Muhammad's Sunnah
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Bro Ahmed,
This statement really scared me, and convinces me even more to keep away from Hadith altogether. Better safe than sorry...Salam bro
Exactly, so what excuse the hadith rejectors will say to Allah if they should follow what the prophet delivered and was not included in the Quran (Quran explanations, Hikmah and other things that we didn?t know)?
Well 4113, 2151 and 1664 will be a very strong argument against them
For me if I shouldn?t follow what the prophet delivered and was not included in the Quran (Quran explanations, Hikmah and other things that we didn?t know), then I will have a strong argument to my Creator using His own words 4113, 2151 and 1664 in my defence
So who may be sorry than safe?
Bro Ahmed
The Shia also agree on what they have to do, and are in fact more united into it than the sunnis, this does not mean they are correct, just that they are good followers, which is not a guarantee for truth, we cannot say the truth of that group is the best truth because they do not contradict one another...I?m sorry bro, you missed my point, I was talking about the basics like Salat and Sawm
Can you please tell me how many compulsory Salat you do a day and their times and from where you got the info, thanks?
I already find what is in the Al Quran pretty heavy to follow,
Of course but again, it is not covering every aspect of our life and we need to take the prophets as examples
and we want to add extra bits to it like Hadith.
that is your twisting by saying ?WE NEED TO ADD TO IT?, why you classify it as such?, did we add to it anything or the prophet elaborated on it in human words as being directed by Allah? and yet not included in the book to be classified as Hikmah being added to it so I wonder why you say that, is anything you learn in life that is wise and not included in the Quran will be considered an addition to the Quran?
I think, anyway for me, that going back to basics and unlearning all that poison I learnt from Hadith in the past 20 years, then implement what is in Quran from fresh is a better attitude...
Salam Bros
NobleGlad I don?t have that poison because when the haditn was introduced to me I realized from day one that I have to filter the non sense out of it using my own mind then hold the rest as mere teaching from a great man and this happened years and years ago
Salam
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The Qur'an says to follow Muhammad's sunnah, I'm curious to understand this movement of GOD ALONE, can someone help me out?
As Salaamu Alaykum Salah ad din
I believe my new link will directly answer your question exposing the false hadiyth
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/hadiythexposed.htm
Salaam
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Peace Bro ahmed
We are deadlocked again.
It is ok, I do not mind, we live in a free society
Salat and Sawm have nothing to do with Hadith.
I do not complain that Hadith about the Prophet have reached us. It is great to get some insight onto how the Prophet met some of the challenges he faced in his time.
I do believe however that it was not his intention that they would reach us.
Some of the worst fitnahs we are having are because of these hadiths... Many times because we try to apply them out of the context in which the Prophet dealt with issues in his time.
Now we have our time, and we need to find out how to best deal with the issues that face us. Not doing that is really criminal and takes away from us the ability to respond to the very sophisticated challenges and threats of this era.
The Al-Quran is the unifying source, and I now realise it since I am understanding it better.
You are making a big mistake in your views, but you are free to do so...
I can make up Hadith myself that do not contradict the Al Quran, not contradicting the Al Quran is not enough a criterion.
It is easy to write about views and concepts with a cup of tea, in a warm cosy place, while people are suffering in the third world because of this type of ignorance currently the muslims are advocating.
Salam
Noble
PS I pray five salats a day, but am open to another number, and am currently looking into the evidence... -
Many thanks Adley, peace
Sorry al Quraisyi, thanks adley
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Peace Bro ahmed
We are deadlocked again.Peace mate
to be honest, I'm not sure what we are deadlocked on, I thought of you as one of those Muslims who use their minds to filter the hadith, not to disregard it regardlless?
It is ok, I do not mind, we live in a free society
so if we live in the middle east we will have a problem?
Salat and Sawm have nothing to do with Hadith.
being as compulsory yes, but regarding how to perform it, of course it has everything to do with the prophet recorded hadith
can you please tell me how we can start fasting by identifyng the white Khait "Thread" from the black thread at the dawn time?, thanks
I do not complain that Hadith about the Prophet have reached us. It is great to get some insight onto how the Prophet met some of the challenges he faced in his time.
that is what I thought of you
what is your problem then?
