Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory
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Salaam FJ
You have said this
?Well, I do agree that we have to put in a little work ourselves, but tell me did you really put a little work in writing this artcile, was it easy for you to break down all the verses and point out to Arab speakers and non-arab speakers that there are 5 Salat. I bet it wasn't easy at all.?
To tell you the truth FJ it was easy work for me. I have written a lot of things on that level and more and putting that together was quite easy. I never heard of the ?3 Salaat Theory? before in all my life until a Muslim who is also in this forum brought this subject matter to my attention. He is the Muslim I never identified by name in my rebuttal because I did not want to compromise his confidence. I referred to that person as the one I had dialogue with using email. I personally wrote him some research ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory? and provided the web link to him so that he can analyze the arguments and then later on I took that same research and expanded it which turned into what you have read. If you are curious I still have that original link. Go to the link below and you can see what lead into the extensive research that you have read. Note this link will stay active for a short period of time
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/draft2.htm
If this person is still active in this forum I want to take the time out to thank you because if it wasn?t for you, I would not have ever written this research exposing the ?3 Salaat Theory?, Alhamdulillah. But again FJ it was very easy for me to put it together and I enjoyed doing so because I seek pleasure in taking part among many Muslims in spreading Islaam or the Pure Teachings of Islaam.
FJ, you have said I have over looked your question, that is not the case, I have directly answered it in post July 11, 2006, 011300 AM. Why do you ignore the other verses that highlights other Salaat periods which proves that there are 5 Salaat. Why do you think all 5 Salaat periods should be mentioned in one verse. Go back and read that post again 5 Salaat are there. In my rebuttal I have documented 5 Salaat in Al Qur?aan. The subject is addressing whether or not there are only 5 or 3 Salaat in the Qur?aan and I try to avoid drifting away from the premise argument, unlike many here who has. I have clearly mapped out 5 Salaat. FJ, if you cannot see that I do not know what else to do for you. Every body will not see and accept truth.
You have said this
?Brother Al-khidr you know very well that those who do not speak Arabic rely on the explanations and interpretations of those who speak Arabic. You see there are several translations of Quran online and each of them difers from the other... tell me which one should I trust as the most accurate translation? The answer is none of them is 100% conveying the color and all the little details of the arabic Quran. All the translators were human and we all know human is prone to make mistakes. FACTS ARE FACTS AS YOU SAY. So, to say this Subject does not take Arabic knowledge to know smth simple as to whether or not Allah revealed 5 or 3 Salat in the Quran is not correct! You said it is simple but the amount of time and work you spend on your article tells the oposite of that and plus the amount of time and trouble it is taking you to convince even those who speak Arabic. Does this mean simple and easy? No, it doesn't.?
I kind of think you missed my point so let me fine tune it a little bit. First I want to say that some of the points that you have raised take some level of Arabic knowledge and that is true FJ. It is true that a translation of Al Qur?aan is a human made product and cannot in no way be equal to the original Arabic text of the Holy Qur?aan. And it is also true that men have mistranslated the Qur?aan by accident and also by design to mislead the masses and sometimes it takes some level of Arabic to see through this madness and distortion. But that is not an absolute thing here that we are talking about because there are also a lot of things pertaining to the understanding of the Qur?aan that does not take Arabic knowledge and I personally feel that this subject matter here ?3 Salaat Theory? does not take Arabic knowledge for some one to know that Allah has prescribed 5 or 3 Salaat, thus, again this confusion only exist among Progressive Muslims and that?s it, all other Muslims are sound that there are only 5 Salaat. When I put my research together, I did not put it together in one or two days but the time that I spent in research and putting it together did not take a great deal of time, thus it took some time but not a great deal of time. I had the physics in my mind and my greatest job or task that I had ahead of me was to translate the physics in my mind on paper (which is the website) in way that most will understand and such understanding will be crystal clear to them that Allah has prescribed only 5 Salaat and not 3. I have been studying Islaam for many many years since I was young to the present and putting in the work (studying) over the years has enabled me to put together information in a nice timely fashion and of course that time is relative, it all depends on the project at hand.
