Blind Watch-Watchers or Atheist Goats
-
Salam noble,
I second your thought on how we should address the issue of evolution. As you noted that there is nothing in the Al Quran that advises humans not to investigate anything, on the contrary it encourages it. Q2920
Q2920
Say "Roam the Earth and observe how the creation was initiated....The theory of evolution fits in the context of the above ayats nicely. But the fundamental question of the existence of the Supreme Being may go beyond than this observation alone.
Even when refer to the Elementary particle (Fundamental Particle) in Creation as explained in Wiki-Particle physics, modern scientific knowledge attests the Idea of Creation in pair as found in Q5149.
Wiki-Creation and Wiki-Creation and annihilation operators
Creation- Natural sciencesIn particle physics, creation is the opposite of annihilation. It refers to the appearance of elementary particles, in physical processes such as pair production or abstractly as in a creation operator.
Creation and annihilation operators
In physics, an annihilation operator is an operator that lowers the number of particles in a given state by one. A creation operator is an operator that increases the number of particles in a given state by one, and it is the adjoint of the annihilation operator.
Q5149
And from everything We created a pair, perhaps you may remember.Peace.
p/s Sorry for many refs qouted from Wiki
-
I appreciate Shaad's well articulated feedback and I respect his concern. I agree with him that we may never be able to comprehend the whole story of creation via scientific inquiry that has many limitations, including time and space. However, the impossibility of reaching to a complete and perfect understanding should not be considered an obstacle for us for trying to learn at least a part of the story.
Thus, I was going to remind you 2920, but I noticed that brother Phil had already done that.
Peace,
Edip -
Peace noble
No, never stop searching for your spiritual origin, for that is also your final destination too. But why do you want a ?knowable material origin? too? What else can this serve except your ego? The material existence around us is nothing but a place where are signs that direct us back to our eternal abode. Do you want to know the origin of a signboard? This will only direct you to wood, ink and stone ? to materialism.
Regards material origin, you have the report in front of you ? and the finding conclusion has one word ?Nothing.? Let alone life, the search for dead matter has wound up with ?nothing?. Lots of words have been thrown up ? atom, molecule, electron, proton, neutron, muon, positron, neutrino, quark, anti-quark, and so on and so forth. Has anyone ever seen these things? On the contrary, whenever anyone tries to examine these things he comes across empty space, and only certain behaviours of his appatarus. To explain these behaviours he imagines other, even tinier particles, and these in turn, when investigated closely, are found to be empty space. And so the imagination brews up more terms, and the epic of pontification just carries on and on. The apparatus even talks to the investigator straightforwardly and it tells him, ?You are only imagining things.? Because quantum mechanics tells us that the particle is there only when we observe it, but doesn?t even exist when we look away. And this is the outcome of trying to find out the origin of a dead piece of matter. Nothing, and wasteland of arid imagination. But just look at the ego, flying high on the fuel of nothingness. It has become a giant in the kingdom of the sky, and with its fairytale of conjectures it now wants to tackle the origin of life (chromosome, DNA, and so on). And it will not stop there either, but then wants to describe the mind (nerve cell, cerebellum, and so on), and then soars again and puts the spirit of man into concrete physical terms (archetype, transcendental personality, and so on). And you call this gargantuan feeding of the ego ?search for truth????
The biggest tragedy to me seems to be that the highest truth of all, the Quran, is attracting the dimmest of wits. Materialism ran its course and left the Western world groaning in nihilist despair. But it seems that there be wits in this world that notice not a thing, who consider printed money to be the blood of life, greed to be a modern form of morality, technological manipulation to be ?good works?, and comfort to be heaven. Such-like see the Quran as justicfication for a fresh bout of materialism, starting from the very beginning, evolution, human rights, freedom of enquiry, and so on. The same sort of behaviour I see among the orthodox Moslems, those who follow the Hadith and have not yet discovered the Quran. When knowledge was not yet in the books, but needed life-threatening expeditions of discovery, life-long enquiry and dedication, demonstration of the highest courage and the greatest morals, then the orthodox Moslems shunned knowledge as Kufr. But when the knowledge were collated in books, and needed only mindless rote for a few years towards university degrees and middle class respectability, then they suddenly changed tack and started to quote endlessly how the Quran promoted enquiry, and that it knew about science way before the Westeners did. The difference between the orthodox Moslem and the new Quranist is only in level of sophistication. One is crassly chasing material wealth, while the other is subtle in its ego-satisfying quest for knowledge. Where is the room for spiritual advancement here?
Shaad
http//www.nazrulreader.com -
Peace Shaad,
The difference between the orthodox Moslem and the new Quranist is only in level of sophistication. One is crassly chasing material wealth, while the other is subtle in its ego-satisfying quest for knowledge. Where is the room for spiritual advancement here?
