My last post on FM
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Peace Andy and all
The word "kafar" means to conceal, cover. In the Qur'aan mainly those who cover the truth they know.
The sura you mentioned does not command you to call a kafer kafer. The main point of the surat is not to do as they do, even if they believe in God but want to conceal the truth about anything.For example if your boss asks you to cheat on the expenses or the input of a trade, this makes him a kafer (by concealing the truth of the trade even if he is not an atheist). You have to refuse and tell him that he has his way and you have yours, even if this ends by firing you. You do not have to call him "you cheater!" or "you kafer".
Suppose your boss is an atheist, but an honest man. Are you going to call him "kafer" every now and then, even if he is not hiding his disbelieve in God, but he is fair to you?
It is the actions you should take - as per this verse - not the addressing.
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Peace andy,
Careful in your analysis. 517 mentions "qaloo" = "said", this is past tense and not present tense nor future tense. Why? Because the kafir conceals or hides the truth, as Samia eloquently expressed. So 517 is not addressing christians, but those who originally perpetrated the lies when they knew full well that Isa was just a man. A person born into christianity today is brainwashed into the system. He/she didn't have a chance to make that conscious decision to reject the truth.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Samia,
Suppose your boss is an atheist, but an honest man. Are you going to call him "kafer" every now and then, even if he is not hiding his disbelieve in God, but he is fair to you?
I am really really sad you ask me such question sis (in case you really mean it). That is really really far away from what in my mind. Oh Allah, please make my post understandable by them (
What important is NOT that you GREET them kafir every morning, every time you meet them, etc. What important is you make them know that they are kafir. It could be through personal discussion, mass media, discussion forum, mailing list, etc. That is how I understand the verse and this is neither absurd nor illogical at all as some members here claim.
It is the actions you should take - as per this verse - not the addressing.
I agree with this as far as I understand your post.
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Peace Tay,
Peace andy,
Careful in your analysis. 517 mentions "qaloo" = "said", this is past tense and not present tense nor future tense. Why? Because the kafir conceals or hides the truth, as Samia eloquently expressed.
I am not arabic expert but I am quite sure the verses are valid for christians in the past, present and the future.
So 517 is not addressing christians, but those who originally perpetrated the lies when they knew full well that Isa was just a man. A person born into christianity today is brainwashed into the system. He/she didn't have a chance to make that conscious decision to reject the truth.
I agree that born christians might be unaware of the truth. That is why by default I will consider them as believers just like sunnis and shias. The only thing I disagree with you is that you exclude the present and future christians. That is the same as saying it is OK for sunnis and shias to keep stoning adulterers because they are not the ones who perpetrated the lies.
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Hi there,
Here is my analysis
Chapter 109 Are we justified in name calling?
For those who have read even just a part the Quran, not only with their eyes but also with what lies behind, theyll know how much the Quran values politeness. It rightfully calls itself the reminder when it repeatedly speaks to us of laws of etiquette that ought to be common sense. Here is a small portion of those reminding verses
"Walk humbly and lower your voice, the ugliest voice is the donkey's voice." (3119)
"O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation "Thou art not a believer!"..." (494)
"Not equal is the good response and the bad response. You shall resort to the nicest possible response. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend." (4134)
Further verses on etiquette can be found here
http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/etiquette.htmThe first quoted verse is forthright and clear, yelling and shouting is likened to the voice of the donkey. Recall that the donkey is a symbol of stupidity as well.
The last two verses are more interesting. In them we find clear guidance on how to use chapter 109. In clear words we are forbidden from calling anyone who has offered us a salutation or Peace which is another possible meaning of word Salam which was used. Its therefore irrefutable that followers of the Quran are prohibited from discriminating or harassing others by their faith as longs as these others offer peace, meaning religious tolerance and living in harmony.
Believers where persecuted by the rejecters. They (the believers) were given permission and were ordered to fight these persecutors and oppressors. However, it was made clear that anyone that did not throw them out of their homes was not an enemy, and bonds of friendship were permitted. The Quran even suggested that we may forgive and forget those who threw the believers out, after persecution was no more.
This is made even clear in the last verse quoted. The Quran clearly says that we are to speak as nicely as possible, making it possible that our enemies might become or friends. Who are the enemies of their time? It is the rejecters because they persecuted and conspired in secret against the believers. Even to these people we are to talk nicely.
And, ponder a bit on this quote from Farid Esack in which he gives a wonderful example from the Quran
Do feel free to communicate with me and I will try to respond; Do remember when you write to me that Allah instructed Moses to speak gently to Pharaoh and that a) however noble you or intentions may be, you are not better than Moses and b) whatever you make of me and my views, I am not worse than Pharaoh!
Now, as we have established the fundamental value that politeness is, we should try to interpret chapter 109.
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1091 Say "O rejecters,"
1092 "I do not serve what you serve,"
1093 "Nor do you serve what I serve,"
1094 "Nor will I serve what you serve,"
1095 "Nor will you serve what I serve,"
1096 "To you is your system, and to me is mine."Many have come to justify their calling others as rejecters in the light of the word Say in the first verse of chapter 109. They believe that the Quran orders them to call others rejecters. Traditionally a rejecter is anyone who denounces the official tenets of Islam. Whos a Kafir, and whos not is today defined by the majority of Muslims ruled by the minority of Scholars. Needless to say this system doesnt stand to scrutiny, as truth is immune to the whims of majority.
