The Tragedy of TYRANNICAL-minds (formerly 'free-minds')
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Ugh.
Lol OM
come on give me a break will ya?, they are coming to our house degarding the Quran, what do you want us to do?, oh yeh will give them our second cheek to slap it
Salam
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Salaamun alaikum guys.
Allow me to clarify a few things ok
Jankren Everytime there is a topic regarding certain things in Al Quran, people who remind me of those arrogant and idiotic imams, who think they know better and look down on others, often come up and attack one another in shameful manner
Debates do not have to be this way. You don't need to go 'you're a thousand billion percent wrong' or 'don't mislead anyone with your arabic'. These are provocative responses. Rather, you could go 'I disagree' and move on.
However, this is NOT the issue. The issue is, very simply, that people are coming, DEFECATING or URINATING metaphorically on what the believers* consider the book of God. I use these strong words because if one aimed to clarify or criticise, one should stick around for the answers. Be responsible, not scum.
Danish (insert unintelligible response here)
Danish is a good example of a defecator. He comes with a highly provocative remark (like 'this interpretation is silly' and when one asks for definition, he uses abusive language. I don't know how the moderators still tolerate him.
S2S If all believers in quran packed up and shipped out, what would become of this forum ?
S2S, we don't need believers* to do anything if the forum itself was tightened. All we need is to do is to open AQ and ask it, what do we do in a situation like this?
Samia I totally agree with S2S. I do not understand this defeatism you are showing, mq, because that's not you. Yes, leaving, or thinking of leaving the forum is defeatism, and that's what many want that this forum collapses.So please let's not give them this opportunity
It's difficult for me to sit by and watch AQ being lied about. I already see that in many forums run by ignorant people but in FM itself, it shouldn't happen.
DanishIf only he had a "VOICE" to be heard. His aim is to ban all non-quranists
Another lie. My aim to make sure that that ALL criticisms of AQ are taken responsibility for by the critic. You sir , are the second worst person in that respect. You mud-sling AQ and then u abuse people who defend it.
DanishI wonder the same about you. (samia)
What a childish and pathetic response. Samia contributes positively to discussion unlike Danish who's here to vent.
ABthis tells me that he (danish) is very itchy and unsecure to what he believes in, you know similar to those mass killers suiciders who can't face death alone so they try to kill as many as they can with them
My guess is this too.
TayI know many people here probably have issues with any sort of behavioral "policing". But the fact of the matter is that in real life, if someone is acting like an ass, we usually walk away or start a fight. But here, it's ok to act like an ass so long as the rules aren't broken. One doesn't have to blatantly insult someone else in order to insult someone else.
I include myself in hoping that all of us people (without any label) will just take a moment to reflect on our behaviors. A spark without fuel cannot become a flame. Let's keep the fuel to a minimum and remind each other when progress is sacrificed in the name of pride.
Agreed. And I would add , AQ is something we don't play around with. I have thought about this and conclude that to be silent while insults to AQ are abound and while new people are coming and reading, thus seeing that AQ is 'vulnerable' (due to obfuscation of discussion, not actual vulnerability) is unacceptable. I ask fellow believers* to put a stop to this as far as they can.
Mehdifair enough.. it appears so far that you have a greivance with one member of the board... but this does not appear to be the only issue.. the person who are protecting in your post above on this very thread has accused me of being in a group with the member who are in grievance with... although I was not involved at all with the said argument which you guys were having etc..
Yes, that's correct, BEHAVIOURALLY insofar as behaviour is defined by the proceeding sentence, you're of the same group as Enquirer, Lote-Tree and Danish. You start out with provocative and insulting threads and refuse to discuss them amicably. Such is the work of troublemakers and just because you purport to believe in AQ, that doesnt make u any different if u behave in that way.
I've obsereved MQuran use the Quran to continue to sling accusations on those who disagree with his notions of quran... this is quran thumping... hitting another over the head with the quran and one's interrpetation.. and this just can't be good... it's not right... again.. calling a Believer a kafur is the worst of insults.. but we don't seem to curb this as much others go after members like enquirer as you mentioned above...
Kindly bring forth examples of this.
Also tell us, should we not judge AQ to judge people? What is AQ for then? Evidence please.
(prediction no evidence will be forthcoming)
Thank you OpenMind.. i understand what you mean.. cause I'm still waiting for enquierer to continue on the "conditioning" thread he started... but am not holding my breath...
And I'm still waiting for YOU to define what a sect is. You called FM 'a sect about nothing' but refused to define your terms. Are we too low to warrant your explanations?
