The Quran Does Not Say How Many Rak'ahs There Are For Each Salah
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Peace all,
According to the Qur'aan there are 2 units per salat
- And if you are with them and you uphold the salat for them, then 1. let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; 2. and let a group who has not yet performed salat come and perform salat with you?
As can be clearly seen in the above verse is that the Prophet performed 2 units of salat. The men, because of the war only performed one unit as given in verse 4101.
4 101. And if you are on the offensive in the land, then there is no harm that you shorten from the salat, if you fear that the rejecters will try you. The rejecters are to you a clear enemy.
So in the normal situation it is always 2 units. Whether it be in congregation or individual salat, and this is the same for all times. There is no prostration-kneeling-prostration mentioned in these verses. Only one prostration per unit, nothing more. You prostrate and stand up immediately. Of course there is no harm at all if a person desires to perform more units then 2 units in individual salat, as the salat is for the remembrance of The God.
- ?I am God, there is no god but Me, so serve Me and perform the salat for My remembrance.?
Let us dissect 4102 in detail
Taking their arms is emphasized here to confirm that the condition for shortening a salat IS fear of the unbelievers attack.
First of all let?s allow ourselves a basic conclusion. Anyone with an average level of reasoning would accept that there is a DETAILING in this verse no matter how different people understand it. Then, we ask ourselves ?Why do some people claim that this matter (and every other one) is NOT DETAILED in the Quran? Personally I can see only one reason for that TO JUSTIFY SOME OTHER DETAILING FROM OTHER BOOKS BESIDE GOD?S.
Now, let?s go back to God?s plain verse 4102. Let?s go step by step, patiently.
- When you are with them, and stand to lead THEM in salat <fa aqamta lahumus salata>.
Here God clearly states that the messenger is establishing the complete salat <FAQMTA LHUMUS SALATA> and THEM here stands for both parties that are mentioned later in the same verse. So, the messenger, in this verse is to establish a complete salat with both parties (a unit with each of them)
- Let one party of them stand up (in salat) with you, taking their arms with them. When they have prostrated <iza sajadoo>, let them take their position in the rear.
We can see that God uses the verb sajad (to prostrate) for the first party and not sala (to pray)! Why? The answer is in the verb used for the other group!
- ?And let the other party come up which HATH NOT YET PERFORMED SALAT <lam yusaloo> and let them perform salat with thee <fal yusaloo ma'k>.
Here comes the clarification for the use of sajadoo (have prostrated) for the first group and lam yusaloo (have not performed salat) for the other group.
When God says that the other group HAVE NOT PERFORMED SALAT YET <lam yusaloo> that, with no doubt, means THE FIRST GROUP HAD PERFORMED SALAT before them. But to make it clear for us, IN HIS BOOK, how many units are there, He uses sajadoo for the first group and lam yusaloo for the other group. In other words, the shortening of a salat in the case of fear is ONE UNIT. A complete salat has TWO UNITS and that is why the verb <AQAMTA> (a verb used throughout the Quran for the complete prayer) is in the singular and refers only to the messenger. So, the messenger, leading both groups (THEM, each group with one sujud) in the shortened salat, is himself doing a complete salat of two units (in the verse).
Some would ask (some really do) ?Why do we take <iza sajadoo> to mean one sujud or prostration?
There is one thing that is really interesting. TRADITIONALLY, the phrase iza sajadoo is translated as WHEN THEY FINISH PROSTRATIONS. So, we have prostration is in the plural which is the intention of this translation. But God, in this verse, does not use a noun (prostration), not in the singular nor in the plural. What God uses here is a VERB in the present perfect <fa iza sajadoo> WHEN THEY HAVE PROSTRATED.
Some people go further and ask ?How many times to prostrate?? The verb clearly indicates ONCE. It says WHEN THEY HAVE PROSTRATED, LET THEM TAKE THE REAR.
