The Tragedy of TYRANNICAL-minds (formerly 'free-minds')
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To study, understand and discuss a historical book named Quran and not to cuss it out in the name of GOD like you and your cronies do?
You're really here to sincerely, and open-mindedly do all those things? Are you sure you're not here to try to convince people to
realize the fact that it is nothing more than an ancient book. No need for condemnations and inflamatory declarations to support a man-made written book. To many, especially the radically and derainged Islamic fundamentalists, this book has become another GOD or IDOL.
Also, cuss it out in the name of God? What? Show me where I have done this.
This thread was intentionally created to spark a flame (read again), not to discuss matters of the Quran but to instigate "violence" amongst its members. Mquran and a few others take deliberate and painstaking measures to politicize this forum.
As I have said, I do not agree with everything he says. However, I do believe a few people here such as yourself do have agendas here. Stop looking at this whole forum as one whole.
If you want to study and understand the entire Quran, then do so with open-mindedness,
That seems a bit hypocritical.
from both its internal and external relevancies and realize the fact that it is nothing more than an ancient book. No need for condemnations and inflamatory declarations to support a man-made written book.
We have separate beliefs. Get rid of your agenda.
To many, especially the radically and derainged Islamic fundamentalists, this book has become another GOD or IDOL.
No need to bring them in. Don't associate them with me.
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Salam upon you all,
Please my family in faith, we have to stop arguing like this with each other. None of us will ever know the entire truth in detail. But I know God is the truth, and I know God wants us to believe in him, and I know God wants us to do and be good, and I know God would not create us and put us here without also giving us his guidance for those who seek it. I think we all agree that God exists and that God gave mankind the Quran for his guidance. Cant we at least start there and try to build upon that. If you dont believe these two simple statements then you dont belong in this forum. If you do then lets try to work together to spread this message of truth to mankind. Lets not be like all other religions and denominations and fight and split into as many beliefs as their are minds of men.
Does anyone else here believe like I do that we in this new God alone/Quran alone community aregiven the greatest task ever given to mankind since Prophet Mohammad brought the message, and since then the religion of Islam has been corrupted? If we truly believe in the Quran and God alone then shouldnt we try to build together from there? Lets not quibble over trivial little comments and repaste posts of others just to criticize and make a few points here and there. We must start by seeing where we agree, and buils one step at a time from there to the next thing we believe, of course we will be open minded and accept all views and opinions if they help and contribute to this, but if its just negative criticism without any good to it we must reject it, we cant allow every whim and wish to invade our belief.
So I propose a start to our new True Islam Ummah,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I bear witness that there is no God but God,,
if you agree with this then next is,
I believe the Quran is the holy message of the One God to all mankind,,
If we can all agree on this then we are already doing better than anyone else ever did,
lets build from ther my friends..
Salam,
Kurt
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Hello All
I really have no problem with the enemy of Islam to post their crap in here as long as they are aware that some committed believers won't let that go easy, so if they want to degrade and defame the Quran, be our gusts and we will bomb you out with ease, i hope they have enugh stamina though.
Salam
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Ugh.
Lol OM
come on give me a break will ya?, they are coming to our house degarding the Quran, what do you want us to do?, oh yeh will give them our second cheek to slap it
Salam
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Salaamun alaikum guys.
Allow me to clarify a few things ok
Jankren Everytime there is a topic regarding certain things in Al Quran, people who remind me of those arrogant and idiotic imams, who think they know better and look down on others, often come up and attack one another in shameful manner
Debates do not have to be this way. You don't need to go 'you're a thousand billion percent wrong' or 'don't mislead anyone with your arabic'. These are provocative responses. Rather, you could go 'I disagree' and move on.
However, this is NOT the issue. The issue is, very simply, that people are coming, DEFECATING or URINATING metaphorically on what the believers* consider the book of God. I use these strong words because if one aimed to clarify or criticise, one should stick around for the answers. Be responsible, not scum.