You have said this
?What if code 19 suggested that there are not 5 Salat, what would you say to traditionalists then? Remember the verse where it says that generations followed after them and they lost the Salat and followed desires. How do you explain this lost Salat, is it because they mention the name of Muhammad along with God and that they do some other things that code 19 removed? It's you and me and everyone else that belong to the generation that followed after them, which lost the salat and followed desires. The verse says that the Salat of today is incorrect unless I am wrong and missing something for which I am sure you will bring smth to tell me I am mistaken. And traditionlist all argue that the Salat is not detailed in Quran hence their Salat is from hadyith.?
I do not know if I am missing any points in here but we do not need the mathematical code 19 to prove that there are 5 Salaat among the traditionalist because remember they already know that there is 5 Salaat and they are observing 5 Salaat today as we speak. You see the 19 was additional arguments that I brought forth but we can clearly see that there are 5 Salaat periods in the verses of Al Qur?aan without using the Divine Mathematical Code 19. Now I think this link from my website will answer the rest of your questions here in your above quote
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/findsalaatinquraan.htm
Salaam
Selam all
Al-khidr
Allah has revealed 114 Chapters and over 6000 verses and it amazes me to see that you would think all 5 Salaat would be mention in that one verse. It would be nice if Allah fed spooned us like that, but sometimes we have to put in a little work ourselves.
Well, I do agree that we have to put in a little work ourselves, but tell me did you really put a little work in writing this artcile, was it easy for you to break down all the verses and point out to Arab speakers and non-arab speakers that there are 5 Salat. I bet it wasn't easy at all.
Other then my original rebuttal this link will answer your question in a condensed form or fashion. It is very clear that we have 5 Prayers or Salaat mentioned in the Qur?aan and pay close attention to which Salaat period I listed 2458 at.
I read the article for the second time but maybe my and some other minds in this forum are blocked and we cannot make a difference of white from black!
Again let me remind you of the question I asked you and you seem to overlook it. Why is saying other than these three private times we can intermingle? What is this intermingling and do you see any Salat during this intermingling?You have said that you have read my original rebuttal and I want to thank you for that but did you over look the following Salaat periods I listed in my original rebuttal?
No my brother I did not over look them and I read the article twice. But let me ask you this did you over look my question about intermingling in 2458 and why these two salaat times are private and is there a difference between these two private salat times with the other three Salaat times?
FJ I have used Arabic in my original rebuttal entitled ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory? but to be truthful with you, this subject does not take Arabic knowledge to know something simple as to whether or not Allah revealed 5 or 3 Salaat in the Qur?aan.
Brother Al-khidr you know very well that those who do not speak Arabic rely on the explanations and interpretations of those who speak Arabic. You see there are several translations of Quran online and each of them difers from the other... tell me which one should I trust as the most accurate translation? The answer is none of them is 100% conveying the color and all the little details of the arabic Quran. All the translators were human and we all know human is prone to make mistakes. FACTS ARE FACTS AS YOU SAY. So, to say this Subject does not take Arabic knowledge to know smth simple as to whether or not Allah revealed 5 or 3 Salat in the Quran is not correct! You said it is simple but the amount of time and work you spend on your article tells the oposite of that and plus the amount of time and trouble it is taking you to convince even those who speak Arabic. Does this mean simple and easy? No, it doesn't.
It amazes me to see how this subject 5 or 3 Salaat is only an issue among Progressive Muslims. We Muslims all over the world whether we follow Qur?aan alone or the traditionalist know that Allah has prescribed 5 Salaat in the Qur?aan. To us this subject matter is clear as day light itself?
What if code 19 suggested that there are not 5 Salat, what would you say to traditionalists then? Remember the verse where it says that generations followed after them and they lost the Salat and followed desires. How do you explain this lost Salat, is it because they mention the name of Muhammad along with God and that they do some other things that code 19 removed? It's you and me and everyone else that belong to the generation that followed after them, which lost the salat and followed desires. The verse says that the Salat of today is incorrect unless I am wrong and missing something for which I am sure you will bring smth to tell me I am mistaken. And traditionlist all argue that the Salat is not detailed in Quran hence their Salat is from hadyith.
