a challenge to quran aloners!!!

zenje

Peace katara,

if a hadith does not contradict the quran, then there are two possibilities of that hadith

1)true
2)false

and if it contradicts the quran, then of course it is>
1)false
That being the case, what's the purpose of the hadith then? ???

These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which hadith after God and His revelations do they believe?
God has sent down the best narration, a Scripture that is similar with two paths. The skins of those who reverence their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is God's guidance; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whomever God misguides, then none can guide him.

Reminds me of the children of Israel, who were given the best food from God, yet they kept insisting on lentils and onions.

peace

Katara

i'm NOT saying the hadiths are above the quran.
i'm just stating that, like any other books (except the quran--it is the Criterion, divine), or like any other stories, hadiths' validation depend on the quran.

For guidance, deen, we relie solely on the Quran. Nonetheless, we are commanded to read! increase knowledge, listen and take what is best. Using the quran to judge other information.

AlFajr

For guidance, deen, we relie solely on the Quran. Nonetheless, we are commanded to read! increase knowledge, listen and take what is best. Using the quran to judge other information.

Thats true but for teachings about God, the words have to come from an authoritative source.

Peace
Al

zenje

i'm NOT saying the hadiths are above the quran.
i'm just stating that, like any other books (except the quran--it is the Criterion, divine), or like any other stories, hadiths' validation depend on the quran.

I understand what you're saying. My problem is that unlike "any other books", hadith is being held with higher regard, as being some sort of indirect revelation from God.

Peace

phoenix1

Peace to all,

Lobster, what im saying is that , generally you are right, however God does guide whom he chooses whether they want it or not doesnt he,, did Prophet Mohammad ask God to make him a prophet and messenger of God, no, actually from what we read in history he was actually kind of scared and refused it when he was told he was chosen to be Gods messenger, he then spoke with his wife i think who encouraged him to not be scared and not to refuse. Also, what about Jesus , he was sent even as a child before he was born he was chosen, Jesus had no choice in this did he, he was chosen to be a Prophet and messenger before he even existed and then he always said he only does Gods will, never did he do according to his free will, only Gods.

Kurt

peace Kurt,
I disagree with you here. I don't think god just picks random people to guide or misguide or ignore. The prophets became prophets not because god picked them, but they reached that stage of messengership by following the straight path and making spiritual progress.
God doesn't guide. We choose to be guided by him.

IronSky

Peace,

Soo the Quran is wrong about Jesus then Lobster, doesnt it say that he was chosen before his birth to be born of Mary, and that he was taught things even while in the cradle, and strengthened from birth with the holy spirit, so how did Jesus choose this path on his own before his birth, how did he choose his mother,

Kurt

phoenix1

peace,
there are several ways the whole Jesus thing can be interpreted. The way you see it, I disagree with that. I just don't see it that way (that might change). And if the quran is saying what you think it's saying, I still disagree with it.

ILisa

Many want to make this a right and wrong issue. It is far from that, it is a matter of belief issue.... How do we know about the Qur'an except through the Prophet Muhammad (S). And if one full of ignorance dares to say, that it is the hadith that we reject not the Prophet Muhammad (S), ....If we want to reject the Hadith of Sahih Bukhari and Muslims and on, even though they provide us with an unbroken chain of transmitters back to the Messenger of ALLAH (S), then who will we find when we start looking at the chain of transmitters of the Qur'an. Think deeply people and don't be fooled!!!

Greetings Abu Zahrah,

Welcome to free-minds, and as such you're a bit of a 'newbie' here as to how we look at certain concepts so it's at this juncture that I'd like to present to you a concept called 'biognosis', meaning 'knowledge from life'. It's the ability in each and every one of us to see and understand the world around us through the perception of our hearts. In this way, this mode of cognition is a 'way of being' and the world of creation that is around us, never lies nor is ever faulty in what it presents to our perceiving hearts.

2116 Nay, but His is all that is in the heavens and on earth; all things devoutly obey His will....
2118 And those who are devoid of knowldedge say, "Why does God not speak unto us, nor is a sign shown to us?" Even thus, like unto what they say, spoke those who lived before their time their hearts are all alike. Indeed, We have made all the signs manifest unto people who are endowed with inner certainty.

The point I'm getting at is that Allah, via the Qur'an, teaches us how to perceive living knowledge gained from all of creation via our organ of perception --- the heart. While an exaltation of historical religious 'authorities' begets an ossification of knowledge -- a knowledge only of what is dead and gone. Such people who choose to follow these 'authorities' in their day to day living, are actually striving to follow dead knowledge. Eventually they come to show that such a practice hardens their hearts and that they are likely to fall prey to intolerance and bigotry through this line of thinking.

