a challenge to quran aloners!!!

Katara

salam abu,

i would understand if you said the quran is not enough for understanding.. because we need experiences to relate to its message.. But since there are verses that say the book/law/decree is detailed and explains all things, then your answer to my question can only be a "yes" or "no"..

since the verses did not state "detailed in some aspects" , rather, it says, provides explanation in "all things"..

--

there are at least two ways of approaching the Reading, we read as to..

finding answers to SUPPORT a theory
finding answers as it INTENDED to be

There are many points of view we can look at a topic..but once a view point is known to be NOT right,
seek other point of views..

peace, abu.

Abu_Zahrah

Salaam Katara,

All answers are not yes and no. Life is not a black and white reality. Its not that cut and dry. I just posted a response about the Ayat that deals with the Messenger (S) and how it is distinct from the Qur'an Under "Explain 597", I hope you can see it and that will be helpful. And your point about point of view is a good one, you said"There are many points of view we can look at a topic..but once a view point is known to be NOT right, seek other point of views..And this is what I am trying to convey to this forum, the pont of view that just following the Qur'an, and Qur'an alone slogans are not correct, and they should be abandoned for what has been taught about the Qur'an and the Messenger since the inception of the message. Remember, there comes with the Qur'an and Sunnah and everything else, a historical reality. And thsoe people who say Qur'an alone, have absolutely no connection with this reality!!! For you all, its like the Qur'an just fell off a mountian to you and not knowing nor caring where it came from and how it is to be applied and understood, you boast, Qur'an alone. In order to truly understand it, you need to know the history behind it. And that does not mean in every Ayat if you don't know the history you can gain benefit and guidance from it, no. But in totality, you need to know these things so that you can have the proper understandings. If I get time, I will llist for you the serious mistakes that people on this forum made in trying to interpret the Qur'an by the Qur'an alone, coupled with their ignorance. One cannot seperate the Messenger from the Message!!! He is part and parcel to the Message! Without him, we have no message!!! So how can we have the Message without Him? And to know Him (S) is in the Authentic Hadith!!! And again, if you read my post in 597, the Ayat I posted there makes this point so clear.

Abu_Zahrah

D Argento

YOUR QUESTION

"since you admit the quran is complete, where in the quran is this sunnah of the messenger "

MY ANSWER
"ALLAH said "BUT NO, BY YOUR LORD, THEY CANNOT (TRULY) BELIEVE, UNTIL THEY MAKE YOU, ( O MUHAMMAD), JUDGE CONCERNING OVER WHICH THEY DISPUTE AMONGST THEMSELVES AND THEN FIND WITHIN THEMSELVES NO DISCOMFORT FROM WHAT YOU HAVE JUDGED AND SUBMIT IN (FULL, WILLING) SUBMISSION." (465)

ALLAH said ("IT IS NOT FOR FOR A BELIEVING MAN OR BELIEVING WOMAN, WHEN ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAVE DECIDED A MATTER, THAT THEY SHOULD (THEREAFTER) HAVE ANY CHOICE ABOUT THEIR AFFAIR. AND WHOEVER DISOBEYS ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAS CERTAINLY STRAYED INTO CLEAR ERROR". (3336)

AND ALLAH SAID; "MAKE NOT THE CALLING OF THE MESSENGER AMONG YOU AS YOUR CALLING OF ONE ANOTHER. ALLAH KNOWS OF YOU WHO SLIP AWAY UNDER SHELTER. AND LET THOSE WHO OPPOSE THE MESSENGER'S COMMANDMENTS BEWARE, LEST SOME TRIAL BEFALL THEM OR A PAINFUL TORMENT BE INFLICTED ON THEM". (2463)

AND ALLAH SAID "AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM, COME TO WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED AND TO THE MESSENGER, YOU SEE THE HYPOCRITES TURNING AWAY FROM YOU IN AVERSION". (461)

YOUR QUESTION

"and what does hajj mean according to the quran?

