Can you PROVE that God's previous scriptures have been corrupted?

Fahad1

peace.

Peace,

For one, arabic isn't thousands of years old. Noah and Abraham didn't speak arabic. This can even by seen by their names, which have a non-arabic meaning and source. Plus you can take the term, the Book, in different ways. You can approach it like you(if i'm correct on the theory you present here), and say this can only refer that there is only one sort of Al-Kitab and that is the Quran, which means all messengers recieved the Quran and in Arabic.

first , you misunderstood me . i didnt say , at least in this thread , that Koran is 'al kitab' . I said that Koran is ?al kitab? , on this forum a few months ago . but then I figured that I have some unanswered questions. So I m studying this topic now . I haven?t reached a conclusion whether Koran is ?al kitab?. Here is what i wrote earlier in this thread .

Ibrahim , Musa , Eesa , all the prophets recieved the Book(al kitab) . some say it is the book of universal history, others say it is the Koran itself . i m still studying this topic of "al kitab" to say anything conclusive .

You can also take it, that it refers to the same source of Revelation. The idea that Noah has gotten the exact same Book as Muhammed has some problems. For one, look at the difference on how God talks to Muhammed, how Muhammed must deal with his people. He talks to him and about his problems in a futuristic terms and present moment terms. This we can also see with Noah, but we only get snapshots about Noah and 90% of his story is in past-time language. The same holds for Abraham, Jesus and the other prophets were their story is 90% in past-time language.

That shouldn?t be a problem . since Koran already tells us that the prophets are mentioned in al kitab in past tense . I quoted the verses before too

1916 And mention in the Book Marium, when she withdrew herself from her family to an eastern place.

1941 And mention in the Book Abraham; he was a truthful man, a prophet.

1951 And mention in the Book Moses; he was loyal, and he was a messenger, a prophet.

1954 And mention in the Book Ishmael; he was truthful to his promise, and he was a messenger, a prophet.

1956 And mention in the Book Idris; surely he was a man of truth, a prophet.

the prophets received Al Kitab , and the prophets are also mentioned in Al Kitab . and in past tense . so no problem here .

Also the idols like Allat, who were not present under those names during Noah's time. The things told to Muhammed about what is going to happen to him or what action he should take, are 80% in present-time language. So to understand what is meant with the term Al-Kitab, you have to use cross-reference of verses to understand what is meant here. Is Al-Kitab the book that has never changed, not even in language and always passed on to different prophets? Or does Al-Kitab mean to the message and the source?

When i use cross-reference of meaning, i see the last one. Plus history of the Arabic language showing that it isn't a thousands of years old language. In Palestine in the time of Jesus, almost none spoke Arabic. Why would God send a message in a language they couldn't understand, and so the verse 4144 couldn't be said by them.

According to the Koran, the messengers are sent in the language of the people. if the people cannot understand the language of Allah?s book , the messenger can translate or explain .

Like 4144 clearly says FOREIGN reading. It doesn't say Arabic. It clearly states that no message is sent down in a foreign language that wouldn't be as clear to them as their own language would have been. It is detailed not because it is in Arabic specificaly, but because it is in their own language.

It is detailed specifically because it is Arabic. I hadn?t quoted the complete verse . if you read further , it says ?what ?Arabic and non-Arabic???

4144 And had We made it a foreign(non-Arabic) reading, they would have said "Why have not its verses been detailed?" What ?foriegn/(non-Arabic) and Arabic?? ? "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is a deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away"

When you read verses as, 'where is their Book they follow?', it refers to that during the time of the revelation of the Quran, there wasn't any original Al-Kitab left that wasn't distorted.

What are you talking about ? al kitab was there and people were already reading it

1094 If you are in doubt in what We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading Al-Kitab/The Book from before you. The truth has come to you from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.

If i write a book, and later people change things in it, would it still be my book then? No, of course not. So that is the logical to say that there wasn't any Al-Kitab present anymore.