The way I see, your generalization of Orthodox Moslem and new Quranist is a bit hasty. Knowledge leads you to the truth. But the ultimate truth, which for me in the context of proof of the existence of God will never be able to reach our mind, until the day we are gathered in the Hereafter.
Similiarly, the history written in Qur'an tells us on how the Jews even asked the Prophet Moses to show them the ultimate proof.
255
And you said "O Moses, we will not believe you until we see God openly!" So the lightning bolt took you while you were still staring.And even Moses asked the same question. Q7173
We are here in this material world simpy to redeem ourselves from the mistake that we have done earlier in previous life (world). In other word, this is our second chance given by our Creator.
But the ultimate truth (in the context of God existence) has been witnessed by humankind.
Q3660
Did I not covenant with you, O Children of Adam, that you shall not worship the devil? That he is your most ardent enemy?Q7172
Recall that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam, and had them bear witness for themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They all said, "Yes. We bear witness." Thus, you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, "We were not aware of this."We bore witness, but we falled into Syaitan trap, so here we are in this world to get our second chance before the hereafter.
In this temporal world, I think no one will be able to see the ultimate truth. No matter how hard you try. We have been given this opportunity earlier. In this world, the concept of the God has been hardwired in our brain. Now what left to us is to follow the guideline prescribed by God on how we can lead an orderly life in this world.
And this has nothing to do with spiritual journey as you mentioned in your last sentence of your post. The quest for spiritual journey as history can prove will always lead mankind to establish religions. Whether this is ordained by our Creator or not can be seen by looking back at the messages sent down to us through numerous messengers.
Peace.
-
Peace Bro Shaad
For lack of a better expression, spiritualism versus materialism, you are very articulate (and poetical) in advocating the former at the expense of the latter. I am very impressed by your statements.
Now, no one said that say quantum mechanics was the answer, it is after all a mathematical model, nothing more.
However, if it were not for the research and discoveries, and spirit of enquiry, we will be still living in caves.
I think what is missing is that spiritual advancement is lagging behind material one.
Really as a beneficiary say of medical treatment that target certain ailments fo which I suffer, if there were no sophisticated scientific instrumentations and discoveries, I will be in great pain, or dead right now.
So please let us be practical. We live in this world and part of our duty is to alleviate suffering, some of our rewards right now are coming from the comfort we derive from many technologies that would not have seen the light of day without scientific research and advances. This includes the computer I am using right now, and my ability to connect with family members despite a huge distance and show my naughty face to them using a web cam.
Your concerns are reasonable, but in my opinion there has to be a balance between spirituality and materialism.
I am sorry but you are out of track.
Nice poetry though
Kind salams
Noble -
Peace all, (my last post before I leave for ?vacation?)
Intelligent design has always been an inspiration to man?s curiosity ever since man habited and populated earth dictated by our very own nature and reality in which we live in. Progress has been steady as well as accelerated at various stages of time; science dominating materialism while religion spiritualism. I personally define science as pragmatic and physically environmental, and religion as idealistic and imaginarily environmental, though both have some commonality, religion is suppressed and a delusional case. Perhaps it would be better, to study and understand the historicity of how Islam emerged and what Quran is all about. Quran, on its own, can never be understood, as we?ve been witnessing through centuries. This book, with all due respect, has created more interpretations, translations, divisions, hatred, disharmony and unnecessary chaos and bigotry than any other book on earth, not only within the Muslims themselves but towards other human race. I ask you with all sincerity, where is this book leading humanity towards, Hell or Heaven on earth?
Muslims have been thirst-quenching and painstakingly trying to prove an alleged ?divine book? by thrusting scientific findings upon it, such as embryology, splitting of moon, mummification, numerology, diet and nutrition, evolution vs creationism, menstrual cycle, periodic table, etc. to name a few, along with several historical unprecedented laws (such as unethical, barbaric and inconsistent punishments and condemnations, waiting periods for divorced women, inheritance, marriage, dress code, etc.) and other ?miraculous? notions (such as Allah?s attributes, His physicality, limitations, sons and daughters of Allah, sticks becoming snakes, sea spitting in half, humans transforming into pigs and monkeys, virgin birth, humans controlling winds and seas, fish swallowing a prophet of God, Moses and Muhammad secretly meeting the Unseen and Unknown, etc., etc.); only to find each claim being distorted and debunked. Shame on people who do not think, given the mind, eyes and ears and woe to those who are nothing more than emotional and excited about something they have no idea about, moaning, mumbling and masquerading their lives about, for nothing.
