Arab messengers
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Peace
No my memory served me
2846 And nor were you on the side of the mount when We called. But it is a mercy from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed.
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What are you going on about and what does that have to do with this? What is an Islamic name? And how many Muslims actually advocate such a belief?
There a lot of people here who are full of prejudices and have a lot of predermined views about others.
Peace Al-Quraishi,
When a chinese guy says to you that his name is Abdullah or Hasan, its clear that someone told him that he must change his name into Islamic one. These are not Islamic names, they are Arabic names. And this is what I am talking about.
If Arabic would be the unifying Islamic language, we wouldn't have more than 70 different sects in Islam. -
Peace
No matter... I prefer, and enjoy reading the Al Quran in the original... Reading it in english or french pales in comparison... ;DIndeed Akhi, it looks as though I'm going to have to use brother Ahmed's way of quoting and replying as there simply is no other way to answer such a barrage of diverging posts many with further accusations pertaining to the beliefs of myself.
So let's start shall we?
Yes, that is what many arabs want it to be. Guess it's kind of a new chosen people syndrom.
Elke Did you not read my previous post? Because I will no longer dignify such comments with further replies.
That is why they invented things like ISLAMIC NAMES for your babies which in fact are Arabic but so many bite into that.
Well Dion, just so you know, personally, I do not 'bite into that'
I seems to remember that the Quran states that Mohammad was sent to a people who never had any messengers before. are my memory playing tricks on me?
No Magi your memory is not playing tricks on you, can't two separate communities not speak the same language?
I mean come on, the people here are all up for taking true historical evidence above hadith, then if you bothered to actually look through things, you would find that the peoples who lived in these cities of rock described in the Qur'an from Saudi Arabia to Jordan were all Arabs i.e. they Spoke Arabic, they used various scripts, but tey spoke Arabic.
Hence, the answer to the original question posted on this thread was answered correctly by myself, however Idolfree must have obviously decided that the Thamud were also a big metaphor alongside their prophet and were clearly non-Arabic so therefore must never existed.
The Thamud (Arabic د were an early Arabian people. Their name is mentioned in Assyrian annals (Tamudi), in a Greek temple inscription from the northwest Hijaz of 169 AD, in a 5th-century Byzantine source, and in early graffiti around Tayma, as well as (arguably) an Eblaite tablet; from these sources, it seems that the Thamud were a tribe living somewhere between Mecca and Tayma. They are mentioned in the Qur'an as rejecting their Prophet Saleh and being destroyed by God as a result. (wiki)
C'mon man really... arabic is no better than any other language, they're all just symbols that attempt to convey thoughts. One symbol cannot be better than another, and simply because the Quran is in arabic should not limit Islam to being an arab religion.
Did I say anything close to that? No, the disease that is so badly rampant in Closed, er, I mean Free Minds has struck again, jumping to conclusions, putting words into people's mouths and judging people (Peace I am not necessarily stating that these all apply to you, however they most definitely apply to alot of posts in this thread).
Seriously, I have had the same arguements with people who spout all this 'Arabic can be used to express all langauges' stuff, and if they knew the first thing about linguistics and scripts, they would know that is certainly not true.
I don't know if this is what you meant.
Well it wasn't and you should have known that by the fact that I did not utter anything to imply the sort, all I merely said was that it was the logical unifying language - but hey, every metaphoralist just dump me in Sunni Mullah Looney bin because I said something that was even slightly pro-Arabic.
As to your comments towards Idolfree1, I don't know why you pretend to know what happens if you take the Quran metaphorically. You and I both know that you have no idea. It's cool, I can tell you're going to act all serious towards these comments, just remember you're playing a role and so am I, but we're the same in the end; and if anything take what I say lightly, like Idolfree1 did towards your comments.
These comments are most certainly not being taken lightly by anyone in this conversation so pleace don't pin everything on me, I'm having opinions forced into my mouth, I'm having people commenting on things I didn't imply let alone say.
You are again wasting your time debating with dudes who have already their mind made up about what they believe.
Salam Brother Noble, it seems you're very right, the scary thing is, these people seem to be dictating to me all the things that I believe in! It all wreaks of people jumping to rediculous conclusions and judging people on the spot.
Chosen People Syndrome? Ha ha ha that is so true. By the way what is so unifying about Arabic? Most of people who claim to bear the label 'Muslim' in this world do not understand much what they read in Arabic Al Quran.
Yeah, and do you know what? Not understanding Arabic correctly is the greatest thing that makes people around here mislead both others and themselves.
