Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory
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selam "al-khidr"
the "mathematical structure" of salaat has already been exposed, which proves that it is non-significant.
For verification, visit http//www.quran-islam.org/178.htmlAs Salaamu Alaykum Arnold
In regards to your opinion in terms of my approach my response is found here posted Jan. 6, 2006, where you and I had our first encounter
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5711.30
You may not like what I say but you can?t deny it and that?s the real issue at hand, not personal opinions on styles of approach. I have done extensive research on the ?3 Salaat Theory? and you could not intellectually refute any of the arguments and I think that says a lot. Anybody is welcome to bring forth arguments that is how we learn but Arnold with all your statements (opinions), you as of the present can?t bring forth any? But that does not surprise me because you on the other hand are confused on whether it?s 5 or 3 Salaat and that?s fine I?m not placing judgment there, we are all human. I do not have all the knowledge, I?m just as human as everybody else, but what I do know is that there is 5 Salaat times or periods in the Holy Qur?aan and you cannot intellectually refute any of my arguments. Below is your statement
?But i do need more reference if it is 3 or 5 using an OBJECTIVE mind, which i believe you haven't used.?
In your response Arnold you have presented opinion after opinion or statement after statement, which is again different from FACTS/EVIDENCE. We as humans all have opinions and that?s cool but as long as we understand the difference between the two. I will wait for you to remove or transcend your statement or opinion with FACTS or EVIDENCE to refute my arguments that I stand on or perhaps your research may compliment the 5 Salaat position, which Allah authorized in the Qur?aan and not 3.
You have made a claim that I was not opened minded and that I was bias, etc., etc. and drew conclusions before I done my research. Below is your statement
?You were already biased when you wrote this, as you weren't open minded, but just wanted to 'prove' something you were already convinced of, so you were not objective?
Well again Arnold, we have another tale or opinion from you. I challenge you, provide evidence in my research to back your statement up or opinion up above? I have been exposed to this issue quite sometime and I decided to challenge the notion of the ?3 Salaat Theory? and we all have that right, and I presented my evidence in this forum and many other forums and areas on the internet before I posted on the Progressive Muslim Forum. The evidence of my research exist and it is open for any body to dissect it and pick it apart and refute my arguments, if its possible. But again Arnold at the present all you can introduce is your assumptions/opinions/statements. My arguments stand on the 5 Salaat position. I have received many positive responses by Muslims around the world concerning my research.
You have said this
?As for the mathematical code inside the prayer, this can be refuted already, as there is a whole mechanic inside the Quran already, and how could have people before the discovery of the code have verified the true salaat? Before the code, there wasn't complete blind faith in the Quran as the concistency of the rhyme and the science in it gave enough reference to base the faith in the Quran on?
Arnold you didn?t read my entire research or maybe you must have over looked some aspects of my research. When I proved that there are 5 Salaat times in the Qur?aan, thus my arguments were not diminished to the Divine Mathematical Code of the Qur?aan. I proved that there are 5 Salaat instead of 3 using various forms of evidence, logic, reasoning, I also proved with clear evidence that the Egyptians observed 5 Salaat and this was before Abraham and Muhammad was born. This evidence from the Egyptians is well known and NO hadiyth were written during that time. Salaat was well intact and well established and Allah preserved it. When there was distortion of Salaat Allah went out of His way to address the distortions and correct them. If there was originally 3 Salaat and this became distorted over time then why didn?t Allah address this in the Qur?aan and restore it back to 3 Salaat like how Allah restored Wudu and the tone of voice (in the Qur?aan) when we do Salaat. In my research I have went into far greater detail in this area. I would advice you to concentrate in these two of my sections and you will clearly see that the proponents of the 3 Salaat Theory has no bases or logic in the Qur?aan. This section starts under the category ?Islaam Is A Prescribed Way Of Life? and for the evidence that the Egyptians (Nubians) of antiquity observed 5 Salaat re-examine the section under ?The Nubian Egyptian Empire And Islaam? Abraham in the Qur?aan was performing Salaat. Salaat was intact and well established. I have proven beyond doubt that there are 5 Salaat and not 3 and the mathematical code was sound additional arguments, which was again something that you cannot refute.
