Is your faith just intellectual?
-
Peace Stitch,
In the next year inshallah, I will endeavour to set-up a project/charity/scheme etc in London where followers of the Quran alone can meet and mobilise ourselves into a group that perform exemplary good deeds and start making a difference to our society and the image if Islam. Should God be with us, then no one can stop us.
I sincerely wish you all the best in this venture and hope all that you strive for come to fruition.Peace be with you.
-
Peace all. I have given a clear cut and real-life example of how the quran was used to be unjust,the forum is peppered with more examples,just read the posts of the more 'colourful' and 'outspoken members to see more......
When you can show me that quran does not legislate for amputations,crucifixtions,whippings,four witnesses for adultery, (illogical and unjust,why 4?) disbelief/hell for trinity christians,certain jews,new age pagans,atheists,agnostics etc,etc then i will say the book is more peaceful than i thought.......
I appreciate that some members have different interpretations,and i respect them and their views......
However i will show how this attribution of 'HELL' to non-muslims causes harm.....This view brands and condemns anyone to hell who does not fall within the ill-defined and arbitrary 'islamic' belief system......Now i appreciate that mquran seems to be saying that it is not beliefs but adherence to certain laws that makes one muslim,i respect that greatly,however on closer inspection,what are these laws mquran is suggesting,is it qurans laws (with the various questionable laws and widely differing interpretations....in other words an incoherent,inconsistent or even 'rigidly interpreted archaic dogmatic' laws.) or some other universal law?
It would be interesting if mquran actually expounded on this,rather than just claiming whatever god legislates is just because god said it,that is circular.....
I tell you what,you guys seem to imply you have many of the answers,........you SHOW me HOW the quran IS just and humane,and how it applies for ALL times,i will look at emperical evidence backed up by quranic verses and cross-references,not idiosyncratic,wild,lone interpretations.........I look forward to any responses........ handshake -
Peace all. I have given a clear cut and real-life example of how the quran was used to be unjust,the forum is peppered with more examples,just read the posts of the more 'colourful' and 'outspoken members to see more......
What did they say exactly? Why do you insist on being so vague all the time? Give a CONCRETE example, please?
When you can show me that quran does not legislate for amputations,crucifixtions,whippings,four witnesses for adultery, (illogical and unjust,why 4?) disbelief/hell for trinity christians,certain jews,new age pagans,atheists,agnostics etc,etc then i will say the book is more peaceful than i thought.......
I can actually show you these thing as a matter of fact, but I really couldn't care less what you think of AQ. What I do care about is, do you have proof?
I appreciate that some members have different interpretations,and i respect them and their views......
You respect no one and nothing except your preconcieved notions. You have never answered anyone directly when it didn't suit your purpose.
However i will show how this attribution of 'HELL' to non-muslims causes harm.....This view brands and condemns anyone to hell who does not fall within the ill-defined and arbitrary 'islamic' belief system......
They are ill-defined for people who PRETEND to read, sure. If you find them ill-defined, BRING IT FORTH. Otherwise it's just you insulting people as usual.
Now i appreciate that mquran seems to be saying that it is not beliefs but adherence to certain laws that makes one muslim,i respect that greatly,however on closer inspection,what are these laws mquran is suggesting,is it qurans laws (with the various questionable laws and widely differing interpretations....in other words an incoherent,inconsistent or even 'rigidly interpreted archaic dogmatic' laws.) or some other universal law?
Al-quraan is tafseelul kitaab, so there's no difference.
It would be interesting if mquran actually expounded on this,rather than just claiming whatever god legislates is just because god said it,that is circular.....
Please show me where I said God legislates because God says so. Do you need to stoop to lies like this? I think Big Brother contestants have more dignity than you.
I tell you what,you guys seem to imply you have many of the answers,........you SHOW me HOW the quran IS just and humane,and how it applies for ALL times,i will look at emperical evidence backed up by quranic verses and cross-references,not idiosyncratic,wild,lone interpretations.........I look forward to any responses........
Another lie. You look forward to nothing except confirmation of your preconcieved notions. You're a dishonest poster who has been thoroughly and soundly disproven time and time again and it's your shamelessness which keeps you ranting your views. Do change please, stop this nonsense.
-
Peace mquran. ok,so when i stated that the 'whatever god legislates is just' theory refers to your posts,your saying it doesnt apply to you...? ok,i stand corrected if thats the case....So what is the case.....? You believe in god from the quran,or from reality,or verification,or what?