Danish This thread was intentionally created to spark a flame (read again), not to discuss matters of the Quran but to instigate "violence" amongst its members. Mquran and a few others take deliberate and painstaking measures to politicize this forum.
I wonder this person is, really. If he was from a muslim background, wouldnt he know that AQ embraces the political ? OF COURSE IM AIMING TO POLITICISE THE FORUM. This forum was meant for us to dig deep into AQ, not for you to come, open your mouth and defecate. If I wanted to listen to abuse, I'd go to PatRobertson.com and listen to them! I want people like you to stop abusing the forum. If you have a criticism, bring it forth but STAND BY IT. If you want to be an intellectual eunuch, go somewhere else.
The above is only my view. Whatever the mods decide, I will have to stick to this.
OMWe have separate beliefs. Get rid of your agenda.
As you can see, even in this forum this guy will try to slip in his agenda. Well spotted there, Navid.
ABI really have no problem with the enemy of Islam to post their crap in here as long as they are aware that some committed believers won't let that go easy, so if they want to degrade and defame the Quran, be our gusts and we will bomb you out with ease, i hope they have enugh stamina though
.I may not like your style but I certainly agree with the stamina bit.
Free-Minders, we're not talking about freedom here. Danish and Mehdi have to come to confuse the issue so that we miss the REAL issue at hand.
DECENCY!
You want to call AQ whatever, fine. But you're then responsible. If you do not answer the questions level at you, retract or leave. Simple as.
Why do I ask for this? Because AQ says
Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of God held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme if ye did, ye would be like them. For God will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell-(4/140)
The problem here is, while you're not sitting with them, THEY COME TO SIT WITH YOU while continuing their mockery (calling Muhammad a madman and AQ a mishmash of narrations are examples). I was told by a sincere sunni friend who I asked to read FM a while back about such a situation. She said that this forum deliberately allows these people to do this to confuse issues. I was then reminded of 4/85 which says I'm part of this. This is why Im raising the issue. It's not my intention to curtail freedom of thought, only freedom of behaviour.
- believers in this context are people who believe AQ is of divine origin. Its simply for ease of conversation, not used in the quranic sense.
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If we need more proof, we are told by some of these people that their indulgence in alcohol is OK and that they find triumph from influencing people to consume alcohol. Alcohol, part of al-khamr or intoxicants is the work of ASH-SHAITAAN and we are to steer clear away from it (5/90-91). If anyone disagrees with AQ, fine but should believers be made to listen to their satanic discourses in the believer's own area?
Are you referring to this thread http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5623.0 ?
Peace
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mquran you stated in two posts...
Do not let free-minds become TYRANNICAL-minds.
and
.... I used to criticise Dr Shabbir for his draconian style but when faced with these type of guys, i think Shabbir has a lot of sense. Being kind only gives them the scent of ur blood.
So you don't want this place to become "tyrannical" and yet you advocate a "draconian" style as Shabbir practises on his insignificant corner of the virtual world. He censors all discussion that does not suit his own agenda.
I think that's what you also mean. You want this place to be "free" for you to practise your own brand of tyranny.
Your hypocrisy as always, knows no shame.
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So you don't want this place to become "tyrannical" and yet you advocate a "draconian" style as Shabbir practises on his insignificant corner of the virtual world. He censors all discussion that does not suit his own agenda.
I think that's what you also mean. You want this place to be "free" for you to practise your own brand of tyranny.
That's incorrect. Let me state my position clearly
- I welcome all criticisms of AQ
- I want those who voice the criticisms to STAND and respond. This means they need to be responsible.
Do you have a problem with this? Do you think it's ok for people to come in, insult our beliefs and get away with it?
Dr Shabbir doesn't give two cents if you respond or not. If he doesn't like what you say, he deletes you. That's why I said 'but when faced with these type of guys, i think Shabbir has a lot of sense. Not sincere people who ask and answer with equal veracity but a certain type of troublemakers. Do read carefully, Truth. No amount of bombast will help if you can't read carefully.
Your hypocrisy as always, knows no shame.
Please explain why this is hypocrisy, to ask for a decent discussion. Further, please tell me where I've been a hypocrite before.
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Here's why Truth is riled up about my call to clean up the forum
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3007.0
This is where Truth decided that a verse was FALSE and plugged all sorts of nonsense to back it up. When I asked for QURANIC EVIDENCE, he of course went silent.
Truth is just a smarter version of Enquirer, hoping to push falsehoods about AQ without feeling the need to substantiate himself.
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Here's why Truth is riled up about my call to clean up the forum
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3007.0
This is where Truth decided that a verse was FALSE and plugged all sorts of nonsense to back it up. When I asked for QURANIC EVIDENCE, he of course went silent.
