as kafir or not....?
How can i prove to you anything,when the only criteria you accept is supposedly quran? Bit circular hey...? There are a number of 'quran only' people who do have 'dangerous/unjust/illusional views......If you think this is not correct,then why is this movement so small,powerless,disjointed,dis-united and incoherent.....? Read some of the posts by members on the forum...(you know who they are who totally disagree with your reading of quran,they claim to read quran only as well......) I agree you and a few others make some very good observations on the world,but that doesnt excuse the lack of a coherent vision,and the lack of common morals.....viably you could possibly get about 100 hundred people around the world to agree with your reading of quran,but this either shows the lack of a universal message,elitism/error on your part,or worse.....message being incorrect,or even worse,worshipping of a false god.....
You have a lot to think about mquran.....
Peace. ps;nabi,yes i have previously applied qurans precepts,i personally found them unrealistic,except when i read into the text by myself........then i thought well,if im reading into the text,whats the point of the text......? -
EnquirerPeace mquran. you made a BIG assumption. I dont really believe in labelling/generalising into kafir or such like,so how can you say who i believe as kafir or not....?
I didn't say YOU called anyone kafir. You expressed the following concern
eg a persons interpretation of a verse charges a person with being a dis-believer or mushrik (wrongfully and mistakenly so in reality.) ,that person then divorces or treats the other person as a dis-believer (by which ever sense you want to take that.) mistakenly and wrongfullyI'm responding by saying that if you read al-quraan, instead of have someone read FOR you, you won't come to the above conclusion.
How can i prove to you anything,when the only criteria you accept is supposedly quran? Bit circular hey...?
You can prove to me anything empirical or following the laws of logic, though at present, I guess that's beyond you. And for God's sake, go learn what 'circular logic' means from your buddy Danish. He knows what it means.
There are a number of 'quran only' people who do have 'dangerous/unjust/illusional views......If you think this is not correct,then why is this movement so small,powerless,disjointed,dis-united and incoherent.....?
Being 'quran only' in name is meaningless, God will fry you just the same. What is meaningful is if you apply what is inspired on you. While you're right to ask why the movement is as you label above, I must in turn ask you, does this make your study objective? Because some people cannot agree, the subject of the matter itself is problematic? You're a free-thinking sunni, if there is such a thing D
Read some of the posts by members on the forum...(you know who they are who totally disagree with your reading of quran,they claim to read quran only as well......)
Once again, this is a pathetic way of approaching the subject. You claim to have spent 25 years and another 5 years and god know how many years and you can't stand up for yourself? Come on.
I agree you and a few others make some very good observations on the world,but that doesnt excuse the lack of a coherent vision,and the lack of common morals.....viably you could possibly get about 100 hundred people around the world to agree with your reading of quran,but this either shows the lack of a universal message,elitism/error on your part,or worse.....message being incorrect,or even worse,worshipping of a false god.....
Your criteria is your own. I don't base correctness on numbers. I base correctness on conformity of signs.
You have a lot to think about mquran.....
I always do, that's part of being human.
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JoeCan you provide me with an instance in your life where you found a divine precept was not practical?
After which, can you show us how the impractical reading was made practical by reading into the text? You've asked a valid question but I'd like to see an example.
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There are a number of 'quran only' people who do have 'dangerous/unjust/illusional views......If you think this is not correct,then why is this movement so small,powerless,disjointed,dis-united and incoherent.....?
Wow, this is your argument? Because we are a small group we automatically have dangerous/unjust/illusional views? Eek, enquirer.
So Galileo's theory that the earth was round was dangerous/unjust/illusional? After all, he was a small group.
If you can, please show where a "Qur'an-alone" member said something dangerous/unjust?
This is horrid logic, enquirer. I'm 14 and I can see this. Oh well, I don't know why I'm surprised; your argument to disprove Qur'an's divinity was "why doesn't it have everything about everything ever known to everything?"
Eek.
Read some of the posts by members on the forum...(you know who they are who totally disagree with your reading of quran,they claim to read quran only as well......) I agree you and a few others make some very good observations on the world,but that doesnt excuse the lack of a coherent vision,and the lack of common morals.....
