Why didn't God preserve the previous scriptures?
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peace waleed
But that doesn't seem fair, does it? that people before us get a book that is corruptible, and we get a book that is invincible.
The book we have, the book itself is invincible. BUT there are loads and loads of translations that are very similar to the bible (distorting the message). The people who were given the Quran were tested just like the people of the previous scriptures. There are fabrications out there. And most people w/ the quran still follow those fabrications. So neither party is really better off. Because they both fell into the same trap.
You maybe asking Why did God allow these fabrications?
Because God is the most fair. Is it fair for him to stop these people from exercising their freedom of will? How can God judge them fairly then? If he stops certain people from exercising their free will, isn't it un-fair to the other parties? That is why God allows evil to happen, because it's fair. What you do you are accounted for. We get two signs. The good and evil. If we follow good, we follow God.....
And BTW the christians who invented trinity fell astray because of their scholars. And after that people just followed whatever their parents did (how many times is that excuse mentioned in the quran) If they had studed the bible itself they'd know Jesus preached a different message.
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Mankind was obviously not born into a sophisticated society. It started at a very primative stage, as far as we can tell they followed simple rules and had very simple lives, e.g. hunter gatherers. Eventually as the science of agriculture became more widespread and villages began to be formed with stable families and tribes, society became more sophisticated. Eventually these small villages would go on to form cities and nations and then eventually these nations would meet and clash with each other. Each of these steps in society had their own unique challenges and circumstances, and each nation had its messenger sent from Allah with guidance/scripture. These guidances helped to move mankind in the proper direction for the development of society and mankind at large. Think of it as a sculptor who chips away at the marble, slowly shaping it with each strike.
So for a great period of time, these guidances were basically circumstancial and temporary, not meant to be permanent. They were for a specific society for a specific time, and the reason it was done this way was to slowly guide mankind towards the point where society reached enough sophistication and understanding to receive the full and final message. Once that stage was achieved, that message was to be preserved for all people for all time. That message (i.e. Quran) also encompassed many previous teachings but also has teachings beyond the previous ones.
The above should provide a basic framework to understand the real idea behind abrogation. I'll leave it to whoever is interested to research the matter further.
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Depends on how you look at it. I mean, is it fair that some people grow up in militant islamic home, and some grow up encouraged to think for themselves? It's always about what you do with what you've been dealt. The fairness comes in the end.
peace Tay,
I think you're right. At least about the fairness of it. peace
About good ol' Arnie, we talk to eachother on msn, but he's kinda busy these days (apparently). So a PM wouldn't be much good. -
peace
Imran,
I think you misunderstood me. I'm not talking about the corruption of the translations of the Quran, but the book itself. And more importantly, the books that came before it. My question was why weren't the previous books preserved like the quran?Shuaib,
Can you give me an example from the Quran of something that wouldn't work 2000 years ago?
And does this mean that there will be another book in the future? -
phoenix,
i mean this with all due respect, but i only provided a putative explanation.. whoever is interested can research further. this does not mean that the Quran can change because Allah has expressly said He will protect it and the deen is complete now. I'll leave it to the sociologists to figure out the answer to your question, I just dont have the time. I've just provided a model of explanation for the facts at hand. (Of course, your question is loaded since this also greatly depends on how you interpret a verse of the Quran. Certainly, since on this forum there is a tendency to translate things in a metaphysical/philosophical sense that can impact the answer to your question).
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peace Ahmed,
Peace mate
no, fire is not superior than clay or soil.
are u sure?
You can verify that for yourself. Just light a fire, then put some soil over the flame, and you'll see that the flame will die.
LOL bro, you always amaze me with your nice tries
Well and why you want to dumb soil on fire to see what the fire will do to it?, can?t you just put it in a pot on top of the fire?
Well I can distinguish fires using a pile of cotton if I keep slamming the fire with it, or I can use a cup of water quickly
Bro be real, just hang the soil on top of the fire and see for yourself what will happen to it, and after u do that replace the two and put the fire on top of the soil and see what the soil will do to the fire, nothing I tell you, LOL
See water can put the fire down but if you put in a pot on top of the fire, the water will not be able to stand it and will be dismissed (vapour) , LOL
There is no "superior" element or being.
