a challenge to quran aloners!!!
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Salam phoenix, all. ;D
two assumptions are made here..
firstly
• Their stay on Earth is a punishment
second,
• if God really had forgiven Adam, he would've given back Adam a place in paradise
These two are assumptions, not facts, since no (quranic) prove are given..
Also, check out 237 -- God forgave Adam.
peace. )
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Peace "phoneix"
peace Aimi
how is that an assumption?
It is a fact that God didn't put Adam back in paradise (according to the traditional understanding at least). That's why we are here on earth.
And if God really had forgiven Adam, he would've given back Adam a place in paradise. If you punish a student by sending them out of class, when you forgive them, you usually bring them back in. Not leave them out.JK- Definition, definition, definition! again i must point out "life aint black and white" like the christians wld have it and thts the basic prob with most folks. neither is the meaning associated with words. thters always a certain amount of ambiguity and in this case "forgiven" can mean partial forgiveness meaning tht they were lucky they wernt thrown into hell straight away or atomized n scattered across the entire cosmos. GOD Bless!
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Peace "phoenix",
peace JK, what are those problems? Arnold Yasin wrote an article about janna and jahannam which you should read and see if it solves the problems. If it doesn't. We should discuss them to get rid of the doubts!
JK- One prob which bothers me is that regarding the whole adam satan ibless conversation. it sounds like a direct conversation with adam. next is why are we on earth? i always saw this as a punishment of our original sin as i believed we all sinned WITHIN adam since we were all part of him. I believe if we were all balmeless at birth then why not stay in heaven and come here. GOD Bless!
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peace JK
So what if it's a direct conversation? Don't your thoughts talk to you? don't your emotions persuade you to do something wrong?
I don't know why we are on earth. But the reason we are not in "heaven" is that heaven is experienced right here on earth. It is a mental state. That is the answer to your problem.
There is no original sin. We can all be in heaven just like Adam if we make the right choices. But if we let our desires control us, we will be in hell.
We are all blameless at birth, and so was Adam.I think the problems you have are not against the idea of janna here on earth, but janna as a physical place somewhere else. Right?
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peace JK,
how do you know that?God is merciful, right? how is he merciful if we will be put into hell for eternity?
Look at what satan tempts Adam with. They are all worldly things. Things we all want here on earht in this life. A person spending eternity in heaven will not be tempted by riches and imortality. That conversation is proof enough, I believe.
The quran also says that people can rise up from hell and go toward heaven.
And then there are the problems you mentioned, and the problems I mentioned earlier in the thread.
So there's considerable proof that jenna and jehannam are states of mind experienced right here on earth.
I will give you a link to Arnold's article about this. You should read it.
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Peace "phoenix",
peace JK,
how do you know that?God is merciful, right? how is he merciful if we will be put into hell for eternity?
JK- I didnt say tht i believed hell is eternal, did i? Infact bro Edip has written a good article abt tht.
Look at what satan tempts Adam with. They are all worldly things. Things we all want here on earht in this life. A person spending eternity in heaven will not be tempted by riches and imortality. That conversation is proof enough, I believe.
JK- Hmmmm...ok meaning janna back then was a place on earth..ok.. tht can be accepted but not tht there wont be any new heaven/paradise after the day of judgement.
The quran also says that people can rise up from hell and go toward heaven.
JK- I didnt come across a direct verse mentioning this or maybe its coz of mistranslation. Could you kindly quote the verses? All ive read is tht everyone wld PASS by HELL and the believers and rifhteous would be protected from it.
And then there are the problems you mentioned, and the problems I mentioned earlier in the thread.
So there's considerable proof that jenna and jehannam are states of mind experienced right here on earth.
I will give you a link to Arnold's article about this. You should read it.
JK- Ive read Arnold's views on this but still cannot agree. I mean it is stated that paradise will have features like flowing rivers, wonderful fruits etc and likewise hell with a tree with the heads like tht of evil/wicked/satanic ones, hot boiling water etc. And even Arnold says after this universe another wld be created so obviously there would be features in there wont there? so i dont see any problem there at all? why should jenna n jehannam not be a new world emerging through evolutionary processes? GOD Bless!