Truth is just a smarter version of Enquirer, hoping to push falsehoods about AQ without feeling the need to substantiate himself.
Brother
Oben is very well exposed, he is a sick hearted muslim who have no shame
don't worry about his rants bro
Cheers
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So you don't want this place to become "tyrannical" and yet you advocate a "draconian" style as Shabbir practises on his insignificant corner of the virtual world. He censors all discussion that does not suit his own agenda.
I think that's what you also mean. You want this place to be "free" for you to practise your own brand of tyranny.
That's incorrect. Let me state my position clearly
- I welcome all criticisms of AQ
- I want those who voice the criticisms to STAND and respond. This means they need to be responsible.
Do you have a problem with this? Do you think it's ok for people to come in, insult our beliefs and get away with it?
Dr Shabbir doesn't give two cents if you respond or not. If he doesn't like what you say, he deletes you. That's why I said 'but when faced with these type of guys, i think Shabbir has a lot of sense. Not sincere people who ask and answer with equal veracity but a certain type of troublemakers. Do read carefully, Truth. No amount of bombast will help if you can't read carefully.
Your hypocrisy as always, knows no shame.
Please explain why this is hypocrisy, to ask for a decent discussion. Further, please tell me where I've been a hypocrite before.
mquran,
My criticism is towards your contradictory statements on the one hand advocating freedom of thought and on the other advocating the abhorrent censorship and "draconian" policies in place at Shabbir's forum which I am totally opposed to. He has a barrow to push, and I feel that your contradictory double-talk is unfortunately compromising the validity of your premise.
You are being hypocritical by advocating a tyrannical approach to stamp out supposed tyranny.
Here are my suggestions to those who are frustrated by the 'defecators'.
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Don't reply with a page or more of material to a single line or paragraph from these 'defecators'.
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Be aware of 'troll' behaviour. If you know anything about forums you'll know there are trolls. The best way to stop these trolls is to stop feeding them. I am amazed how many times people continually take the bait hook, line and sinker. Consider whether you have simply become a victim of trolling behaviour.
It is unfortunate that the trolls will 'defecate' on many worthwhile discussions and disrupt them. To fall for their traps is a sign of your weakness.
Please read more about trolls on wikipedia and learn what constitutes trolling behaviour.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
Please read that and see how much of the 'trouble' here is actually just unrecognised (by the naive members) trolling behaviour.
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Truth My criticism is towards your contradictory statements on the one hand advocating freedom of thought and on the other advocating the abhorrent censorship and "draconian" policies in place at Shabbir's forum which I am totally opposed to. He has a barrow to push, and I feel that your contradictory double-talk is unfortunately compromising the validity of your premise.
Wow, I can understand needing to explain this to Enquirer but to you? I'm VERY surprised. Ok, one more time for posterity
I do not care what people believe. I DO care about what I'm participating in. If I'm going to be 'sitting' with people who talk about AQ, I will expect AQ to be treated well. This is why I'm here instead of in some right-wing Christian forum.
Shabbir has a barrow to push, sure but you think you're barrow-free? Maybe you're asking some carte blanche to push YOUR agenda, who knows? The only way to determine this is to test veracity. If you something to say, back it up. Don't give us hot air and run. That's a sign for intellectual flatulence. And if I know you, you don't like that.
You are being hypocritical by advocating a tyrannical approach to stamp out supposed tyranny.
According to whom? AQ tells us to wipe out fasad fil ardh, mischief in the earth. Is this tyranny or a valid response?
Once again for the people who constantly miss my point
I'm asking for ETHICS IN DISCUSSION. Say what you want BUT BACK IT UP. Lets keep this forum Quranic and not full of the stuff coming through here.
Obviously, this is a suggestion which carries no weight until backed up by Admin and Mods.
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Truth Here are my suggestions to those who are frustrated by the 'defecators'.
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Don't reply with a page or more of material to a single line or paragraph from these 'defecators'.
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Be aware of 'troll' behaviour. If you know anything about forums you'll know there are trolls. The best way to stop these trolls is to stop feeding them. I am amazed how many times people continually take the bait hook, line and sinker. Consider whether you have simply become a victim of trolling behaviour.
It is unfortunate that the trolls will 'defecate' on many worthwhile discussions and disrupt them. To fall for their traps is a sign of your weakness.
This forum works in a way that the latest post 'pushes up' a thread. Trolls are remarkably prolific and so 'troll threads' will consistently at the top. Ignoring doesn't work.