MY ANSWER

"Surah 3 Ayat 96-97"

YOUR QUESTION

"The earth is a sphere as we all know, so being such there will be some place directly under 'makka' how do they face the kaaba during salaat?

MY ANSWER

This question is extremely absurd and the most ridiculous one that I have heard so far on this forum but...

Mr D Argento, I live in America, and ABOVE AMERICA IS CANADA, but when I look up, I don't see Canada. No geographical site on the earth will see another if you look directly above, all who look above them will see the sky. I mean I can't even believe I am answering something as silly as this, but it just goes to show where you people are.

ILisa

One cannot seperate the Messenger from the Message!!! He is part and parcel to the Message! Without him, we have no message!!! So how can we have the Message without Him?

Ouch! What are you saying??

Samia

One cannot seperate the Messenger from the Message!!! He is part and parcel to the Message! Without him, we have no message!!! So how can we have the Message without Him?

The postman delivers our mail. Without him we can't have the mail. He is part and parcel to the mail. Would I go around collecting information about his life from, not a third but a tenth plus party, and believe those stories? Why for? Why would I search his life story in the first place? I have my mail to read, and it's much more important.

IronSky

Peace to all,

lol Samia, that was a perfect analogy that was funny at the same time,

great point and well put.

Kurt

phoenix1

peace Abu Zahra

There's a "wisdom quotes" thread on this forum, if you take a look at it, you'll find many wise sayings by many people. And guess what...you don't have to know a single thing about any one of those people to understand those quotes.
The truth is strong enough to stand on its own. When we see it, we recognize it, and we should follow it, regardless of who the speaker/author is.
If satan tells people to do good deeds, doing good doesn't become evil.
The messenger doesn't matter that much. Consulting the messenger might be a good idea if we want to know his/her interpretation. For example a lot of people have been asking JK Rowling about her books to find out about the themes, symbols etc. But the thing is, when so many people read a book, be it harry potter or the quran, some people are sure to hit upon the intended interpretation of the author. Most of what Rowling said about her books had already been guessed by many readers.
So yeah, although I don't look at the prophet's role in relation to the quran the same way Samia does, I do agree that the messenger isn't very important at all. Let's be fair to the messenger and study what he gave us, instead of making guesses about his personal life, and let's trust the messenger, and accept that he put everything he needed for us to know about his message in this volume (assuming it hasn't been altered in anyway since then).

phoenix1

oh, and Canada is to the north of the US, not "above" it. Big huge difference.

Because the Earth is round, no matter which way you're facing, you're facing Mecca.....right?

but maybe we aren't supposed to face mecca literally, but as a symbolic act of unity. Maybe that's what sunni muslims are supposed to do.

But it makes no sense whatsoever, so this whole idea is just wrong.

Samia

peace Abu Zahra

Let's be fair to the messenger and study what he gave us, instead of making guesses about his personal life, and let's trust the messenger, and accept that he put everything he needed for us to know about his message in this volume (assuming it hasn't been altered in anyway since then).

Salaam Lobster

That's a good meaning for "obey the messenger". We are obeying him more than the hadithists. We trust that he delivered the message honestly and complete ...nothing added, nothing hidden in a pile of yellow books,nothing missing, nothing abrogated...and definitely nothing eaten up by a goat.

afridi220

peace

It's the fakest personal story I've ever read.
BUT, he makes a very very very good point here
I had learned in the Quran that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were living in Paradise until they committed sin. (This is the same in the Bible.) But in the Quran I was told they were forgiven of their sins. I asked my Muslim friends, "If they were forgiven of their sin, then why did God being so merciful and gracious make them leave the garden? Does it mean He did not forgive them?"
He's right. The story doesn't add up. UNLESS we realize that the garden is here on earth in this life.

Salaam all

I think you peoples are forgetting a very important aya, when god said to the angels i,m going to create Adam from clay what the angels said to god what they will do on earth, so it is clear that they were only guest in the garden.