Really, I though Gold is one of the top elements in the chemical chain, well I bet Fire will still melt the Gold and the Gold can do nothing to the fire
Fire is not a seperate thing from soil. Everything is ONE. Everything is energy.
LOL, who said that, Einstein?
I think you are wrong when you say our sense doesn't count. Our ability to think is given to us by God so we can recognize the truth.
Well, we only need to know what Allah want us to know, now you want to know what Allah didn?t want us to know, good luck in your spiritual journey
The thing is, if I ignore my logic, then there is no way for me to know whether what I believe in is true or not.
Well, you only need to believe in Allah, not to know why He didn?t reserve the other scriptures unlike what He did with the last scripture
Our ability to think is what leads us to the truth.
I hope you stay away from conjectures though, this is the warning from Allah to all of us, but it seems you are going on your own journey
If we ignore that, then we are lost.
Sorry, lost what exactly?
And if I'm not mistaken, you are saying that we have to ignore it.
Of course, because Allah didn?t tell us why, now you think there are people out there who will know what Allah never told us about, again good luck with that sort of conjectures
I am not questioning God. I'm questioning what we believe to be God's book.
Really,
Well here is the title of your thread
? Why didn't God preserve the previous scriptures??
now please tell me, are you questioning God or not by the above?
Also your question above has nothing to do with questioning what you believe to be God?s book, because truly you don?t believe in that
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peace ahmed
? Why didn't God preserve the previous scriptures??
now please tell me, are you questioning God or not by the above?
I have wondered this before, not to question God (would never question the Most wise). Because I believe there's a reason God does everything. Since he's in no-need.
But I do believe in every fabric of my being that the Quran is from God. And nothing could prove me otherwise (Unless God wills otherwise)
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peace
are u sure?
yes, I'm sure.
LOL bro, you always amaze me with your nice tries
Well and why you want to dumb soil on fire to see what the fire will do to it?, can?t you just put it in a pot on top of the fire?
Well I can distinguish fires using a pile of cotton if I keep slamming the fire with it, or I can use a cup of water quickly
Bro be real, just hang the soil on top of the fire and see for yourself what will happen to it, and after u do that replace the two and put the fire on top of the soil and see what the soil will do to the fire, nothing I tell you, LOL
See water can put the fire down but if you put in a pot on top of the fire, the water will not be able to stand it and will be dismissed (vapour) , LOL
It might be funny, but it is true. Just light a fire, then bring a bucket of soil and cover the fire with it. If you do it properly, the soil WILL block the oxygen and the fire will die.
Really, I though Gold is one of the top elements in the chemical chain, well I bet Fire will still melt the Gold and the Gold can do nothing to the fire
what chemical chain?
Anyway, you are comparing apples to oranges. Fire is not an element. It is energy released during the reaction of oxygen with another substance. That's what fire is.LOL, who said that, Einstein?
Yes, Einstein did say that. Ever heard of E=MC^2?
Of course, because Allah didn?t tell us why, now you think there are people out there who will know what Allah never told us about, again good luck with that sort of conjectures
I don't believe God is a book. I believe God is everywhere. God talks to us through this world. Without using our own brains, the Quran is nothing, because people can misinterpret it, make the wrong conclusions about it. The Quran is just a book. The reader can make whatever he/she wants of it.
What I don't get it is this, why would God give us a book that doesn't make sense to us unless we FIRST believe it is from God?? Why didn't God preserve the previous scriptures??
now please tell me, are you questioning God or not by the above?
Also your question above has nothing to do with questioning what you believe to be God?s book, because truly you don?t believe in that
It was more of a question for everyone here than God. I just wanted to see what answers I get so I can learn. There are things that I don't understand, and I want to make things clear for myself. And even if I have to question God to follow God, I'll do it.
My question has everything to do with our beliefs. I want to be sure of what I believe, and I believe I have to ask questions to to do that.
Honestly, I mean no offence. I don't mean to attack the Quran, or anything.Also, do you believe the Jinn are made from water? because all living things are made of water?
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now please tell me, are you questioning God or not by the above?