I do believe however that it was not his intention that they would reach us.
intention of Mohammad?
if so, then what is the relevence exactly that it was or was not?
He never prohibited the hadith about him indeed, he only prohibited to write a book and hold it as the Quran, if later on, after his death they documented what they heard of him then what is wrong with that? there are many Muslims who hold the hadith as mere teachings and they follow what is being qualfied by the Quran
Some of the worst fitnahs we are having are because of these hadiths...
I agree, but to take a stand of totally writing it off is non reasonable act according to 4113, 2151 and 1664
Many times because we try to apply them out of the context in which the Prophet dealt with issues in his time.
I can't see any problem in applying any hadith that can be qualified by the quran and the common sense
Now we have our time, and we need to find out how to best deal with the issues that face us.
that is one of the main things that I'm campaigninig for, we need to redo what they have done 250 years after the prophet death which is to compile the hadith to avoid the fitnah, now we have 1250 years of experience and we can deal with this serious matter far better and far smartly
Not doing that is really criminal and takes away from us the ability to respond to the very sophisticated challenges and threats of this era.
not sure what you mean bro?
The Al-Quran is the unifying source, and I now realise it since I am understanding it better.
of course it is, but I'm sure many things were delibertly for the prophet to explain it, I believe it is all part of the test to believe in the prophet.
You are making a big mistake in your views, but you are free to do so...
ok, and what that mistake is exactly? that I use my mind to filter the hadith then hold it as mere teaching from a great man and the last prophet?
I can make up Hadith myself that do not contradict the Al Quran, not contradicting the Al Quran is not enough a criterion.
great and if you do and it does not contradict the common sense as well, I will hold it as great teaching from a mortal man like you and will even promote it
It is easy to write about views and concepts with a cup of tea, in a warm cosy place, while people are suffering in the third world because of this type of ignorance currently the muslims are advocating.
Salam
Noblesorry again, I'm not sure what you mean
we have many types of muslims, can you be specific please?
PS I pray five salats a day, but am open to another number, and am currently looking into the evidence...
sorry, why you pray 5 times, would not that be shirk if you are following a teaching from the prophet?
and I'm really puzzled by your comment that you are open to change it?, well, so if someone came and convinced you that we should pray 2 times a day, would you do it after being convinced? and in this case wouldn't you be following that man instead of another man who convinced others to pray 5 times a day?
I will give you another example to make a bit puzzly
R K the main founder of the Quran alone followers says there are 5 salats a day and he confirmed it with code 19
many other Quran alone followers say they are 2
others of them say they are 3
and others have totally different concept of the salat
who you think is right?
and do you think we have been doing it wrong "Salat" for 1400 years
Cheers
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Peace Bro Ahmed
You make me smile
From what you are telling me, you are a sunnist, even if you do not want to admit it. I do not mind though because I try not to be extreme in my views and pigeon-hole people into boxes.
From my understanding so far in the Al Quran, it seems the Salat is 3 times a day. I believe the Prophet after shuura made it five times a day. The Prophet in particular in the beginnings of the revelation used to pray far more.
I personally used to pray at one stage for many years the following Fajr, Subh, Shuruk, Dhoha, Sunnata AlDhuhr, Salat Aldhuhr, Sunnata Aldhuhr, Sunnata AlAsr, Salat AlAsr, Sunnata AlMaghrib, Salata Almaghrib, Sunnata Almaghrib, Sunnata AlIsha, Salat AlIsha, Qyiamu Alail, Alshif', Alwitr (over 17 salats)
In the 250 years after the death of Muhammed (I call the 200 years after the death of Ali the years of abomination), many matters were changed, complications coming from new cultures embracing Islam, a lot of influences coming from the Iranians particularly, and from greedy and unprincipled rulers...
The way to measure the years was also changed, (the Month of Ramadhan was not changing backwards every year by ten days). The correct calendar is not pure lunar but lunar solar.