Bro, we are talking about a book written by Allah , not by humans . when He writes something, NO ONE can change it . NO ONE can change the words of Allah . do u agree ?

They only have bits and pieces.

Bits and pieces? Not even traces of knowledge, bro. (464 ?Come to me with a book/kitab from before this, or any traces from knowledge if you are truthful .)

6114 Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

If there weren't any scriptures anymore, at least partialy, how can they recognize the Quran?

Bro , there is not a single verse telling us that some ?previous scriptures? are ?partially preserved? . correct me if I m wrong ,please , by showing me any such verses .

That it is why it also revealing that instead of saying 'those who HAVE the scripture' it says 'those who recieved it'. If i write a book, and it gets changed over time. Then do they still HAVE my book?

Again, we are talking about Allah?s words . His words don?t get changed over time . they remain the same always ,in all times, past, present and future .

Then do they still HAVE my book? No. But did they recieved it? They certainly did.

Did the present day jews and Christians received the ?original Bible?(whatever it is) . certainly not .

And to recognize one of my new revealed books, they should have parts left of the message.

Bro,where do u get this idea from ? even traces of knowledge(464) aren't left .

It is a real interresting approach Saladin(if i got your theory right, if i mistook you, please excuse me),

You sure mistook me . i havent reached any conclusion like "al kitab" being the Koran yet . but no problem ) .

I do agree that the Al-Kitabs of the former prophets contained the same message for about 80-90%, but it talked about in their language and especially used examples they knew. People of history that were known in their time, which are unknown now.

What? People of their time are unknown now? Nope . people from even the time of Adam ,to Nooh and Ibrahim are still known today , right . (and by the way, prophets are also mentioned in ?al kitab? . read 1916, 1941 ,1951, 1954, 1956 )

So i believe, Al-Kitab refers to the message and the source, and not that it is the exact 100% same revelation given to all prophets. In the time of Moses, his revelation was THE Book, as there were none in that time that were direct revelation. Like Micheal Jackson was THE star in the 80's, and Elvis was THE star in the 60's.

you haven?t given any proof for your understanding . and again , the words of Allah do not change like MJ and Elvis

6115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice, there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

peace.

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Saladin, i understand a bit better now what you mean. I do not totaly agree with some ideas. Certainly not the idea that the messengers translated it. But in time we can discuss further on this.

Fahad1

How about 2285 bro?

2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers"; and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."

the "kutub/books/writings" in 2285 are inside the Koran. they are not seperate

981 Those who reject from Ahlal Kitab/people of the Book and those who associate will not disconnect until there comes to them the clarification.
982 A rasool/messenger from Allah, he recites purified pages.
983 In them(pages) are kutub/books/writings established .

Can somebody give me a list of possible meanings of Kitab? I mean, I know that one word in arabic can have many different meanings, so we must take into consideration the context and not just taking them out of context.

Example
1713 And every man's augury have We fastened to his own neck, and We shall bring forth for him on the Day of Resurrection a book (Kitab) which he will find wide open.

Kitab in 1713 doesn't mean quran, does it? So I suspect 983 is such a case.

you can try to explain why you suspect it .

the messenger recite the verses of Allah . you can read that many in places in the Koran . where are the verses of Allah ? what are the purified pages ?

the messenger does not recite the kitab in 1713 , but every man will read his book himself

1714 Read your kitab/book! It is enough for you that you are aware of yourself today.

How about this?

393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."

what about it ?

I believe 393 negates your understanding. Children of Israel must have received a scripture.

ok . they must have .

And then somehow the corruption took place.

who can corrupt the words of Allah ?! no one .

I really don't know who are "others" that you are talking. It is the first time in this forum I read a claim that all prophets read the SAME ARABIC SCRIPTURE as we read nowadays.

here are the "others" www.iipc.tv

Which section bro? Is what he says exactly the same as your understanding here that all prophets received exactly THE SAME ARABIC quran we read nowadays?

no , but i m studying it .

peace.