If you were to ask me, I question God because I do no take any knowledge blindly. If a book say so-and-so, I will not accept it just because it says so-and-so.
This does not mean I reject God. I merely question because I want to understand.
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Peace Ahmed and Phoenix,
Okay this which 'element' is superior is borderline crazy! D Guys, discuss something substantial. Phoenix I can feel your pain. Walk away I say
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now please tell me, are you questioning God or not by the above?
If you were to ask me, I question God because I do no take any knowledge blindly. If a book say so-and-so, I will not accept it just because it says so-and-so.
This does not mean I reject God. I merely question because I want to understand.
Fine, consider I asked you
well, those who questions are those who yet to believe, as simple as this, who who donlt question are those who already questioned before they believd then after they submitted they should question any more
if they do then they are not really true believers, would you like to see the Quran verse that tells you that or sort of like that?
cheers
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peace ahmed
Why didn't God preserve the previous scriptures?
now please tell me, are you questioning God or not by the above?
I have wondered this before, not to question God (would never question the Most wise). Because I believe there's a reason God does everything. Since he's in no-need.
But I do believe in every fabric of my being that the Quran is from God. And nothing could prove me otherwise (Unless God wills otherwise)
Thanks mate
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Peace Ahmed and Phoenix,
Okay this which 'element' is superior is borderline crazy! Cheesy Guys, discuss something substantial. Phoenix I can feel your pain. Walk away I say Wink
This is MY thread! I'm staying! )
far out
I'm not going to leave alone
let's punch out bro, LOL
Salam
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ahmed,
i understand where you are coming from, and you feel that to ask a question that relates to how Allah has done something is disrespectful. This idea is borne out of the way that it is disrespectful to question a king for anything he has done, or question a parent for something he/she may have said/done.
But this is not the way that belief in Islam works. Allah never asks us to believe Him in this way, and in fact encourages us to investigate and ask questions. Even the word IMAAN relates to this. It's interesting that IMAAN means to believe in something after it has satisfied and made peace with all of one's senses and understanding... ie through intensive investigation.
those who believe without questioning are like sheep. there is no harm in healthy questions and investigation. One merely has to be careful about understanding the limits of the human mind. It's not like the question is hypothetical about very obscure things... his question is very real and relates to an ACTUAL occurence... previous scriptures were not at all preserved, yet they like the Quran, came from Allah.
There are explanations for phoenix's questions, more than one, and in fact the explanation itself can have great ramifications for one's understanding of Islam. This particular question of his is rather important in understanding the whole concept of nasikh mansookh. If you don't ask questions, your understanding will be shallow, and hence your belief will also be superficial and flimsy.
If one believe's something blindly, that is not imaan.
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ahmed,
i understand where you are coming from, and you feel that to ask a question that relates to how Allah has done something is disrespectful.
Peace bro
I don?t really think that questioning Allah is disrespectful, I guess there should be a fine line in what to ask and how to ask and why to ask?, this fine line is very easily determined by a true believer in Allah, this is due to the fact a true believer should know what Allah is all about
But what I found that some ask very silly questions that has absolutely no merit whatsoever, if they are not believers then this is fine, I expect a non believer to ask zillions of silly questions but to claim that you are a believer then come and ask similar questions to those who know nothing about Allah?, this is where I?m puzzled
The way also they put their questions is like they got the Quran red handed or sort of, this is where the disrespect is coming from because they claim to have believed in it already, some even call themselves Muslims while they don?t believe that Mohammad existed for real
It is easy to say that they believe in Allah and the last day but do you think those who ask those silly questions really believed?
The problem here is coming from two angles
- It causes confusion to many yet to be solid believers when they see those who claim to be solid believers asking these silly questions, the Quran actually gave us a close example to that
101- O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
102- Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.