It is very easy to falsify records in the beginning of an empire, especially if you have a weapon such as religion, and a strong army behind you...
There is a lot of work to be done to correct all that...
Otherwise...
Again Mate you are severely mistaken, make amends before it is too late.
I will pray for you...
Salam
Noble -
cheers noble I hoped though that you use the quran to refute back, however I would prefer to leave it at that
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Salaam all
Ahmed wrote
Not sure what Hawdan means but it sound like a nice place in Jannah
I just can't believe it! Never heard of (hawd wadil nil The river Nile basin)?
then he stated the hadith that whoever lies about the prophet will have a secured seat in hell
You have omitted one word (intentionally). You see how important it is? If you omitted it intentionally, it makes you dishonest, if you omitted it unintentionally, you are not that dishonest, but just an error. But who cares if they lie intentionally or unintentionally? The result is the same, whereas their intentions are for God to decide.
The translation is "whoever lied intentionally about the prophet will...."
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Salaam all
Ahmed wrote
Not sure what Hawdan means but it sound like a nice place in Jannah
I just can't believe it! Never heard of (hawd wadil nil The river Nile basin)?
then he stated the hadith that whoever lies about the prophet will have a secured seat in hell
You have omitted one word (intentionally). You see how important it is? If you omitted it intentionally, it makes you dishonest, if you omitted it unintentionally, you are not that dishonest, but just an error. But who cares if they lie intentionally or unintentionally? The result is the same, whereas their intentions are for God to decide.
The translation is "whoever lied intentionally about the prophet will...."
Hi
actually Hawdan means "Basin"
that is why I didn't know what they mean
I guess if themean that it is a river then he would have said it that he have a river in Jannah
Regarding Hawd Wadi Al Nil. we actually never refer to it as such
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Peace all,
The issues raised on this thread have been addressed extensively in the past and there is no sense in anyone repeating old and tired fallacious Sunni arguments. Even Sunnis on other intellectual Islamic forums have started to avoid using Hadiths to prove any point because they have come to realize the cans of worms that relying on Hadiths opens up for them.
The old arguments of Hadith being the "hikma"/wisdom and Hadith giving the details about Sunni rituals Hadith, etc. are based on silent assumptions that Hadith defenders make out of ignorance and out of blindly parrotting the Sunni religious establishment line.
Those silent assumptions are easily exposed if you press any Sunni to provide the Hadiths that give the 2,4,4,3,4 Sunni prayer formula. This is the most basic mechanic of the Sunni ritual and yet they will never be able to give such Hadiths because they simply don't exist. So the entire argument of Hadiths being necessary to know such rituals is an argument made out of ignorance.
The other silent assumption is that Hadiths are the direct words of the messenger. They are not. They are the hearsay that some people such as Bukhari decided to convey to us. They have nothing to do with the messenger except in the minds of naive wishful thinking people. It is ironic that the earlier Hadith collectors knew this very well. Thus, in earlier Hadith collections such as Musnad Abd El Razaq and others, you don't find any Hadith that goes to the prophet. Even in later Hadith collections such as the Muwatta of Malek you find that the vast majority of Hadiths don't have complete Isnad (chains of transmission). In fact, no one is really sure who wrote the Muwattaa or when exactly and there are several versions of it that differ significantly. So people during that time knew very well that Hadiths couldn't be traced to the prophet. It is only in much later Hadith collections such as those of Bukhari that we suddenly start seeing complete Isnads appearing out of nowhere. One would have expected the converse, namely that earlier Hadith collections, which are closer to the fact would have more complete Isnad than later ones. However, it is only in later times that Hadiths and their Isnads became important and demand for perfect Isnads grew and of course the natural law of supply and demand took over and this is what created the supply of perfect Isnads. It is not that people somehow revived the dead and were able to complete the Isnad.
There are many more silent assumptions that Hadith defenders make because of their ignorance of the historical evolution of Hadiths as part of the larger literary movement during the Abbassid era, the content of Hadiths, and the nature of hearsay.
