Revised Article on Jinn

maxq

I think Phoenix1 has made a good point... I also do not want to repeat my posts

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=526.msg105619#msg105619

Peace Phoenix

Have you seen God? I guess He doesn't exist then? Well you have the rest of your life to see Him, and if you don't .... good luck.

Many people don't understand things in the quran at the level that you do. Does that mean the quran wasn't written for the less intelligent?

Scientists understand this limitation. They try their best to understand the world around them but they know it may be impossible to fully understand everything. Theories evolve and disappear and come back in new forms. It's nothing new.

If you boast to know the world and everything in it, in your lifetime, then hats off to you. You may be the first person on earth with all the answers.

Peace Arnold

Where in the quran does it say that jinn could be travelers or foreigners? Made of smokeless fire? That go to the outer limits of the universe and try to gain secrets? Whisper to people? Sorry I didn't come across such foreigners. And I didn't see that verse in the quran either.

ayman

Peace brother Layth,

Thank you for posting this revised article. It is a good way to revitalize the discussions about this important question. Also bringing the appropriate passages of the great reading to support the article is a good approach. Therefore, I will focus on addressing more deeply the issues raised by those passages so as to encourage further discussions.

"I did not create the Jinn and the humans except to serve Me." (5156)

How do jinn serve the god? What good do jiinn do?

"He created the human from a clay, like pottery. And the Jinn He created from a smokeless fire." (5514-15)
"And We have created man from a clay hardened and shaped. And the Jinn, We created him before that from the flames of fire." (1526-27)

Are humans anything like clay? If I put a human next to a piece of clay, will I see any resemblance? Is clay what you are? Is clay what defines the human self?

This is all that iblis saw. He saw a creature that originated from clay. This was a mistake of arrogance. Arrogance blinds from the truth. Let's not make the same mistake as our enemy and consider him superficially as what he originated from.

"And we touched the heavens, but found it full of powerful guards and projectiles. And we used to sit in it in places of listening, but anyone who sits now finds a projectile seeking him." (728-9)

Humans are bombarded by projectiles when they go to outerspace. I worked on a project once to figure out the best location inside a next-generation space station to minimize exposure to cosmic particles. In particular, heavy nuclei in cosmic radiation were proven to cause brain damage.

"O Children of Adam, do not let the devil afflict you as he evicted your parents from the paradise; he removes from them their garments to show them their lusts. He and his tribe see you from where you do not see them. We have made the devils as allies for those who do not believe." (727)

We only see the superficial body of people. We do not see the real self of a person. You can't see the thoughts of even the closest people to you.

"But the devil whispered to him, he said 'O Adam, shall I lead you to the tree of immortality and a kingdom which will not waste away?'" (20120)

We are similarly told in 5016 that the human self "whispers". Our self communicates with us using the same way of "communication" as the "jinn". How does your self whisper? We all know the answer. Anyone who has had a thought knows. Just think about it.

"And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Angels 'Yield to Adam;' so they yielded except for Satan, he was not of those who yielded. He said 'What has prevented you from yielding when I have ordered you?' He said 'I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!'" (711-12)

While the Jinn were created long before mankind to uphold God's commands and serve Him alone, the Jinn had failed in their task and the mantle of responsibility was passed on from the Jinn to the humans by God's decree.

This is not what 711-12 says. Which passage in the great reading might that be? Where does it say that the jinn had failed? Where is the passage about the mantle of responsibility being passed from jinn to humans?

"And entice whoever you can of them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces and men against them, and you may share with them in their money and children, and promise them.? But the devil promises nothing but deceit. 'As for My servants, you will have no power over them.' And your Lord suffices as a Caretaker." (1764-65)

How can aliens made of plasma share in the humans' money and children?

"And among us are those who are good doers, and some of us are opposite to that, we are in many paths. And we acknowledge that we cannot escape God on Earth, nor can we escape Him if we run. And when we heard the guidance, we believed in it. So whoever believes in his Lord, then he will not fear a decrease in reward, nor a burdensome punishment. And among us are those who submitted, and among us are the compromisers. As for those who have submitted, they have sought what is correct. And as for the compromisers, they are firewood for Hell." (7211-15)

What is the good that the good-doing jinn do?

"And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him by his Lord's leave; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire. They made for him what he desired of enclosures, and statues, and pools of deep reservoirs, and heavy pots. ?O family of David, work to show thanks.? Only a few of My servants are appreciative. Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realised that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution." (3412-14)

Would you know right away that a man who is standing and leaning on his staff has died?

