a challenge to quran aloners!!!
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He was never a believer. Oh well. I wont be the one who is going to be answering for him.
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Salam.
Her's a challenge i heard that a movie is coming this way and it tlak about following just The Quran.
What do you think will happen, what wil you do, when you see on the big screen around the world that The Quran is to be followed alone and without sunna and hadith and when the writer shows it in such way where he shows The Proof?
I heard if from a friend of my, in Europe.
Peace.
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peace Alen,
...and our challege is to.. predict the future? Fuyo0o~!
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That's not forgiving. That's like if you broke one of your classroom rules, your teacher tells you to get out. Then when you apologize, she says
"OK. I'll give you 5 hours. If you do everything I tell you to do in that time, I'll forgive you and let you in."
What you are saying means that God hasn't forgiven us yet, but we have to earn his forgiveness.Something is not right here.
If one kid broke classroom rule, do you go and punish every generation to come to that school becouse of that???
Why am I being punished for something Adam did thousands of years ago?? Where is the justice here?
Unless Adam and Eve story has some other meaning. -
peace Dion,
You are right that the logic the person was using is flawed. You can't punish the whole class for just one student's wrong doing. But he did make a good point saying that muslims are wrong in believing that God forgave Adam because if he had forgiven Adam, he would've gone back to paradise and not stayed on earth.
So yes, the adam story has some other meaning. But it's far from the traditional interpretation. -
peace Dion,
.... ...because if He had forgiven Adam, he would've gone back to paradise and not stayed on earth.That's not a fact, but an assumption. When the angels asked God why he wants to create mankind, he answered ___
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peace Aimi
how is that an assumption?
It is a fact that God didn't put Adam back in paradise (according to the traditional understanding at least). That's why we are here on earth.
And if God really had forgiven Adam, he would've given back Adam a place in paradise. If you punish a student by sending them out of class, when you forgive them, you usually bring them back in. Not leave them out. -
Salam phoenix, all. ;D
two assumptions are made here..
firstly
• Their stay on Earth is a punishment
second,
• if God really had forgiven Adam, he would've given back Adam a place in paradise
These two are assumptions, not facts, since no (quranic) prove are given..
Also, check out 237 -- God forgave Adam.
peace. )
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Peace "phoneix"
peace Aimi
how is that an assumption?
It is a fact that God didn't put Adam back in paradise (according to the traditional understanding at least). That's why we are here on earth.
And if God really had forgiven Adam, he would've given back Adam a place in paradise. If you punish a student by sending them out of class, when you forgive them, you usually bring them back in. Not leave them out.JK- Definition, definition, definition! again i must point out "life aint black and white" like the christians wld have it and thts the basic prob with most folks. neither is the meaning associated with words. thters always a certain amount of ambiguity and in this case "forgiven" can mean partial forgiveness meaning tht they were lucky they wernt thrown into hell straight away or atomized n scattered across the entire cosmos. GOD Bless!
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Peace "phoenix",
peace JK, what are those problems? Arnold Yasin wrote an article about janna and jahannam which you should read and see if it solves the problems. If it doesn't. We should discuss them to get rid of the doubts!
JK- One prob which bothers me is that regarding the whole adam satan ibless conversation. it sounds like a direct conversation with adam. next is why are we on earth? i always saw this as a punishment of our original sin as i believed we all sinned WITHIN adam since we were all part of him. I believe if we were all balmeless at birth then why not stay in heaven and come here. GOD Bless!
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peace JK
So what if it's a direct conversation? Don't your thoughts talk to you? don't your emotions persuade you to do something wrong?
I don't know why we are on earth. But the reason we are not in "heaven" is that heaven is experienced right here on earth. It is a mental state. That is the answer to your problem.
There is no original sin. We can all be in heaven just like Adam if we make the right choices. But if we let our desires control us, we will be in hell.
We are all blameless at birth, and so was Adam.I think the problems you have are not against the idea of janna here on earth, but janna as a physical place somewhere else. Right?
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peace JK,
how do you know that?God is merciful, right? how is he merciful if we will be put into hell for eternity?
Look at what satan tempts Adam with. They are all worldly things. Things we all want here on earht in this life. A person spending eternity in heaven will not be tempted by riches and imortality. That conversation is proof enough, I believe.
The quran also says that people can rise up from hell and go toward heaven.
And then there are the problems you mentioned, and the problems I mentioned earlier in the thread.
So there's considerable proof that jenna and jehannam are states of mind experienced right here on earth.
I will give you a link to Arnold's article about this. You should read it.
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Peace "phoenix",
peace JK,
how do you know that?God is merciful, right? how is he merciful if we will be put into hell for eternity?
JK- I didnt say tht i believed hell is eternal, did i? Infact bro Edip has written a good article abt tht.
Look at what satan tempts Adam with. They are all worldly things. Things we all want here on earht in this life. A person spending eternity in heaven will not be tempted by riches and imortality. That conversation is proof enough, I believe.
JK- Hmmmm...ok meaning janna back then was a place on earth..ok.. tht can be accepted but not tht there wont be any new heaven/paradise after the day of judgement.