This makes Hadiths completely useless as far as conveying any historical information about the time of the prophet. At best perhaps some Hadiths can be used as an indicator for the kinds of religious discussions going on during the Abbassid era since people brought those Hadiths to support some of their discussions.
Peace,
Ayman
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peace,
in order for a book to be fully detailed it does not need another book to add extra detail (or guidance),
the Promise of God Almighty to protect the Quran eliminted an arguament of conjecture against the book, thus we are bluntly announced not to follow any bit of conjecture.
does the hadiths have that promise on it?
was there a division of faith due to hadiths?
is there instructional hadiths that are recognized by one group but not recognized by the other?
when certain hadiths were declared authentic; who declared it's authenticity? was a messenger of God present during this authenticating process? was there even a man from the time of the last prophet present during this authenticating period? does any man thats not a prophet of God have authority to authenticate God's guidance?with the exeption of Mohammed (may peace be upon him) warners warned there own nation, like Jesus(peace be upon him) was sent to the children of Israel, Lot to the people of Sodom and Gomorra and so on..... Mohammed (peace be upon him) the last prophet of God through God's mercy on us delivered an incorruptable (through Gods protection and promise) book of revelation (the Quran) thats meant for all mankind.
the Quran had God Willed could have came down all in one instance, but it came down gradually (that is the way God Willed). what we sometimes forget is that the earliest believers were progressively recieving guidance over many years stage by stage,
the people addressed in this verse were the then present day Meccans
062.002
SHAKIR He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,"teaches them the Book" is progressive, becuase the whole book has'nt all been sent to them yet,
the allusion of future revelation / guidance not yet reveiled to them may be the Wisdom,"teaches you that which ye knew not" from 2151
may be the knowledge of knowing you were in clear error before.God knows best.
peace, ex
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Peace Ayman
It is a very hard thing for people to let go of their old paradigm, of any faith or creed, be it a Christian or a sunni/shia moving to true monotheism. But letting go of Hadith is a must for advancement.
I actually can see in myself how brainwashed I was, and it takes great effort and focus to stay tuned with the message in The Quran on its own.
It is extraordinary how it is hard to just focus on Allah alone without any other preconceived filters. This is the nature of how great this test is...
Take care Bro
Noble out -
Peace be upon you
On the argument of "He teaches you what you don't know" I believe the following verses could be important
11 49 Yusuf Ali
Such are some of the stories of the Unseen which We have revealed unto thee before this neither thou nor thy People knew them. So persevere patiently for the End is for those who are righteous.
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Peace,
Yes warner is already gave all examples in this post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6597.msg101609#msg101609
The Quran explains itself...
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Peace be upon you
On the argument of "He teaches you what you don't know" I believe the following verses could be important
11 49 Yusuf Ali
Such are some of the stories of the Unseen which We have revealed unto thee before this neither thou nor thy People knew them. So persevere patiently for the End is for those who are righteous.
Peace bro
So what you are saying that "He teaches you what you don't know" means the stories of the unseen mentioned in the Quran, hmmm, well this doesn't add up acccording to the Quran alone idology for the following reasons
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the verb is "Teaches" and not "Recites", i.e these teachings should be the prophet elaborations on those verses, i.e. it is called the Hadith, therefore your understanding means that you have to accept the hadith
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If he is teaching a verse in the Quran then this should be covered under "Wa Yuallimakum Al Kitab", i,e, "and teaches you the Book", so why you want to double it up under "He teaches you what you don't know"?
See why I said it does not add up
Salam
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Peace,
- O you who believe, if you borrow debt for a future period, then you shall record it. And let a scribe of justice record it for you; and let not the scribe refuse to record as God has taught him. Let him record and let the person who is borrowing dictate to him, and let him be aware of God, and let him not reduce from it anything. If the one who is borrowing is immature or weak or he cannot dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate with justice; and bring two witnesses from amongst your men; if they are not two men, then a man and two women from whom you will accept their testimony, so that if one of them becomes occupied, then the one can recall the other. And let the witnesses not refuse to come if they are called. And do not fail to record it no matter how small or large until its maturity. That is more just with God and better for the testimony, and better that you do not have doubts; except if it is a trade to be done on the spot between you, then there is no sin upon you if you do not record it. And have evidence if you trade. No scribe shall be harmed nor any witness; for if you do so then it is vileness on your part, and be aware of God and God teaches you and God is aware of all things.