(101)
(102)-> While the above may be related to some old incidents during the prophet time as the hadith is telling us, I still see the above verses apply now and will apply for the future generations, it only apply on those who call themselves ?BELIEVERS?, see how the verse started ? O ye who believe!?, then the warning followed ? Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.?, now this is really ironic, things that if made plain, will cause trouble, now how plain to answer these sorts of questions by saying ?Allah does what He wants??, or how plain to tell them ?Allah actions can?t be questioned?, both answers were stated by Allah plainly in the Quran, and yet it causes trouble to them, why is that?, aren?t we dealing with a God?, who can squash us any time without even telling us?, imagine He is an unjust god, ?God forbids?, and He decided to boil us in hot water every bloody day then replace our skins and the cycle goes on, can we do anything about it?, again we can?t because He is a powerful God, humans even can do nothing when dealing with a powerful human who may be torturing them and they can?t do nothing, our God is not like that, our God is explaining to us the fine line that we should follow, that fine line is simply we ask questions and we only look for plain answers in the Quran, these questions must be related to Allah for sure, not a question on how to fix a car, the fine line was stated clearly to those believers who claim to have believed in the Quran ? Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.?, how plain is this bro?
If the question relates to Allah like the question in this thread, and there is no answer in the Quran by Allah then why we take answers from humans?, I stress, the question relates to Allah and His actions
This is where some believers will be vulnerable to Iblis and his progeny, he can easily exploit this vulnerability and they end up like those believers before us, then on that account they loose their faith , this is Iblis main objective, that all of us loose our faith, only those Mukhlasin believers won?t fall preys to Iblis clever assaults when exploiting this vulnerability because that was Allah promise to us and He clearly told him that only those Mukhlasin believers that He can?t touch
This will take us to the second angle of the problem
2) This is where the doubt will come to those who keep asking these questions, despite many answers by those Mukhlasin believers were offered, they still turn a blind eye and keep asking these question, some believers go as far as even copying others silly questions by many non Muslims and come and post it on Islamic web sites, see how they fell preys to Iblis?, sure because they are not Mukhlasin believers, rather some big mouths wannabe believers and Iblis love them as he loves hell, well he is trying hard to have?m as his companions in hell, this is very noble by Iblis, to honour companionships, LOL, again, the Quran has given us another example15- Only those are Believers who have believed in Allah and His Messenger, and have never since doubted, but have striven with their belongings and their persons in the Cause of Allah Such are the sincere
16- Say What! Will ye instruct Allah about your religion? But Allah knows all that is in the heavens and on earth He has full knowledge of all things.
(15)
(16)-> See bro how the first verse describes the believers ? Only those are Believers who have believed in Allah and His Messenger, and have never since doubted?, see those believers are ? Such are the sincere?, because when they believed, they really believed and ? have never since doubted?, I?m sure they asked zillions of silly questio0ns before they decided to believe and submit to Allah.
-> Those who keep asking questions regarding Allah words stating His actions in the Quran have a serious question to answer ? Say What! Will ye instruct Allah about your religion??, it?s a very serious question indeed and their statement of belief is really jeopardised because they totally forgot that ? Allah knows all that is in the heavens and on earth He has full knowledge of all things?, how come they claim to have believed and keep questioning Allah then look for answers from humans and not from the Quran by Allah?, if there is no answer to their question then that should be the end of it really, or will it make them unbelievers?, it is actually quite possible bro, and that is why I?m tough with those ones, it is actually caring from my side for them, Allah knows well my intensions, let?s look how it can happen and what it can lead to
Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.
(137)
-> See bro how it can happen when doubt comes in ? Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief,?, it?s a worry for them because ? Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.?
Here you have it bro, I?m trying to help them by showing them the plain answers from the Quran, this plain answers is what Allah said, not what I said, so if we have a question regarding Allah like ?why Allah didn?t preserve previous scriptures?? and there is no answer in the Quran then ?Allah can not be asked that question?, He is The God and He does what He wants and part of what He wanted is not to tell us why He didn?t preserve the previous scriptures. Now humans can seek answers from humans and I?m sure this may lead them astray because the many answers they will hear will surely cause trouble to them regardless how plain the many human answers are it is exactly as the Quran told us.
This idea is borne out of the way that it is disrespectful to question a king for anything he has done, or question a parent for something he/she may have said/done.
