How do you do the salat
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Peace Phoenix and Tanveer,
Ohhhh~ i feel warm and fuzzy when you call me by my name. lol
Hey, cool lesson! Which brings me to another question, So... is there any command in the quran that say perform a physical prayer which involve bowing and protrating, literally? If there isn't.. hmm...
Oh, and, before this, i got the impression that "the day/time" in 6842 was refering to Judgement Day.. now i see it can have other meaning,too.
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peace
I do think salat HAS a physical aspect, but it just doesn't involve bowing and prostrating. Also, aren't we supposed to be still in our salat? (I think there is a verse that says that).
Tanveer, I still don't see from those verses how prostrating can be sometimes physical.
We don't need to SHOW God our obedience. God can see through us. And God is everywhere, so which way to we prostrate?And Aimi, is your name the same as Amy? how is it pronounced, exactly?
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Peace Phoenix,
We don't need to SHOW God our obedience. God can see through us. And God is everywhere, so which way to we prostrate?
I think you missed a part of my post. Here it is again
"As I see it, the physical component is not because Allah needs to be worshipped or for Him to know how we think or feel, BUT FOR OUR OWN BENEFIT. The physical component REINFORCES the mental component for ourselves; it reinforces and aids in the programming of our nafs/soul and solidifying our mental/neuronal pathways of humility and obedience so that we are able to walk the straight path and do good deeds in a better/best manner (it improves our CONDITIONED POSITIVE RESPONSES)."
Aimi said the same thing in a different way before
The way i understand, is that human's communication consist verbal and high percentage of nonverbal means. Hm, does anyone bow his/her head or lowering their eyes..etc during or after reading the quran or simply when talking to God? Nonverbal behavior complements, subtitutes, or even emphasizes a messege... So perhaps by bowing and prostate, one's humbleness, or the intention to be humble to God will increase, the actions can strengthen your faith or even can "say" what words cannot describe.
Peace
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Peace Phoenix,
Tanveer, I still don't see from those verses how prostrating can be sometimes physical.
Well, then, please answer these questions that I posed in my post
How can one mentally prostrate to the sun or the moon ? (4137, 2724)
How did the magicians GO DOWN prostrating mentally ? (7120)
How can one mentally fall down on one's chin in sujood ? (17107)
I do think salat HAS a physical aspect, but it just doesn't involve bowing and prostrating. Also, aren't we supposed to be still in our salat? (I think there is a verse that says that).
Which brings me to another question, So... is there any command in the quran that say perform a physical prayer which involve bowing and protrating, literally? If there isn't.. hmm...
THE PHYSICAL PARTS OF SALAT
In my understanding, according to al-qur'aan, the timed/regular salat of the muslimeen/mumineen especially when it is mentioned as "aqimi al-salat" is definitely a physical act in addition to the non-physical aspect. Following are my different proofs from al-qur'aan
- ORATION/RECITATION FROM AL-QUR'AAN IN A MODERATE TONE
Oration/recitation of al-qur'aan is a physical act, and Allah has asked us to do it in a moderate tone which is definitely "physical"
17110 ?Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in your salat nor too quite; but seek a path in between.?
17111 And Say "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And glorify Him greatly.- STANDING IN SALAT
We are supposed to "stand" for salat, which is another physical act
4102 ?And if thou are with them and you uphold the salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard behind you; and let a group who has not yet ?Yusaloo? come and ?Yusaloo? with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them.
340 ?The Angels called to him while he was standing 'Yusali' in the temple enclosure ?God gives you good tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright.??
- PHYSICAL PROSTRATION IN SALAT
Prostration as is mentioned in the following verses is definitely physical
17108 Say "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating, and they Say "Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled."
4102 ?And if you are with them and you uphold the salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard behind you; and let a group who has not yet ?Yusaloo? come and ?Yusaloo? with you
The context of 17108 and 4102 is clearly the salaat.
- PRE-SALAT PHYSICAL WASHING
salat requires cleanliness.......why would a "non-physical process" require "physical" cleanliness ?
58 ?O you who believe, if you rise to attend the salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands.
- SALAT CAN BE UPHELD WHILE WALKING OR RIDING TOO
In salat we don't have to be still necessarily.
2237 ?Preserve the salawaat, and the balanced salat, and stand devoutly for God.
