New Calendar Article
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Peace Layth,
I have been able to re-write the calendar article after the recent discussions on the issue.
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/calendars.htmLet me just make a couple of quick comments about the following part at the beginning of the article
However, since the unique phases of the moon repeat in a mirror image of each other, it can be argued that in any given month there are 'two crescents' and therefore two beginnings or two months. This matter is resolved by the Scripture detailing that it is the 'return' to the same image/stage that we are to be concerned with, thus making the count of a month from waxing crescent to the next waking crescent.
"And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns to being like an old curved sheath." (3639)
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The full-moon doesn't repeat. Hence, it can be used to time the cycle. From full-moon to full-moon is one cycle without any ambiguity.
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According to 3639, the moon returns like an old curved sheath. It is a fact that an old curved sheath depending on the position you look at it can be left handed or right handed so an old curved sheath can be either the waxing or the waning crescent. The choice of the waxing crescent as the start is haphazard. From one "old curved sheath" to the next "old curved sheath" is NEVER a lunar cycle. It is either 20 days (end of waxing crescent to beginning of waning crescent) or 25 days (beginning of waxing crescent to beginning of waning crescent) or 6 days (beginning of waning crescent to beginning of waxing crescent) or 2 days (end of waning crescent to beginning of waxing crescent).
Those basic premises need to be worked out because the rest of the article is built on them.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam Layth
I have one commnt to make, you stated that Ramadan means scorching heat, which I agree that this is what it means in addition to the other meaning which is a NAME of a month like your name and my name,
however you stated later
"Those who have remained behind are content with their position behind God's messenger, and they disliked to strive with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they Say "Do not march out in the heat." Say "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand." (981)
during the four restricted months to those who have set-up partners and had broken their treaties. 95 told us that these people who did not repent at the end of the four months would be fought. 981 tells us that those who went out to fight with the prophet were being told by those who remained behind that they should stay and not go fight now as it was 'very hot' for marching out.
Therefore, the obvious conclusion that can be drawn is that the four restricted months precede the month of Ramadhan (which has already been identified as the first lunar crescent that occurs on or after the summer solstice).
Pilgrimage/Restricted 1 ---> Restricted 2 ---> Restricted 3 ---> Restricted 4 ---> Ramadhan
which makes sense to a degree considering consider that the scorching heat of the summer season most likely will be the second month of its three months period, however 981 never mentioned marchig in scorching heat, it only said "Harr"
(81)So how the word "Harr" can mean "scorching heat", I thought that "Harr Shadid" should mean that?, in fact in the same verse we read see Jahannam being decribed as "Ashadu Harran", which implies "scorching heat"
So do you agree that the word "Harr" does not explicitly mean "scorching heat"?
cheers
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Peace Ahmed,
So how the word "Harr" can mean "scorching heat", I thought that "Harr Shadid" should mean that?, in fact in the same verse we read see Jahannam being decribed as "Ashadu Harran", which implies "scorching heat"
So do you agree that the word "Harr" does not explicitly mean "scorching heat"?
I am not sure that you can make a comparrison between the heat of Jeahanam with the heat of this world. The heat of Jahanam is far greater than this world as it cooks the skin (456), thus it is by all measures
ashadu harran.However, you are correct that
harcan be simplyhotand notscorching heat.Dear Ayman,
. According to 3639, the moon returns like an old curved sheath. It is a fact that an old curved sheath depending on the position you look at it can be left handed or right handed so an old curved sheath can be either the waxing or the waning crescent. The choice of the waxing crescent as the start is haphazard. From one "old curved sheath" to the next "old curved sheath" is NEVER a lunar cycle. It is either 20 days (end of waxing crescent to beginning of waning crescent) or 25 days (beginning of waxing crescent to beginning of waning crescent) or 6 days (beginning of waning crescent to beginning of waxing crescent) or 2 days (end of waning crescent to beginning of waxing crescent).
The key in this verses is the word
returns(and not simplycurved sheath). For something to return means it goes back to where it was. Thus, if the moon begins at the waxing curved sheath then the count is until itreturnsto that same waxing curved sheath (and not its mirror image as that does not constitute a return). -
Peace Layth
The key in this verses is the word
returns(and not simplycurved sheath). For something to return means it goes back to where it was. Thus, if the moon begins at the waxing curved sheath then the count is until itreturnsto that same waxing curved sheath (and not its mirror image as that does not constitute a return).The exact expression is "return like an old curved sheath". If we observe "old curved sheaths", they can be left handed or right handed. If we assume that "return like an old curved sheath" actually means "return like exactly the same left or right handed old curved sheath", this could be either the waxing or the waning crescents since both equally return every cycle. The choice of the waxing crescent is haphazard. On the other hand, "manazil" (descents) indicating the shape descending to return as an "old curved sheath" definitely points to the waning crescent regardless of the fact that "old curved sheaths" can be left or right handed. I also don't think that it is a coincidence that the process described in 3639 when "descents" (manazil) is taken into account lasts exactly 10 days from full-moon to waning crescent. This is consistent with 2189 and 2185 because this interpretation allows the crescent to time the 10 day period of fasting and "hajj". On the other hand, it is impossible for the new waxing moon to be used to time a 10 day period (which we agree on).
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaams,
so much work/research i hope that people here arn't expecting the members to start using the moon for timing instead of the modern day atomic clocks.
It would be like using the camels instead of the modern day transport ! i think.
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Gods Blessings on us all.