Peace

arnoldyasin

Salaam Aleikum,

We all know the Prophet's biggest mission was a social one, liberate the slaves, the women, help the poor, crerate a fair system of Life where everyone is equal.

The tradition wants us to believe Hajj is a pilgrimage with several rituals. But a pilgrimage is a personal salvation ritual, it does not create a fair system of life, it does not liberate anybody. And Hajj does not even mean "pilgrimage".

So it is time to explain why the Hajj is not a Pilgrimage. A ritual that is meant for personal salvation only, and not a global goal. The Quran itself clearly says it is meant for all of mankind. It's goal is unity of the people

The Quran is to free mankind from misery by guiding it to the Social system that will sustain peace and nourishment for ALL Mankind. It is not about God, but about us. Rituals as shaving your head and ritual baths are done to 'please' God, as if He needs the acknolwedgement and is pleased by trivial things as shoes that cover the middle bone.

He created the Universe, with all of its stars and galaxys, so we can peform these trivial things?

in verse 3191 it says "...Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above You are from creating anything in vain!..."

No, the Quran is here to give us stature in life!

2110 O Mankind! Now We have revealed unto you a Book that is all about you and it will give you eminence. Will you not, then, use your sense? (2124, 2370, 4343-44).

This verse clearly shows the Quran is for us, this is why Parwez says in his exposition of this verse "Allah has no personal motives in it" as Allah is above need.

All Laws in the Quran, all given concepts as Hajj and Saum and Salat are all meant to UNITE Mankind, not to worship Allah.

We can approach Hajj as a ritual gathering where everyone will only focus on Allah, on acknowledging Allah's Supramecy. We can all focus on Fasting to be meant for Allah. We can focus on Salat as only meaning Prayer. These concepts all come through approaching the Quran from a religious point of view.

But as I have told, these are all man-made ideas on what Allah demands. Allah says in the Quran that WE are the focus.

2094 Aaron said, "O Son of my mother! Don't get mad at me, nor treat me harshly. I feared that you would say, You have let the Children of Israel divide into parties and sects." (Moses accepted this explanation since sectarianism is no less a crime than idol worship in any form. Seizing the beard and head pertains to harsh interrogation 7150).

When we approach the Quran from a Deen point of view, it all becomes different. The Quranic purpose is to give Mankind the Perfect Divine System to unite them and give us eminence. So an idea on Hajj being only to focus on Allah is NON-Quranic.

The same holds for the word Salat. Salat means To Follow Closely, Attachment, Contact, Prayer and many more meanings. If we approach the Quranic Goal to be acknowledging Allah, to be a religious Book focussed on acknowledging Allah, then it is logical Salat means Prayer. But since it is clear WE are the focus of the Quran, then the meaning becomes totaly different.

The meaning of Salat is explained in

2441 Do you not realize that Allah, He it is Whom all beings in the heavens and the earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in columns. All of them know their SALAT and TASBEEH (mission and strife). Allah is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.

Tasbeeh means To Strive Hard, To go on a Quest/Mission, To Take Long Strides. Salat means To Follow Closely.

So in order of the verse, all beings knows what to follow closely to strive hard on their quest, they know their Salat and Tasbeeh.

What do animals follow? Their instinct which tells them how to work the Laws of Nature in the best way so to become the strongest and multiply.

We as humans don't have an instinct on a dominant level. So to follow the Laws of Nature, we must observe them closely. But there are also many Laws we can't observe through Scientific Research. These Laws are explained to us through Revelation. Revelations are Instincts for Mankind to follow voluntarely.

So Salat means to Follow the Divine Laws of Nature and Revelation so we can know how to strive hard on our Quest and Mission.

This is the difference and importance of approach. Believe in One God is a confirmation of Reality and the first step into uniting Mankind and the Muslims. But it is the same approach to the Quran which will truly unite us. It is clear the Quran is focussed on us, not on Allah. He has given us the Quran so we can become the best people on Earth. To make Paradise on earth that will be continued in the Next Life. We must all approach the Quran from this point, and then the true meanings of words become clear.