What did God teach us here? Clearly what was explained in this verse about writing a debt.
- ?Our Lord, and send amongst them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the Scripture and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?
And as given before the wisdom is inside the Quran
"This is of what your Sustainer has revealed to you of ?Hikmah? (wisdom), and do not associate any other god with Allah lest you should be thrown into hell, blamed, cast away." (1739)
And what is the widom that was revealed in 1719? Let's take a look
- And do not come near the orphan?s money, except for that which is best, until he reaches maturity. And fulfill your oath, for the oath brings responsibility.
- And give full measure when you deal, and weigh with a balance that is straight. That is good and better in the end.
- And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
- And do not walk in the land arrogantly, for you will not penetrate the Earth, nor will you reach the mountains in height.
- All of this is bad, and disliked by your Lord.
And more
"There have already come to them Recitals wherein there is (enough) to check (them). Mature wisdom <Hikmat ul baaligha> but (the preaching of) Warners profits them not." (544-5)
"And bear in mind that which is recited in your houses of the revelations of Allah and wisdom. Lo! Allah is Subtile, Aware." (3334)
"Ya Seen. I swear by the Quran full of wisdom. Most surely you are one of the messengers." (361-3)
"Alif Lam Mim. These are verses of the Book of Wisdom. A guidance and a mercy for the doers of goodness," (311-3)
So this proofs God teaches us the Unseen and the Wisdom that are IN the Quran.
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Peace Brother Ahmed
Since the verse 1149 has the word wahi/inspire/revelation
will it not qualify for both teaching and reciting?Or are you of the view that prophet was inspired with
messages other than the Quraan.Peace bro
Actually the wahi in verse 1149 is only realting to the story mentioned just before it which is the story of Noah, the reason the wahi is specific to that is the word "Tilka" which is called in arabic grammar "Ism Ishara", sort of "a pointing noun" and it is pointing to the story of Noah, therefore in 1149 the wahi mentioned is regarding "Teaching the prophet Al kitab" which includes many stories of Al Ghayab like the story of Noah that was just mentioned, sure Mohammad elaborated on it in the Hadith with things that were not mentioned in the story, in fact the prophet elaborated a lot regarding all the other prophets with things that were never mentioned in the Quran, those things will be classified under what he didn't and we don't know and has nothing to do with the Book because it is not in the book from the first place, what Mohammad learnt that he didn't know nor the people knew can't be the stories of the Ghayb alone, rather many other things like Salat for example, I believe Allah delibertly left some issues for the prophet to explain to us after informing him with it to test us and see who is really following the last prophet, this is obvious after reading the many times Allah told us to obey Him and His messneger, 100% it is a test for all of us,
Yes I do believe 100% that Allah infomed the prophet with things that are not in the Quran, He clearly told us that in a very general statement that was not specific to the stories of the Ghaib
I guess a good example of those sort of things can be found in sura 66
Cheers
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Yes I do believe 100% that Allah infomed the prophet with things that are not in the Quran, He clearly told us that in a very general statement that was not specific to the stories of the Ghaib
that may be true, but those informations not in the Quran never got the protection of God, thus those informations are conjecturous, and we all know what God tells us about following conjecture.
peace, ex
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Peace Ahmed
Since the most common/important argument we have for the need of hadeeth is with regard to Quraan not being fully detailed about salat, can you kindly explain which hadeeth do we use to derive at 5 times Salat with 2,4,4,3,4 Rakahs and the 17 ( I am not certain whether this is more or less according to each persons belief) compulsory requirements , postures and recitals.
Also please be good enough to explain which hadeeth can we use to support any requirements not covered within compulsory acts in salat, but you may think important for salat to be accepted.