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EDIT OF MY EARLIER POST
Check these out http//www.usn2161.net/prayerproofs.html
and http//www.usn2161.net/prayermethod.htmlThe 5 prayers are given mathematically. This does not just include the units but also the words and so on. Although I thought that there are only 3 salaat mentioned in the Quran, I am beginning to think that there are 5. Another interesting fact is that although Jews pray 3x per day in on regular days, they pray 5x on Yom Kippur, which is very interesting.
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Salam alaikoum,
peace to all.
Dear progressive1993
your links to prove there are 5 salats doesn't look to me very scientific let's say. I mean these people are playing with numbers to prove something they decided. It has been proved if you change the order of rakaat you get the same results!!!! Further more they use salat names that are not in Al Quran e.g. asr, maghreb etc..
Question
Don't you think, things regarding SALAT which is an important practice in islam should be clear!
So keeping that in mind, Al Quran clearly mentioned 3 SALAT. I mean why will ALLAH mention 3 clearly and leave 2 a bit vague? Also, the timing is clear, and easy to follow.This is my personnal understanding, seeking the truth but ALLAH knows better.
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Peace, Herbman,
I know the article at quran-islam.org about the switching the number of rakat and still getting mutiples of 19 and so on. I need to check the infos further. I was for a while believing what you are believing right now about 3 salaat being at dawn, sunset and night (check my post at "my arguement for 3 salaat". They are giving good proofs though and RK also said its 5. Furthermore, the Muslims have been doing the 5 salaat ever since. (except some islamilis, etc.)
We need to look for more evidence and grasp the meaning of the verses on the quran a little bit better, such as 1778 - does it refer to noon or sunset? if its noon then there are 5, if not then there are 3.
But remember the mutawator sunna of it being 5. The rakat system (although proven that it can be changed and still have multiples of 19, etc.) is one factor which makes me think there are 5 salaat, since without a set number of rakats, there wouldnt be unity in mosques. (think about it). Maybe the rakats were always 2 (as stated in hadiths) and then changed. NOTE the first 2 or only 2 rakats of Fajr, Maghrib and Isha are recited aloud... maybe this could prove the 3 salaat theory. The maths proves the opposite, though. again, i invite others to discuss this topic more thoruoghly, since it is an important one.
anyways,
peace.Salam alaikoum,
peace to all.
Dear progressive1993
your links to prove there are 5 salats doesn't look to me very scientific let's say. I mean these people are playing with numbers to prove something they decided. It has been proved if you change the order of rakaat you get the same results!!!! Further more they use salat names that are not in Al Quran e.g. asr, maghreb etc..
Question
Don't you think, things regarding SALAT which is an important practice in islam should be clear!
So keeping that in mind, Al Quran clearly mentioned 3 SALAT. I mean why will ALLAH mention 3 clearly and leave 2 a bit vague? Also, the timing is clear, and easy to follow.This is my personnal understanding, seeking the truth but ALLAH knows better.
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Peace,
Salat does not involve bowing and prostration. Salat is the act of incense burning. Please read my article titled "Salat is none other than Incense Burning".
Peace,
K.Vivekanandan
And Zakat is freezing?!
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rotfl
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As Salaamu Alaykum To All Muslims
There has been an increasing divide among Muslims who follow Qur'aan ALONE on the amount of times we are suppose to perform Salaat. A small group or fraction of Muslims teach that Allah only authorized 3 Salaat times in the Qur'aan while the rest of the Muslims who follow Qur'aan ALONE and the entire Muslim world teach that Allah authorized 5 Salaat times or periods in the Qur'aan. We want all Muslims (no matter what persuasion you come from) to know that TAWHIYD has completed their extensive research on this heated subject and have laid to rest the FINAL ARGUMENT. We have dissected the "3 Salaat Theory" and intellectually DESTROYED it, beyond doubt. Visit the link below to examine yourself
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm
Salaam
Slm, Al-Khidr,
At first when I read your article, I thought...dude...this is BS, but after a few more looks I was convinced that there are 5 salaat in the Quran.