2238 But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.?In view of these verses, while in a state of worry/fear, salaat can be upheld while walking or riding and thus does not involve physical prostration, in my understanding.
In state of worry we don't have to stand stationary, or do sujood but we can only recite from al-qur'aan to remember and glorify Allah which is the main purpose of the timed/regular salat.
It does seem there is no convincing evidence of a physical ruku' as part of salat in al-qur'aan but maybe a physical kneeling position is allowed (it is impossible to perform a physical sujood on the chin without kneeling first).
Peace
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peace Tanveer,
that's figurative language. Like when the quran says that certain people are blind. If they fell down prostrating, who were they prostrating too? the logical conclusion is that the quran is using that figuratively.
please tell me if I missed you point again. I do that sometimes. -
Peace be upon you,
The WAR is mental, thus we are told about "salaat" while in a dangerous time....however, this is not about physical war, the is is not an ARMY manual. If so, why are we not told about how to sleep while at war, or how to eat while at war, etc.
Its simply saying that people , when shown the GODLY lifestyle will ridicule you and even attack you becaus they feel so ashamed of themselves, they feel so uncomfrotable at seeing the image of what they are suppossed to look like.
This is not about PHYSICAL WAR. Most of mankind will never be part of physical war, why do we need instructions for that? But we all will be in a place that if we sit down to meditate we can get things thrown at us while our eyes our closed, etc.
Peace IdolFree
I disagree with your comments about salat being non-physical. The verses that talk about salat during war actually mention one group of people putting down their arms. I feel this must be physical. Also the washing beforehand and the leaving of work to attend the 'jummah', speaking in a middle tone etc. These all point to salat being a physical event, not just something that occurs in our heads.
Roshan
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Salam,
I was dishearten when, after reading other articles on salat / prayer, i thought to myself, "why it is so complicated? Is the quran only for those who know arabic? Ain't the commands are made easy to understand to ALL mankind??"
Is there a command in the quran to prostrate and bow physically? Written as simple as it is to understand, without the need to do much inferring / interpretation?
It is clear that bowing and prostate can have both a physical and non-physical meaning. And, is there a command to bow and protrate (physically)? Yes. 2277 O ye who believe! bow down, prostrate yourselves, and adore your Lord; and do good; that ye may prosper.
Now, you can say bow down and prostrate here represents obedience and humility. well, i agree. Bear in mind, the act of believing, adore your Lord, do good -- in itself are actions of obedience and humility. So are bowing and prostrate.
Can't we take the word bowing and protrate -- literally-- as physical acts of worshipping God?
A meaning doesn't necessarily disprove the other when both can co-exist.
For example, the word "moon" can literally meaning moon, AND can represents ____, ,, all depending to the poet. Hmmmmmmmm, speaking of poet, which reminds me, someone did accuse the prophet/messenger a poet. Which verse is that, again?Remember, the quran is made easy to understand 5417, and clear for guidance and judgement 2185.
Should we assume the prophet/ messenger (or the quran) a poet?If truth is what you seek, you have nothing to lose.
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We don't need to SHOW God our obedience. God can see through us. And God is everywhere, so which way to we prostrate?
And Aimi, is your name the same as Amy? how is it pronounced, exactly?
Heyyy, phoenix, Aimi is pronouce as "I" + "me" (My name is I, Me. ahaha), not Amy.
Oh yes, God can see through us. We don't need to SHOW God our obedience, but, we do need to OBEY God's commands.
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Salaam aimi
Is the quran only for those who know arabic?
Do you see the Arabs on this forum - at least- understand the Quran better than the non-Arabs?
Logic and reasoning are more important. A dictionary may solve the problem of lack of Arabic knowledge, but there is no cure for lack of reasoning.brother Tanweer
Its easy, I have done it many times ! Try it, its not that difficult
prostrate on my chin? You mean chin as "lower jaw"? No way!! My nose will not allow such an acrobatic move!! Plus, I will eat some earth. Unless my understanding of what a chin is, is wrong.
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Salaamun alaika Samia,
prostrate on my chin? You mean chin as "lower jaw"? No way!! My nose will not allow such an acrobatic move!! Plus, I will eat some earth. Unless my understanding of what a chin is, is wrong.
I have done it with ease without the nose or mouth getting in the way.
