Conditioning,upbringing and brainwashing...
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Peace all. I have been studying peoples behaviour,and reading material on the role of parents in the education of children... One very interesting point that i see is that many adults are 'stuck',conditioned and brainwashed into patterns of thought and behaviours which are not fully in tune with reality....An example is some of the pakistani community in england (of which i am one... .) who will insist islam consists of quran,hadith and decisions of imams regardless of any good counter-evidence,and will criticise,belittle and downgrade people of differnet religions before even finding out what that particular religion entails.....I found it quite amusing that when one of these 'characters' discusses religion he may criticise jesus as being the 'english/christian/white crucified prophet,while forgetting the respect jesus is afforded in the quran....
Some of these characters after their first night in jail after commiting dangerous driving offenses,credit card fraud,theft or tax-evasion will ask the prison guard if the meat in the dinner is halal.... rotfl
These characters will probably never touch alcohol or will never miss a single eid,but will smoke marijuana all day and be irresponsible with their white girlfriends.(while also being engaged or married.)
I have summised that the hold of their parents 'conditioning' and 'brainwashing' of how the world is and should be,has a very strong hold on their mentality so there are some cultural morals/norms which they will never or very rarely break... ( such as respect for even immoral parents,respect for illogical parts of religion,etc,etc...) The way they interact with the world is a mixture of half-truths,pre-conceptions,prejudices,illusions,along with personal experience and some realistic truths....
Even if another person converts to islam sincerely that person will very rarely be able to marry their daughters as they are invariably the wrong color or from the wrong village... Soo much for their islam being tolerant and accessible to all colors and races...
I see generation after generation repeating the same racial,illusional,racist,harmful dogmas to their children and then crying when the rare event happens that their children actually achieve some real independence of thought and enlightenment and break free of the cultural brainwashing....
I think that unless people actually use their intelligence and free-will to break free of their coonditioning from parents,media,religious leaders,quack scientists,peer pressure and their own personal mental weakneseses,that they may continue to live in a less satisfactory,narrow minded,intolerant,dogmatic,clan minded,illogical and divisive way...
No wonder most people admire 'original' or 'different' thinkers who think outside the box and question,reform and change their own thinking patterns and conditioning....Its instructive that many great thinkers differ vastly from the inherited ideas of their parents and the community at large...
I would be very interested to know what folks on the forum think of the role of nature,nurture,conditioning,brainwashing and free-will has on the beliefs and 'behaviour' of a person... -
Some of these characters after their first night in jail after commiting dangerous driving offenses,credit card fraud,theft or tax-evasion will ask the prison guard if the meat in the dinner is halal....
lol I think that?s got something to do with the 'phobia' of haram food. I know plenty of rotten sinners with that phobia.
Enquirer do you eat pork?
I see generation after generation repeating the same racial,illusional,racist,harmful dogmas to their children and then crying when the rare event happens that their children actually achieve some real independence of thought and enlightenment and break free of the cultural brainwashing....
I agree. I have a similar problem.
To be honest I only started to use my own brain when I was about 16!!
Now that I have my mum and dad are thinking of removing the Internet from our house coz it?s a "bad influence" on me and they detest the idea of me using my own mind.
I think that unless people actually use their intelligence and free-will to break free of their coonditioning from parents,media,religious leaders,quack scientists,peer pressure and their own personal mental weakneseses,that they may continue to live in a less satisfactory,narrow minded,intolerant,dogmatic,clan minded,illogical and divisive way..
I agree. But dealing with problem is easier said then done.
I would be very interested to know what folks on the forum think of the role of nature,nurture,conditioning,brainwashing and free-will has on the beliefs and 'behaviour' of a person...
Well I was brought up to believe that once you?re been into a Muslim family you are "trapped" for life elektro. I was also made to believe that is was a sin to study other people?s religion, which sucks coz I learnt practically nothing at my RE lessons in school either. Whenever I try to read a book about any other religion I always feel intimidated by their reactions. The only thing I wish my parents would do is agree to differ and not to be so possessive, but that is asking for too much!!