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The question is Does Allah sent down new messages because the older ones were corrupted, or because Allah knows that times will change?
peace Yosemite,
Allow me to answer this question,
God doesn't send down messengers. People become messengers by searching the truth and making spiritual progress. They reach a point where they are divinely inspired, and they might decide to write that down in a book.Peace JK,
JK- Hmmmm...ok meaning janna back then was a place on earth..ok.. tht can be accepted but not tht there wont be any new heaven/paradise after the day of judgement.
As a scientist, you can't believe that there will be a physical heaven and hell, because there is no empirical evidence, and there's no reason to believe in it if you don't believe in the concept of the soul.
but I believe that there will be a paradise and a hell after death, but it is there before death too.JK- I didnt come across a direct verse mentioning this or maybe its coz of mistranslation. Could you kindly quote the verses? All ive read is tht everyone wld PASS by HELL and the believers and rifhteous would be protected from it.
I'll find the verse for you. It just says that the people who rise up from hell are great or something like that. It doesn't show whether hell is physical or not, but just that it's not eternal.
JK- Ive read Arnold's views on this but still cannot agree. I mean it is stated that paradise will have features like flowing rivers, wonderful fruits etc and likewise hell with a tree with the heads like tht of evil/wicked/satanic ones, hot boiling water etc. And even Arnold says after this universe another wld be created so obviously there would be features in there wont there? so i dont see any problem there at all? why should jenna n jehannam not be a new world emerging through evolutionary processes? GOD Bless!
Yes, but the descriptions are symbolic.
But the reason the physical heaven and hell arguments don't work is that physical pain can be overcome. It is all in our heads. Happiness and pain is not the result of objects, but the result of our own mindset. That's why different things make different people happy. What you may find disgusting, I find enjoyable.
Flowing rivers and wonderful fruits do not guarantee happiness. Well, I should say physical rivers and fruits. -
Peace bro "phoenix",
Peace JK,As a scientist, you can't believe that there will be a physical heaven and hell, because there is no empirical evidence, and there's no reason to believe in it if you don't believe in the concept of the soul.
but I believe that there will be a paradise and a hell after death, but it is there before death too.JK- You obviously havnt read the omega point theory or bro Arnold's scientific approach to the after life article http//19.org/index.php?id=91,419,0,0,1,0
other wise you wouldnt make the above claim. Moreover there is absolutely no requirement to beleive in a supernatural soul for the afterlife since it is a phenomena where stored information would be recovered and so would be the soul/cosciousness which is there due to certain neural combination in the brain anyways.I'll find the verse for you. It just says that the people who rise up from hell are great or something like that. It doesn't show whether hell is physical or not, but just that it's not eternal.
JK- I agree that hell is not eternal in an absolute sense since tht wont make sense but GOD has made the time of stay there a secret IMO inorder tht ppl not become lazy or less motivated in doing good. Brother Edip has also written an article on that.
Yes, but the descriptions are symbolic.
JK- Id say the descriptions are allegorical meaning they give appx comparisons to wht we already know which is necessary for the description of any new place which we havnt experienced yet. Thts wht allegory's all about.
But the reason the physical heaven and hell arguments don't work is that physical pain can be overcome. It is all in our heads. Happiness and pain is not the result of objects, but the result of our own mindset. That's why different things make different people happy. What you may find disgusting, I find enjoyable.
JK- Physical pain can only be overcome if those partcular neural activities forming it can be relaxed. if they are fixed in place, pain acnnot be overcome. As regards the relaivity of things there are certain things which cause pain and suffering to everone. Intense fire and heat for example make any human suffer and if the neural network is made even more sensitive to their recetion the suffering is even greater and yes last but not least its all in our heads but in hell theres no control, call it neural jam.
Flowing rivers and wonderful fruits do not guarantee happiness. Well, I should say physical rivers and fruits.
JK- True and hence the Quran mentions the greatest triumph is being near to GOD and tht He is satisfied with you and you as a response with Him. Rivers and fruits are mentioned to give an appx comparison so as to motivate people right from here using descoriptions of things we already know as i mentioned earlier. GOD Bless!