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Peace phoenix,
that's figurative language. Like when the quran says that certain people are blind. If they fell down prostrating, who were they prostrating too? the logical conclusion is that the quran is using that figuratively.
please tell me if I missed you point again. I do that sometimes.- How can one "figuratively" do ruku and sujood to the sun and the moon (4137, 2724) ? The sun cannot speak or give orders or commands so how can one obey the sun ?
How one can submit itself to the sun which is able neither to speak nor to give orders or commands ? The people in 2724 didn't live according to The God's system (Islam) but according to their own passions which are dictated neither by the sun nor by the moon. In my opinion they submitted their self to their own passions and moreover they "yasjudoona"/physically prostrated to the sun, it was one of their practices.
The question is in which manner they "yasjudoona"/prostrate to the sun ?
- How can the magicians "figuratively" THROW themselves in prostration ? (7120)
The same verb is used in the following verses 2643-46, to describe the whole actions to throw the ropes and staffs and to throw themselves prostrating
- Moses said to them "Throw what you are going to throw."
Qala lahum moosa ALQOO maantum MULQOONA
- So they THREW their ropes and staffs and they said ?By the might of Pharaoh, we will be the winners.?
FAALQAW hibalahum waAAisiyyahumwaqaloo biAAizzati firAAawna inna lanahnualghaliboona
- So Moses THREW his staff, then it was eating-up all that they showed!
FAALQA moosa AAasahufa-itha hiya talqafu ma ya/fikoona
- So the magicians THREW THEMSELVES sajideena (prostrating).
FAOLQIYA alssaharatu sajideena
Here, I literally translate the verbe OLQIYA = to throw their self, even if it is not correct in English.
How do they throw their self ? the response is "sajideena" (prostrating).
So it is obvious that they PHYSICALLY THREW themselves in prostration just like Moses PHYSICALLY THREW his staff and the magicians PHYSICALLY THREW their ropes and staffs.
- How can one "figuratively" fall down to/with one's chin prostrating or crying ? (17107, 109)
In the verses which I quoted, there is neither any reference to the face nor to the nose but only to the chins. The verb "kharra" is used to describe how they fall down to/with the chins.
I think the answer to this question is in the same verses 17107 and 109
How did they fall to/with the chins, the response is prostrating (17107)
How did they fall to/with the chins, the response is crying (17109)The chins and the tears in the verses 17107 and 109 are not an allegory or figurative. The chins and tears are physical things. Falling down to/with the chins prostrating in 17107 is a physical act just like falling down to/with chins crying in 17109 is a physical act.
In 583 God speaks about those whose eyes flood with tears if they hear what was sent down to the messenger. The eyes and tears are not an image or figurative, the eyes flooding with tears is a real scene.
- And if they hear what was sent down to the messenger you see their eyes flooding with tears, for what they have known as the truth, they say ?Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.?
Wa-itha samiAAoo ma onzila ilaalrrasooli tara aAAyunahum tafeedu mina alddamAAimimma AAarafoo mina alhaqqi yaqooloona rabbanaamanna faoktubna maAAa alshshahideena
In 17107 and 109, ?they fall down to/with their chins? is a physical manifestation just like the tears.
How do you imagine this scene ?
In my opinion these are two physical actions which follow one another; in first 19107 they fall down to/with their chins prostrating then in 19109 they fall down to/with their chins crying.
Peace
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Peace Wakas,
On the evidence provided for your point (3), one cannot draw the conclusions you drew.
In 4102 "when you have prostrated" marks the end of salaat for one group. In light of qur'aanic evidence and according to the context, what exactly does "when you have prostrated" mean in 4102 ? How exactly can a group of people who are standing to uphold salaat at time of war "prostrate" at the end of salaat ?
The context of 17108 is clearly salaat; also aqimi al-salaat involves oration of verses from al-qur'aan in a moderate tone and per 17108, the believers are supposed to fall down to/with their chins prostrating when they hear the verses of al-qur'aan recited to them, thus clearly making a physical falling down to/with the chins prostrating a part of aqimi al-salaat.
Tanveer
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peace Tanveer,
In 4102 "when you have prostrated" marks the end of salaat for one group. In light of qur'aanic evidence and according to the context, what exactly does "when you have prostrated" mean in 4102 ?