The Quran is also complete when it comes to the issues in matter of Deen, Allah has left out the rituals, but Allah does not forget, nor is the Quran incomplete or insufficient.

6115 Perfected is the Word of your Lord in Truth and Justice. None can change His Words and His Laws. This announcement comes to you from the Profound Hearer, the Knower.

The majority belief is not the criterion, the Quran is.

6116 (People will confront you with what the majority is doing.) Now if you pay heed to, or get intimidated by majority of those who live on earth, they will lead you astray from Allahs Way. Most of the people follow nothing but conjecture and they only live by guesswork.

251 Most Blessed is He Who has revealed to His servant, the Criterion of the right and the wrong so that to the entire world it might be a warning.

Allah warns us not to be like the people of Moses.

2108 Would you demand of your Messenger what was demanded of Moses in the past? But whoever chooses the darkness of Ignorance instead of the Light of Faith, has already strayed from the Right Way.

They kept asking frivolous details about how the heifer should look. If Allah cared about those details, He would have mentioned it, Allah does not play games with people. If you study the story of the heifer in Surah 2, you can see they keep asking more details, and because of this, they get such a difficult task to find such a heifer, adn they all did this to themselves as Allah never asked for that.

1.The Quran and all its goals are meant for us to unite mankind on Earth. so we can create Paradise here, which will be continued in the Next Life. The Quran only explains Allah, not how we should acknowledge Him through rituals.

2.The Quran is complete and detailed.

Hajj, the root means 'to argue'. This is also the way it has been used in the Quran.

= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.
Refrain/abstain.

See under the letter = Ha at the Rootlist

Rootlist

Some examples of Tasreef on the word Hajja

Wa-itha laqoo allatheena amanooqaloo amanna wa-itha khalabaAAduhum ila baAAdin qaloo atuhaddithoonahumbima fataha Allahu AAalaykum liyuhajjookumbihi AAinda rabbikum afala taAAqiloona

Behold! when they meet the men of Faith, they say "We believe" But when they meet each other in private, they say "Shall you tell them what Allah hath revealed to you, that they may engage you in argument about it before your Lord?"- Do ye not understand (their aim)?

And when they meet the believers, they say, "We believe," but when they get together with each other, they say, "Do not inform (the believers) of the information given to you by GOD, lest you provide them with support for their argument concerning your Lord. Do you not understand?"

Qul atuhajjoonana fee Allahiwahuwa rabbuna warabbukum walana aAAmalunawalakum aAAmalukum wanahnu lahu mukhlisoona

Say Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that We are sincere (in our faith) in Him?

Say, "Do you argue with us about GOD, when He is our Lord and your Lord? We are responsible for our deeds, and you are responsible for your deeds. To Him alone we are devoted."

Alam tara ila allathee hajjaibraheema fee rabbihi an atahu Allahualmulka ith qala ibraheemu rabbiya allatheeyuhyee wayumeetu qala ana ohyeewaomeetu qala ibraheemu fa-inna Allahaya/tee bialshshamsi mina almashriqi fa/ti biha minaalmaghribi fabuhita allathee kafara waAllahula yahdee alqawma alththalimeena

Hast thou not Turned thy vision to one who disputed with Abraham About his Lord, because Allah had granted him power? Abraham said "My Lord is He Who Giveth life and death." He said "I give life and death". Said Abraham "But it is Allah that causeth the sun to rise from the east Do thou then cause him to rise from the West." Thus was he confounded who (in arrogance) rejected faith. Nor doth Allah Give guidance to a people unjust.

Have you noted the one who argued with Abraham about his Lord, though GOD had given him kingship? Abraham said, "My Lord grants life and death." He said, "I grant life and death." Abraham said, "GOD brings the sun from the east, can you bring it from the west?" The disbeliever was stumped. GOD does not guide the wicked.