Peace,
FJ -
Peace all. I just want to state that i understand and respect what brother idol-free said to khidr...This is the real world,...kyle did not seem to threaten khidr,but was just saying how his feelings would be,as a result of his philadelphia upbringing,if khidr was very disrespectful to him in person...Note kyle said he hoped he would transcend that negative emotion... I see others trying to intellectualise this discussion away from reality and into fairyland....I would like to see mr khidr and miss zainab step into the real world,and try to go to their local hood and see how far this hidding behind the computer mentality would take them when face to face with reality....I honestly feel that some posters are just eloquent insulters and like to win their fairyland debates...I would like to know the ages and real-life experiences that these characters have, before i respect their off the cuff,conditioned,self aggrandising,insecure and defensive posturing....Some folks got a lot of real-living,de-brainwashing and soul-searching to do.....
And really,who cares of two,three,four five or ten salat/prayer a day.....Just do whatever works for you practically.....Why the need for mass-produced,farm processed,monopolised,one size fits all soloutions.....? And how well do these peoples salats/rituals/prayers actually work,when their minds are still fuzzed in illusions,away from reality,and the manners are lacking....
When i see posters like these,i wonder what psycholgical condition they are in,clinging to illusions to make themselves feel superior,or more secure,then trying to impose their suspect understandings on everybody else,or trying to belittle others REAL-LIFE research....Like spoilt children.......ps; idolfree; just walk away from this non-sense and dont upset your peaceful state of mind,just view these people as being like little children being mischievious,dont let these ignorant people draw you in to mindless debates that may upset you,and lessen your positive energy...I have confidence that you will transcend this 'mini trial',im sure in the hood these folks wouldnt even look in your direction....'Sticks and stones may break my bones,but names will never hurt me'....In the grand scale of things what matters (as you well know.) is your reaction/response to outside events,and your reaction being positive,beneficial and having good consequences.....I look forward to your great posts,and very much appreciate your 'real-life' input on many threads......Keep it real...... handshake muscle bravo yay group
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Selaam all
Peace be upon you Brother AL-khidr and thanks for the quick reply and I appreciate the fact that you are taking some time to answer my questions.
You said this
FJ, you have said I have over looked your question, that is not the case, I have directly answered it in post July 11, 2006, 011300 AM. Why do you ignore the other verses that highlights other Salaat periods which proves that there are 5 Salaat. Why do you think all 5 Salaat periods should be mentioned in one verse. Go back and read that post again 5 Salaat are there. In my rebuttal I have documented 5 Salaat in Al Qur?aan. The subject is addressing whether or not there are only 5 or 3 Salaat in the Qur?aan and I try to avoid drifting away from the premise argument, unlike many here who has. I have clearly mapped out 5 Salaat. FJ, if you cannot see that I do not know what else to do for you. Every body will not see and accept truth.
I checked the post you gave above and it does address one of the question and that is why God did not say regarding 5 times. I agree with you that we should not expect all Salat times to be in one whole verse or sura even though the Quran is made easy to understand and has no ambiguity, and I know that subjects are scatered throughout the Quran and the reason is because God want so see who gives a little effort in finding the truth. The question, which you did not answer for whaterver reasons is this
Why, did God say that there is nothing wrong for us to intermingle with one another except these three times. I do not see any Salat during this INTERMINGLING, DO YOU? And is there a diference between these two Salaat times mentioned by names in this verse from the other three times in the other verses, which you say I am ignoring? Is that question hard to answer? Here is the post and see for youself wheather you answered or not?See there is no answer to the question about intermingling. None, not one at all. The post addressed why God did not say regarding 5 times in that verse but it did not address why there is intermingling allowed except those three times. I do not see any Salaat during this intermingling. So my question to you is do you see any Salat during this intermingling or not?
Posted on July 11, 2006, 011300 AM ?
Posted by Al KhidrSalaam FJ
FJ you have said this
?Brother Al-khidr how do you explain verse 2458 where the three times are mentioned? Why did not God say regarding 5 times but He mentioned only three times and two of them are private Salat times??