Ossified knowledge is a dead-weight to the world, and it does not matter in what realm of man's intellectual activities it is found....any obstinate clinging to outworn doctrines, whether or religion or politics or morality or of science, are equally damning and equally damnable.
~Stephen Buhner

ade_cool

As Salaamu Alaikum Katara,

Thank you for you response. And I would like to add that Praise be to ALLAH for you recognizing the essentialness of the Prophet Muhammad (S) in our belief. Many want to make this a right and wrong issue. It is far from that, it is a matter of belief issue. How can possibly remove from the picture, the very one through whom the Qur'an was revealed. How do we know about the Qur'an except through the Prophet Muhammad (S). And if one full of ignorance dares to say, that it is the hadith that we reject not the Prophet Muhammad (S), then the same people who transmitted the Qur'an from one generation to the next is the same exact people who transmitted the Hadith.

Excuse me Abu Zahrah ...when Bukhari was not even born, quran was already compiled and had been distributed for around two centuries ...So whatever Bukhari collected during his life time, it has NOTHING to do with quran. Doubting the reliability and the authenticity of Bukhari's collections is by no means doubting quran.

I don't deny the possibility that some sayings of the prophet might have survived through hadiths. I just want to take something as its reality. When I read divine revelations, I take it as divine revelations => (1). And when I read unreliable unauthentic corrupted historical reports => (2), I take it as such. ELEVATING (2) on equal authority as (1) is SHIRK. That scholars call it "obeying messenger" doesn't make it shirk free. Sorry to say that, but the truth has to be spoken.

Last but not least, in case you are not aware, Bukhari even rejected quran. According to Bukhari, the quran we have is not the same as the one revealed to the prophet. "Some" verses are missing according to Bukhari. Please ponder about that brother!

Abu_Zahrah

Do you or anyone one else know what ASBAAB UN NUZOOL is? If you do, please explain it? And why have not anyone yet responded to the Ayat I posted. I provided all of you with textual evidence, logical evidence and even some historical evidence of why we have to look the the detailed life of the Messenger (S) in order to truly follow the Qur'an, and no one, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON, has responded to what I provided, rather all you people can do is harp on the "Bashing Bukhari Bandwagon" You people have absolutely NO scholastic source, no one to refer back to for further understanding, except Non-Muslims, and how interesting is that!!!

AC my friend, there is a historical context in which the revelation occurred in, you and the rest of the chorus should understand that! What do you think the Companions of the Messenger (S) was doing around Him (S) for 23 years of revelation? What do you think the Messenger (S) was doing. History was happening my friend, and it was being recorded, both through memorization, and later expressed through oral tradition, and as well as through written memorization. The Companions did both. But if we just took the "Chorus" word for it, we are left with the idea that Divine Revelation came down upon the Prophet Muhammad (S), was completed and 14 centuries later all we need to do is look to the Qur'an. Where is the historical context? Where is the history? There is a Companion of the Prophet (S) mentioned in the Qur'an by name (do you know who that is?), what was the history behind that? There several incidents mentioned in the Qur'an that addressed the Messenger (S) about an affair that occurred during His (S) time, even directly related to Him (S). What was these things about? How would you know? The Qur'an does not give the details, but the details are important because there is a lesson to be learned from it. And NO, you "Great men of learning" I am not at all saying that the Qur'an left out what was important, I am saying the Qur'an left out the detail of events, rather the details of it was explained by those who witnessed it, and they reported that detail later. Just as we tell of events in our lives, 2, 4, 8, 10 years later, so did these Great Companions, and did so with awe and reverence, for they know they were talking about Divine matters. We remember and speak about outrage mundane matters and can narrate them with accuracy, not these Men of the Messenger, those Blessed People who witnessed Revelation, and passed on what they witnessed. Please, I wish you people get for real!!! Because your arguments are comical to say the least.

But please answer my initial question before you start attacking Imam Bukhari. And if you could respond back to any of what I posted, I would be overjoyed to see it.

Ma Salaam

Katara

Salam Abu,
You said,

"And why have not anyone yet responded to the Ayat I posted. I provided all of you with textual evidence, logical evidence and even some historical evidence of why we have to look the the detailed life of the Messenger (S) in order to truly follow the Qur'an,"

May i know where, which one? I am willing to read and consider it... thanks, D

peace,
aimi

Abu_Zahrah

As Salaamu Alaikum Katara;

It may be a bit tedious to look in each thread and find where a left different post provide the info. you inquired about. But a short cut to this may be helpful if you wish. You can go to the home page, look under 'Members', scroll down to "Abu Zahrah" and click there, go to profile, and under that is has all of the post. You can browse through these and I hope you find what you are looking for. Please let me know if you do or don't. And Islamicity is a nice site to visit and learn from. May ALLAH bless you.