Check these Quranic verses where we have a similar situation. In 4103 God says ?When ye have performed your salat..? <fi iza qadaytumus salata> we have the same situation, a verb in the present perfect. What do you think, how many times have we performed the salat?
?So, when ye have accomplished your rites <fa iza qadautum manasikakum>, celebrate the praises of God?? 2200. How many times to accomplish the rites? The question would be here.
There are a lot of examples where it is quite clear how many times the action, that the verb refers to, happens.
Now let us see the next verse, which provide a good confirmation for few things we have already mentioned.
?When ye have performed the salat, remember God, standing, sitting, or lying down on your sides; BUT WHEN YE ARE FREE FROM DANGER, uphold the complete salat <FA AQIMUS SALATA>?.
In other words when there is no danger any longer, then establish or perform your salat completely and do not shorten it for there is no reason for that.
Two confirmations we can see here are.
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The condition for shortening a salat is FEAR FROM THE UNBELIEVERS?ATTACK.
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The verb <AQIMS SALATA> is used to mean a complete salat.
Check the using of <AQAMTA LAHUM> and <IZA SAJADOO> and <LAM YUSALOO> in 4;102 and <FA AQIMUS SALATA> in 4103, and it will, GW, be clear how many units are there.
Peace
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Salaam All
Salaam UnknownThe Quran does not say how many rak'ahs we should pray for each prayer. So obviously we need to know this information by referring to outside the Quran.
So, maybe you can tell us how the "prayer" is detailed from sources outside the Quran?
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Unknown, if God didn't bother to put that info in the Qur'an, maybe it's because He doesn't consider it to be of utmost importance. That should be clear enough.
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Peace
unknown, please tell me how excactly you get the form of prayers from hadith that youre practicing without picking and choosing yourself.
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fully detailed in terms of our requirement from the Lord. for our guidance...
obviously, but unknown is arguing that God is bluffing when that is made known to us that its fully detailed.
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Peace be upon you Unknown,
Since you will be debating, I hope you will be prepared to show where the "2,4,4,3,4" Rakaat method is listed ANYWHERE in Quran or Hadith...yes even Hadith...I have yet in about 8 or 9 years seen anyone bring this information. I will await your response.
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Peace be upon you,
This thread is also under salaat section, and as stated there please show ANYWHERE in Quran or Hadith where the 2,4,4,3,4 schedule is shown. I have not seen this question addressed in 8 or 9 years of asking it.
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No Christian priests dont have us believe it. Its known when someone reads the letters of Paul or studies history, different groups arose in the early Church.
But the same cannot be said regarding the Muslims and their method of prayer.
The issue of the matter is that I am planning in the near future inshallah to go out public and start debating "Quran Onlys" such as yourselves. But before I do, i want to make sure about all your possible answers to my arguments. If these are the kind of quality arguments that i am to expect then i definately have nothing to worry about inshallah.
This is not intended to offend anyone.
Is there anyone out there with better answers?
It doesn't matter what is known about history. I KNOW that Muhammad didn't perform any supernatural miracles. But you believe he did. We're talking about what people believe. And what people believe is not always right.
You believe that everyone since the writing down of the quran is performing these rituals, but that doesn't it true.
I wouldn't classify myself as a quran only. I wouldn't classify myself as anything.But you have to be openminded when debating. I get a feeling that you aren't. If you know that you already know the truth, you can't learn. You don't progress.
Forget about hadith or quran only for a moment. Just take the quran as a simple book. A book. Now, how do you read and understand this book? do you look for other unrelated historical documents explaining this book, or do you trust yourself and verifiable information (rather than opinions) to understand it?
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Moderator Note This thread was originally two separate threads in two different sections. The threads have been merged into this one thread and placed in "Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification)". The posts are ordered chronologically, so the there should be minimal 'chaos' but some is to be expected.
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Peace Unknown,
No Christian priests dont have us believe it. Its known when someone reads the letters of Paul or studies history, different groups arose in the early Church.
But the same cannot be said regarding the Muslims and their method of prayer.