I believe one of the biggest mistakes that you are making is assuming that all 5 Salaat is supposed to be mentioned in that one verse (245. Allah has revealed 114 Chapters and over 6000 verses and it amazes me to see that you would think all 5 Salaat would be mention in that one verse. It would be nice if Allah fed spooned us like that, but sometimes we have to put in a little work ourselves. This question ?Where are the 5 Salaat in Al Qur?aan? have already been addressed and answered in my original rebuttal and you can also find them here at my following post in this thread
Post on July 02, 2006, 095316 PM
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6028.210Other then my original rebuttal this link will answer your question in a condensed form or fashion. It is very clear that we have 5 Prayers or Salaat mentioned in the Qur?aan and pay close attention to which Salaat period I listed 2458 at. FJ, it is really no purpose to present information that has already been addressed over and over again, we want to avoid going around in circles and circles. You have said that you have read my original rebuttal and I want to thank you for that but did you over look the following Salaat periods I listed in my original rebuttal?
(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr) given in 11114, 2458
(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuhr), given in 1778 and 3018
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr), given in 2238
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib), given in 11114
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha), given in 2458I want to quote an excerpt from a debate that Basma Khalifa had with Omar Edibat on Salaat. Below is what she said in response to a similar question like yours
?Reading throughout the Quran and examining its pattern, we can easily see that information and specifications for certain matters are scattered throughout the Quran. We conclude orders and laws by looking at the whole context of the Quran. We get the whole picture of the Hajj by examining several chapters of the Quran (2, 5,9,22, 4. The month of Ramdan and fasting is specified over many verses in chapter 2, while the Night of Power is exclusively mentioned in chapter 97. The whole picture of divorce is scattered throughout chapters 2, 4, 33, 60, 65, 66.
So it's not unusual for the five prayers to be mentioned in several verses. We cannot dictate the way God is presenting his truth. We all know by now that every word, every letter, every verse number and even the order of verses is precisely chosen, measured and is a part of a very complicated mathematical structure. Our vision of what makes sense and what doesn't is so limited and needs to be questioned and evaluated all the time.?
The purpose as to why I quoted this is to raise the conscious level of understanding that sometimes to get the message Of Allah we have to obtained it from different parts of the Qur?aan. I personally do not know why you would think all 5 Salaat would have to be mentioned in that verse (245 alone. All you have to do FJ is read those verses that I provided to you and you can clearly see that Allah has mentioned 5 periods to observe Salaat. If you can?t see that, I don?t know what else to say.
Below you FJ have said the following because I have asked you what position that you stand on, 5 or 3 Salaat
?Brother to be honest I like your article but I have not yet decided which side to stand on when it comes to observing salaat. Brother with this question and the way you sometime behave I feel like you are trying to force your decision... I hope you are not counting how many of us accepted your explanation.?
It is very clear that you FJ have developed preconceived ideas as to why I have asked you that question. There are many reasons why I may ask that question and of course I will not waist my time listing all the reasons but for one just to give you an insight-sometimes it helps me to know where a person is at in terms of this heated debate, whether they believe in 5 or 3 or if they are in the middle and don?t know because just a little piece of information like that can help me understand what angle or route I should take in answering some one?s questions or respond to their challenges etc. So I hope that you can understand something as elementary as that.
You have said this
?I have been reading everything I can and am trying to follow the best and that is because I do not speak Arabic and thus am dependend on your explanations.?
FJ I have used Arabic in my original rebuttal entitled ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory? but to be truthful with you, this subject does not take Arabic knowledge to know something simple as to whether or not Allah revealed 5 or 3 Salaat in the Qur?aan. I personally think that there are other things people need to remove in order for them to see the clear evidence or truth of this subject matter and its not Arabic. As the late great Ahmed Deedat use to tell the Christians ?remove the spiritual blinders? and then you will see. It amazes me to see how this subject 5 or 3 Salaat is only an issue among Progressive Muslims. We Muslims all over the world whether we follow Qur?aan alone or the traditionalist know that Allah has prescribed 5 Salaat in the Qur?aan. To us this subject matter is clear as day light itself?
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/grabbingforstraws.htm
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/wakaszeehlatifdebate.htm
Salaam
Peace,
FJ -
Peace be upon you all,
Enquirer, thank you for the kind words. I am through the "mini trial" now and have gotten my balance back.
FJ and ProGod, sorry to delay the thread just one more post because I see both of you trying to get Al Khidr to respond to your questions but I need to address one last comment regarding Physical attacks being worse that verbal attacks.
(2191) says that oppression/persecution/treason is worse than murder.