As an example, let us take the case of Periodic Table which has been discussed with such fascination to correlate the 114 chapters of Quran. Gold, silver and copper has been long known in antiquity and the mixture of earth, air, water and fire are what brings us to all elements found insofar in its solid, liquid and gaseous states. Over time, classification of these elements started with scientific experiments (not by Muslims, mind you), hence forming a standard periodic table, starting from one element onwards. Today, we have not 114 but 116 confirmed elements with two additional ones being sorted out and are being classified and structured to compose and expand the current Period Table in order while still more elements to be discovered. Ninety-two of these elements occur naturally while others have been synthesized. So where does this silly quranic chaptering and numbering fit in? It seems that the more the scientific developments are being known, the more the Muslims become merrier, all in vain.
The ?intelligent design? is perceived through our naked eye and mental comprehension and experimented upon. It is nothing more than our nature/reality in which we are confined. Man must begin and end his/her journey in REALITY of TODAY not in the FANTASY of YESTERDAY. Our eyes are placed in front because it is more important to look ahead than to look back. Past is a reflection of our bygone days and must be understood and exercised with caution and reason, so fear not for the future and weep not for the past. The worst thing about history is that every time it repeats itself, the price goes up. The more sand has escaped from the hourglass of our life, the clearer we should see through it. A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. And finally, I keep six honest men that teaches me all I know; their names are What, Where, When, How, Why and Who.
Learn to cherish your lives by smelling the real colorful roses of Today, not the fake paper ones of Yesterday. Talk and discuss about situations, events and personal life stories of our current advanced systems of Today and how we can help, advice and solve them, as per our current ways of lives. There is plenty to talk about, if only religionists can come to the understanding of humanism, in order to treat them as such, as dictated by Reality/Nature in which all humans and other creatures live together. Last but not the least, please do study and ponder upon the sections of "Nature of God" and "Quranic Divinity", along with other scattered subjects of relevancy and criticisms bought about on this forum. http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6649.0. Chow and toodle-do. ) sun
-
As an example, let us take the case of Periodic Table which has been discussed with such fascination to correlate the 114 chapters of Quran. Gold, silver and copper has been long known in antiquity and the mixture of earth, air, water and fire are what brings us to all elements found insofar in its solid, liquid and gaseous states. Over time, classification of these elements started with scientific experiments (not by Muslims, mind you), hence forming a standard periodic table, starting from one element onwards. Today, we have not 114 but 116 confirmed elements with two additional ones being sorted out and are being classified and structured to compose and expand the current Period Table in order while still more elements to be discovered. Ninety-two of these elements occur naturally while others have been synthesized. So where does this silly quranic chaptering and numbering fit in? It seems that the more the scientific developments are being known, the more the Muslims become merrier, all in vain.
Dear Danish
The force in your writing gives the impression of knowledge, however your assertions are out of ignorance. Please go study a bit about the subject matter before you indulge in refuting it, and then come here and talk about the phantasmagorical element 115 and 116. For starter, google "element 115" (in quotation).
It its theoretically demonstrated, for twenty plus years, that the number of stable elements cannot exceed 114. Since then, the theory has been proven correct. The last stable heaviest element is 114.
Peace,
Edip -
Peace noble
Nobody is saying ?don?t ask? or ?don?t investigate?. All I am saying is that you will not get far in your investigations if you fantasize about a material universe where God has no place. Material evolution is a theory that says that physical law is the agent of Creation, and physical law is inviolable and not even God can change it. Those who say ?creative evolution? don?t know what they are talking about. On the one hand they insist on physical law, and then they are saying that God violates physical law all the time when he is at the task of creating man through DNA manipulation, and this is plain nonsense. What purpose does this God-less fantasy serve? None at all, except to pander to the ego, and thus to leave the door wide open to all the vices.
If you believe you have medical miracles due to this kind of thinking you are wrong. This is just a story put out by those who bask in the advantages of technology and then begin to fantasize that it was all due to plain logic and manipulation. And they extrapolate backwards thinking that the logic must have started somewhere, and they begin to imagine an animal-like state of man who has nothing, no language, no morality, no culture, no religion, only a busy, logical brain, and one by one he works things out. And then they extrapolate even further back, thinking that that the crude caveman must have started from somewhere, and they hit on the idea of physical evolution, a logical-mechanical process whereby cruder forms of life develop into more advanced ones. So the logical conundrum began in a soup of amino acids, is now at the stage where we are dabbling in microsurgery and so on, and in the future will have us as immortal hedonists trying hard to figure out novel ways to enjoy our 25,317th year, and this conundrum has apparently no final solution What a preposterous fantasy! These are the fantasists that put out the idea of ?progress? and make you believe that their way is the way of knowledge.