Danish (insert unintelligible response here)
Danish is a good example of a defecator. He comes with a highly provocative remark (like 'this interpretation is silly' and when one asks for definition, he uses abusive language. I don't know how the moderators still tolerate him.
S2S If all believers in quran packed up and shipped out, what would become of this forum ?
S2S, we don't need believers* to do anything if the forum itself was tightened. All we need is to do is to open AQ and ask it, what do we do in a situation like this?
Samia I totally agree with S2S. I do not understand this defeatism you are showing, mq, because that's not you. Yes, leaving, or thinking of leaving the forum is defeatism, and that's what many want that this forum collapses.So please let's not give them this opportunity
It's difficult for me to sit by and watch AQ being lied about. I already see that in many forums run by ignorant people but in FM itself, it shouldn't happen.
DanishIf only he had a "VOICE" to be heard. His aim is to ban all non-quranists
Another lie. My aim to make sure that that ALL criticisms of AQ are taken responsibility for by the critic. You sir , are the second worst person in that respect. You mud-sling AQ and then u abuse people who defend it.
DanishI wonder the same about you. (samia)
What a childish and pathetic response. Samia contributes positively to discussion unlike Danish who's here to vent.
ABthis tells me that he (danish) is very itchy and unsecure to what he believes in, you know similar to those mass killers suiciders who can't face death alone so they try to kill as many as they can with them
My guess is this too.
TayI know many people here probably have issues with any sort of behavioral "policing". But the fact of the matter is that in real life, if someone is acting like an ass, we usually walk away or start a fight. But here, it's ok to act like an ass so long as the rules aren't broken. One doesn't have to blatantly insult someone else in order to insult someone else.
I include myself in hoping that all of us people (without any label) will just take a moment to reflect on our behaviors. A spark without fuel cannot become a flame. Let's keep the fuel to a minimum and remind each other when progress is sacrificed in the name of pride.
Agreed. And I would add , AQ is something we don't play around with. I have thought about this and conclude that to be silent while insults to AQ are abound and while new people are coming and reading, thus seeing that AQ is 'vulnerable' (due to obfuscation of discussion, not actual vulnerability) is unacceptable. I ask fellow believers* to put a stop to this as far as they can.
Mehdifair enough.. it appears so far that you have a greivance with one member of the board... but this does not appear to be the only issue.. the person who are protecting in your post above on this very thread has accused me of being in a group with the member who are in grievance with... although I was not involved at all with the said argument which you guys were having etc..
Yes, that's correct, BEHAVIOURALLY insofar as behaviour is defined by the proceeding sentence, you're of the same group as Enquirer, Lote-Tree and Danish. You start out with provocative and insulting threads and refuse to discuss them amicably. Such is the work of troublemakers and just because you purport to believe in AQ, that doesnt make u any different if u behave in that way.
I've obsereved MQuran use the Quran to continue to sling accusations on those who disagree with his notions of quran... this is quran thumping... hitting another over the head with the quran and one's interrpetation.. and this just can't be good... it's not right... again.. calling a Believer a kafur is the worst of insults.. but we don't seem to curb this as much others go after members like enquirer as you mentioned above...
Kindly bring forth examples of this.
Also tell us, should we not judge AQ to judge people? What is AQ for then? Evidence please.
(prediction no evidence will be forthcoming)
Thank you OpenMind.. i understand what you mean.. cause I'm still waiting for enquierer to continue on the "conditioning" thread he started... but am not holding my breath...
And I'm still waiting for YOU to define what a sect is. You called FM 'a sect about nothing' but refused to define your terms. Are we too low to warrant your explanations?
Danish This thread was intentionally created to spark a flame (read again), not to discuss matters of the Quran but to instigate "violence" amongst its members. Mquran and a few others take deliberate and painstaking measures to politicize this forum.
I wonder this person is, really. If he was from a muslim background, wouldnt he know that AQ embraces the political ? OF COURSE IM AIMING TO POLITICISE THE FORUM. This forum was meant for us to dig deep into AQ, not for you to come, open your mouth and defecate. If I wanted to listen to abuse, I'd go to PatRobertson.com and listen to them! I want people like you to stop abusing the forum. If you have a criticism, bring it forth but STAND BY IT. If you want to be an intellectual eunuch, go somewhere else.