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Salaam enquirer
You have said this
?I would like to know the ages and real-life experiences that these characters have, before i respect their off the cuff,conditioned,self aggrandising,insecure and defensive posturing....?
and
?I would like to see mr khidr and miss zainab step into the real world,and try to go to their local hood and see how far this hidding behind the computer mentality would take them when face to face with reality....?
First of all enquirer, who do you think you are to request Zainab and my age and our experience? You are no authority that we respect and we are definitely not foolish enough to put our personal life and business out in the matrix (internet). We are not here to win any brownie points or be approved by no body and that includes you enquire. All you need to know is that you are dealing with two highly intelligent Muslims who declare LA ILAHA ILLA ALLAH and fear/tremble at the mention of no man but Allah; we only recognize Allah as our MASTER who we bow and submit to unconditionally and also that we are two Muslims who has brought this subject ?3 Salaat Theory? to the Progressive Muslims head on, which none of them including you can?t refute and that is a CHALLENGE. Our age and experience has no cause and effect to the level of knowledge that we are bringing. It is only TRUTH that is the weight of measurement and not age, experience nor gender because TRUTH supersedes those artificial barriers. Any body can claim that they are from the hood and play the tough guy role and as a matter of fact those are usually the fakes or the-want-a-be?s. Those who are rooted in the communities, knowledge of self, the Deen do not need to play the tough guy role and talking about how they will punch someone in the mouth sitting in front of their computer alone, cyber space across from everybody. Enquirer who is fooling who?
You have said this
?And really,who cares of two,three,four five or ten salat/prayer a day.....Just do whatever works for you practically?
You sound like those shuffling Muslims who believes that you can just do what ever you want in Deen Allah (Allah?s prescribed way of life). On the other hand Muslims like my self and Zainab believe that we do not submit to ourselves, we believe that there is a LAW from the Most High for believers to submit to His WILL and ORDER and His prescribed way of life that Huwa (Allah) created for us. So with that in mind, we know that Salaat is not du'aa but Salaat is a prescribed form of worship and Islaam is not something or a system that you decide what and how you want to observe Salaat. Salaat is prescribed and there is a certain way of observing it and one of them is to observe 5 Salaat and not 3 like some Progressive Muslims do. I would like to provide this link that addresses the importance of observing 5 Salaat a day as it is prescribed by Allah Most Glorified And Exalted
http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/practices/salat/importance_of_five_times.html
ISLAAM is not about what ever works for you. In ISLAAM a Muslim believes in submitting their entire will in PEACE to the will of Allah unconditionally and so we (Musims) follow the prescribed way that our Creator has laid it down for us to follow and not our own wishes and desires, enquirer its a BIG difference!
Salaam
Peace all. I just want to state that i understand and respect what brother idol-free said to khidr...This is the real world,...kyle did not seem to threaten khidr,but was just saying how his feelings would be,as a result of his philadelphia upbringing,if khidr was very disrespectful to him in person...Note kyle said he hoped he would transcend that negative emotion... I see others trying to intellectualise this discussion away from reality and into fairyland....I would like to see mr khidr and miss zainab step into the real world,and try to go to their local hood and see how far this hidding behind the computer mentality would take them when face to face with reality....I honestly feel that some posters are just eloquent insulters and like to win their fairyland debates...I would like to know the ages and real-life experiences that these characters have, before i respect their off the cuff,conditioned,self aggrandising,insecure and defensive posturing....Some folks got a lot of real-living,de-brainwashing and soul-searching to do.....
And really,who cares of two,three,four five or ten salat/prayer a day.....Just do whatever works for you practically.....Why the need for mass-produced,farm processed,monopolised,one size fits all soloutions.....? And how well do these peoples salats/rituals/prayers actually work,when their minds are still fuzzed in illusions,away from reality,and the manners are lacking....
When i see posters like these,i wonder what psycholgical condition they are in,clinging to illusions to make themselves feel superior,or more secure,then trying to impose their suspect understandings on everybody else,or trying to belittle others REAL-LIFE research....Like spoilt children.......ps; idolfree; just walk away from this non-sense and dont upset your peaceful state of mind,just view these people as being like little children being mischievious,dont let these ignorant people draw you in to mindless debates that may upset you,and lessen your positive energy...I have confidence that you will transcend this 'mini trial',im sure in the hood these folks wouldnt even look in your direction....'Sticks and stones may break my bones,but names will never hurt me'....In the grand scale of things what matters (as you well know.) is your reaction/response to outside events,and your reaction being positive,beneficial and having good consequences.....I look forward to your great posts,and very much appreciate your 'real-life' input on many threads......Keep it real...... handshake muscle bravo yay group
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Salaam FJ
Now you have said this
"I do not see any Salat during this INTERMINGLING, DO YOU?"