Peace,
Sugar -
Peace sugar and all. I understand your situation...I have had to deal with parents,in-laws and people like this all my life...One piece of advice from me,dont expect your parents or those around you to change or even be tolerant/open-minded with you...Sometimes people dont want to change or dont think they need changing as they think they know best...I would suggest you get educated at university and/or college to the highest level you can,and then become as independent as possible financially and mentally from the people who try to control your life...My wife would be a good person to talk to you about how to deal with 'village mentality' parents and how to live your life with your own mind...
I tell you what,people can try to control others and make their lives hard but they cannot fully control our minds...I feel you are trying to use your own mind and trying to learn from your own life-experiences,which is a great bonus and a good start in life...many people never achieve any large degree of freedom from the brainwashing of their parents because they dont try hard enough and are too scared to stand up to their families...This is where some english families are generally much more enlightened than certain pakistani families...I feel some english families give their children the tolerance,freedom and respect needed to help their children achieve independence and to live their life using their own unique intelligence...Im sure a lot of pakistani youngsters are repressed by their parents,and this is why i see a lot of youngsters doing strange and potentially harnful deeds,and leading double lives...Many asian parents dont give much true respect to youngsters,especially the ladies,and the parents have a pretty closed minded view of reality...
My oldest sister is 16,and i tell her to get educated and get her own life...My own daughter is very young,but i tell her she can be anything she wants if she works hard at it,i dont mind her doing anything she wants when she is older,as long as she doesnt harm herself or others...I dont mind her marrying black,white or green,i just want the guy to be a responsible compatible man for her....She can choose for herself,and make a life for herself,i just want her to be happy... And the same applies to my little boy...As for whether i eat pork,well i have not eaten pork yet,but i just havent got round to trying it yet,nothing to do with religion....I will eat or do anything,as long as it doesnt cause long term harm to me or others...I am responsible for my own behaviour and i have to be aware of the possible effects my actions can have on others and myself...
I have sat down with asian guys from pakistan who had been brought up to never touch alcohol,i explained to them that its not like a moderate drink will cause them to start behaving like an idiot or cause them to start losing their mind as they may have been brought up to believe...After their first drink,they may have realised that their views on alcohol were influenced by illusions,incomplete knowledge,little research,parents,and no real experience of the real world....I believe many other topics such as food,the role of marriage,prayer,muslim/non-muslim distinctions,religion etc,have been similarily misunderstood and made illogical by a lack of research,thinking and open-mindedness by ourselves and our parents.....I have broken free,and am continuing to break free of this brainwashing,conditioning and irrational thinking.....
Free your mind,and the rest can follow...Know thyself...(socrates.)
Take it easy all. -
As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.It's almost the same case here. In the Balcans all muslims came from Bosnia and from there they came from Turkey during Ottoman Empire and uuntil today, these muslims will always, ALWAYS, always check the background of their child's spouse, because they wanna know, if the person is good for them.
My mother and father both come from such families who almost hate each other. And all because of the different accent and the geographical distance in Bosnia, because my mother was born in the city called Modria, that would be in the North-East of Bosnia and my father in North West of Bosnia and the place where my father was born, city called Prijedor, all people are known as lazy. I mean they're not really lazy, they're just called that by the others.