I'll put it this way for ya; for a very long time, Christian Pastors and Theologians have been debating and arguing over the truth of something that has either been badly translated, purposefully mistranslated or translated nevertheless. You know where it got them? The Trinity.
Now however much certain people around here claim certain swathes of Islam are openly committing shirk, I think we can safely say that 1400 years after the revelation things have never got as bad as they have in Christianity, why is that I wonder? Well maybe it has something to do with the proportions of Christians who understand Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek for that matter, compared to the number of Muslims who have strived through history to understand the language of the Qur'an. Maybe it also has something to do with the fact that our secondary source of religious information is far more accurate than the testaments recorded as being those of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Can we say the same thing about Judaism? Am I a Hebrew-Zionist nutjob for saying that logically Hebrew is the unifying language of that particular religion? Of course not, it's common sense, and we say that they too just like Muslims, majoritively have not come to worship and adopt open Trinities or polytheism.
That is too bad (the inability to read/understand arabic), you are missing much of the beauty of The Message.
I believe that whoever is serious about Al Quran should learn to read and speak Quranic Arabic, then you will get information first hand instead of relying on others, Arabs or otherwise...Well said Akhi, (oh and for any of you who don't know what that means, it's 'brother' in Arabic). Read what he said, please people read it - then you will get information first hand instead of relying on others, Arabs or otherwise This is the single most monumentous problem here at Free Minds and other such 'Muslim Reformist' arenas, this is what gets a lot of people to accept some of the stupid, rediculous and blatant (and please pardon my Arabic ) Bullsh*t that goes around here. And I betcha Brothers Ahmed and Noble will agree with me on that.
that's what i thought some time ago as well. But not anymore. On many crucial points even the arab speakers - learned or "original" - are not able to get to an even understanding.
Oh well, then we're all doomed aren't we? You'll find that is God and God alone who can help us in these matters, nothing else, God makes the Qur'an easy to learn for the believers.
These are metaphorical stories. Dont worry about believing in people you can never verify, just like Santa Claus and Big Foot. Messengers and Prophets are the potential for ALL human beings, thats what is being said to you if you can get beyond the trick of "chosen people" syndrome.
Idolfree what are you going on about? Of course, the Prophets Ibrahim, Musa and Muhammad peace be upon them all, have equal status in reality to that of Santa Claus and Bigfoot . And please, enough of this 'chosen people' stuff, you're openly trying to imply I advocate this and it's being read by everyone else who reads this conversation.
No my memory served me
2846 And nor were you on the side of the mount when We called. But it is a mercy from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed.
Just like I said earlier on in this post, please read it, please read some history books on historical communities living in the middle east and please accept the fact that two different communities can be speaking the same language.
When a chinese guy says to you that his name is Abdullah or Hasan, its clear that someone told him that he must change his name into Islamic one. These are not Islamic names, they are Arabic names. And this is what I am talking about.
Yeah, well it's not what I'm talking about and it's certainly not what I'm implying.
If Arabic would be the unifying Islamic language, we wouldn't have more than 70 different sects in Islam.
That's not true, if you know anything about the most major schism in Islam then you would know that it had political origins and not religious ones.
It seems certain people here have viewed me as an 'easy target' and also as the subject of judgement simply because I quite correctly replied to the original question to this post - and Idolfree I have even more Historical FACTUAL proof for you if you're gonna continually spout that these prophets weren't Arabic.
And I will say it one more time
Arabic is the natural unifying language of Islam, it's the logical choice, do I really need to give explanations?
I seek refuge in Allah from all of you have put words in my mouth, jumped to conclusions about me and my beliefs and have had a go at me simply for helping another Muslim out by answering their original query.
Regards,
Al-Qurashi
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Peace Al _ Quraishi,
Don't take it so personally.
This isn't about you. I can give you number of websites in albanian or bosnian, where all the members have changed their name into Abdul Malik, Abudurrahman etc. They have a link with Islamic names (all of them Arab names).
This is one part of Arabisation that is going on through sunni teachings.As for the language, its a free choice I guess. Whatever makes you feel better.
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Salam Dion,
That does not mean that from a post where a query regarding Arabic messengers was simply asked all this stuff has to be spewed out.
Alot of these replies mention me by name and are attaching all sorts of cracy conclusions and judgements upon me so I think it was quite necessary to reply to the whole issue of Arabization and this nonesense regarding certain people's views on Arab prophets.