SJD means to acknowledge / give recognition. This can take many forms, as can be seen by looking at the root meanings. It could either by in the mind, by voice, or a physical act. In this group setting, the most likely is by voice or a physical act (not necessarily prostration). In fact, I am confident one could find examples in 'al quran' of ways to acknowledge / give recognition, that are not only prostration.
How exactly can a group of people who are standing to uphold salaat at time of war "prostrate" at the end of salaat ?
I thought you were arguing for a physical prostration? If so, why ask me how its possible? I would say it is possible, but to say thats the only interpretation is not solid based on the evidence provided.
The context of 17108 is clearly salaat...
You sure? Instead of making unevidenced statements please provide the actual evidence, especially so when you have been proved wrong before (and not so long ago), i.e. when you said 11114 is being addressed to mankind. "salat" is not mentioned until 17110, is this what you're referring to?
Are you suggesting whenever believers (btw, where are the "mumineen" mentioned?) hear 'al quran' being recited to them they should fall down to/with their chins prostrating generally, or just during the regular/timed slw? Please clarify.
Wakas
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Peace brother Wakas,
SJD means to acknowledge / give recognition. This can take many forms, as can be seen by looking at the root meanings. It could either by in the mind, by voice, or a physical act. In this group setting, the most likely is by voice or a physical act (not necessarily prostration). In fact, I am confident one could find examples in 'al quran' of ways to acknowledge / give recognition, that are not only prostration.
Please give example from "al-qur'aan" of a verbal or physical act which signifies "sujood" other than physical prostration. To quote yourself, instead of making unevidenced statements please provide the actual evidence.
I thought you were arguing for a physical prostration? If so, why ask me how its possible? I would say it is possible, but to say thats the only interpretation is not solid based on the evidence provided.
At least you are admitting it is possible. If that is not the only interpretation in the context of 4102 then please give example from "al-qur'aan" of a VERBAL OR A PHYSICAL ACT which signifies "sujood" other than physical prostration.
You sure? Instead of making unevidenced statements please provide the actual evidence, especially so when you have been proved wrong before (and not so long ago), i.e. when you said 11114 is being addressed to mankind. "salat" is not mentioned until 17110, is this what you're referring to?
Firstly, here is how I am connecting 17107 to salat
a. The knowledgable ones (the ones with the knowledge/ilm of Allah's true revelations) are supposed to fall to their chins in prostration when they hear the verses of al-qur'aan recited to them per 17107
b. Upholding salat involves oration/recitation of verses from al-qur'aan
Thus, logically, when the knowledgable ones hear the verses of al-qur'aan recited to them DURING UPHOLDING SALAT (for example in a group setting of 4102, or when one recites to oneself in a moderate tone), they are supposed to fall to/with their chins in prostration, thus making that physical prostration a part of salat.
Secondly, THE MESSAGE of al-qur'aan is for entire mankind and when someone is being asked to do something in al-qur'aan in general, it is applicable to the entire mankind. If the message is only for that someone specifically, al-qur'aan specifically mentions that it is ONLY for that someone. Thus in 11114, the commandment of salat even though it is addressed to a group of people or a person, it is applicable to the entire mankind, but only the "muslimeen"/submitters among the entire mankind will submit to that commandment.
Are you suggesting whenever believers (btw, where are the "mumineen" mentioned?) hear 'al quran' being recited to them they should fall down to/with their chins prostrating generally, or just during the regular/timed slw? Please clarify.
I did not mean to imply that the advice in 17107 was ONLY for the believers. In my understanding 17107 is mentioning a trait of "those who have been given the knowledge of Allah's true revelations before al-qur'aan was revealed", but as the message of al-qur'aan is for the entire mankind, it is referencing ANYONE with knowledge of Allah's true revelations which includes mumineen as well.
A logical question that follows is
Can one draw an inference from this that ONLY those people who have the KNOWLEDGE/"'ILM" of Allah's true revelations are supposed to fall to their chins in a physical prostration when al-quraan is recited ?
Tanveer
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salam everyone,
According my analysation of word salat it is used as usalloona and other place as that Allah and his angels send salat on believers. I disagree that sending salat means blessings in this case. I also disagree that salat means praying. According to the information on this website it is also mentioned that salat is an oath of alliance derived from logical translation of the word "salat'' of an ayat in Quran.