Part of the reason i dont quote the other posters is that you have a search function and you should KNOW the opinions of posters who justify non-sense in the name of god/quran......
Your so sure about the sunnis views,yet you dont know the views of those on your own forum.......Im not spoon-feeding you......
All you ask is proof hey,what proofs do you give,seriously? self-referring,existential interpretations,then running to mods because you claim someone offended your book.....How intellectually solid....
Listen,chap,your views to me are subjective,and apologetic,and impractical/idiosyncratic......
To be honest you havent even clarified your opinion on one quarter (metaphorical number. .) of the verses i questioned,seemingly because of emotional debating,and defending a book at heavy cost.....Whats the difference between you and a sunni putting the quran on top of a wardrobe,but still being incapable of defending it or applying it without resorting to subjective cheerleading and intellectual gymnastics (hadith or intellectual apologetics.) .......if you are one of the future representatives of 'quran only',then i feel comfortable that your group will achieve little......take a leaf out of kyles book,he knows what he is talking about,not just rants,grunts,moans,soundbitres,cheerleading,sectarian bias and subjectivism disguised as 'universalism'.....
I notice that you didnt actually respond with any verses,and very little empirical evidence.....pot,kettle,black........
I suggest you watch a bit more big brother,take some notes form your mate shabazz and others.....In other words,just talking to get attention.....
Chill out,and take it easy.....Think heavily before you post....I feel you are in a rut and seem to be obsessed with defending your book,which you have patently failed to do.......
Peace all. handshake -
Ok, all trash talk aside now. I will ask you one more time to respond to the question
You have accused me of reading INTO al-quraan. Kindly give ONE example of this.
And also, do look at the 'chap' reference. If you're trying to disguise who you are, you can surely do a better job...
-
Peace mquran. Here is just ONE example. You suggest that the prophets are 'archetypes',.....Yes? Show me that the prophets are archetypes rather than referring to 'specific historical people'...? (or are you going to say its refering to both? ) Are you an archetype,and if so,which one....?
If i have misunderstood you,or that is not your postion then i will give you another example....
And,by the way,how can you suggest to me that there is no 'reading' into a text by yourself or others.........?,Do you get infallible divine revelation from god when you interpret the quran?....If you do,show me the evidence of this from verses and empirical evidence......
If you refrain from answering i will let you go honourably.....and forgive you for your bombast.......
Take it easy.......Peace..... handshake -
nd,by the way,how can you suggest to me that there is no 'reading' into a text by yourself or others.........?,Do you get infallible divine revelation from god when you interpret the quran?....If you do,show me the evidence of this from verses and empirical evidence......
This 'evidence' has been given in the divinity section time and time again, yet somehow it still rears itself up on other threads...the same old debate. If one can't prove it wrong categorically when such debates start as has been seen in that section and other sections, I must ask people to refrain from bringing this up on other threads. Respond and complete one debate before moving on to the next.
If you refrain from answering i will let you go honourably.....and forgive you for your bombast.......
I would suggest looking at one's self regarding the 'answering' before accusing others please.
-
Peace mquran. Here is just ONE example. You suggest that the prophets are 'archetypes',.....Yes? Show me that the prophets are archetypes rather than referring to 'specific historical people'...? (or are you going to say its refering to both?   Are you an archetype,and if so,which one....?
If i have misunderstood you,or that is not your postion then i will give you another example....Good, FINALLY an example. Well done, my son ! Did you sit under a Lote-Tree contemplating this? Well done.
My response
I believe the stories in al-quraan are BOTH archetypes and figures in history but Allah has told us that their historical reality is unseen (anba'ul ghaib - see 12/101 for example)
12/111 tells us that the stories in al-quraan are 'ibratun lilulil albaab' - archetypes for people of the core and an explanation of everything.
21/10 tells us that in al-quraan is OUR mentioning.
41/53 tells us that signs of God in our nafs will make clear the ultimate truth or al-quraan.
I am not an archetype myself because I am not in the text of al-quraan, am I ?
And,by the way,how can you suggest to me that there is no 'reading' into a text by yourself or others.........?,
Do you get infallible divine revelation from god when you interpret the quran?....If you do,show me the evidence of this from verses and empirical evidence......I really have doubts in your literacy, man. Did you learn how to read or do you just pluck sentences out of nowhere, like sunnis do?