I don?t think so bro, the idea is borne out of the way the people before us asked these questions and on that account they lost their faith, it has nothing to do with respect it is all about knowing well Who we are dealing with
But this is not the way that belief in Islam works. Allah never asks us to believe Him in this way, and in fact encourages us to investigate and ask questions. Even the word IMAAN relates to this. It's interesting that IMAAN means to believe in something after it has satisfied and made peace with all of one's senses and understanding... ie through intensive investigation.
Yes that is before we believe, after we believe then it works differently, if the question is about Allah or His actions then the answer should be provided by Him only, if the answer is not in the Quran then we should not ask this question about Him.
those who believe without questioning are like sheep.
I agree, but as you can see they are believers and they can ask even silly question but only before they believed, if they declare their belief in Allah then any question about Him and His actions should be referred to Him ONLY in His preserved words, if there is no answer then the question should not be asked about Him, i.e. this is the answer to their question that is ?you should not ask this question mister believer?
there is no harm in healthy questions and investigation.
I agree but for positive questions about faith, not silly questions like why Allah did not preserve the old scriptures, this is actually a silly question because it can be asked the other way around, ?Why Allah preserved the Quran??, this can also lead to another silly question, ?Why Allah sent many books, why not ONE only that is preserved??, again if there is no answers to these silly questions in the Quran, it means that belivers should not ask these questions
One merely has to be careful about understanding the limits of the human mind. It's not like the question is hypothetical about very obscure things... his question is very real and relates to an ACTUAL occurence... previous scriptures were not at all preserved, yet they like the Quran, came from Allah.
Again we can only look for answers regarding this action by Allah in the Quran, if the Quran does not answer it then I believe and logically speaking the question should not be asked by someone claiming to be a believer
There are explanations for phoenix's questions, more than one,
See, that is what I?m talking about, Iblis has found some companions and is playing with them because simply which one of these explanations do you reckon was the intension of Allah?, NO ONE KNOWS except Allah, so in effect we will be saying things about Allah that we don?t know, this is actually one of Iblis tricks, here it is bro
168- O men! eat the lawful and good things out of what is in the earth, and do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy.
169- He only enjoins you evil and indecency, and that you may speak against Allah what you do not know.
(16
(169)-> See bro what Iblis can do to us ? He only enjoins you evil and indecency, and that you may speak against Allah what you do not know.?
and in fact the explanation itself can have great ramifications for one's understanding of Islam.
It seems those are really in need to understand what Allah is first before they submit to Him and join Islam
This particular question of his is rather important in understanding the whole concept of nasikh mansookh.
This whole concept of Nasikh and Mansookh is nothing but utter non sense, I?m talking within the Quran itself, regarding the Quran and other scriptures, it is obvious that the Quran over written them as a whole and we only need to believe and follow the Quran, but we only need to believe that Allah sent previous scriptures, that?s all
If you don't ask questions, your understanding will be shallow, and hence your belief will also be superficial and flimsy.
If you are an unbeliever then be my guest and I welcome any question about Allah even the silly ones.
If you claim to have believed then only ask questions about Allah where we can find answers in the Quran, if there is no answer then the Question is answered by simply ?it should NOT be asked by a true believer and a submitter?
If one believe's something blindly, that is not imaan.
I agree but we are talking about two phases of life here
- before belief
- after belief and submitting to Allah
Take care bro
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Peace Ahmed,
Good post. I think the point that you may be missing is that perhaps the answer to Phoenix's question is already in the Qur'an. His premise is about fairness, and how could it be fair to those who have a corrupted scripture when we have a "pure" scripture. The Qur'an answers this question indirectly
569 ?Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.?
So, even a corrupted scripture can deliver this message.
Further, we will be judged in perfect fairness by God, so surely God knows what each person had to endure and how we dealt with our individual burdens.
3969-70 And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord, and the record will be placed, and the prophets and the witnesses will be brought forth; and it will then be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged.
And every soul will be paid for whatever it did, for He is fully aware of everything they have done.So, even though a question may seem silly to you, it's premise is already answered in the Qur'an.
2533 And no question do they bring to you but We bring to you the Truth and the best explanation.
Peace,
TayPeace,
Tay -
peace
whats the guarantee that even w/ a pure scripture that these people wouldn't go astray, billions are already w/ a pure scripture. You have to understand that people for whom God is sufficient will always be in the minority.