According to my understanding (May God forgive me if I am wrong) when Allah and his angels send salat on believers they hold an oath of alliance to the believers. Allah allies with the believers in the way He pleases (no one should attempt to guess how He pleases just read quran to learn about nature of God) and his angels also ally with the believers by constantly asking Allah for the forgiveness of believers and in every way as allah want them to.
In my view sajdah just means complete obedience with a strong will. It does not mean physical sajdah as it is a physical expression of human obedience in a very primitive way. when allah asked His angels to do sajdah before Adam he meant to show complete obedience to Adam in accordance with what Allah pleases. In surah rehman it is said that stars and trees are in sajda to God which means they are fully obedient to the commandments of Allah. At other place where it is said that they will to sajdah with their chins, it is used in a figurative sense showing the extent of their obedience to the commandments of Allah. Rukuh means humility showing our humbleness to God never becoming a single bit proud even if one of us is a president of his country or a joint chiefs of army staff. Only Allah desrves to be the proud one.
Salat is to be performed three times ( Fajr, Maghrib, isha) by first doing ablution/wudu and then holding an oath of alliance to Allah only by using the words of the Quran in any human language. The content of salat should be to uphold the commandments of Allah in the Quran. (e.g surah fatiha we make an oath of allianece to Allah that we only worship Him, Ask Him to Guide us to the right path, be modest in public be humble and are fully obedient to his commandments in quran). This can be performed individually or collectively in any comfortable position most appropriate is standing and saying it neither secretely nor loudly but in a moderate tone.
God tells us in Quran that it is not piety to turn our faces either to east or west so the concept of qibla towards sacred mosque is directing our focus towards the devine code of guidance (all that the holy quran tells us). In the begining of surah isra or bani israel mosque of al aqsa is mentioned. AL aqsa in arabic means farthest so it cannot be supposed that it is a mosque in jerusalem. It is the direction of muhammad's heart towards the highest understanding of divine code of obedience.Sorry I could not support my points with pasting directly from quran due to lack of time.
I ask Allah to forgive me if I have unknowingly misundertood the concept of salat.
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peace brother Tanveer,
Please give example from "al-qur'aan" of a verbal or physical act which signifies "sujood" other than physical prostration.
Please see the following evidence
258, 4154 - in these signs they are asked to enter the gate in SJD. Clearly they cannot enter the gate prostrating, and since entering a gate is a physical act, it is possible SJD can be demonstrated in a physical act but not in a prostration manner.
12100 - are you suggesting they were raised upon the throne and then fell down prostrate physically whilst on the throne? If not, what form did the SJD take?
711, 1529 etc - are you implying angels, iblees physically prostrate? How does a being made from "smokeless fire" physically prostrate? Do they have a chin too? Is God asking for a different prostration for mankind and other beings?
Furthermore, in 'al quran' there are many examples of SJD being done without involving physical prostration, e.g. 1315, 556, thus it proves that SJD is not exclusive to a certain form, e.g. physical prostration. This is further proven by the classical arabic meanings themselves, e.g. to salute, to stand up.
7120-121 - Did they say 7121 this with their chins on the ground?
The last point leads me to some further considerations for your theory (and every person who upholds a physical prostration in "salat"
When they take their weapons/goods in 4102, you say they physically prostrate at the end, is this with or without holding their weapons/goods? If you say without, is this what the sign implies?
When one is undertaking the regular/timed slw, and since it involves oration/reading 'al quran', how does one do this while prostrating on their chin? Does that include the leader/orator?
How did you make the distinction that this prostration to the chin is only done during the regular/timed slw, and never at other times when 'al quran' is recited to them? Was it an assumption? If so, how do you figure 3215? Is slw mentioned anywhere in this entire chapter? Yes or no?
Clearly, this sign can be taken idiomatically. If you wish to take it physically, are you aware that "to lower the head" is one of SJD's classical arabic meanings? If so, what happens to the chin when one lowers their head?
And lastly, a clarification of what I said
In fact, I am confident one could find examples in 'al quran' of ways to acknowledge / give recognition, that are not only prostration.
To quote yourself, instead of making unevidenced statements please provide the actual evidence.
If you look closely at what I said, it was a tentative statement. I choose my words carefully, and I hope you will also in the future and refrain from using words such as "kills the argument", "solid", "100%" etc. This kind of language is not helpful.