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Brother,
so much work/research i hope that people here arn't expecting the members to start using the moon for timing instead of the modern day atomic clocks.
It would be like using the camels instead of the modern day transport ! i think.
There is no farmer that uses atomic clocks to time anything and even the most modern nations don't use atomic clocks to determine when the seasons change. Atomic clocks CANNOT be used to time seasons or events such as the summer solstice. If you note the time on the atomic clock this year for the summer solstice and then note the same time next year, it will not be the summer solstice. This is due to the procession of the equinox, so after many years, the solstice will gradually be a few days earlier, while atomic clocks are based on fixed time intervals.
Peace,
Ayman
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Brother,
so much work/research i hope that people here arn't expecting the members to start using the moon for timing instead of the modern day atomic clocks.
It would be like using the camels instead of the modern day transport ! i think.
There is no farmer that uses atomic clocks to time anything and even the most modern nations don't use atomic clocks to determine when the seasons change. Atomic clocks CANNOT be used to time seasons or events such as the summer solstice. If you note the time on the atomic clock this year for the summer solstice and then note the same time next year, it will not be the summer solstice. This is due to the procession of the equinox, so after many years, the solstice will gradually be a few days earlier, while atomic clocks are based on fixed time intervals.
Peace,
Ayman
summer solstice - i don't think God wanted us to be pagans in disguise!
http//www.tarotmania.co.uk/pages/Solstice.html
http//www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/festivals/summer_solstice.shtml
Show us which pig farmers in the west use the moon for any callender system Br.
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Salaams. -
Peace Simple,
summer solstice - i don't think God wanted us to be pagans in disguise!
http//www.tarotmania.co.uk/pages/Solstice.html
http//www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/festivals/summer_solstice.shtml
Show us which pig farmers in the west use the moon for any callender system Br.Everyone uses the seasons to time things. Whether you know it or not, you use the seasons which are marked by the solstices and equinoxes. For example, when you decide to go on vacation and go to the beach in the SUMMER. Does this make you a pagan?
I am sure that animals who use the seasons to time their mating and birthing seasons, etc. are not pagan.
Farmers have naturally used the moon and continue to use the moon to this day to time things such as harvests. Haven't you heard of the expression "harvest moon"? They do this because it is a natural cosmic event that can be used for timing by everyone regardless of whether they have an atomic clock or not. This makes it more robust and universal than "atomic clocks", plus it is free.
According to your logic, an atomic clock is more "pagan" than such natural timing devices. A clock relies on dividing the day into 24 arbitrary manmade divisions. Such arbitrary number of divisions have their roots in ancient Egyptian pagan customs
http//homepage.mac.com/pete.boardman/24hourclock/images/senmut-ceiling.jpg
In fact, unlike the arbitrary manmade 24 hour divisions in your clock, the solstices and the sun and the moon would continue to exist with or without humans.
Let me make things clear, there is nothing wrong with an arbitrary timeframe, whether it is dividing the day into 24 divisions or the year into 52 weeks, if people simply take it as a matter of convenience. The problem is when people take such manmade arbitrary timeframes as somehow sanctioned by The God. This is what makes anything "pagan".
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaams Br. Ayman,
The problem is when people take such manmade arbitrary timeframes as somehow sanctioned by The God. This is what makes anything "pagan".
That is what i am saying that there is no calendar in the quran sanctioned by the Allmighty.
We can use any system so long as we are more righteouse-whether it is a hindu system or a snail trail.
)
Gods Blessings.
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Peace Simple,
The problem is when people take such manmade arbitrary timeframes as somehow sanctioned by The God. This is what makes anything "pagan".
That is what i am saying that there is no calendar in the quran sanctioned by the Allmighty.
We can use any system so long as we are more righteouse-whether it is a hindu system or a snail trail.I agree. The issue is not about any calendar system. The issue is about using natural cosmic phenomena and not manmade calendars for the timing of the hunting restriction (see 51, 594-96) for the preservation of wildlife, which is solar in nature.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman, all
Please please please let us not get distracted with arguments.
I for one wish to know the exact period Allah decreed for fasting so that when my health allows I will do it and get my reward.
Plus I agree that cosmological phenomenon transcend our lives, they are Laws of Physics.
Paganism is based on emotions and distortions in interpretations of the facts.
Salam
Noble
PS For now, I am still more convinced that the full moon should be used to time the beginning of a month as opposed to the crescent. -
Salaam Aymen and Layth
Posted by ayman
Insert Quote
Peace LaythQuote from Layth on Today at 013235 AM
The key in this verses is the wordreturns(and not simplycurved sheath). For something to return means it goes back to where it was. Thus, if the moon begins at the waxing curved sheath then the count is until itreturnsto that same waxing curved sheath (and not its mirror image as that does not constitute a return).I have been following your interesting discussion on this thread and on another, and I noticed that you are still arguing about the verse 3639
mainly the verb . I think that this verb here means "became" . If you read the verses where or are used meaning "to return; restart" youwill notice that there is no ambiguity as to show where the beginning was. -
Salam Samia,
I have been following your interesting discussion on this thread and on another, and I noticed that you are still arguing about the verse 3639
mainly the verb . I think that this verb here means "became" . If you read the verses where or are used meaning "to return; restart" youwill notice that there is no ambiguity as to show where the beginning was.Thank you for your excellent observation. I agree that the word "3ad" does mean "became" when no beginning is given.
Peace,
Ayman