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Peace quraishi
Quote
that's what i thought some time ago as well. But not anymore. On many crucial points even the arab speakers - learned or "original" - are not able to get to an even understanding.Oh well, then we're all doomed aren't we? You'll find that is God and God alone who can help us in these matters, nothing else, God makes the Qur'an easy to learn for the believers.
This time you are jumping to conclusions on what i meant, at least in your first phrase. Although i share your view on the second one.
lk
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Salam Elke,
Fair enough
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Salam and JazakaAllah Bro Al Qureishi,
I think the issue here is an arrogance, and maybe racist. Some people do not like to be associated with Arabs, maybe because they look down on them. Unfortunately, it is true, we Arabs are not doing so well on many fronts.
In any event, different races and languages are Signs from Allah, and people have the right, and even maybe the obligation to preserve their cultural heritage (at the very least the good parts of it), as it is their identity.
Clearly you have been foul mouthed by prejudice, because this is what they expect to hear from Arabs/Sunnis...
On the subject of metaphors, I can give them this Language is a metaphor driven vehicle to describe the world. There are some stories in the Quran that use more complex metaphorical representations, this is where they like to argue (the mutashabihats)... The problem, in so doing you are not following Allah's advice, Who asks you not to, as their knowlege is only with Him (which means they refer to something real, but language is not enough to describe them). So in fact your arguing and bickering about them is a sin.
As for clear cut explanations, in plain language, you will be foolish to dismiss them as unreal...
Peace
Noble -
Peace Nobel,
This has nothing to do with racism. Arab culture is unique and it should remain so. Personally I love it.
When rap music emerged from the streets of US, that was something original. Now you have Japanese, and Swedish and Albanians singing rap music and I find that disgusting, just as I find disgusting Germans and Norvegians named Hasan adressed up like desert people living in Berlin. And just as much as I would find disgusting if I would see Arabs dressed llike Cowboys in the US.
Americanism of the world will eventually fail, so I don't see any reason why Arabisation is going to prevail. -
Peace Dion,
Why such strong words like disgusting? Allah gave us the freedom of choice, and so far as we are within reasonable boundaries of decency (and there is an amazing lot we are free to do, really), then there should be no problem, inclusive of someone choosing an arabic name or wearing a long robe, insofar that they do not consider it a religious obligation and attempt to impose it on others...
My motto, whatever makes you feel comfortable do...
So please do not go the other extreme... -
Salam and JazakaAllah Bro Al Qureishi,
I think the issue here is an arrogance, and maybe racist. Some people do not like to be associated with Arabs, maybe because they look down on them. Unfortunately, it is true, we Arabs are not doing so well on many fronts.
In any event, different races and languages are Signs from Allah, and people have the right, and even maybe the obligation to preserve their cultural heritage (at the very least the good parts of it), as it is their identity.
Clearly you have been foul mouthed by prejudice, because this is what they expect to hear from Arabs/Sunnis...
On the subject of metaphors, I can give them this Language is a metaphor driven vehicle to describe the world. There are some stories in the Quran that use more complex metaphorical representations, this is where they like to argue (the mutashabihats)... The problem, in so doing you are not following Allah's advice, Who asks you not to, as their knowlege is only with Him (which means they refer to something real, but language is not enough to describe them). So in fact your arguing and bickering about them is a sin.
As for clear cut explanations, in plain language, you will be foolish to dismiss them as unreal...
Peace
NobleSalam,
Perhaps you are correct brother, I did not think about that, it may explain the larger attitude prevalent among a certain setion of the users of this forum, but I seriously hope you are wrong because its incredibly scary if that is the case!
In terms of the mutashabihats you're right, alot of the stuff that is debated here is exactly that however my arguing with them is one of simple fact, logic and rationality, something that is arrogantly paraded and self-styled by many here as they say it is this that got them to Qur'an Alone.
The other night I was composing a very long post in the Jonah and the Whale argument thread, I included Hebrew sources, other similar cases to what was brought up and all sorts, I then realised that what I was infact doing was providing further sources, facts and general ammunition for both 'sides' of the argument when the fundamental message I was trying to convey was something along the lines of 'It was a large sea creature nevertheless and in the light of this does it matter?' so I simply gave up and did not post at all.
The people who have said the most rediculous things in this thread have been silenced and their ignorance has been exposed in the wake of their arrogance. I hope it has served to improve people's attitude around here and also their conduct towards others on the forum.
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Salam Bro Al Quraishi,
There is tolerance and there is foolishness. If one is a believer, he/she will not feel comfortable doing abominations. But everybody has the freedom of choice still...
I do not accept it is scary, in fact it is what Allah wants us to be, proud and honorable people.