Fa-in hajjooka faqul aslamtu wajhiyalillahi wamani ittabaAAani waqul lillatheena ootooalkitaba waal-ommiyyeena aaslamtum fa-inaslamoo faqadi ihtadaw wa-in tawallaw fa-innama AAalaykaalbalaghu waAllahu baseerun bialAAibadi

So if they dispute with thee, say "I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah's sight are (all) His servants.

If they argue with you, then say, "I have simply submitted myself to GOD; I and those who follow me." You shall proclaim to those who received the scripture, as well as those who did not, "Would you submit?" If they submit, then they have been guided, but if they turn away, your sole mission is to deliver this message. GOD is Seer of all people.

Ya ahla alkitabi lima tuhajjoonafee ibraheema wama onzilati alttawratuwaal-injeelu illa min baAAdihi afalataAAqiloona

Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?

O followers of the scripture, why do you argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed until after him? Do you not understand?

16
Line359 Ha antum haola-i hajajtumfeema lakum bihi AAilmun falima tuhajjoona feemalaysa lakum bihi AAilmun waAllahu yaAAlamu waantumla taAAlamoona

Ah! Ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not!

You have argued about things you knew; why do you argue about things you do not know? GOD knows, while you do not know.

You will see that ALL uses of Hajja has to do with argue/dispute/argument. So my conclusion is that the word Hajj itself must also be approached as such, and not as Pilgrimage.

It also means 'to cure a wound on the head' as seen in Lane's Lexicon

.~, (TA,) He probed
a fracture of the head, (],) or a wound,

,
signifies he probed a fracture of his head for thke
purpose of curing it

It also means a year

_, in four place. - Also A
year (S, Msb, V) pl. r .. (S,A, MNb.)
You say, i o ,. .i-l , andl .L..b i.

This can also been seen in the verse

2827 He (the father) said, "Behold, I am willing to let you marry one of these two daughters of mine on the understanding that you will remain eight years in my service. Then if you make it ten,.....

So we have the Quranic use of Hajja as 'to argue/dispute/argument/debate' and as a 'year'. So Hajj can be thus interpretated as a Yearly Debate. This is held in the known months, which are also given in the Quran.

2194 You may fight during the Months of Peace and Security if you are attacked, for, a violation of sanctity will activate the Law of Just Retribution. So, the one who attacks you should expect retaliation in like manner. Be mindful of Allah, and know that Allah is with those who walk aright.

95 When the four Sacred Months are over and if the idolaters are still aggressing, (neither becoming law-abiding citizens of the State, nor emigrating), subdue them whichever tribe they may belong to, take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent from aggression, and help in the consolidation of the Divine System and in setting up the Just Economic Order of Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Forgiving Merciful (so shall you be).

936 Allah has ordained twelve months in one year. This has been Allahs Ordinance since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of these Months are Sacred, forbidden for all warfare. (Mankind, through international treaties, must agree to shun all kind of warfare during these four months. This will give them a cooling off period that sense may prevail over emotions). This is the Firm Religion, the right way. So, do not wrong yourselves by fighting during the Sacred Months. However, you may fight the idolaters in any or all these months if they fight against you in any or all of them (2194). And know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (Four Sacred Months 2194, 91-5).

To know the 4 months is a long discussion, which will be explained later.

397 Therein are clear Messages (to achieve that coveted goal and recall) how Abraham once took his stand (against all divisions of humanity and was granted the leadership of all mankind 2124-125). Those who enter the System symbolized thereby shall find inner peace and external security. Hence, joining the Hajj Convention at this Meeting Point for the Cause of Allah alone is DUE ON ALL MANKIND who have the circumstantial means to undertake the visit. One who denies (this Wisdom, should know that) verily, Allah, the Rich is Self-Sufficient, want-free of any peoples.