Thanks, man.
Advice to the others look at the article with an open minds, otherwise you will not really understand it just like me at the first time, because i was too stuck and convinced with the 3 salaat theory.
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Peace to all,
Pray God to guide us, we all looking for truth.
the 5 prayers supporters, declare the following
(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr) given in 11114, 2458
(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuhr), given in 1778 and 3018
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr), given in 2238
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib), given in 11114
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha), given in 2458Now one question is rising , does 3018 really talk about the Zuhr prayer?
3017
So (give) glory to Allah, when ye reach eventide and when ye rise in the morning;
3018
In 3017 verse start by FA SUBHANA, God commands to do smth in this case to glorify him
while in 3018 WA LAHU AL HAMD means to him is ALHAMD in the heavens and on earth; and in the late afternoon and when the day begins to decline.Let's see what the other verses says
(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr) given in 11114 start with AQIMO SALATA it is a command , 2458 refer to the prayer and then there is no ambiguity.
(2)Zuhr see comment above
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr), given in 2238In 238 verse start by HAFIDHU, it is a command "Preserve\Take care etc", salat AL WUSTA--> it is a command what ever salat AL WASTA is.
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib), given in 11114 same as (1)
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha), given in 2458 same as point 1 (1) refer to the prayer and then there is no ambiguityConclusion
to my humble understanding and seeking protection to God against Satan the bannished, I do understand that everytime God in the Quran command us to pray, the verses clearly start with a command while 3018 is not a command.
Please give me feedback, clarify, help, together we will find the right path.
Peace
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Salaam all, herbman
verse 3017
So (give) glory to Allah, when ye reach eventide and when ye rise in the morning;
I would interpret it as glory be to God....
But that's not the problem, as one can understand it the way you put it. It's the phrase of which is an expression meaning "all the time". It's still in use in the expression " " (morning and evening) and it means all the day; all the time.My argument for 2 salaats is verse 2458 where the fajr and 3ishaa salat are mentioned by name during a whole day of an average person. No other slaat is ever mentioned by name in the whole quraan.
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There is no exposing the 3 salaat "theory". Gods (sunna) does not change. (1777) And in judaism, and christianity, you will also find 3 prayers.
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Samia,
I think you make a good point in pointing out that 2458 only mentions two salaahs, if there were three, then surely it would have been given a mention in this verse.
It is becoming increasingly apparent to me that "wustaa" need not be exclusively interpreted as a preposition, and a temporal one at that.
My understanding of salah, in my studies, is far from resolved.
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Peace all, Samia
In a previous post I've put this
Salam to all,about Salat AL WUSTA what do you think about this verse 629
Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! when the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic) that is best for you if ye but knew!
This can only be during the day, not al fajr neither at sun down it has to be somewhere in the middle.
This is to reject the assertion of 2 prayers a day!Allah best knows
I know we are talking about the congregational prayer occuring during the day.
So for you the congregational prayer is an extra prayer?????
Peace
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So for you the congregational prayer is an extra prayer?????
Peace
Salaam herbman, all
Fajr and isha salats are to be performed in solitude without the person engaged in them being interrupted. This is the opposite of the congregational salaat, where it's done with others, during the day and it should interrupt business. I do not think it has to be done everyday, (and interrupt business everyday), but on the day of gathering. So, yes, it's an extra salaat (not daily, if this is what you mean). -
Peace all, Samia
In a previous post I've put this
Salam to all,about Salat AL WUSTA what do you think about this verse 629
Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! when the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic) that is best for you if ye but knew!
This can only be during the day, not al fajr neither at sun down it has to be somewhere in the middle.