Unfortunately brother, you have not considered all the passages that talk about "jinn".

For example, you have not considered 3440-41 and 5319-28, which when taken together clearly indicate that Allat, Al3uzza and Manat are jinn. Are Allat, Al3uzza and Manat plasma aliens?

You have also not considered passages such as 6100

And they made for The God partners the "jinn" and their creation and they made up for Him sons and daughters without knowledge, be He exalted and He is above what they describe.

I do not know of anyone who takes "aliens made of plasma" as partners with the god. In fact, if we try to substitute "aliens made of plasma" in all the occurrences of the word "jinn", we would certainly see the logical difficulties this creates. For example, here

And they made for The God partners aliens made of plasma and their creation and they made up for Him sons and daughters without knowledge, be He exalted and He is above what they describe.

The same thing can be said about 37158-159. Try substituting "aliens made of plasma" here and you will see the difficulty

37158-159. And they made between Him and the "jinn" a kinship while the "jinn" know that they are summoned. The God be most exalted above what they describe.

How do humans enjoy "aliens made of plasma" below?

And at the time when He gathers them together, "O consorts of "jinn" you took a lot of the humans" and their protectors from the humans said "our Lord, we enjoyed one another and we reached our term that You appointed for us." He said "The fire is your abode, everlasting in it, except what The God willed, your Lord is wise, knowledgeable.

How did aliens made of plasma invent lies about the prophets?

And like this we made for each prophet enemies, those exceeding in corruption from the humans and the "jinn", they inspire one another with fancy sayings out of arrogance and had The God willed, they wouldn't have done it. So leave them and what they make up.

Finally, just look inside you. When long ago you were following the wrong path and Hadiths had power over you, was it because of "aliens made of plasma"? What fundamentally makes humans do wrong? This is the real enemy. This is what matters.

Peace,

Ayman

Layth

Peace Ayman,

Jinn serve God the same way humans do, that is by following the commands they are given by Him.
You and I are made of clay/mud literally. The composition of these matirials (minerals, water, etc) is what the human body is primarily composed of. By the same measure, Jinn are composed of the material which makes-up intense fire (energy, plasma).
Your comment on projectiles in space alwsays being there is not adressing the verses in mention at all...The verses say that the Jinn used to be able to sit in the outer heavens, but can no longer as they are now shot down/struck with projectiles. Had they been refering to the normal energy bombardment you are speaking of, then they would never have been able to sit and listen in the first place (i.e. it is a new advent, while the particles you speak of are as old as the universe).
Whispers/suggestions can be internal and external. Your own mind suggests things to you (nafs), but at the same time other people can influence your decision based on simple suggestions or input. The Jinn (Satan in particular) are able to make such hints and suggestions as was made to our father Adam with the issue of the tree.
Satan sharing in peoples money and children maybe by sharing in the utilization of such resources for his cause (i.e. if you will listen to Satan, then he will suggest you use your money and power and progeny to the service of his cause...Look to the nations that spend billions of $ to spread Sunnism, or who send their children to die in US proxy wars such as Afghanistan in the late 80's, etc.).
On the subject of Solomon and his staff...No human being would wait until a termite/worm ate through the staff of a person and he collapsed to know he has died (this process as I understand took days, not hours or minutes)...Humans would know by the movement or lack therofe of a person after a while.
On the subject of Al-Laat & Uzza, they may indeed have been idols inspired by the Jinn just like the Jinn (Satan) inspired Adam to set-up a partner with God to His commands. Taking the Jinn as partners with God is simply done by listening to their advice where its conflicts with Gods commands, thus they become shurakaa`.
Your use of the term aliens made of plasma as a translation for Jinn is biased and misleading. Do you translate the word Insaan as beings made of mud/clay? By adding the component these being are created of fire/plasma you are adding words to the translation which are not there. One of the options is to translate Jinn simply as demons just like Insaan is simply humans.
Demons/Jinn (the bad ones) lie about the prophets the same way Satan lied about God...They say things that they know is untrue in order to mislead and misdirect.

arnoldyasin

Peace Arnold

Where in the quran does it say that jinn could be travelers or foreigners? Made of smokeless fire? That go to the outer limits of the universe and try to gain secrets? Whisper to people? Sorry I didn't come across such foreigners. And I didn't see that verse in the quran either.