But it is clear that we have 4 months of Peace. The subject is that the idolaters must stop the aggression. All of Mankind is asked to perform the Hajj, not just the Muslims. The meaning of Hajja is used in the Quran as Year and as 'to argue/dispute/argument/debate'. The word also means 'to go for an aim/to partake on a noble cause'. Also it refers to 'probing and curing wounds on heads'.

All of these together shows me that Hajj means a Yearly Global Debate that is meant to stop wars on Earth, by probing the issue and through discussion curing it.

I have used the Quran to explain it, and not loosing view on the global goal of the Quran. The Quran is meant to make a collective unity of Mankind based on the Divine Laws of Nature and Revelation. This is not done through personal salvation rituals as Pilgrimage.

This show that the traditional rituals that are attributed to Hajj, are false not only because they are non-Quranic, but also because they go against the main purpose of the Quran and the meaning of Hajj.

Hajj is the annual Convention in a specified time while Umrah is a visit to the Masjid of Makkah any time during the year. Both have a sublime objective as the Quran explains, although Muslims have reduced them into mere rituals similar to the Days of Ignorance. There is no mention of kissing the black-stone in Kabah, any "holiness" about the ZAM ZAM water, or that of throwing rocks at the three pillars signifying Satan. See footnote to Surah 105. The Noble Objective of the Pilgrimage is to arrange regular and intermittent international conferences in Makkah. Delegates from all over the world would get together there and devise ways to make the world a better place to live.

What is Haj as per Quraa'n

2196 (Peace cannot defend itself. Mankind has to guard it.) Therefore, observe the Hajj or Umrah Convention for Allah. If you are stranded, send in gifts that the congregation would utilize. Do not consider that by doing so you have relieved yourself of duty. Be with them at heart until the gifts have reached their destination. If someone is sick or has other compelling burdens denying him sending any contribution, then Abstinence for a few days at convenience, or an act of charity or fulfilling someones need shall be in order. If a person is present at the Convention but cannot afford to contribute, he should exercise Abstinence for a total number of ten days, three days there and seven days after coming home. This is for him whose folk do not live in the vicinity of the Convention. Be mindful of Allah, remembering the noble objective. And know that Allah's Law of Requital is strict in pursuing and grasping.

2197 The Convention shall take place in the months appointed for it and made well known to all. Whoever participates in the Convention shall refrain from sexual intimacy, slipping out of discipline and argumentation throughout Hajj. And whatever you accomplish for the good of mankind, Allah will acknowledge it. So make ample provision, yet the best provision is your good conduct. Be mindful of Me, O You of understanding!

2198 (The Convention is not an assembly of monks.) There is no blame on you if you seek the bounty of your Lord by trading. Returning in groups from where you got introduced to one another (Arafat) let your experience be a conscious and ever-lasting monument to peace in your lives. Take Allahs Messages to heart, and remember Him in the way He has directed you. And, verily, before this you were wandering to and fro.

2199 (When the Convention is over), let the congregation return to their hometowns without much delay. (Implement what you have learned and decided upon and) seek from Allah security and protection for mankind through this Program. Behold, Allah is the Provider of protection, Absolver of Imperfections, Eternally Merciful.

2200 When you have completed your duties, then, remain conscious of Allah with a stronger commitment than you used to display for your ancestors and their ways. (Their pilgrimage used to be momentary fun of ritualism.) Among the people is he who says, Our Lord! Give unto us in this world. But he, who looks only for instant gains disregarding the long term, has no portion in the Hereafter.

2201 And of them is he who says, Our Lord! Give unto us in this world that which is good, and in the Hereafter that which is good, and guard us from the doom of Fire.

2202 It is they for whom is a decent portion what they have themselves earned. And Allah is Swift in reckoning. (Actions get their imprints stamped upon the human 'Self' in this very life.)

2203 Remember Allah in the counted number of days (of the Convention.) Then if someones departure were hastened by a couple of days, there would be nothing detrimental. And if someones departure were delayed by a couple of days, there would be no detriment either. This is for him who lives upright. Be mindful of Allah, and know that all of you together are stepping toward the ultimate destination with Allah.