Wakas
Peace brother Wakas,
Please give example from "al-qur'aan" of a verbal or physical act which signifies "sujood" other than physical prostration. To quote yourself, instead of making unevidenced statements please provide the actual evidence.
At least you are admitting it is possible. If that is not the only interpretation in the context of 4102 then please give example from "al-qur'aan" of a VERBAL OR A PHYSICAL ACT which signifies "sujood" other than physical prostration.
Firstly, here is how I am connecting 17107 to salat
a. The knowledgable ones (the ones with the knowledge/ilm of Allah's true revelations) are supposed to fall to their chins in prostration when they hear the verses of al-qur'aan recited to them per 17107
b. Upholding salat involves oration/recitation of verses from al-qur'aan
Thus, logically, when the knowledgable ones hear the verses of al-qur'aan recited to them DURING UPHOLDING SALAT (for example in a group setting of 4102, or when one recites to oneself in a moderate tone), they are supposed to fall to/with their chins in prostration, thus making that physical prostration a part of salat.
Secondly, THE MESSAGE of al-qur'aan is for entire mankind and when someone is being asked to do something in al-qur'aan in general, it is applicable to the entire mankind. If the message is only for that someone specifically, al-qur'aan specifically mentions that it is ONLY for that someone. Thus in 11114, the commandment of salat even though it is addressed to a group of people or a person, it is applicable to the entire mankind, but only the "muslimeen"/submitters among the entire mankind will submit to that commandment.
I did not mean to imply that the advice in 17107 was ONLY for the believers. In my understanding 17107 is mentioning a trait of "those who have been given the knowledge of Allah's true revelations before al-qur'aan was revealed", but as the message of al-qur'aan is for the entire mankind, it is referencing ANYONE with knowledge of Allah's true revelations which includes mumineen as well.
A logical question that follows is
Can one draw an inference from this that ONLY those people who have the KNOWLEDGE/"'ILM" of Allah's true revelations are supposed to fall to their chins in a physical prostration when al-quraan is recited ?
Tanveer
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Peace brother Wakas,
I apologize for phrasing my query in a wrong way leading you to respond to something I never intended to ask. I will try to be more careful next time. That is why I like discussing with you because your logic is almost impeccable and I have learnt a lot by discussing with you. The purpose of my discussions is not to impose my personal understanding as the final word, but to seek the truth according to al-qur'aan, so I can follow the commandments of The God as He wills. I hope and pray that The God forgives our mistakes during our efforts to seek the truth and follow the straight path.
What I wish to ask you is the following
Please give example from "al-qur'aan" of a verbal or physical act which signifies "sujood" other than physical prostration to the chin DURING AQIMI AL-SALAT.
I forgot to add the underlined phrase above to my query thinking that it was implied automatically because of the context of our discussion but that was my mistake.
Having said that, in my understanding, "falling down to/with the chins in prostration" can be done physically in 3 ways as elaborated at the end of this post.
Please see the following evidence
258, 4154 - in these signs they are asked to enter the gate in SJD. Clearly they cannot enter the gate prostrating, and since entering a gate is a physical act, it is possible SJD can be demonstrated in a physical act but not in a prostration manner.
12100 - are you suggesting they were raised upon the throne and then fell down prostrate physically whilst on the throne? If not, what form did the SJD take?
711, 1529 etc - are you implying angels, iblees physically prostrate? How does a being made from "smokeless fire" physically prostrate? Do they have a chin too? Is God asking for a different prostration for mankind and other beings?
Furthermore, in 'al quran' there are many examples of SJD being done without involving physical prostration, e.g. 1315, 556, thus it proves that SJD is not exclusive to a certain form, e.g. physical prostration. This is further proven by the classical arabic meanings themselves, e.g. to salute, to stand up.
Thank you for the signs. Yes you are right, I should word my replies and queries more carefully. In my haste, I sometimes make logical errors and I am thankful to you for catching those errors and helping me learn from them.
I agree that according to al-qur'aan "sujood" can be mental or other than physical prostration in the context of many signs but it can also be physical prostration in the context of some signs e.g. 4137, 2724, 17107, 7120, so physical prostration is a possibility.
In my discussion with you I was referring to "sujood" during "aqimi al-salat". Even you agree that in the context of 4102, in view of a group setting, "sujood" here could be a verbal or physical act and that physical prostration is a possibility.