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This forum works in a way that the latest post 'pushes up' a thread. Trolls are remarkably prolific and so 'troll threads' will consistently at the top. Ignoring doesn't work.
Nevertheless even your post here is a form of attention seeking troll behaviour. I hope you don't think that is unnoticed. I understand your post to be somewhat benevolent but even so it has spawned a flurry of replies and has wasted people's time including my own.
Perhaps you would do better by getting in line for a moderator's position and see whether you might get to wield the whip you are threatening to bring out.
Please do read the link about internet trolls which I'm sure you will find much information of use in your struggle against the trolls on this forum. Here it is again in case you overlooked my edit
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
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TruthNevertheless even your post here is a form of attention seeking troll behaviour. I hope you don't think that is unnoticed. I understand your post to be somewhat benevolent but even so it has spawned a flurry of replies and has wasted people's time including my own.
I see. So when I call the believers including admin and moderators to stand up for what AQ calls for, a respect of God's signs, that's TROLL BEHAVIOUR? Did you delete some other verses besides 48/29 to come to that conclusion?
Perhaps you would do better by getting in line for a moderator's position and see whether you might get to wield the whip you are threatening to bring out.
I trust all the moderators are sincere people. There's no need for me to get in line for anything. Also, I've been repeating that I respect the moderators decision. If they don't have a problem with this thread, it doesnt matter in the least to me that you do.
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TruthNevertheless even your post here is a form of attention seeking troll behaviour. I hope you don't think that is unnoticed. I understand your post to be somewhat benevolent but even so it has spawned a flurry of replies and has wasted people's time including my own.
I see. So when I call the believers including admin and moderators to stand up for what AQ calls for, a respect of God's signs, that's TROLL BEHAVIOUR?
Thanks for the capitalisation but you missed the important part of the phrase which was ATTENTION SEEKING.
I trust that helps.
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Truth Thanks for the capitalisation but you missed the important part of the phrase which was ATTENTION SEEKING
Why are you resorting to Enquirer-tactics now? The fact of the matter is, I am asking for the forum to be brought more in-line with AQ. I don't give a monkeys about your 'Netiquette for Dummies', Truth. If you want to call me an ATTENTION-SEEKING TROLL, that's your business. As far as I'm concerned, this matter NEEDS attention because this forum is and can be pivotal in making people aware of AQ. As far as I'm concerned, I'm asking for something to be brought closer to AQ. Of course you'll have a problem with that since you can't spew as freely as you'd like. It's very understandable and the good news is, you will probably have just that kind of forum.
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Danish, what is your goal at this forum?
To study, understand and discuss a historical book named Quran and not to cuss it out in the name of GOD like you and your cronies do?
If you want to study and understand the entire Quran, then do so with open-mindedness, from both its internal and external relevancies and realize the fact that it is nothing more than an ancient book. No need for condemnations and inflamatory declarations to support a man-made written book. To many, especially the radically and derainged Islamic fundamentalists, this book has become another GOD or IDOL.
Do you really think your goal is compatible with the one of this forum ?
2] Please note that this forum is primarily dedicated to the study and understanding of the Scripture (Quran). Thus, mocking it or not being able to back-up claims with specifics will all result in deletion of such posts and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1704.msg20398#msg20398Peace
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MQuran you ask me to bring forth an example of how you Quran thump.. the example is self evident (just as said before to you) in your own posts even on this thread alone... by using your own point of view you just jumbled up 4 members of this board, myself, enquirer, lote-tree, and danish... and have piegoned holed us into a group of people which you simply disagree with.. which in itself would be just fine.. but rather than just disagree, you sling dirt and insults such as calling kafir.. mohammadan etc.. (just as you have on this very thread)... and you work to demonize those who you disagree with.. while all of this is your own point of view.. you use your personal understanding of the Quran to justify your zeal to defame another human being...
Lie. Mehdi, do you get off on lying or does just your capacity to understand extend up to there?
I've never used the word 'kafir' to describe any of the 4 people you mention above. Kindly prove me wrong if you're truthful.
To me, judging with AQ, a 'kafir' must act with kufr in my horizons.
I consider you 4 people (or 3, since Enquirer and Lote-tree could well be the same person) as trouble-makers. You're not here to further discussions but to cause mischief. You're 'sect about nothing' rubbish is good evidence for this.
I disagree with this behaviour of yours... i find it to be overly common with religious zealouts of this world... also politicians such as GW Bush etc.. who are constantly saying you are either with me or against me... etc... your behaviour is no different than a bible thumper... except you use the Quran...