This is to reject the assertion of 2 prayers a day!Allah best knows
I know we are talking about the congregational prayer occuring during the day.
So for you the congregational prayer is an extra prayer?????
Peace
I agree with you that this disproves the 2 salaat theory, since this (to me) CLEARLY points out a prayer being during the day.
Peace
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Peace everyone,
Fajr and isha salats are to be performed in solitude without the person engaged in them being interrupted. This is the opposite of the congregational salaat, where it's done with others, during the day and it should interrupt business.
Evidence from the qur'aan to support this statement will be appreciated. This is completely false as far as my understanding of these salaats is concerned. Both these salaats can be performed alone or in congregation.
"On day of gathering" and "cease all business" in 629 does not mean "during the daytime".
In many countries many businesses are ROUTINELY conducted until late at night so "day of gathering" and "cease all business" in 629 does not necessarily mean daytime. The 3isha salaat can interrupt the business being conducted at dusk. "Yawm" does not mean only daytime but refers to the whole 24 hour day or a time period as used in the qur'aan. The word for daytime is "nahaar" as used in the qur'aan.
I do not think it has to be done everyday, (and interrupt business everyday), but on the day of gathering. So, yes, it's an extra salaat (not daily, if this is what you mean).
No, it does not necessarily mean an extra salaat. That is just a personal conjecture. I am conducting business on the day of gathering, and during dusk I hear the call to the 3isha salaat; I should cease my business and hasten to the salaat. This is what I hear in 629.
It seems very odd that God would mention "yawm al-jum'a" and then not give us any clue as to when that day is. In my understanding He does tell us which day is the day of gathering/assembly and that is when all mankind gathers/assembles for hajj. Please see the following post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387
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Salaam all, herbman
verse 3017
So (give) glory to Allah, when ye reach eventide and when ye rise in the morning;
I would interpret it as glory be to God....
But that's not the problem, as one can understand it the way you put it. It's the phrase of which is an expression meaning "all the time". It's still in use in the expression " " (morning and evening) and it means all the day; all the time.My argument for 2 salaats is verse 2458 where the fajr and 3ishaa salat are mentioned by name during a whole day of an average person. No other slaat is ever mentioned by name in the whole quraan.
I agree. It says Glory to God and not glorify God although it could be understood that way but thats not what it says.
However the 2 salat is not necessarily fajr and evening as there are verses that says to pray during the ends of the day till nightfall. Fajr could be the begining of one the ends and evening is the end of the other end. Between them is a long time. So even if you take 2 salats, it does not mean fajr and Isha, it could be morning and afternoon. The verse about the two ends of the day tells more since lays what are the times of the salat while the verse about fajr and isha simply says how the prophet and his companions were performing at the time. There is nothing that say it has to be at those specific time.
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I take it as fajr and isha, being the only necessary prayers, and that these are the ends of the day. I also take it that the prayer times extend into the darkness of night that approximate these two times. So, night before sunrise, sunrise twilight and sunrise is the time for fajr. And as the sunsets, sunset twilight and the night directly after sunset is the time for 'Isha. That's how I see it.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
I take it as fajr and isha, being the only necessary prayers, and that these are the ends of the day. I also take it that the prayer times extend into the darkness of night that approximate these two times. So, night before sunrise, sunrise twilight and sunrise is the time for fajr. And as the sunsets, sunset twilight and the night directly after sunset is the time for 'Isha. That's how I see it.
Thank you for this understanding. This would explain the usage of "zulafan min al-layl" in 11114 meaning 3 or more parts of the night
2 parts for isha = sunset twilight + darkness of night close to sunset twilight
2 parts for fajr = sunrise twilight + preceding darkness close to the sunrise twilightIn addition to that, the two ends of the daytime have to be the ones approximating the near parts of the night. The usage of "atraaf al-nahaar" in 20130 implies there are 3 or more edges of the daytime and 11114 clarifies which two edges of the daytime; the ones approximating the near parts of the night.
Peace and The God bless.