In my understanding, "sujood" during "aqimi al-salaat" signifies a physical prostration to/with the chin and my evidence is 17107 as I elaborated in my last post. Do you have any qur'aanic evidence to prove otherwise, i.e.
Can you provide an example from "al-qur'aan" of a verbal or physical act which signifies "sujood" other than physical prostration to/with the chin during "aqimi al-salat" ?
7120-121 - Did they say 7121 this with their chins on the ground?
It seems like that but I cannot be sure. Their chins could have been touching the ground, near the ground, or touching their chest (please see end of this post for elaboration).
When they take their weapons/goods in 4102, you say they physically prostrate at the end, is this with or without holding their weapons/goods? If you say without, is this what the sign implies?
The weapons/swords could be in an upholster or belt during the physical prostration to the chin. It doesn't say they are holding the weapons in their hands during salat ! They could bring weapons with them and thus be carrying them even when the weapons are upon their person in a belt or an upholster.
When one is undertaking the regular/timed slw, and since it involves oration/reading 'al quran', how does one do this while prostrating on their chin? Does that include the leader/orator?
In my understanding, the oration/reading of al-qur'aan in salat can be done during the physical prostration to the chin, although usually it is done while standing in salat. It is possible to utter a brief sign from al-qur'aan or phrases of praise and glorification of Allah during the physical prostration to the chin.
In my understanding, in case of a group salat, the leader of the salat should be doing the oration/recitation of al-qur'aan in a moderate tone with the remainder of the group listening to it. The evidence for that would be the phrase "when you uphold the salat for them" in 4102. The leader and the group should all physically prostrate to the chin at the end of the salat because they all heard al-qur'aan being recited per 17107.
How did you make the distinction that this prostration to the chin is only done during the regular/timed slw, and never at other times when 'al quran' is recited to them? Was it an assumption? If so, how do you figure 3215? Is slw mentioned anywhere in this entire chapter? Yes or no?
I never said in my post that this prostration to the chin is only done during the timed salat, and never at other times when al-qur'aan is recited to them. At times other than salat, when the knowledgable ones hear al-qur'aan being recited, they are supposed to do the physical prostration to/with their chins in any of the 3 ways mentioned at the end of this post.
Clearly, this sign can be taken idiomatically. If you wish to take it physically, are you aware that "to lower the head" is one of SJD's classical arabic meanings? If so, what happens to the chin when one lowers their head?
Please provide evidence from al-qur'aan that "falling down to the chin in prostration" can be taken idiomatically. I agree that "falling dow in prostration" can be taken idiomatically in al-qur'aan, but I think that "falling down to the chin in prostration" is physical in al-qur'aan. If "lowering the head" is one of SJD's classical arabic meanings then it makes a physical prostration to the chin a possibility as that involves lowering the head too.
Now whether "falling down to/with the chin in prostration" means the chins touching the ground or near the ground I am not sure. Thus three physical interpretations of "falling down to/with the chin in prostration" could be
- Lowering your head in the kneeling position, while flexing the lumbar spine anteriorly, and putting the hands on the ground in such a way that the chin touches the ground with the neck extended.
- Lowering your head in a kneeling position, while flexing the lumbar spine anteriorly, and putting the hands either on the ground or the anterior thighs in such a way that the chin is near the ground.
- Lowering the head on the axis of the neck (anatomically called anterior flexion of neck) in such a way that the chin touches the upper chest.
What is your opinion on this last point ?
Peace
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Peace all...
Abrar, I'm with you. To represent my best understanding of "salat" as both a word and a concept, I have chosen the English word 'communion'. Communion is defined as "a joining together of minds or spirits". That would also lead us to think of the concept of a 'commune'. A quick browse on "Wiktionary" for "commune" brings up a lot of related thoughts. We can see that the verb means to 'to be together with; to contemplate or absorb"; while the noun is defined as "an intentional community in which resources are shared". A few of the possible types of "communes"
- religious;
- psychological (based on mystical or gestalt principles);
- rehabilitational;
- cooperative;
- alternative family;
- countercultural ('hippies'
- political; and lastly, but certainly not least...
- spiritual.
Think about it....Thus, I put forth that this definition works in all references to 'salat' as per http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/quran_on_salat.htm
What say ye?
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Peace be upon you all,
I have been delayed in doing my salaat article, I will try to complete it this weekend. I hoe we can all have a good discussion about it.