The quran also says that people can rise up from hell and go toward heaven.
JK- I didnt come across a direct verse mentioning this or maybe its coz of mistranslation. Could you kindly quote the verses? All ive read is tht everyone wld PASS by HELL and the believers and rifhteous would be protected from it.
And then there are the problems you mentioned, and the problems I mentioned earlier in the thread.
So there's considerable proof that jenna and jehannam are states of mind experienced right here on earth.
I will give you a link to Arnold's article about this. You should read it.
JK- Ive read Arnold's views on this but still cannot agree. I mean it is stated that paradise will have features like flowing rivers, wonderful fruits etc and likewise hell with a tree with the heads like tht of evil/wicked/satanic ones, hot boiling water etc. And even Arnold says after this universe another wld be created so obviously there would be features in there wont there? so i dont see any problem there at all? why should jenna n jehannam not be a new world emerging through evolutionary processes? GOD Bless!
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The question is Does Allah sent down new messages because the older ones were corrupted, or because Allah knows that times will change?
peace Yosemite,
Allow me to answer this question,
God doesn't send down messengers. People become messengers by searching the truth and making spiritual progress. They reach a point where they are divinely inspired, and they might decide to write that down in a book.Peace JK,
JK- Hmmmm...ok meaning janna back then was a place on earth..ok.. tht can be accepted but not tht there wont be any new heaven/paradise after the day of judgement.
As a scientist, you can't believe that there will be a physical heaven and hell, because there is no empirical evidence, and there's no reason to believe in it if you don't believe in the concept of the soul.
but I believe that there will be a paradise and a hell after death, but it is there before death too.JK- I didnt come across a direct verse mentioning this or maybe its coz of mistranslation. Could you kindly quote the verses? All ive read is tht everyone wld PASS by HELL and the believers and rifhteous would be protected from it.
I'll find the verse for you. It just says that the people who rise up from hell are great or something like that. It doesn't show whether hell is physical or not, but just that it's not eternal.
JK- Ive read Arnold's views on this but still cannot agree. I mean it is stated that paradise will have features like flowing rivers, wonderful fruits etc and likewise hell with a tree with the heads like tht of evil/wicked/satanic ones, hot boiling water etc. And even Arnold says after this universe another wld be created so obviously there would be features in there wont there? so i dont see any problem there at all? why should jenna n jehannam not be a new world emerging through evolutionary processes? GOD Bless!
Yes, but the descriptions are symbolic.
But the reason the physical heaven and hell arguments don't work is that physical pain can be overcome. It is all in our heads. Happiness and pain is not the result of objects, but the result of our own mindset. That's why different things make different people happy. What you may find disgusting, I find enjoyable.
Flowing rivers and wonderful fruits do not guarantee happiness. Well, I should say physical rivers and fruits. -
Peace bro "phoenix",
Peace JK,As a scientist, you can't believe that there will be a physical heaven and hell, because there is no empirical evidence, and there's no reason to believe in it if you don't believe in the concept of the soul.
but I believe that there will be a paradise and a hell after death, but it is there before death too.JK- You obviously havnt read the omega point theory or bro Arnold's scientific approach to the after life article http//19.org/index.php?id=91,419,0,0,1,0
other wise you wouldnt make the above claim. Moreover there is absolutely no requirement to beleive in a supernatural soul for the afterlife since it is a phenomena where stored information would be recovered and so would be the soul/cosciousness which is there due to certain neural combination in the brain anyways.I'll find the verse for you. It just says that the people who rise up from hell are great or something like that. It doesn't show whether hell is physical or not, but just that it's not eternal.
JK- I agree that hell is not eternal in an absolute sense since tht wont make sense but GOD has made the time of stay there a secret IMO inorder tht ppl not become lazy or less motivated in doing good. Brother Edip has also written an article on that.
Yes, but the descriptions are symbolic.
JK- Id say the descriptions are allegorical meaning they give appx comparisons to wht we already know which is necessary for the description of any new place which we havnt experienced yet. Thts wht allegory's all about.
But the reason the physical heaven and hell arguments don't work is that physical pain can be overcome. It is all in our heads. Happiness and pain is not the result of objects, but the result of our own mindset. That's why different things make different people happy. What you may find disgusting, I find enjoyable.
JK- Physical pain can only be overcome if those partcular neural activities forming it can be relaxed. if they are fixed in place, pain acnnot be overcome. As regards the relaivity of things there are certain things which cause pain and suffering to everone. Intense fire and heat for example make any human suffer and if the neural network is made even more sensitive to their recetion the suffering is even greater and yes last but not least its all in our heads but in hell theres no control, call it neural jam.
Flowing rivers and wonderful fruits do not guarantee happiness. Well, I should say physical rivers and fruits.
JK- True and hence the Quran mentions the greatest triumph is being near to GOD and tht He is satisfied with you and you as a response with Him. Rivers and fruits are mentioned to give an appx comparison so as to motivate people right from here using descoriptions of things we already know as i mentioned earlier. GOD Bless!