I gave you an interpretation regarding al-quraan's legal scope. You ACCUSED me of reading into the text. When I ask for example, you give this archetype stuff which WASN'T EVEN in the discussion. But I have explained it above.
Now, I ask you, show me where in that explanation, I read INTO al-quraan. The proof I read into al-quraan is simple, that is gives another meaning and that my inference contradicts it.
If you refrain from answering i will let you go honourably.....and forgive you for your bombast.......
Aww, how gracious. But it's ok, I'll keep it at it and make sure we get things clear
-
SC This 'evidence' has been given in the divinity section time and time again, yet somehow it still rears itself up on other threads...the same old debate. If one can't prove it wrong categorically when such debates start as has been seen in that section and other sections, I must ask people to refrain from bringing this up on other threads. Respond and complete one debate before moving on to the next.
Well, the fact of the matter is, Enquirer is struggling to bring up facts. He's good with slogans - like Lote-Tree was - but when it comes to facts, he hasn't got a clue. I ask him for an example and he deviates from the topic. The topic is simple does AQ guarantee human rights ? I've explained it does and Enquirer was so happy! Then he realised 'wait a second, now i cant defecate on it like i used to!' so he accuses me of reading INTO AQ. When I ask where, he talks about archetypes ?!? Lote-Tree was like this as well. They (!) don't know how to stick to issues. They're here to dump and dump they're doing.
-
Peace SC. well,why dont you and others prove it 'right' categorically......?
I noticed in your post to the 'what should i do' thread regarding potential adultery,that you didnt use any verses,nor did the majority of the posters that replied to that 'real-life' example......Did you loose the quranic morality/evidence when it came to real-life.......?
You know,it doesnt even matter that folks cheerlead for this book,because in reality when the problems hit the fan,they follow their own views anyway........
OBJECTIVE.......,yeah right........Who are people trying to kid....?
Oh,and i didnt accuse mquran in my last post of not answering......,i said, 'if' you refrain from answering'.....that a conditional clause,not an accusation.....If thats the way you read my posts,then no wonder you dont understand what im saying,and get all defensive,biased and start throwing around the arbitrary rule-book...
Peace anyway. handshake ps;look at your own behaviour....(612-3,quote that if you want to be consistent... .)
ps;mquran,you stated that in the quran there is our mentioning,and then claim that you are not an archetype because you are not in the text of the quran....which is it,are you mentioned or not........? thats another one of your contradictions/reading into texts,and some of the other are not confronting you on your mistakes for some reason...............?
peace. handshake -
ps;mquran,you stated that in the quran there is our mentioning,and then claim that you are not an archetype because you are not in the text of the quran....which is it,are you mentioned or not........?
Lote-tree, it's very simple and I must say, you're really showing your true (but bland) colours here. Al-quraan mentions my story, whether i'll be a mumin, kafir etc etc. It doesn't concern itself with my relativities, my name, address , email etc. Once again, READ the book please. Stop these childish accusations and bring on some substance.
thats another one of your contradictions/reading into texts,and some of the other are not confronting you on your mistakes for some reason...............?
Am i reading into the text? WHERE ? which verse please? I want you to quote the verse now. Please don't hide away again as you do when proof is sought .
-
Peace mquran. You have been caught with your pants down mister...... bravo
Stop trying to wriggle out with allegations,bombast,popularism and non-sense....
The verses you have read into are the ones that you had quoted in your 'archetypes post',which now contradict with your own words and terms.....
Be humble and admit your mistake,otherwise you are admitting quran has contradictions in it...........HOROR of HORRORS..........!!!!!!!
Peace. handshake Take it easy.....Try to handle the truth my friend.... -
As the intellectually-bankrupt Lote-Tree used to do, he would change the subject when answers are made. Enquirer, I am going to remind you of the debate you brought up where you accused me of reading INTO the text
Here is what I wrote. Show me where FROM THE BELOW DISCOURSE I have read INTO al-quraan.
This simply means that I have inferred into AQ what isnt there or what contradicts it. Don't run or change the subject, Enquirer please.
You have an underlying assumption that being a 'muslim' indicates belief in al-quraan and its entailments and being a kafir is antithetical to this. This has come from reading translations and de-rooting words from their contexts. Al-quraan is a cogent, coherent text and must be read as such.
While being in imaan entails being in islaam (3/85) - which goes to say that one cannot have belief as defined by al-quraan without submitting in the way al-quraan defines - the opposite isn't true (49/14 - a famous example of this). Firaun himself recognised this by calling himself 'from al-muslimeen' (10/90) relative to the God of bani israil while it is clear that bani israil themselves had kafireen among them (61/14).