2204 (About delegating political authority, remember that) there is among mankind he whose chatter on worldly affairs dazzles you, and he keeps swearing by Allah about what is in his heart. And he is exceedingly skillful in contending for his viewpoint. (28-12)

2205 But as soon as he attains political power he goes all out spreading corruption in the earth. His authority results in destruction of the produce of land and labor and the damage he does affects generations - whereas Allah loves not corruption.

2206 When it is said to him, Be mindful of Allah, his false pride plunges him further down in inhumanity. Well, sufficient will be Hell for him what a cradle of despondence! (Such officials will be removed from office.)

2207 And of mankind is he who dedicates himself to achieve the goals ordained by Allah. And Allah is Compassionate to His servants (showing them both, the way to success and the way to failure. 34, 3923, 91

2208 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Enter whole-heartedly the Prescribed Way of Life that guarantees peace and security. And follow not the trails of the Satan. Verily, he is your open enemy that lays bare your flaws.

2209 And if you backslide after all evidence of the Truth has come to you, then know that Allah is Almighty, Wise. (The Divine Laws will overcome you.)

Sources

-QXP2 by Dr.Shabbir Ahmad
-Quran translations of Yusuf Ali and Dr.Rashad Khalifa
-Lane's Lexicon Ar-En dictionary
-Dictionary of the Holy Quran by AM Omar

ILisa

Greetings Arnold Yasin,

Such a succinct compilation about the Qur'anic meanings of these terms that is so clear and easy to understand!

Thank you and God bless!

Samia

The Noble Objective of the Pilgrimage is to arrange regular and intermittent international conferences in Makkah. Delegates from all over the world would get together there and devise ways to make the world a better place to live.

Salaam Arnold

A good explanation of the "hajj". But how did you arrive at the fact that this international conference should take place in "Makkah"?

ILisa

Greetings

Hey, I missed that point!

I'm with Samia, why only Makkah?

arnoldyasin

Salaam Aleikum,

I have used QXP by Dr.Shabbir for the last verses on Hajj. I myself believe Hajj can be anywhere as long it upholds the Quranic criteria. The Quran is a Book for all ages to come, so also when Mankind will cultivate and explore space. Islam follows Mankind, and thus Hajj and other implications cannot be fixed to positions, they can only be fixed on achieving certain goals.

Abu_Zahrah

Greetings Samia,

how are you? Your response seems full of logic, on the surface, and this seems to be the dominant trait of you all. You think that your logic is above the guidance and its aspects. Now to deal with your logic and actually show you how fallacious it actually is.

I stated "One cannot separate the Messenger from the Message!!! He is part and parcel to the Message! Without him, we have no message!!! So how can we have the Message without Him?"
In your attempted rebuttal;

You stated"The postman delivers our mail. Without him we can't have the mail. He is part and parcel to the mail. Would I go around collecting information about his life from, not a third but a tenth plus party, and believe those stories? Why for? Why would I search his life story in the first place? I have my mail to read, and it's much more important."

Now, had you been receiving mail from GOD, and contained in that mail was the order to obey and follow the mail man, that would change the whole affair, now wouldn't it. You see, you all fail to realize that this is a divine injunction!!! This is not a worldly recommendation. And I am glad that you used that example of the mailman, because that is a pretty CLEAR example! So, since you are not receiving any Divine Mail from GOD, yes continue to read your mail, and carry on. However, for those who want to follow the Qur'an, then it commands us to obey and follow the Messenger (S), so that being the case, I will search His life story, because GOD has made His life story ABSOLUTELY relevant to the Message the GOD revealed. BOTTOM LINE!!!

And think a bit more deeper before you employ sarcasm, because the worst thing is when your own sarcasm is the means of you being the fool.