Because of this, because my father was born in Prijedor, now people call me lazy bones, because they think that apparently by their "logic" the lazy gene made and exit from my father's DNA and came to me and now i'm gonna be like him, get it? can you understand the stupidity i'm talking about? brickwall brickwall
my parents think that because we live in a christian country, because we are a minority and because muslims are "under attack" in the world, that we muslims should keep a low profile, hidden and not be "religious" in public, like say salam and or pray in the park. brickwall
When i mentioned to a friend of mine whi is a sunni muslim, would he ever pray in the park, if he couldn't make it home in time and he laughed, he said no freakin' way, people would kill him. I asked him, what people, we live in demokracy, no one can touch you. He said, nope, people would kill me, they would wait for me and kill me. I not only wondered, but i felt sorry that this man is given a driver's licence because one day he might drive himself crazy as well as far as off some bridge. brickwall
Mulims here look at me like i'm a terrorist, if i don't shave for a week, they think i don't wanna get married just because i'm against fornication and finally they think i'm just, plain nuts because i'm not fornicating. They are sure, that i'm missing something. brickwall I just don't mention Heaven or Hell to them, because they think that's make-believe place. brickwall elektro
These muslims here are ashamed of their religion because the communist regime from earlier has brainwashed every fibre of their being, Serbs killed us, mentally, psychically, Slovenians make them feel less confidant and these sunnis think that they have nothing in common with Arab muslims, they think they are European muslims and they say that these two things are two different things. brickwall
May Allah Most Merciful bless us all and guide us to His Paradise.
As salamu alaykum. jedi -
Peace
You should consider reading material by Prof. Noam Chomsky, he will prove to you that in the west we are brain-washed too. Excellent documentaries featuring his ideas are Manufacturing consent, Distorted Morality, The Corporation, The Imperial Grand Strategy, The spectacular achievements of propaganda etc. -
You should consider reading material by Prof. Noam Chomsky
what are the books called?
I have sat down with asian guys from pakistan who had been brought up to never touch alcohol,i explained to them that its not like a moderate drink will cause them to start behaving like an idiot or cause them to start losing their mind as they may have been brought up to believe...After their first drink,they may have realised that their views on alcohol were influenced by illusions,incomplete knowledge,little research,parents,and no real experience of the real world....
now this is a point where i start to disagree with you Enq. Sure a small amount of Alcohol won't harm but i've seen people so drunk that they can't even walk properly and they still claim that they are "not drunk" )...these people don't even know their limit and even a small amount should be avoided. A lot of my school friends start having "just one glass" and hoping to stop there but end up finishing 2 bottles. The stuff they got up to when they were drunk astonished me o o (far too rude to mention), but they only intended to have "just one drink".
I don't particularly like the idea of you encouraging the consumption of alcohol (even if it is a small amount) to people from Pakistan who have been brought up to believe that alcohol (even in small amounts) sends you loopy. I believe their views of Alcohol is more accurate then your view. When my friends have just a few sips of alcohol i leave them coz i know that i wont be able to have a normal conversation with them even with such a small amount of alcohol in their system, besides i can't stand the smell of alcohol yuck.
So Enq where do you draw the line?
As someone from a Pakistani origin what would you do if one of your children told you that they were gay? coming from a similar background as you (my family are from Pakistani Kashmir) i know "the infinite shame" it will bring on the family. Would you let them live the life they wish?
peace,
sugar -
Good posts. However not paying taxes is a heroic deed, not a crime.
peace
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Peace sugar. I have many friends who drink and can still stay out of serious trouble...I guarantee that i can drink one beer and still function properly...I have never drunk more than two pints in one day,in fact i normally will have one beer maybe once a week or even less frequently...I agree many stupid things can be done under the influence of excess drugs and alcohol,but moderation and knowing ones' limits are the key...Sometimes its because the person concerned has an addictive,irresponsible,immature or destructive personality that causes the harm,because these folks dont know how to drink properly...Just as irresponsible drivers dont know how to drive properly,its the person driving at fault,not the car...I believe some people may not be mature or responsible enough to drink,i dont encourage people to drink,but i dont say its always bad or taboo either,the line is drawn by the persons own observations on how their mind functions when drinking,and if they can still be responsible when doing so....If a person cannot handle drink,i would suggest they give it up or cut it down a lot to safe levels...
If one of my children told me they were gay,i would be happy that they were comfortable enough to talk with me about a potentially very diffcult topic,i would talk with them as to whether they feel this is truely what they want and discuss the implications of their choice...Then,yes i would back them
if i felt their choice was right for them,and i wouldnt let my parents and relatives narrow-minded conditioning interfere or make me or my child feel shame...I dont believe homosexuality is definately wrong,and i dont believe in causing people shame and distress because of their differnet lifestyles,as long as they dont hurt themselves or others.....