Similarly the claim of the word say justifying name calling doesnt stand up to scrutiny. Recall that the Quran prohibits saying "Thou art not a believer!" to anyone who wants to be with peace with us.
But, the fact remains that the Quran does use the word Say. We are ordered to say and allowed to use the word Kafir, weve just misunderstood to whom and when.
Both questions can be answered by looking again at 494.
"O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation "Thou art not a believer!"..." (494)
Only persons who do not offer to live in peace, meaning religious tolerance and freedom are to be called Kafirs. That answers to whom.
And only are we to call them that in an effort to make peace. You should understand this by analyzing chapter 109. Ask yourself, what is the point of this chapter? What is the prophet trying to do with this chapter? He is trying to make peace with the Kafirs. He is trying to get them to agree that faith is personal.
To use this chapter to make name calling lawful is not only contradictory to many other verses in the Quran, it is also an abuse the chapter itself. Remember people, we are supposed to be the oppressors of anger.
Ive used a few verses to simply suggest that my views are based on the Quran. Ive proved nothing, a one day study should be enough for a person to be able to verify or refute that what Ive suggested is compatible with the rest of the Quran.
Nadeem
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Peace andy,
I'm glad we agree more than we disagree...
The only thing I disagree with you is that you exclude the present and future christians. That is the same as saying it is OK for sunnis and shias to keep stoning adulterers because they are not the ones who perpetrated the lies.
It is not the same as you've described. No one is saying the actions are OK. What I'm saying is if a person never received the guidance, then by definition he/she cannot be a rejector of the guidance - this goes for any religion or sect or cult or individual. This does not make their behavior acceptable. Wrong is wrong, and right is right.
If we accept 517 at face value, then all trinitarian christians are in the same category kafirun.
This does not make any sense. But it must be either a group of them, or all of them. I argue that if it's a group of them, then it must be those who've understood that God is One, yet persist in perpetrating that God is Three.Same for your sunni and shia example. If they know what they're doing is wrong, and not sanctioned by God, then they are rejectors of God's guidance. If they do not know, then they are just ignorant. Either way, stoning is still terribly wrong.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
It is not the same as you've described. No one is saying the actions are OK. What I'm saying is if a person never received the guidance, then by definition he/she cannot be a rejector of the guidance - this goes for any religion or sect or cult or individual. This does not make their behavior acceptable. Wrong is wrong, and right is right.
If we accept 517 at face value, then all trinitarian christians are in the same category kafirun.
This does not make any sense. But it must be either a group of them, or all of them. I argue that if it's a group of them, then it must be those who've understood that God is One, yet persist in perpetrating that God is Three.Same for your sunni and shia example. If they know what they're doing is wrong, and not sanctioned by God, then they are rejectors of God's guidance. If they do not know, then they are just ignorant. Either way, stoning is still terribly wrong.
Agree
What confuses me is I thought I have explained it in my post before so why you seem to have different view by writing such a long post? This is what I wrote before here
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7019.msg106541#msg106541
As we all can read, verse 517 gives a criteria of kafir, which is believing that Jesus is God. Even in such a case, I won't call my christian friend kafir before proper explanation, talks, discussion, and da'wa have been done. Just because christians worship Jesus doesn't necessarily mean they are kafirun because it could be that they are not aware of the truth.
I am really confused ...
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Peace andy,
My apologies for the confusion. I went long on the explanation because I didn't think my point was being made well enough, and it's clear that it still isn't working. I'll give it one last shot...
Christians, the vast majority of them, believe that God is three. This is because of the organized corruption and book-burning that took place 1681 years ago - the Council of Nicaea followed by the Athanasian Creed. Now, a millenium and a half of pounding into people's minds that their religion should not make any sense and that one should accept what one does not understand on sheer blind faith has resulted in what we call the modern christian.
This modern christian has been bred to not use his abillity to deduce and think reasonably when it comes to his religion. So, no amount of discussing and/or explaining can lift this veil, for they are already pre-programmed to view you as the enemy, ie, the devil using his worldly dominance to influence you into influencing christians.
Surely, if we know this, then God knows this. And God is Most Merciful. People trust those whom they love to bring them the truth. So, if someone is bringing falsehood but believes it is truth, then the falsehood lives on in the lives of otherwise good people. It is not the fault of the people who've been influenced, but the fault of those who originally perpetrated the influence. They are the kafirun. They knew the truth of Isa's message yet chose to distort it and perpetrate a falsehood to benefit themselves.
The same applies to the sunni's and shia's.
I hope I've made myself clear.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all
I think brother Andy's post is not to be seen in a malicious manner. He simply said that calling someone a kafir is not absurd and illogical, as someone earlier stated. And he emphasized that it is mentioned in the Qur'an to say this, to people who we truly know are. Although it's not good to randomly label people kafirs, we need to stop thinking of it as an extremely insulting word. However, I disagree to the extent that AB went. But I agree with what Andy is saying.
Peace all.
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Peace OpenMind, all,
Mr. Humble's "illogical and absurd" comment was in the context of this forum, regarding former member Ahmed calling magi a kafir. This is, by definition, absurd and illogical because magi does not fit the description given in the qur'an. Further, anyone calling anyone else a kafir on a forum is equally absurd and illogical unless that person outwardly expresses kafirun behavior/belief as described in the qur'an.
I don't think brother andy's posts were malicious in the least. In fact, I find his posts quite insightful and intelligent. I just think this entire thread has been an exercise in misunderstanding. May we all grow from it.
Peace,
Tay