Ma Salaam

phoenix1

peace Abu Zahrah,
lemme answer the questions you posted...and can you post that verse again? Was it on this thread?

On what premise do you accept the Qur'an?
Do you fully believe in the Qur'an and everything it states or partially or what?
Do you believe in fulfilling the injunctions of the Qur'an or is it just a nice reading?
How do you see the Prophet Muhammad (S) in relation to the Qur'an
Do you see the Prophet Muhammad (S) as essential as Muslim or not?

I accept everything in this quran that I have verified to be true.
I don't believe that everything the quran says is true. Not yet, anyway. So, partially, I guess.
I believe that we should base our actions on the truth, so if I find a teaching to be true, I try my best to follow it.
I don't think the prophet muhammad is really important. We don't really know who wrote the quran, and I don't think it's that important, although knowing the context in which the book was written helps in understanding it.
Whoever the prophet was, whoever wrote the quran, put everything they needed to put in it. So the quran is the complete message unless things were altered, taken away, or added later on.
I don't know if I understand the question. If I do, then the answer would be I don't know. If I were there living with him, or I had some other credible source of information, I would know.

As for the hadith, the quran is a book, and I'm sure that whatever was put in there was put in there for a reason, and at least originally, it had the complete message in it. There has never been an author or speaker who delivers only part of his message, and leaves people guessing for the rest of it.
When we read old works of literature like the Oddessey, we interpret what it says based on it's words, not on some other source. That's true with any book.
I have found that if we use the quran alone to understand the quran, using it to understand itself, then it starts making a lot more sense.
But, we know that the quran's words are open to interpretation, and I know that Sunni Muslims take the quran's command to "follow the messenger" to mean "follow the hadith."
I disagree with that interpretation but there's no way I can prove that wrong.

But then again, all of this shouldn't matter at all.
We don't follow books or scriptures or hadiths, we follow the truth. The truth is from god.
So we follow what is true, and we reject the falsehood.
So far, most of the hadith I have read have no truth or useful knowledge or lesson in them.

Katara

Salamun alaikum Abu,

I've read your post. Before i can reply, i need to know if i understood your main point..so do correct me anytime peace You're saying All records of (assumed) prophet's sayings passed from one person to another person or generations -- are validated, protected by God and essential to understand the messages in the quran? ...with, and only with the hadiths, we are guided to practice the messages in quran?

your partner in righteous D,
aimi

Abu_Zahrah

Salaam Katara;

That is basically correct, and let me ask you a question to make it more clear to you. DO you pray? Do you intend to make hajj? do you fast? Do you wish to pay zakah? All of these are commands from ALLAH in the Qur'an, right? That is correct? Now, how would you know how to act out these commands, since none of them are explained in detail in the Qur'an? The Qur'an in these matters gives us the command of what we must do, but not how. While the Sunnah shows us how to fulfill the injunctions of the Qur'an. They go together. The Sunnah complements the Qur'an. And if we want to fully obey ALLAH by doing what HE has required of us, we must look into the life of the Messenger (S), which is found in the authentic Sunnah. That is all I am saying, and this is not from me, this is what the Deen is, despite what is posted in these threads on this site. I hope I helped in this matter, and may ALLAH continue to guide you and bless you.

Ma Salaam

ILisa

Greetings Abu Zahrah,

Just some food for thought Would Allah require something of all of humanity, actions that will decide whether or not we are to go to heaven or hell and not say one direct word in His Book about where to find the additional information outside of His Book?? Or any reference to His words NOT being complete and needing amending by mankind?? As I remember He states His words ARE complete and He could have written much more had He deemed it necessary.

As for Bukhari, here's a great link to another site that one of our forum members just posted yesterday

http//www.free-islam.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=556&PHPSESSID=d174eec3e2f77d6b205b6ce73aa26f41#2421

Have you read it, thought about it?

....And as for your protest of us using 'other sources' ...'from Non-muslims', how do you know the source I quoted was not a muslim? Are you certain he isn't??

Perhaps he is, indeed....

ade_cool

Salam Abu Zahrah,

But please answer my initial question before you start attacking Imam Bukhari.

I have no intention to attack Bukhari. But I would like to state clearly that I have BIG BIG problem to believe that Shahih Bukhari is authentic from Bukhari and at the same time believe that Bukhari is muslim. The reasoning will follow ...

Regarding your questions

On what premise do you accept the Qur'an?

I believe quran is divine revelations from God.

Do you fully believe in the Qur'an and everything it states or partially or what?

Fully.