I dont want to live my life bowing to narrow minded,ignorant,malicious bigots from my relatives or community who distinctly have a lack of insight,tolerance, overall humanity,real-life understanding and experience... -
I guarantee that i can drink one beer and still function properly...
i won't believe that unless i see it ignore You should see the kids i saw at school after one beer! On the news they tested the influence of a small amount of Alcohol on drivers and the results were pretty bad.
Sometimes its because the person concerned has an addictive,irresponsible,immature or destructive personality that causes the harm,
now that?s a bit harsh... my friends are "only having 'fun'"
I agree many stupid things can be done under the influence of excess drugs and alcohol,but moderation and knowing ones' limits are the key...
drugs? o
do you know the amount of crap there is in an E pill?
I read in a magazine there were some E pills that contained rat poison, washing powder and glass. The dealers are nut cases, some of them put all sorts of crap in them. I believe that drugs and alcohol should be avoided completely. They are not worth the trouble and you don't get much in return.
because these folks dont know how to drink properly...Just as irresponsible drivers dont know how to drive properly,its the person driving at fault,not the car...
Driving is a must (unless you fancy walking it to the other end of town )) drinking is unnecessary.
I believe some people may not be mature or responsible enough to drink,
therefore everyone IMO should avoid it.
If one of my children told me they were gay,i would be happy that they were comfortable enough to talk with me about a potentially very diffcult topic,i would talk with them as to whether they feel this is truely what they want and discuss the implications of their choice...Then,yes i would back them
if i felt their choice was right for them,and i wouldnt let my parents and relatives narrow-minded conditioning interfere or make me or my child feel shame...I dont believe homosexuality is definately wrong,and i dont believe in causing people shame and distress because of their differnet lifestyles,as long as they dont hurt themselves or others.....
I dont want to live my life bowing to narrow minded,ignorant,malicious bigots from my relatives or community who distinctly have a lack of insight,tolerance, overall humanity,real-life understanding and experience...did you know that homosexuality is a mental disorder?
it can stem from all sorts of things. If my kid (if i had one) said that i would send them to a psychiatrist and get them cured. My friend knew someone who was a lesbian and her parents took her to a psychiatrist and found out the root of the problem. She witnessed a rape and then after that developed a 'phobia' of men and started getting sexual feelings for women. She was sent for counseling to get over the rape she witnessed and then after she got over what happened she stopped getting those feelings for women. This is hardly the only case like this. There's no evidence to support the claim that homosexuality is genetic. Even if it was does it make it right? I've heard that being a serial killer is partially genetic and can you justify any of the murders because of that? (yes i know there's a whole world of difference between homosexuality and murder )) Although i am against homosexuality i don't believe that it should be a taboo subject, these people need help IMO. Homosexuality should never have been taken off the list of mental disorders IMO. I find it ironic how depression is considered a mental disorder and that homosexuality is not, everybody gets depressed, it's part of life but homosexuality is not.
peace,
sugar -
Go to a Chapters/Borders or good bookstore, in the political section, look for Noam Chomsky. To get the documentaries, you can order them over the internet (do a search)
Peace -
Peace sugar. ok,so you wont believe it untill you see it,well do you believe layth is from saudi,or that your parents were born in pakistan,because you were not there when your parents were born,so you will have to take their word for it...? )
Yes,you admit your friends are only having fun,so the problem only occurs when they behave badly because of misuse of drink...? So what needs to be taught is responsible drinking,no? Im not talking about drinking and driving which can be very,very irresponsible and deadly...Im talking of drinking and relaxing and socialising...
Maybe the people you see misbehaving are misusing the drink...?
You claimed drugs and alcohol are not worth their benefit,and should be avoided completely?...Well almost the entire western medical industry is based on derivatives involving alcohol and drugs....Dont you see the tremendous benefits these drugs and alcohol give when used properly in somewhat controlled/responsible conditions? Or should we go back to biting a bullet when having surgery or our teeth removed? )
Misuse of drugs is what causes the problems,not just the drugs themselves...