The above is only my view. Whatever the mods decide, I will have to stick to this.
OMWe have separate beliefs. Get rid of your agenda.
As you can see, even in this forum this guy will try to slip in his agenda. Well spotted there, Navid.
ABI really have no problem with the enemy of Islam to post their crap in here as long as they are aware that some committed believers won't let that go easy, so if they want to degrade and defame the Quran, be our gusts and we will bomb you out with ease, i hope they have enugh stamina though
.I may not like your style but I certainly agree with the stamina bit.
Free-Minders, we're not talking about freedom here. Danish and Mehdi have to come to confuse the issue so that we miss the REAL issue at hand.
DECENCY!
You want to call AQ whatever, fine. But you're then responsible. If you do not answer the questions level at you, retract or leave. Simple as.
Why do I ask for this? Because AQ says
Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of God held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme if ye did, ye would be like them. For God will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell-(4/140)
The problem here is, while you're not sitting with them, THEY COME TO SIT WITH YOU while continuing their mockery (calling Muhammad a madman and AQ a mishmash of narrations are examples). I was told by a sincere sunni friend who I asked to read FM a while back about such a situation. She said that this forum deliberately allows these people to do this to confuse issues. I was then reminded of 4/85 which says I'm part of this. This is why Im raising the issue. It's not my intention to curtail freedom of thought, only freedom of behaviour.
- believers in this context are people who believe AQ is of divine origin. Its simply for ease of conversation, not used in the quranic sense.
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If we need more proof, we are told by some of these people that their indulgence in alcohol is OK and that they find triumph from influencing people to consume alcohol. Alcohol, part of al-khamr or intoxicants is the work of ASH-SHAITAAN and we are to steer clear away from it (5/90-91). If anyone disagrees with AQ, fine but should believers be made to listen to their satanic discourses in the believer's own area?
Are you referring to this thread http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5623.0 ?
Peace
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mquran you stated in two posts...
Do not let free-minds become TYRANNICAL-minds.
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.... I used to criticise Dr Shabbir for his draconian style but when faced with these type of guys, i think Shabbir has a lot of sense. Being kind only gives them the scent of ur blood.
So you don't want this place to become "tyrannical" and yet you advocate a "draconian" style as Shabbir practises on his insignificant corner of the virtual world. He censors all discussion that does not suit his own agenda.
I think that's what you also mean. You want this place to be "free" for you to practise your own brand of tyranny.
Your hypocrisy as always, knows no shame.
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So you don't want this place to become "tyrannical" and yet you advocate a "draconian" style as Shabbir practises on his insignificant corner of the virtual world. He censors all discussion that does not suit his own agenda.
I think that's what you also mean. You want this place to be "free" for you to practise your own brand of tyranny.
That's incorrect. Let me state my position clearly
- I welcome all criticisms of AQ
- I want those who voice the criticisms to STAND and respond. This means they need to be responsible.
Do you have a problem with this? Do you think it's ok for people to come in, insult our beliefs and get away with it?
Dr Shabbir doesn't give two cents if you respond or not. If he doesn't like what you say, he deletes you. That's why I said 'but when faced with these type of guys, i think Shabbir has a lot of sense. Not sincere people who ask and answer with equal veracity but a certain type of troublemakers. Do read carefully, Truth. No amount of bombast will help if you can't read carefully.
Your hypocrisy as always, knows no shame.
Please explain why this is hypocrisy, to ask for a decent discussion. Further, please tell me where I've been a hypocrite before.
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Here's why Truth is riled up about my call to clean up the forum
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3007.0
This is where Truth decided that a verse was FALSE and plugged all sorts of nonsense to back it up. When I asked for QURANIC EVIDENCE, he of course went silent.
Truth is just a smarter version of Enquirer, hoping to push falsehoods about AQ without feeling the need to substantiate himself.