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peace JK
Why isn't God supernatural? There isn't any evidence that points only to a creator. It always depends on how you look at it. So there's no conclusive scientific proof of God.
You said that God is "everything." If that's what god is, then how does "everything" keep secrets and punish people. You even took this supernatural God out of the after life.
So please explain to me your concept of God?And doesn't the quran say that this world is an illusion?
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Peace "phoenix",
peace JK
Why isn't God supernatural? There isn't any evidence that points only to a creator. It always depends on how you look at it. So there's no conclusive scientific proof of God.JK- As ive mentioned before the existence of GOD is inevitable if you define GOD by the Infinite Power Source, and not a finite being of any definit shape or size. You must have infinite intelligence to overcome infinite randomness initially. This is exactly what happened when we see how when we observe the universe back in time we see overall enthroopy increaing and then it amazingly decreases because of the physical constants which again have to be set with infinitesimal precision for the contructive allignment of individually infinite stream of particles(quatum particles). If you jump to the mutliverse theory, then the existence of GOD becomes all the more solid since now thered be infinite time if we compare from one universe to another and with infinite time infinite amount of intelligence has to assemble and what was the definition of GOD, Infinite Intelligence so there you go again. This conclusively proves His existence. I cant understand how ppl cannot realize this. But there is still much more evidence even from the scriptures which can prove the existence of one GOD with high probability. Just check otu the core statements of the Vedas, Bible and other religius books and youll find they all mention One god. Its only in the details tht religions have differed. At the core theyr exactly the same. This pattern which came about indepedently from different parts of the world, yet stating the same at the very core is also proof. Ive explained this over and over in many of my posts.
You said that God is "everything." If that's what god is, then how does "everything" keep secrets and punish people. You even took this supernatural God out of the after life.
So please explain to me your concept of God?And doesn't the quran say that this world is an illusion?
JK- I think ive explained it now above and as for the illusion part, tht is somehat misunderstood. Wht i now beleive this arabic term translated so means is tht this world is just temporary and we need to work hard in it and strive being righteous, not tht it is a world controlled by magical forces or so. GOD Bless!
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peace JK,
thanks for the reply.JK- As ive mentioned before the existence of GOD is inevitable if you define GOD by the Infinite Power Source, and not a finite being of any definit shape or size. You must have infinite intelligence to overcome infinite randomness initially. This is exactly what happened when we see how when we observe the universe back in time we see overall enthroopy increaing and then it amazingly decreases because of the physical constants which again have to be set with infinitesimal precision for the contructive allignment of individually infinite stream of particles(quatum particles).
But there are scientists who say that everything is random, and that because humans are good at finding patterns, we think everything is orderly. I think it's a matter of interpretation in the end. You can look at it as random or as orderly, but I don't think there is one concrete answer.
And I learned this in chemistry class last year, entropy tends to increaseJust check otu the core statements of the Vedas, Bible and other religius books and youll find they all mention One god. Its only in the details tht religions have differed. At the core theyr exactly the same. This pattern which came about indepedently from different parts of the world, yet stating the same at the very core is also proof.
That's very true. But again you can argue that there is something in the human psyche, an instinct sort of, that we end up believing htat. And the "one god" itself can have different interpretations. I dunno.
You can only scientifically prove (sort of) a diest God. A god that created the world and left it alone to be run by set laws. That kind of God wouldn't write books and send messengers and create miracles.
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Peace "phoenix",
hey you never called me bro in response. Makes me kinna sad '(peace JK,
thanks for the reply.But there are scientists who say that everything is random, and that because humans are good at finding patterns, we think everything is orderly. I think it's a matter of interpretation in the end. You can look at it as random or as orderly, but I don't think there is one concrete answer.
JK- No everything is definitely not random. Natural selection for example is ANYTHING BUT RANDOM and so are the constants which ultimately allow order to arise out of random variations and this is not just the case at the macro but also the subatomic level.