Fahad1

Peace,

Saladin, i understand a bit better now what you mean. I do not totaly agree with some ideas. Certainly not the idea that the messengers translated it. But in time we can discuss further on this.

ok. peace.

andy

Salaam bro Saladin,

What I understand from your understanding is

All prophets received the SAME ARABIC quran as we read nowadays
Even though arabic language is not that old (according to bro Arnold), the messengers can understand and translate it for the people at their respective time
So the scripture has always been the same from the very beginning until this very moment

I think the idea is interesting but it has to be carefully examined (and free minds is a good place to do it).

How about this bro?

172 And We gave Moses the Scripture (Kitab) and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel "Do not believe in any besides Me."

So the Scripture (Kitab) given to Moses was made guidance for children of Israel.

Compare with this for example

22 This is the Scripture (Kitab) in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.

And in 22 the Scripture (Kitab) sent down to Muhammad is guidance for the righteous.

How can they be the SAME ARABIC scripture if one is for the children of Israel and the other is for righteous?

Wassalam,

Fahad1

salam bro.

Salaam bro Saladin,

What I understand from your understanding is

All prophets received the SAME ARABIC quran as we read nowadays
Even though arabic language is not that old (according to bro Arnold), the messengers can understand and translate it for the people at their respective time
So the scripture has always been the same from the very beginning until this very moment

i dont believe it . but i have thinking on it . i have already clearified this a number of times )

i wrote

first , you misunderstood me . i didnt say , at least in this thread , that Koran is 'al kitab' . I said that Koran is al kitab , on this forum a few months ago . but then I figured that I have some unanswered questions. So I m studying this topic now . I havent reached a conclusion whether Koran is al kitab. Here is what i wrote earlier in this thread .

Ibrahim , Musa , Eesa , all the prophets recieved the Book(al kitab) . some say it is the book of universal history, others say it is the Koran itself . i m still studying this topic of "al kitab" to say anything conclusive .

i havent reached any conclusion like "al kitab" being the Koran yet .

you wrote

I think the idea is interesting but it has to be carefully examined (and free minds is a good place to do it).

How about this bro?

172 And We gave Moses the Scripture (Kitab) and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel "Do not believe in any besides Me."

So the Scripture (Kitab) given to Moses was made guidance for children of Israel.

Compare with this for example

22 This is the Scripture (Kitab) in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.

And in 22 the Scripture (Kitab) sent down to Muhammad is guidance for the righteous.

How can they be the SAME ARABIC scripture if one is for the children of Israel and the other is for righteous?

there is also a lecture about "Book of Musa" on www.iipc.tv . checkitout .

salam.

andy

you can try to explain why you suspect it .

the messenger recite the verses of Allah . you can read that many in places in the Koran . where are the verses of Allah ? what are the purified pages ?

the messenger does not recite the kitab in 1713 , but every man will read his book himself

1714 Read your kitab/book! It is enough for you that you are aware of yourself today.

I give you the example in 1713 to make it clear that the word Kitab can mean many things depending on the context in which the word occurs. So for 1713, we can translate Kitab as record.

FM translation
173 And We have attached to every person's neck his deeds, and We bring forth for him a record on the Day of Resurrection which he will find on display.

That is why I suspect in 983 Kitab should be understood accordingly (by taking into consideration the context). This is how some scholars translate them

Asad translation
983 wherein there are ordinances of ever-true soundness and clarity.

Khalifa translation
983 In them there are valuable teachings.

Shakir translation
983 Wherein are all the right ordinances.

2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers"; and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."

And then somehow the corruption took place.

who can corrupt the words of Allah ?! no one.

Please don't play a word game. You know what I mean by corruption, which is the deviation from the true teaching. Quran is not corrupted and no one can change the words of Allah but still due to hadiths, the corruption takes place. And if you play a word game that the words of Allah is the written quran, I can also play a word game that somebody can "corrupt" the words of Allah by burning the mushaf. I hope you understand what I mean.

Wassalam,

Fahad1