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Here's why Truth is riled up about my call to clean up the forum
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3007.0
This is where Truth decided that a verse was FALSE and plugged all sorts of nonsense to back it up. When I asked for QURANIC EVIDENCE, he of course went silent.
Truth is just a smarter version of Enquirer, hoping to push falsehoods about AQ without feeling the need to substantiate himself.
Brother
Oben is very well exposed, he is a sick hearted muslim who have no shame
don't worry about his rants bro
Cheers
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So you don't want this place to become "tyrannical" and yet you advocate a "draconian" style as Shabbir practises on his insignificant corner of the virtual world. He censors all discussion that does not suit his own agenda.
I think that's what you also mean. You want this place to be "free" for you to practise your own brand of tyranny.
That's incorrect. Let me state my position clearly
- I welcome all criticisms of AQ
- I want those who voice the criticisms to STAND and respond. This means they need to be responsible.
Do you have a problem with this? Do you think it's ok for people to come in, insult our beliefs and get away with it?
Dr Shabbir doesn't give two cents if you respond or not. If he doesn't like what you say, he deletes you. That's why I said 'but when faced with these type of guys, i think Shabbir has a lot of sense. Not sincere people who ask and answer with equal veracity but a certain type of troublemakers. Do read carefully, Truth. No amount of bombast will help if you can't read carefully.
Your hypocrisy as always, knows no shame.
Please explain why this is hypocrisy, to ask for a decent discussion. Further, please tell me where I've been a hypocrite before.
mquran,
My criticism is towards your contradictory statements on the one hand advocating freedom of thought and on the other advocating the abhorrent censorship and "draconian" policies in place at Shabbir's forum which I am totally opposed to. He has a barrow to push, and I feel that your contradictory double-talk is unfortunately compromising the validity of your premise.
You are being hypocritical by advocating a tyrannical approach to stamp out supposed tyranny.
Here are my suggestions to those who are frustrated by the 'defecators'.
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Don't reply with a page or more of material to a single line or paragraph from these 'defecators'.
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Be aware of 'troll' behaviour. If you know anything about forums you'll know there are trolls. The best way to stop these trolls is to stop feeding them. I am amazed how many times people continually take the bait hook, line and sinker. Consider whether you have simply become a victim of trolling behaviour.
It is unfortunate that the trolls will 'defecate' on many worthwhile discussions and disrupt them. To fall for their traps is a sign of your weakness.
Please read more about trolls on wikipedia and learn what constitutes trolling behaviour.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
Please read that and see how much of the 'trouble' here is actually just unrecognised (by the naive members) trolling behaviour.
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Truth My criticism is towards your contradictory statements on the one hand advocating freedom of thought and on the other advocating the abhorrent censorship and "draconian" policies in place at Shabbir's forum which I am totally opposed to. He has a barrow to push, and I feel that your contradictory double-talk is unfortunately compromising the validity of your premise.
Wow, I can understand needing to explain this to Enquirer but to you? I'm VERY surprised. Ok, one more time for posterity
I do not care what people believe. I DO care about what I'm participating in. If I'm going to be 'sitting' with people who talk about AQ, I will expect AQ to be treated well. This is why I'm here instead of in some right-wing Christian forum.
Shabbir has a barrow to push, sure but you think you're barrow-free? Maybe you're asking some carte blanche to push YOUR agenda, who knows? The only way to determine this is to test veracity. If you something to say, back it up. Don't give us hot air and run. That's a sign for intellectual flatulence. And if I know you, you don't like that.
You are being hypocritical by advocating a tyrannical approach to stamp out supposed tyranny.
According to whom? AQ tells us to wipe out fasad fil ardh, mischief in the earth. Is this tyranny or a valid response?
Once again for the people who constantly miss my point
I'm asking for ETHICS IN DISCUSSION. Say what you want BUT BACK IT UP. Lets keep this forum Quranic and not full of the stuff coming through here.
Obviously, this is a suggestion which carries no weight until backed up by Admin and Mods.