And I learned this in chemistry class last year, entropy tends to increase
JK- Bioth happens. It depends which place the chemicals are in but in order for something to initiate enthroy must have decreased intitally at certain places meaning infinite randomness had to be overcome.
That's very true. But again you can argue that there is something in the human psyche, an instinct sort of, that we end up believing htat. And the "one god" itself can have different interpretations. I dunno.
JK- Yes and therefore in science we argue about the probability of the truth. If the probability of there being a GOD is say 99% would one risk not to believe? How abt > 99.9999% as derived from the now known accuracy of physical constants necessary to get anything at all. I think nobody would and therefore i beleive even Einstein didnt deny GOD. He only along with Hawkins and some others made the claim tht GOD does no longer intervene.
You can only scientifically prove (sort of) a diest God. A god that created the world and left it alone to be run by set laws. That kind of God wouldn't write books and send messengers and create miracles.
JK- Two points 1) I have to diagree if GOD is the Ultimate Quantum Network then although there is no intervention on the macro level, there is continuos one at the subatomic one because the quantum partiucles continuousless INTERACT WITH EVERYTHING. Therefore we find statements in the Quran saying it is He who raises the clouds, drives the winds and everything else. 2) evn pure deism by no means indicates tht there wont be any scriptures or messengers because who says GOD needs to intervene to produce messengers. Cldnt He have fixed the constants so tht naturally messnegers and the message apear at their appropriate times and aint this even more fascinating? After all GOD says in the Quran tht He has calculated the number of all things. GOD Bless!
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hey you never called me bro in response. Makes me kinna sad
hey, I never call anyone "bro" in my posts, bro. Or even "sis," for that matter. Not a big fan of siblings I suppose.
Nothing against you, though.
I haven't read your whole post yet. Will reply later.
peace. -
peace JK,
sorry, completely forgot about this thread..
Anyway,K- No everything is definitely not random. Natural selection for example is ANYTHING BUT RANDOM and so are the constants which ultimately allow order to arise out of random variations and this is not just the case at the macro but also the subatomic level.
can you give me an example of that? how is the movement of electrons not random?
JK- Yes and therefore in science we argue about the probability of the truth. If the probability of there being a GOD is say 99% would one risk not to believe? How abt > 99.9999% as derived from the now known accuracy of physical constants necessary to get anything at all. I think nobody would and therefore i beleive even Einstein didnt deny GOD. He only along with Hawkins and some others made the claim tht GOD does no longer intervene.
Yes, but they both had different ideas of "God." And Einstien was only religious because of his rebellious personality (using your rationalist argument here), his parents were secular, so he wanted to be religious. But he never believed in the sort of God that writes books and sends down messengers.
JK- Two points 1) I have to diagree if GOD is the Ultimate Quantum Network then although there is no intervention on the macro level, there is continuos one at the subatomic one because the quantum partiucles continuousless INTERACT WITH EVERYTHING. Therefore we find statements in the Quran saying it is He who raises the clouds, drives the winds and everything else. 2) evn pure deism by no means indicates tht there wont be any scriptures or messengers because who says GOD needs to intervene to produce messengers. Cldnt He have fixed the constants so tht naturally messnegers and the message apear at their appropriate times and aint this even more fascinating? After all GOD says in the Quran tht He has calculated the number of all things. GOD Bless!
So everything has been planned out by God?
we are in a movie? If we are, then what's this talk about hell and heaven and resurrection? (a sequel?) If God is the reason people disbelieve, then why don't we blame God? If God is the reason people die horrible deaths, then shouldn't God take the blame?
The American gov't didn't start the Iraq war, God did. If what you are saying is true, then God is a sick, evil, bastard. -
So everything has been planned out by God?
we are in a movie? If we are, then what's this talk about hell and heaven and resurrection? (a sequel?) If God is the reason people disbelieve, then why don't we blame God? If God is the reason people die horrible deaths, then shouldn't God take the blame?Each soul earns its own reward or punishment.
We have free will or rather ?intent? to act (if permitted) on ideas which pop into our heads thus setting up our own dominos of life continuously every moment while God without time-space constraints is witness to our entire journey.
Peace