Please show us where we lack "coherent vision" and "common morals."
viably you could possibly get about 100 hundred people around the world to agree with your reading of quran
Please, show us how you came up with this figure.
but this either shows the lack of a universal message,elitism/error on your part,or worse.....message being incorrect,or even worse,worshipping of a false god.....
Again, because we are few, we are wrong? This is your logic? Ouch, man. And you thought it was unethical to debate me because of my age? That's fine, I find it unethical to debate an adult with your logical reasoning.
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I realised that some of these debates are just intellectual decadence,and sometimes lead to ill-feeling and dislike......the opposite of peace....
I agree intellectual debates and discussions have there place in life,but not to the detriment of peace......I realise some people fall into the trap of defending 'theories about peace' rather than defending actual peace in reality.......Myself included....
Increase the peace....... bravopeace
that's the problem w/ debates human beings like to win, a lot of the debates i see the objective is to win not to find the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
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Peace all.
I'm not trying to sound mean here but I really think certain people (I wont name names either) should really learn about fallacies in logic. They're quite simple. They make us all better critical thinkers.
Here's a decent link that outlines some logical fallacies (there are many more, but this is a basic list) along with some examples. I think we'd all do better to learn them, particularly the argumentum ad numerum (appeal to numbers).
http//www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Why%20learn%20fallacies
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Peace Stitch,
I agree with most of what you said in your post, infact encourage it. However, if you don't mind please clarify this part for me;
Now, we can continue this debate with huge posts and quotes over the Quran and hadith, or we can get off our intellectual high horse and start making a difference in the world. There are hungry people starving to death, whilst we post on this forum. There are homeless people living in cardboard boxes (if they're lucky), whilst we post on this forum. There are all kinds of problems the Godless people have created that the truly God-fearing can change, but we are here posting on this forum.
This is no insult to oyu either, but from my point of view, you make it seem like "posting on this forum" impedes the doing of any good deeds. Please do not hesitate to correct me if I am wrong. Are you of the mind that one who regularly posts on this forum (be it to debate, discuss, share in knowledge or even just chat), they are would not have enough good deeds to show to their Lord? You also said something about efforts in posting being equal to the efforst in good deeds. I can only speak for myself, but posting on the forum is effortless, more or less like talking. The only time that I seem to put any effort is when I search for some verses to quote here, which I find educational. Some times, we take what we know for granted, maybe we've read the quran several time over and think we know it all. When a subject comes up for discussion, going back to the reading and being amazed all over again is a feeling, I hope I never get over.Peace be with you
PS this post took me about 8 minutes to out down, in between work.
Salaam Zenje and all that have responded to my post.
My statement was in no way to insult the efforts of the individuals here who write posts to support their beliefs. However, often enough I have come across posts where different views are constantly thrown into battle for the intellectual high ground. This can especially be seen when traditionalist Sunni/Shias come onto the forum with enormous posts of why following the Quran alone is wrong and support their claims with lots of quotes from the Quran and the hadith, and this is often peppered with a condescending and very aggressive tone. Outside of this forum (to which I am fairly new), I have had so many arguments with Sunnis that have made me feel like an 'Apostate' that I now want to finish the debating for the final time and put all that energy I used to in 'talking' into actually 'doing'.
However, please continue to post and air your views as discussion is good. I just don't want to spend any more time of my own trying to defend my faith, for my faith is for God alone to whom I shall return for judgement.
In the next year inshallah, I will endeavour to set-up a project/charity/scheme etc in London where followers of the Quran alone can meet and mobilise ourselves into a group that perform exemplary good deeds and start making a difference to our society and the image if Islam. Should God be with us, then no one can stop us.
Peace,
Stitch
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Peace Stitch,
In the next year inshallah, I will endeavour to set-up a project/charity/scheme etc in London where followers of the Quran alone can meet and mobilise ourselves into a group that perform exemplary good deeds and start making a difference to our society and the image if Islam. Should God be with us, then no one can stop us.
I sincerely wish you all the best in this venture and hope all that you strive for come to fruition.Peace be with you.