Another lie. I disagree with Kyle on a lot of his points, but I have no problem with him because he understands ETIQUETTE of discussion. He doesn't run like you guys or find gratification in provoking people like you do. So do quit these untruths, Mehdi.
I understand that you 'try' and judge others from the Guidence of Quran... however this has always been my point.. the quick trigger judgements that you make... are not fair nor are they rightous... your judgements are your own however you attempt to make them universal by applying your own interpetation of the Quran to them! (thus how you hide behind the Quran while simply insulting those who you disagree with)... this is where your behaviour starts to appear arrogant... and Quran thumping...
I judge the posters behaviour insofar as their effect on the forum. Of course, it would be my interpretation but what would you rather I evaluate the situation with? Jerry Seinfeld's philosophy?
You came and tried to strut your feathers last year with your 'sect about nothing' malarkey. Let me ask you, according to AQ, how would you judge YOUR behaviour? Provide evidence, ok.
also in your own use of language at times.. one can see your over confident self image, as well as your attempts to seperate Believers in seperate groups... the example of this on this thread has been the seperation and demonizing of 5 individuals (which is an classic MQuran witch hunt) and the use of "US" and "WE" which would shows you are too much involved with and intrested in seperating the Ummah into groups than intrested in bringing a form of Unity... as we see here
This is what comes when we judge according to Mehdi-muhammadanism. Wake up , Mehdi, there's no ummah here. This is how 'sect about nothing' came out. There's a group of people who get together in a forum to discuss. Some of us want to dig deep into AQ, other want to pretend as if they're Jerry Seinfeld's incarnation.
as before when it comes to sects... one criteria of being a sect is one which rejoyces in itself! meaning... one which feels that itself is the only right one... and by that it exludes others... and by that the sect demonizes others... this behaviour is simply working to seperate humans.. rather than Uniting...
Well done, well done. Only took a year. Tell me, what word in AQ corresponds with this please?
here you go.. once more I've taken the time to sit here and type out for you my sincere point of view.. you can accept it.. or you can not.. it is up to you.. but I will say... that I will not go round and round with you ... do as you wish.. but just make sure you're hungry.. cause by continuing to behave as you do.. slandering and demfaming... accusing your borthers and sisters as such.. you just might be eating allot of flesh of your dead brother.. 4912 (and as you demand explanations all of the time... your calling your brothers and sisters kafir.. mohammadan etc. is only a suspicious act on your own part for it's Allah that knows best not MQuran)
So far, I have spoken what I consider to be the truth. People have verified my claim that certain people have behaved inappropriately in this forum. If you're unhappy with that, the good news is, you're likely to continue to enjoy a chaotic forum where guys like you can continue to enjoy your verbal masturbation.
'Brothers and sisters' are defined in AQ by behaviour. You don't put on a 'muslim' name and suddenly you're my brother. Please do start reading AQ instead of that sunni stuff you keep peddling.
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Clearly you don't understand the concept of admission. You ADMITTED to coming here and causing fitna. So how am I supposed to judge u then?
Its different if u came and said 'AQ said follow hadith'. I couldnt possibly call you anything then but if it came from your mouth, what other evidence do I need?
Do you DENY saying that you aimed to cause chaos with your thread?
Next, where is the evidence for your usage of the word 'sect'. Do you consider AQ the criteria ? If so, bring forward your evidence.
Lastly, please tell me how to evaluate people ACCORDING TO AQ? I await your answers, sir.
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MehdiI'm happy to see that my lil mustard seed has grown into so much mustard that all the weenies of the board felt like dipping themselves into it. rotfl
He's happy to cause fitna and he's still here to uphold the freedom to cause fitna. Open up your AQ's and look it up, who are these people?
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Mehdilook bro.. it's clear that my point regarding how you insult others has been made.. as you see you have even been temp. banned because of it... this was my why i jumped into this thread..
as for sects.. fitna... hadith..etc.. i have no problems conversing with you mquran.. except that i find you will never be satified with my point of view.. your accusation of me "peddling sunni stuff" is so far off of it's mark.. that it is very clear to me that there is very little value in discussing these with you..
you keep accusing me of many things.. which are simply not true.. one of your accusations is my name.. i've told you before.. i am iranian.. what do you think my name really is Mquran? this is an accusation which you have no proof of... however you keep making it.. why?
lets start here..
peace...
Sorry had to repost here with your previous post since you deleted it.Don't worry about ethnic origin and stuff since I don't believe unless I can verify. If you choose to be in peace, I will accept your peace and offer my peace. Grouping you with the axis-of-quran-rejectors was just because of how you guys discuss. If you discuss amicably, how could you be of that group?
That's all Im asking for here responsible, amicable discussion.