Do you believe in fulfilling the injunctions of the Qur'an or is it just a nice reading?

I believe quran is applicable and not just a nice reading.

How do you see the Prophet Muhammad (S) in relation to the Qur'an

Prophet Muhammad received the revelations which is quran. I believe the prophet himself did not understand all the meanings of quran. He did explain quran to the best of his knowledge and this is why he prohibited the writing of anything from him except quran.

Do you see the Prophet Muhammad (S) as essential as Muslim or not?

I respect prophet Muhammad. However, unlike sunnis and shias who love him to the extent of associating him as God's partner, I don't. Brother, please keep in mind that Muhammad is ONLY a messenger. If he passed away or was killed, do you turn back?

Shahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas

'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."

I believe in quran so if I were Bukhari, I would surely throw away that hadith when I collected hearsays from the people in my time. Only if I have doubt regarding the authenticity of quran then I will consider that hadith to be true. Now explain to me why Bukhari did include this hadith in his Shahih Bukhari?

Katara

Salaam Katara;

That is basically correct, and let me ask you a question to make it more clear to you. DO you pray? Do you intend to make hajj? do you fast? Do you wish to pay zakah? All of these are commands from ALLAH in the Qur'an, right? That is correct? Now, how would you know how to act out these commands, since none of them are explained in detail in the Qur'an? The Qur'an in these matters gives us the command of what we must do, but not how. While the Sunnah shows us how to fulfill the injunctions of the Qur'an. They go together. The Sunnah complements the Qur'an. And if we want to fully obey ALLAH by doing what HE has required of us, we must look into the life of the Messenger (S), which is found in the authentic Sunnah. That is all I am saying, and this is not from me, this is what the Deen is, despite what is posted in these threads on this site. I hope I helped in this matter, and may ALLAH continue to guide you and bless you.

Ma Salaam

salam abu,

ah, i see. So the premises that supports your main points aresorry, it is a habit of my to paraphrase and summarize stuff--it is my way of learning, no offend p)

we have no adequate knowledge on such topics (hajj, fast, zakah etc)
(the italic part-- i wish to know, is that a fact or an assumption based on limited knowledge of yours?)
The ayat that says, obey God and obey messenger.

Is there more that i should know? thanks! Ouhhh, and just wanna tell you i appreciate the clear and short reply of yours.

with respect,
aimi

edited because i misunderstood sumthing.

Abu_Zahrah

As Salaamu Alaikum

Katara, thank you for the response.

Now, to your post, no I am not saying that we have no adequate knowledge, the Qur'an does provide us with such, however, the finer details of these matters ALLAH leaves out of the Qur'an and guides the Messenger (S) in Sunnah to complete it. There are literally tens of places where ALLAH commands us to pray, and places where ALLAH mentions certain positions of the prayer, however, the details of the prayer, the rules of the prayer is covered by ALLAH through the Sunnah of the Messenger (S). Here Katara, understand this. The Sunnah of the Messenger is part of the guidance from ALLAH! No, it is not part of the Qur'an, but it is part of the complete guidance. For ALLAH raised up the Messenger (S) to guide the people through Him (S). And this entails Him (S) reciting to us the Qur'an and teaching the Qur'an and His (S) Sunnah. Because His (S) Sunnah is a further clarification of the Qur'an. And I already gave you examples before like praying and hajj etc.

As for the Ayat that commands us to obey the Messenger (S), this is in all matters! But all of the matters that the Messenger (S) dealt with and taught us in not contained in the Qur'an. Why? Because, and follow this point closely. The Qur'an is emphatically the words of ALLAH Alone!!! And there is no equivalent word with HIS!!! While in the Sunnah, we not only find the words of ALLAH, we also find the words and actions of the Messenger (S) as it related to the affairs of the Muslims. But this is from the guidance ALLAH also, and this is where we apply the injunction to obey and follow the Messenger (S). Do you understand.

It is important to understand that the Messenger (S) had many roles to assume and guide the people in. He was a judge, He was General, He was a teacher and on like that, so much was coming from Him (S), and in all these aspects ALLAH was guiding Him!!! So take from His (S) Sunnah, because in doing so, you will truly be following the Qur'an, and if you leave off His (S), you can never truly follow the Qur'an!!!

Ma Salaam

ILisa

There are literally tens of places where ALLAH commands us to pray, and places where ALLAH mentions certain positions of the prayer,

Greetings Abu Zahrah,

Please tell me, how is it that the birds and the mountains 'pray'? And God 'prays' to the messenger?......

Also, lots of fruits are mentioned in the Qur'an, if I put them all in one bowl, I can have fruit salad. But making and eating fruit salad was never required of me by God.

Just some more 'food' for thought......