Dont worry i know very well about e tablets.....just ask my friend bmbmm about them...As for homosexuality being a mental illness,im not convinced at all on that theory or the evidence for the theories....
Dont you realise that by treating your hypothetical kids as mentally ill because of being gay,that you are potentially oppressing them,just like certain members of your community oppress you and may call you mentally suspect because of your perceived deviant/different views on islam,and your being female? (i dont mean offense to you here,nor am i calling you mentally suspect or deviant,im just giving you a potential scenario,i have been called crazy on numerous occasions by religious and non-religious closed-minded people. ))
But i tell you one thing that should be definately placed on the list of mental disorders in instead of homosexuality.....That is the 'religious' fanatic mentality....... bravo yay -
I read in a magazine there were some E pills that contained rat poison, washing powder and glass. The dealers are nut cases, some of them put all sorts of crap in them.
Not that i advocate the use of drugs, i dont. However, i advocate the use of actual facts and reality. The working substance that people are looking for the high of is called MDMA. But E's, eve etc. refer to tablets of dubvious origin supposedly containing mdma. Pushers are not idiots. They dont want their paying costumers to die, and most death related cases has been overdosage and overheating (wrong use). In nearly all the cases, it was a mixed drugabuse, where several drugs where digested. The real danger of the tablets is ketamine (horse tranquilizer) and strong synthetic hallucinogens that can be rather uncontrolable but give a similar effect as the MDMA. But i have seen no cases realted to MDMA in raw form. I have personally seen people eat a whole handfull of pure mdma powder and still be perfectly capable of having a conversation, albeit their movement and speak seemed slugish. Nothing like drunk people. they made perfect sense. The rat poison is propaganda, a confirmed urban legend btw.
Altso i have seen MDMA transform people to the better, for good. It is the only drug in the world that i know of, that can make people say "this stuff made me a better human". It has permanently removed fear of death in terminally sick people, enabeling them to talk openly with their familes about what is comming, making the last time better for all. I belive this substance has a place in our world, but not at rave parties with 15 year old kids who arent developed in their heads. Nor as a source of anything but what it is. It opens up people in a way that allows them to talk about things that bothers them deeply, and not feel ashamed. This can be the first step out of insanity e.g And the test that has been made with it, and DMT shows clearly that professionals can guide people out of deep psychosis using this stuff. But it is illegal because of the dopeheads. and thats a damn shame.
Demonising and lying about drugs is not going to make them go away (and cocaine and heroine only if CIA is shut down), and it will have the reverse effect. Kids arent dumb, and unless motivated by relegious reasons like our sister here, a lot of them figure out they have been lied to. So if they lied to them about the weed and the e. and all their mates still live regardless of them eating this stuff, they properbly lied about the rest too...right? And then we are in an evil spiral of abuse, and waste of life. This is the downside i have witnessed aswell. A bloody shame that is (
In short. Drugs are yet another erea where we are simply not told the truth, and only biased research. Most of us have been brainwashed and conditioned to have the attitude that we have about drugs, and thus we throw the baby out with the water. The only really questionable drug that i know of, besides heroine (cocaine serves as an eye muscle relaxer, for optic tests, as eyedrops), is alcohol. Its good for cleaning windows and toilets, but what else is it good for? Psychologically speaking its rather dangerous, on a physical level it kills braincells, damages cells, etc etc. etc, there is nothing but evil relatd to this, except for a few "a glass of wine makes you healthy" (paid for by the alcohol complex) biased articles that surface now and then, only to get shot to s***s, by real scientists. and than it comes back.
But all the drugs we are told are evil, with the exception of heroine that serves no purpose what so ever, have a possitive appliance if used in the correct context. But alcohol is ok?
black is white, white is black, up is down, left is right..... confused hypno ???