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Truth Here are my suggestions to those who are frustrated by the 'defecators'.
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Don't reply with a page or more of material to a single line or paragraph from these 'defecators'.
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Be aware of 'troll' behaviour. If you know anything about forums you'll know there are trolls. The best way to stop these trolls is to stop feeding them. I am amazed how many times people continually take the bait hook, line and sinker. Consider whether you have simply become a victim of trolling behaviour.
It is unfortunate that the trolls will 'defecate' on many worthwhile discussions and disrupt them. To fall for their traps is a sign of your weakness.
This forum works in a way that the latest post 'pushes up' a thread. Trolls are remarkably prolific and so 'troll threads' will consistently at the top. Ignoring doesn't work.
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This forum works in a way that the latest post 'pushes up' a thread. Trolls are remarkably prolific and so 'troll threads' will consistently at the top. Ignoring doesn't work.
Nevertheless even your post here is a form of attention seeking troll behaviour. I hope you don't think that is unnoticed. I understand your post to be somewhat benevolent but even so it has spawned a flurry of replies and has wasted people's time including my own.
Perhaps you would do better by getting in line for a moderator's position and see whether you might get to wield the whip you are threatening to bring out.
Please do read the link about internet trolls which I'm sure you will find much information of use in your struggle against the trolls on this forum. Here it is again in case you overlooked my edit
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
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TruthNevertheless even your post here is a form of attention seeking troll behaviour. I hope you don't think that is unnoticed. I understand your post to be somewhat benevolent but even so it has spawned a flurry of replies and has wasted people's time including my own.
I see. So when I call the believers including admin and moderators to stand up for what AQ calls for, a respect of God's signs, that's TROLL BEHAVIOUR? Did you delete some other verses besides 48/29 to come to that conclusion?
Perhaps you would do better by getting in line for a moderator's position and see whether you might get to wield the whip you are threatening to bring out.
I trust all the moderators are sincere people. There's no need for me to get in line for anything. Also, I've been repeating that I respect the moderators decision. If they don't have a problem with this thread, it doesnt matter in the least to me that you do.
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TruthNevertheless even your post here is a form of attention seeking troll behaviour. I hope you don't think that is unnoticed. I understand your post to be somewhat benevolent but even so it has spawned a flurry of replies and has wasted people's time including my own.
I see. So when I call the believers including admin and moderators to stand up for what AQ calls for, a respect of God's signs, that's TROLL BEHAVIOUR?
Thanks for the capitalisation but you missed the important part of the phrase which was ATTENTION SEEKING.
I trust that helps.
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Truth Thanks for the capitalisation but you missed the important part of the phrase which was ATTENTION SEEKING
Why are you resorting to Enquirer-tactics now? The fact of the matter is, I am asking for the forum to be brought more in-line with AQ. I don't give a monkeys about your 'Netiquette for Dummies', Truth. If you want to call me an ATTENTION-SEEKING TROLL, that's your business. As far as I'm concerned, this matter NEEDS attention because this forum is and can be pivotal in making people aware of AQ. As far as I'm concerned, I'm asking for something to be brought closer to AQ. Of course you'll have a problem with that since you can't spew as freely as you'd like. It's very understandable and the good news is, you will probably have just that kind of forum.
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Danish, what is your goal at this forum?
To study, understand and discuss a historical book named Quran and not to cuss it out in the name of GOD like you and your cronies do?
If you want to study and understand the entire Quran, then do so with open-mindedness, from both its internal and external relevancies and realize the fact that it is nothing more than an ancient book. No need for condemnations and inflamatory declarations to support a man-made written book. To many, especially the radically and derainged Islamic fundamentalists, this book has become another GOD or IDOL.
Do you really think your goal is compatible with the one of this forum ?
2] Please note that this forum is primarily dedicated to the study and understanding of the Scripture (Quran). Thus, mocking it or not being able to back-up claims with specifics will all result in deletion of such posts and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1704.msg20398#msg20398Peace