I have read your post and for one you are dealing with someone who is very skillful in debate and I will leave it at that point. Now I want to ask you this because I mapped out 5 Salaat already in the Qur'aan and anybody can choose to accept it or reject it. But I would like for you to fine tune your argument here and your strategic motives behind your argument you think you are attempting to bring forth and my question is to you
From your eyes and perception FJ if you said that you do not see Salaat during any time of that intermingling from that one verse you highlighted then FJ I want to know what type of conclusions are you drawing or arriving at usinig that form a logic? Can you please answer that question?
Salaam
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Peace zainab, al-khidr
zainab - do you feel personnaly attacked ? I was adressing idolfree and al-khidr and their communication problem.
Now ido i live in a civilized world ? no i don't consider the world around me as civilized. If you knew some more about laws, name calling is an offense in most "civilized" countries and about the attacks emananting from the net... i don't need to check in order to know that these came from people who didn't know how to discuss properly and politely in the first place.al-khidr if zainab put me any place it is "her" place and "so-called" elke is my real name. Concerning my intellectual and analytical capacities, thanks god i don't rely on people such as you in order to know both my limits and abilities.
Now to the salat theory who told you i defend three salat anyway ? I also never called myself progressive muslim. Whats your problem ? Go back to school and get some proper coaching on constructive discussion. If you were at least reading correctly, you'd have understood that i adressed you and idolfree in my post above.Now i'm out of this dispute, cause i dont usually dispute with people - i just hit them ;D
lk
I don't care a rat's tail for your personal attacks .. so even if I did feel I was personally attacked, it couldn't have been more insignificant for me. After all, apart from personal attacks you guys have got nothing else left in your pockets. You've been routed at every front. Admit it or not, again makes little difference. So, you might as well have some fun and exhaust all your 'personal attacks.'
But that's hardly the point. What's important is We're peaceful folks. Therefore, no more 'negotiations' with supporters of violence and massive online terror!
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I would like to see mr khidr and miss zainab step into the real world,and try to go to their local hood and see how far this hidding behind the computer mentality would take them when face to face with reality....I honestly feel that some posters are just eloquent insulters and like to win their fairyland debates...I would like to know the ages and real-life experiences that these characters have, before i respect their off the cuff,conditioned,self aggrandising,insecure and defensive posturing....Some folks got a lot of real-living,de-brainwashing and soul-searching to do.....
This is what I call a celebrity clown rotfl It was a somewhat dull evening, so thanks for the laugh ..
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peace
mods, can you clean this place up? I think there are too many off topic posts and they are a distraction from the actual discussion of salat that was going on about a few centuries ago.
offtopic offtopic offtopic offtopic offtopic offtopic offtopic offtopic
peacep.s. going back on topic, I find the 2 salat "theory" the most convincing.
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Selaam Al-khidr
It is very interesting to see how skillfully you manage to avoid answering my question and ask me a question in return! Why brother Al-khidr, why? Is it hard for you to answer that simple question?
And you said this
I have read your post and for one you are dealing with someone who is very skillful in debate and I will leave it at that point.
What are you trying to achieve brother Al-khidr? Are you trying to scare me that it is better for me to quit debating because no matter what you are going to be the winer at the end? Is this what you want 'winning and only winning'? I admit I am not skillful in debates, but no one can stop me from asking questions.
I leave it at this point as you just did because I see you do not want to answer that simple quesiton.
From your eyes and perception FJ if you said that you do not see Salaat during any time of that intermingling from that one verse you highlighted then FJ I want to know what type of conclusions are you drawing or arriving at usinig that form a logic? Can you please answer that question?
How do you expect me to answer this question when you failed to answer mine?
The verse is very clear "Other than these times, it is not wrong for you and them to intermingle with one another" It is very simple, we can play, laugh, eat, converse, work together and so on except these three times the two of which are Salaat times.