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Magi ofcourse i know that drug education is biased )
So thankyou for your "enlightening" post, i mean i was just born yesterday i would not know that would i?
I know it was biased to quote the mag but i don't believe what they wrote was a complete lie, it was actually isolated cases they reported which had such substances. Yes it?s wrong to generalize.
BTW i was referring to the crap sold outside nightclubs?.
Peace sugar. ok,so you wont believe it untill you see it,
correct.
well do you believe layth is from saudi
not sure.
or that your parents were born in pakistan,because you were not there when your parents were born,so you will have to take their word for it...? )
no i won't take their word for it. I checked. P
You claimed drugs and alcohol are not worth their benefit,and should be avoided completely?...Well almost the entire western medical industry is based on derivatives involving alcohol and drugs....Dont you see the tremendous benefits these drugs and alcohol give when used properly in somewhat controlled/responsible conditions? Or should we go back to biting a bullet when having surgery or our teeth removed? )
Enq you know what i mean, i mean when socializing or just for pleasure.
Dont you realise that by treating your hypothetical kids as mentally ill because of being gay,that you are potentially oppressing them
Because I personally did not know the girl i can't comment. However i will bring that up.
It will NOT go down well -\
Is there anything else you would like to say that i can pass on? especially to the girls parents? or even the girl her self?
But i tell you one thing that should be definately placed on the list of mental disorders in instead of homosexuality.....That is the 'religious' fanatic mentality.......
i think it is.
I read in a magazine i bought from Arabia that they sent religious fanatics to psychologists and psychiatrist to sort their head out before they let them go. Although there may not be a name for this problem it is being dealt with.
Also i'm under the impression what you said was also referring to me?
yes islam does heavily influence my views on many things like that and of course i am gonna be biased. But that does not mean i put my religion first all the time.
peace,
sugar -
Some of these characters after their first night in jail after commiting dangerous driving offenses,credit card fraud,theft or tax-evasion will ask the prison guard if the meat in the dinner is halal.... rotfl
speaking of brainwashing, since when is tax evasion a sin?
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Some of these characters after their first night in jail after commiting dangerous driving offenses,credit card fraud,theft or tax-evasion will ask the prison guard if the meat in the dinner is halal.... rotfl
speaking of brainwashing, since when is tax evasion a sin?
peace
i have these flashes every day now. Where i "wake up" thinking something, or saying something in a totally automated way. We have been seriously damaged from many parts, and are dayly. And the minute you think it didnt hit you, is when they got you for real.
edit The problem is that we dont see our own programs as bad and there are no real attempt to change them. Isnt it clear that society is stupid? Of course it is. And doesnt that mean that my social programming, even my personality, is a load of crap? Absolutely, it means that.
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Some of these characters after their first night in jail after commiting dangerous driving offenses,credit card fraud,theft or tax-evasion will ask the prison guard if the meat in the dinner is halal.... rotfl
speaking of brainwashing, since when is tax evasion a sin?
Well it's against the law and Islamicly aren't we supposed to be abide by the laws of the country we reside in?
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peace
aren't we supposed to be abide by the laws of the country we reside in?
the Laws of God always take precedence (in our lives). The laws of God are the law of the land. However, if one is cheating the law of the land then it's definitely sinful imo. Or being dis-honest in anyway. Most of us know what's good and what's bad.....
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peace
aren't we supposed to be abide by the laws of the country we reside in?
the Laws of God always take precedence (in our lives). The laws of God are the law of the land. However, if one is cheating the law of the land then it's definitely sinful imo. Or being dis-honest in anyway. Most of us know what's good and what's bad.....
My days, I think you may feel compulsion to post as much as possible but I'm not sure if there is quite the pressing need for you to state the obvous like this. We're supposed to follow God's laws eh? Wow, thanks for clarifying
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Peace all. very interesting posts indeed. bravo I will reply in the middle of next week,i wont be at my pc for a while....
ps; sugar,i was not really directing my religious mentality comment at you,at least you seem to question things and try to find out from your own experiences... bravo