There is no sin in enjoying oneself, smiling, admiring Allah's creation, laughing, walking by a lake, enjoying nature, reading, eating a good meal, and many other pursuits... It is even better while and/or after enjoying what Allah provided to be grateful to what He gave us...
I think the tragedy, especially among the so-called jihadists are that they love to die for whatever they think is right, but they forget to live for the faith...
In any event, so far as the foundation is still missing, it is all in vain... A real and somber tragedy, leading straight to Hell...
Peace -
Well said brother, well said...
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Peace Bro Al-Quraishi
Unfortunately, brother, you said the magic word ARAB. I've noticed time and time again in numerous threads that the attitudes of some users of this forum towards Arabs and Middle Eastern culture/countries in general is less than desirable. They talk down as if somehow Arabs are subhuman who have not evolved as much as other third world countries that are probably in the same if not worse state. I've even seen someone post a remark that we should just nuke the entire Middle East and start over. That's how much their envy/hatred has gotten. They've stooped so low as to intend the diabolical murder of a billion souls simply because they are Arab.
Just look at the flow of this thread. You asked a very legitimate question of how many arabs we know of that were of Arab decent. Had you asked if there were any messengers that we know of that were of AFRICAN decent ( there is such a thread ) you would have seen a totally different response.
It all boils down to racism in the end. I for one will not tolerate it. If that person who so easily joked about nuking a whole region of the world knew 1% about Arab culture/history/literature/ ANYTHING he wouldn't be so ignorant as to say such an offensive comment.
As for the second issue that miraculously popped up out of nowhere that Arabic somehow is not a language that needs to be learned because it means nothing to Islam.... I'd love to know how you fully appreciate Shakespeare if you don't want to know English. how do you fully appreciate "The Art of War" if you despise Mandarin. Get real. The quran is written in Classical Arabic. If you want to be intelligent enough to actually understand a verse, don't log onto some website and read random people's "opinions". Grow some b***s and make your own opinion. But you can't do that if you don't know the language of a book you're trying to read this is just basic I mean seriously basic common knowledge.
OH and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with Arabic names you talk as if Abdullah isn't a nice name. It's a beautiful name and has an even more beautiful meaning. I'm of Egyptian decent and my name is originally a Hebrew name from the bible. It has an interesting story behind it. And no there is nothing disgusting about it. it's a beautiful thing to borrow from other cultures, like it or not, that includes Arab culture. If someone in Berlin believes Abdullah is a beautiful, Islamic message that he would like to give it to his child, who in God's name are you to tell him he's "disgusting"? Or perhaps because its Arabic that all of a sudden it's offensive to your ears.
To all who have anger in their hearts towards Arabs my advice to you is to get rid of it because you only hurt yourselves when you don't follow the peaceful co-existence dictated to us by The God. You may not know you have this hatred towards Arabs, but it's obvious many of you do...
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Indeed Akhi, if this forum is filled with such people, then Free Minds is indeed Closed Minds and no more than a bastion for the West's intent to transform Islam to fit itself rather than a real attempt at finding the truth.
A'uthu billahi min ash-shaytan ir-rajeem
Let us then, concentrate our efforts in rooting out all the lies, inaccuracies, hatred and blatant stupidity posted here (for there is much) that this place may not remain an outpost for such people who wish to transform the practise of Islam (or lack of practise thereof) into something utterly despicable and unGodly.
Insha Allah, let us not grant them such a refuge and let us seek refuge from the ultimate of protectors from their influences.
Alhamdu lillahi rab il-a'limeen
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Peace Dear Brothers in Faith
It is important, if one is seeking the truth not to be emotional...
The vision of this forum is meant for those seeking the truth...
However there are rules of civility that we must comply with, especially if one is to make a positive and useful contribution, and maybe perchance please Allah in the process.
No one can without a shadow of doubt say that they understand eveything, or that what they profess is fully acceptable...
Faith is by degrees.
Some people complain for instance about Allah why does He allow suffering on the planet if he were a compassionate God.
We do not answer to such statements that whosoever says them is an ungratful kafir. As soon as we do that we have lost them, and will probably be answerable for their loss.
A better answer is that Allah perfected this universe, and what is looked as suffering is to test the ones who suffer, and those who witness their suffering. Those who witness their suffering can therefore do something about it, and help...
So the perfection is what happens and the willingness to do something about it.
The sufferer is tested for patience. The one who does something about it is tested for generosity and service.
So please brothers, patience is a beautiful shield...
Salam WR WB -
Beautiful message dear Noble
Peace