Take a look at a shahih hadith below in Shahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 346
Narrated 'Aisha
the mother of believers Allah enjoined the prayer when He enjoined it, it was two Rakat only (in every prayer) both when in residence or on journey. Then the prayers offered on journey remained the same, but (the Rakat of) the prayers for non-travellers were increased.
According to the hadith, for non travellers the number of rakaat must be more than two rakaat. How many rakaat do you pray Subuh prayer? If it is two, then your prayer contradicts shahih Bukhari's hadith and hence according to sunni religion your prayer is VOID since it contradicts the sunna of the prophet ;D
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Excellent question Why not bring forward the hadiths which tell us all the rakats we need to do and the other details?
Just because one does not accept hadith as a source of guidance does not mean s/he does not pray in the manner that you pray (bowing, prostration and standing), in fact these are the salat position verified by the Qur'an.
It so happens most Muslims (even those who do their salah 5 times and day) have not read the Qur'an at all (except reciting it in Arabic ritually without understanding).
The authentic hadiths will not show you how to do salah completely the way you do it today (an assuption which you and many make when they ask "how do we pray?". There are some hadith that comment on certain aspects of salah, however, not all the details of salah exist even within the entire hadith compilation. According to the Qur'an, Prophet Ibraham offered salah at the Kabaa. Salah was not something new with the Prophet Muhammad and it would have been a familiar concept to the Arabs who heard the Qur'an back then, which was telling them to perform salah to Allah alone. For example, if I tell you to ride a bicycle, I assume you already know how to ride one.
Historically, even one of the earliest surahs talk about salah in the Qur'an, which suggests that salah was a familiar ritual. Remember, those around the Kaa'baa were Arabs who were trying to follow Prophet Ibraham who had lived at the same place, some of them were even descendants of him.
Then how is salah learnt? If you are like most, you learnt salah through your parents or care takers as you grew up. That is how it is really passed down - through the generations, as a ritual practice. You did not look into hadith books to learn this skill. Salat is better passed down through practice than through hadiths.
People have been performing salah at the sight of Ka'baa from the days of Prophet Ibrahim, and Prophet Muhammad, and continue to do so today in millions. The same thing can be said about hajj too.
The Qur'an however, confirms the compulsory positions of salah that must be there. Which is, standing, bowing (rukuh) and prostration (sujuud). If we deviate from having these primary positions in salah, then we would know we are moving away from the correct salah. But the good thing is that all Muslims who perform their salah today, do it according to these positions. So, if you do your five daily salah, you are doing it correctly. If you take the Qur'anic view, all the different madhab versions of salah, are correct (although interesting that the secterian view means, ones own sect is right and all the other sects are wrong!).
Qur'an gives the wudu sequence that has to be performed before salah, as well as tayammum, including the prayer times and qibla.
Lastly, the Qur'an is complete and fully detailed, it tells us so.
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The Qur'an however, confirms the compulsory positions of salah that must be there. Which is, standing, bowing (rukuh) and prostration (sujuud).
Then, where did the "sitting" after every other sujuud come from? Maybe it is not compulsary?
And according to the above, can we still say that the salaat we learn from "our fathers" is what the quraan explains? -
Salaam brothers and sisters,
Unknown, I was just wondering where are you? You came in threw a stone and seemed quite prepared to fight and defend your position but all of a sudden you disappeared. Did you change your mind now and decided not to go out public and debate this issue with Quran aloners?
Peace
FJ -
Peace be upon you all,
I guess I wil never get to see anyone show me where that (2,4,4,3,4) rakat schedule can be found. And the clock continues to run.
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Then, where did the "sitting" after every other sujuud come from? Maybe it is not compulsary?
And according to the above, can we still say that the salaat we learn from "our fathers" is what the quraan explains?The important aspect of salah is that it is done solely for Allah alone.
Salah was a familiar concept to those who heard the Qur'an back then. It was a matter of devoting worship solely to Allah alone. Salah was also performed by Prophets before the Prophet Muhammad.