The next time you receive modern medical aid just think of yourself as lucky, that?s all. But the machinery that brought you that service is a monster. Those families that work their socks off to put their son through medical school do it for family pride, that?s all. Those medical-researchers who work day and night to invent cures do it for the sake of the profit-lines of the medical industry, nothing else. They profess to eradicate disease, but don?t believe in their Hypocritical oaths, because they are just that, hypocrisy. If diseases were eradicated tomorrow than not a single doctor or researcher would take to the monastery and thank the Almighty for this blessing. No, the industry will then re-employ its mighty manipulative powers towards disease creation. This is because pride, respectability and perks come before everything else, and the Oath of Hippocrates is just a means for them. All these self-serving individualists make up a monster. They will tell you that they are serving you, and that they are inventing all these things for your benefit, but don?t believe them. How that medical aid came to your benefit is a mystery. I can tell you this, that in the final analysis it came from light of the Quran, that which appeared among us 1400 years ago. But do you know how? Through atheists and denouncers of the Quran? We can never figure this out. But this we know for sure, that inspiration never comes to the head of a materialist. Why should it, when he doesn?t even believe in inspiration?
I will tell you what they would do if they were honest about material knowledge. They would first try to find a vaccination that fixes the evil-tendency of man, and once every single person on earth has been thus vaccinated they would then begin the task of compiling empirical knowledge, secure in their selves that things will progress and not regress. But they don?t do that. They shout ?progress via pandering to the ego?. And we believe it because it appeals to our worse nature.
Shaad
http//www.nazrulreader.comPS. Thanks, noble, for the compliment. But I only want to get a point across and I am not aware of poetry.
-
FABULOUS post danish.......... bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo yay yay yay yay elektro elektro elektro elektro group group group group group group sun sun sun sun sun muscle muscle muscle muscle muscle O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 handshake
-
Enquirer, Danish does not need you to cheerlead his moronic philosophical tirades.
Peace Bro Shaad
Very provocative what you wrote there.
It is very logical to assume that career advancement of professionals is motivated by pride.
That being said ruling out completely what they are doing and their aspirations is a bit too much.
After all if they were to become muslims Allah will turn their evil deeds into good deeds.
Do not forget the example of Joseph in the Al Quran, where as a Prophet of Allah, he worked within a secular system and benefitted it immensely, while deriving benefits for himself and his family from it.
Regarding Alla's inspirations, I am glad you are mentioning this, because I have started looking into the purpose of sleep and dreams, and thanks to some research it is being found out that these were used by some unknown process to program the mind to solve problems, and who do you think is doing the programming? Allah of course...
Salam
Noble -
My noble noble...Maybe he doesnt need me to praise him,as he has done a good enough job of totally refuting the concept of god as advocated by the majority,and the fallacy of quranic 'science'....
And what are the majority of 'alternative'posts,if not 'philosophical and fallacious'? muscle muscle muscle handshake 'First truth is ridiculed and mocked,then it is accepted'...... -
Maybe he doesnt need me to praise him,as he has done a good enough job of totally refuting the concept of god as advocated by the majority,and the fallacy of quranic 'science'....
The Quran contains MANY examples of scientific facts that were not commonly known during its revelation. Can you please tell us ONLY ONE example of his refutation. I only found a list of examples ending up with a personal declaration of something like "I refute and reject"
Yes, "I refute" is a refutation, but is this a scientific way of refuting any assertion?
Since you like cheers, I will cheer you in advance
welcome
Peace,
Edip -
Peace noble
Quote
After all if they were to become muslims Allah will turn their evil deeds into good deeds.A very good argument, but the easiest in the world to abuse. The prophet Joseph set an example, but the rest of us settle for hypocrisy. After all it?s not like walking into fire, it?s more like falling into a bed of roses. It is the same argument put forward by every single religionist from middle class of upper class stock, and not only among Moslems. The argument you put forward is exactly the same one on which stands the modern Babylon of hypocrisy. It?s a bit irresponsible to put it forward, don?t to think, with all these impressionable eyes peering over us?
How do you think capitalism sprang up from the heart of Christianity. It is due to that diabolical notion that occupies the center, that which says the Jesus Christ has washed away the sins of the believer. This is what made them justify greed, gluttony and envy (free market economy), pride (material evolution and progress), lying and stealing (law by precedence) and lechery (fine art). The Moslems are entering this game very late, but they are excelling the Christians and Jews at it. They are saying, take everything of the West except drinking and flagrant nudity, observe Namaj, Roza and Hajj, and everything is made right. The Christian and the Jew has to work for their material heaven, but the Moslem only wants to step into someone else?s nest, and this multiplies the hypocrisy manifold. The Moslem way washes sins so thoroughly, it seems, that there is not even shame left.
Yes, we are not that kind of Moslem. But let?s please try not to sound like them.
Shaad
http//www.nazrulreader.com -
Peace Bro Shaad
Yes indeed, we as an Ummah are in deep trouble...
Personally I am just starting to try and make sense of how many filters are shading the light of the Al Quran, and the least I have to say is that I keep on being shocked by how much damage has been done to myself and to the whole...
May Allah open our eyes and lead us to a better way than the ones followed thus far, and may we gather the strength to practice the guidance as Allah wishes us to practice it...
Salam
Noble