Peace
FJ -
Salaam
The 3 salaat Theory has been defeated. The only way Progressive Muslims can handle defeat is by talking about how they will punch some one in the mouth, whine or cry about Al Khidr's approach, make personal statements but they can't intellectual fight a battle, they can't use Qur'aan alone in this debate. This debate been over a long time ago.
FJ that question you are asking is weak if I was Al Khidr I wouldn't waste my time. You are trying just like every one here to still leave a crack in the door to believe in that defeated theory of 3 salaat. Why don't you admit that you are in a blind way try to say that there is no intermingling so there for it sounds like you want to conclude that there must not be any more Salaat. What you need to do is read the Qur'aan with an open mind and check out the verses Al Khidr has provided you. Give it up this debate is over its been defeated a long time ago. I looked at every single one of those many English translations and they all make it clear that it is referring to 5 salaat periods.
Al Khidr answered all your questions and responded to every ones questions in this thread which most was not related to the topic and u can't answer that question. We know why.
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Selaam all,
no_shirk qoute
FJ that question you are asking is weak if I was Al Khidr I wouldn't waste my time.
Weak?! Where is the weakness? ??? Well, I can see that that question is causing you some trouble and that type of response is from one who has no answer. Neither you nor brother Al-khidr is wasting his time in answering such a simple question. Sincerely, just have a look at the verse and ponder on what it says and then tell me I am wrong... "Other than these times, it is not wrong for you and them to intermingle with one another". You see it says other than these times we can either go and intermingle with them or they can come and intermingle with us. Tell me is it hard to answer this question?. For me it isn't because I am not trying to complicate things here, but for you it seems to be a very hard one.
Why don't you admit that you are in a blind way try to say that there is no intermingling so there for it sounds like you want to conclude that there must not be any more Salaat.
If you ment to say that since there is intermingling between these three times than there is no more Salaat then why don't you admit that that is what you yourself see or at least tell me what I am missing? Is it hard to believe that or you are just turning a blind eye to a verse as simple and easy to understand as that?
I ask everyone here in this forum to bring an understanding of this very simple verse "Other than these times, it is not wrong for you and them to intermingle with one another". What do you brothers and sisters think the verse means with intermingling here?
no_shirk next time please don't just step in and say, 'if I was Al-khidr I would not wast my time' but be patient and at least try to give some reasons or another understanding of the verse other than that simple one.
Salaam
FJ -
Peace be upon you FJ,
Dont expect your valid question to be answered. It is clear to the objective reader that the verse goes from "dawn salaat" to a point where another suppossed salaat is suppossed to occur, but clearly does not mention, then to the ending pointy which is "dusk salaat". Why would the God use salaat at as markers for two of the three times? Compared with verses 1778 and 11114 we can see that there are two salaat prescribed per day. The times when the day merges with night, symbolic of the Consciousness and Subconcious coming together, in order for us to program our subconcios(nafs) and bring forth purification(zakaat) so that the God can manifest through our vehicles Its divine attributes.
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Peace zainab and khidr. Im afraid you two have demonstrated your delusions regarding how you seem to think you are some kind of sacred,sincere,superior muslims... (which implies other arent...) It seems you have very little concept of how to differentiate between a poster trying to discuss with you,and your feeling attacked and undermined....Which shows how immature and insecure your on-line mentality is...
I noticed you couldnt answer a basic question on your age,life-experience etc...You then showed your paranoia by claiming you didnt want to put out you personal life and business on the net/matrix....Hey mister,i asked some general questions,not your address,favourite restaurant or your bank pin number......Anyway you carry on with your fantasies.....other people have reality and real-life to deal with......
ps; how do you two do salat,because it dont seem to be making you humble,relaxed or receptive to the truth.....?
pps; sorry to phoenix and others for going off-topic....forgive me waleed.... -
Peace be upon you FJ,
I have bits and pieces all over. I used to live in this section of free minds. Rather than point you to many differnt places, I will try tp write up a small article between now and this weekend. My overall understanding is that salaat is the process of programming the Nafs(subconcious), which is the ENERGY part of being that is hidden from man. I is his garden that he must tend to by means of salaat. And with much patience, the God's help will come, metaphorized as good fruit.