Samia

Salaam Abu zahra

I am fine, thank you, still reading "my mail"

(Yes, of course, we received "the mail" from God, via this messenger. The messenger told us that he was sent from God, so we took the "mail" and read it and realized it could only be from God. We believed the messenger. Anytime we had a question, the messenger would answer, but we were not sure. Another patch of mail arrives, in it are our questions and the answers given by the messenger. We trusted him more and we had to obey the messenger on what he taught us, until "the mail" was complete and in it all our questions and all that the messenger said. As the end of all creation, the messenger died, but the message he delivered tells volumes of his honesty and good manners told by God. He did not hide any information and did not lie to us. God bless him).

That's how our fathers should have told the story of their obedience to the messenger.

Time passed and some imposters disguised as good people started to add to what the messenger said. I was not there when the messenger gave the replies, but I have a record of them in the "mail". Should I believe those people? Has God asked me to follow/believe/ obey the messenger through some people (I do not even know if they existed or not), just because they said that their father told them that his friend had a neighbour who happened to have travelled with the cousin of the friend of a friend of the prophet who told this friend who told his other friend who told his cousin who was travelling with the neighbour who was the friend of their father....where was I?

It doesn't even sound true! How would someone remember what his dead father said, let alone what was told to his father? Be realistic!

Obey the messenger means obey him first hand. No intermediaries.

And this is no sarcasm. Want real sarcasm? Read hadith.

ILisa

Greetings Abu Zahrah,

And think a bit more deeper before you employ sarcasm, because the worst thing is when your own sarcasm is the means of you being the fool.

..and think a bit more deeply...

Falcon

I share completely Samia's view on the Messenger. Plus, obeying him was probably a temporal command, one that couldn't be applied litterally but when he was alive and the leader of Muslims. His orders, had they made it to our time, were for his time and place.

re Adam and Eden, I always understood the Adam's sin and his departure from Eden as two different stories. He was forgiven for the first, the second was an honor to mankind who, made at the image of God (or to be more accurate, contains something of His spirit), was to be the Regent of this world.

In the same thread of things different from Christianity, I like the moral ambiguity of the Quranic story of Satan. Satan was cursed because he refused to bow down unto Man, an imperfect being who does mischief, and he took it upon himself to prove it.

Abu_Zahrah

Greetings Samia;

you want to hear some irony, that will that will shatter your story, IT IS, THAT THE QUR'AN WAS PASSED DOWN THE SAME EXACT WAY. THE REASON THAT WE HAVE THE QUR'AN IN TACT TODAY IS BECAUSE PEOPLE TOOK IT TO MEMORY, THE ENTIRETY OF IT. LEARNED IT RULES OF RECITATION, AND SAT DOWN WITH A SCHOLAR, WITH PASSED ON TO HIM THE EXACT RECITATION OF THE QUR'AN THAT HE RECEIVED FROM A SCHOLAR, WHO TOOK IT FROM ANOTHER SCHOLAR, WHO TOOK IT FROM YET ANOTHER SCHOLAR WHO TOOK IT FROM THE LIKES OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE DURING THE TIME OF BUKHARI AND OTHERS WHO TOOK IT FROM THE STUDENTS OF THOSE WHO LEARNT FROM THE STUDENTS OF THE COMPANIONS WHO TOOK IT FROM THE STUDENTS OF THE COMPANIONS THEMSELVES, WHO TOOK IT DIRECTLY FROM THE COMPANIONS, WHO TOOK IT FROM MESSENGER OF ALLAH (S), WHO RECEIVED IT FROM THE ANGEL JIBRIL, WHO WAS ENTRUSTED WITH IT BY ALLAH. ALLAHU-AKBAR!!!

This is how this knowledge was carried from one generation to the next with careful preservation of transmission. So, suit yourself not to believe it, but it is true!!! Just come to the real word and open up your eyes.

And in due time, I am going to post, some Ayat from the Qur'an that if you are not grounded in knowledge and faith, they would make one think that what you say about the Hadith. Again, truth is not based on your inadequate reason!!! It is based on truth, no matter how absurd it may sound to you.