In an islamic mulk/domain, a person who is in submission to the laws is a muslim. So being a muslim is an adjective, not a social, cultural, ethnic or even indicative of one's beliefs but one's actions.. It's the same with kafireen.
So when al-quraan says 'almushrikoon are najsun' (9/2 , its pointing to the behaviour of a people who have transgressed God's laws killing, causing mischief etc.
-
The verses you have read into are the ones that you had quoted in your 'archetypes post',which now contradict with your own words and terms.....
Be humble and admit your mistake,otherwise you are admitting quran has contradictions in it...........HOROR of HORRORS..........!!!!!!!Show me how please?
Al-quraan tells us that all human beings have
- wajh - expressions in the world
- manahij - methodologies
- shari'aa - flexible modes
- manasik - norms
but AL-AHKAAM belongs to Allah alone.
My story is explained in the ahkaam of AQ but my expression, methods, modes and norms are different from other human beings. Kindly address this point, Lote-Tree.
So how does it contradict?
I call a moderator to arbitrate here please. Have I not answered his question and has he answered mine.
-
Peace mquran. Running and running.......How long before you cry to sister Sc and the mods/admins about people insulting your book?.......Some of you do a great job of insulting your own book with the posts i read.........
Dont worry,i will get to the questions you asked in the earlier part of the thread.....be patient,as is recommended in the quran........Or have i got that interpretation wrong.....?
peace all. handshake ps;i guessed right you would run to a moderator.... -
Peace mquran. Please show me how you come to translate those four arabic words into the terms you do.....?
I feel thats going to be an education and a clarification in itself,and may answer some of your own questions......
Peace all. ps;lote-tree ran rings around you guys,as has danish and others.....you just have little response except subjectivity,name-calling,rhethoric and illogic...... ) -
As I expected, you're just an intellectual coward who's really devoid of substance. Yes I do call the moderators because you've made an accusation. I responded to you in GOOD FAITH because you promised me a substantial response. But you didn't. What you did was, you hid behind slogans. Now i've reposted it for you. If you cannot respond, well there you...that's YOU.\
Peace mquran. Running and running.......How long before you cry to sister Sc and the mods/admins about people insulting your book?.......Some of you do a great job of insulting your own book with the posts i read.........
That's the rule. You make a comment, you back it up or shut up. If you don't like the rules, go to dimwitforums.com. You can say what you like there.
Dont worry,i will get to the questions you asked in the earlier part of the thread.....be patient,as is recommended in the quran........Or have i got that interpretation wrong.....?
Oh sorry, you need to go shopping first don't you? Disappear for a week and pretend as if you never said it. Right, right, I forgot your tactic sorry.
ps;i guessed right you would run to a moderator....
Wow, you must a prophet yourself then?
-
Peace mquran. You have been caught with your pants down mister...... bravo
Stop trying to wriggle out with allegations,bombast,popularism and non-sense....
The verses you have read into are the ones that you had quoted in your 'archetypes post',which now contradict with your own words and terms.....
Be humble and admit your mistake,otherwise you are admitting quran has contradictions in it...........HOROR of HORRORS..........!!!!!!!
Peace. handshake Take it easy.....Try to handle the truth my friend....Bravo, I just realized that. What a hoot. Now just see how his pants fall apart on another thread which I have asked him to explain and he seems to dodge that one too. I'll bet you 'enquirer', that this 'prophet of doom' which we have on our hands will not go pass my very first concern in a moderated debate for he will be scratching his head and running up and down. All he has left with him is a BIG MOUTH.
-
Peace mquran. Please show me how you come to translate those four arabic words into the terms you do.....?
Sure, when you tell me where in that long post I read into al-quraan, i'd be quite happy to do that. The onus is on you now. Go do your shopping first.
-
Peace danish. I realise now the subversive tactics and diversions.....My god,is this quranic morality........? I would like quran only folks of this methodology to explain the verses on debating in the best way,kind words,saying straightforward words,not mocking,not slandering without evidence etc,etc.....seems these verse are disregarded,or re-interpreted.......My god,such fun in spinning new meanings........ bravo
peace all. mquran;isnt the onus is on you theory from greek philosphy and logic?......Does your view have any quranic merit or evidence.....? Take your time in answering...... handshake