Salaat and Zakaat are joined together often to show us that our goal in programming is to purify the "garden" subconcious, just as we tend the garden to remove weeds so that our flowers/fruits can grow.
Article coming soon.
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Salaam FJ
O yes your question indeed is weak, you really need to read that verse 2458.
Qur'aan 2458
O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances-before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. Allah thus clarifies the revelations for you. Allah is Omoniscient, Most Wise.Your attempted to establish 3 Salaat here in this one verse alone is weak and keep in mind that no one who believs in 3 Salaat like you have not responded to your question here, I wonder why? People do take verses out of context to promote their belief. I doubt very seriously that Khidr cannot answer it what u don't see is how invalid your point that you are trying to bring home. Besides you never answered. Brother Khidr answered several of your questions and assumptions, I have read your other questions and his responses. Example you faslely concluded that he is trying to see how many people he can win over because he asked you a simple question like where are you at on 3 or 5 Salaat. He asked you a question about that verse and you won't answer. Just face it the 3 Salaat madness has been defeated, there is no more hope. I can clearly see 5 Salaat in all English translations and I wonder why you can't
(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr) given in 11114, 2458
(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuhr), given in 1778 and 3018
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr), given in 2238
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib), given in 11114
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha), given in 2458Read any English translation and it will be clear that those verses are the 5 Salaat periods. Some people no matter what will never see.
Selaam all,
no_shirk qoute
FJ that question you are asking is weak if I was Al Khidr I wouldn't waste my time.
Weak?! Where is the weakness? ??? Well, I can see that that question is causing you some trouble and that type of response is from one who has no answer. Neither you nor brother Al-khidr is wasting his time in answering such a simple question. Sincerely, just have a look at the verse and ponder on what it says and then tell me I am wrong... "Other than these times, it is not wrong for you and them to intermingle with one another". You see it says other than these times we can either go and intermingle with them or they can come and intermingle with us. Tell me is it hard to answer this question?. For me it isn't because I am not trying to complicate things here, but for you it seems to be a very hard one.
Why don't you admit that you are in a blind way try to say that there is no intermingling so there for it sounds like you want to conclude that there must not be any more Salaat.
If you ment to say that since there is intermingling between these three times than there is no more Salaat then why don't you admit that that is what you yourself see or at least tell me what I am missing? Is it hard to believe that or you are just turning a blind eye to a verse as simple and easy to understand as that?
I ask everyone here in this forum to bring an understanding of this very simple verse "Other than these times, it is not wrong for you and them to intermingle with one another". What do you brothers and sisters think the verse means with intermingling here?
no_shirk next time please don't just step in and say, 'if I was Al-khidr I would not wast my time' but be patient and at least try to give some reasons or another understanding of the verse other than that simple one.
Salaam
FJ -
Salaam enquirer
I disagree with your points here. Age and experience has nothing to do with truth or falsehood. to me that is a cheap shot. Also to your post is off topic. Their age and experience is not the subject. The debate is 3 or 5 Salaat and thats it. when will u return back to the topic? I do not put my personal life in forums like this it serves no purpose. This is all i see from the people who believes in 3 salaat theory. All I see is talking about bunching some one in the mouth and we have u talking about what age and the experience Zainab and Khidr has, some people do say they do not like khidr's approach. I see peronal comments, assumptions. Myself and others who followed this debate are saying when are the guys and women who believe in 3 salaat theory going to provide evidence in the Qur'aan? That is the real question brother Al Khidr already provided his evidence and they are listed in the 3 links.
Salaam
Peace zainab and khidr. Im afraid you two have demonstrated your delusions regarding how you seem to think you are some kind of sacred,sincere,superior muslims... (which implies other arent...) It seems you have very little concept of how to differentiate between a poster trying to discuss with you,and your feeling attacked and undermined....Which shows how immature and insecure your on-line mentality is...
I noticed you couldnt answer a basic question on your age,life-experience etc...You then showed your paranoia by claiming you didnt want to put out you personal life and business on the net/matrix....Hey mister,i asked some general questions,not your address,favourite restaurant or your bank pin number......Anyway you carry on with your fantasies.....other people have reality and real-life to deal with......
ps; how do you two do salat,because it dont seem to be making you humble,relaxed or receptive to the truth.....?
pps; sorry to phoenix and others for going off-topic....forgive me waleed....