Peace boost,

Jinn is a common description of anything not commonly seen by the community people. This refers to powers of nature, to nomads, to emotions, to foreigners, to rulers of lands and peoples, to animals as snakes or insects, to dead people who they still revere and so on. You must look at what the word means in arabic and how it was used in the 6th century. Emotions as hate or anger whisper to people and they are jinn=concealed for our psyche as they are part of it. In astrology they believe the stars are moved by unseen=jinn forces who tell the secrets of God to us. As for the term smokeless fire, you need to use crossreference to understand the Quran

In verse 2137, where the term; ?KHULIQAL insanu MIN ?ajal?, literaly means; ?He created man out of haste?. Whereas the clear understanding is ?Man has been created with a tendency to be hasty and looking for instant gains or results?. Man is not of haste, it is an atribute of man's psyche to be hasty. The same is used for jinn, where emotions are described

?KHULAQAL jaanna MIN marijin MIN naar?; ?He created the concealed sides of man=jinn with a fiery disposition(fire)?.

Just like haste is an attribute of man's psyche, so also are man's emotions as fire that can cloud a man's thoughts. Not every occurence of jinn has the same meaning or refers to the same thing. This link between jinn=fire and humans=matter, is to always be found together. As shows that only the concealed things, the inner sides of the psyche, that were created with mankind, are made out of fire, symbolically referring to the nature of these desires, emotions and ego, what we refer to as the destructive side of man. See also; 5514-15, 3871-85. Explaining thus, that it is only this jinn , Iblis=literally means desperate/frustration, that is made as if out of fire, and not all jinns mentioned in the Quran. This is really important if we want to move on to understand the other uses for Jinn inside the Quran. As can been seen as how the sjeitan/iblis is used in the Quran, that it are perfect examples of how the ego and bad emotions as lust, hate and anger work.

And can you answer me this Boost and Layth

It is such that We make the wicked as supporters to one another for what they had earned.

"O you assemblies of concealed/rarely seen ones and people, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Era?" They said "Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;" and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters. That is because your Lord was not to destroy any town because of its wickedness while its people were unaware.

As the Quran never mentions the jinn having any Book received, as well that, if they were mythological creatures, it is weird both jinn and people are be to given the Quran, that the Quran is for both groups, and that there are only human messengers mentioned inside of it. Also only examples of history, laws and advises of mankind, meant only for mankind and not for the mythological invisible spirits. Where are the invisible spirits prophets? Where are the laws for the invisible spirits? Where are the communities of jinn that were destroyed mentioned? Why aren?t they mentioned in the Quran? As this goes against logic, as well as there is a much better answer for it. Here ins is used for the people, as opposite of jinns, people not direct living in those societies, as living in small villages, nomads, living in jungles, bums, hermits, monks and nuns, people working behind the scenes of government, and anything that falls under normally concealed/not seen/rarely seen in the society, by the people. All nations in the Quran were destroyed by PHYSICAL means, while in this verse jinn and ins are clearly mentioned together and that they were destroyed in their towns. ONE Where are the towns of jinn? TWO? Why are there only HUMAN towns mentioned that are destroyed?

As for historical stories as of Solomon, a lot of symbolism is used so be carefull not to be trapped by 37.....
As a scientist, i can only reject something when i can disprove it. As i canNOT disprove or prove invisible beings, i don't reject them. The main point of my argument is that the word jinn is totaly approached in a wrong way, as a title, a word with one fixed meaning. This is completely wrong and blocks many of the Quranic messages.

You cannot put my arguments next to those of Ayman or Phoenix's who have a different approach and arguments. Ayman cannot explain why certain verses talk about as if they are intelligent, and Phoenix's arguments also have flaws. To resemble my argument with the salat argument is wrong, as i agree with you that salat is a physical ritual, but i don't agree that salat has only one meaning in the Quran. Same holds for jinn, it has several meanings.

maxq

Arnold, in lieu of not being able to disprove, I also want to propose that the universe (or multiverse) is a vast expanse... Allah does claim in the Quran that He is the "Lord of the Worlds" (Worlds implying 3+), so there is a possibility of extraterrestrial life in this Universe, and since its existance is thus far hidden from us, it could also imply "jinn".

To quote Iqbal "sitron se aagay jahaan aur bhi hen"

maxq

heck, to them we might be jinn (this is not a joke)

But to claim that jinn are invisible magical beings that whisper into our hearts is a superstitious belief IMO. If I base my argument on the premise that Quran is the Word of God, then I have no choice but to reject the claim. There is no evidence in the Quran that suggests that any world/life other than ad-Dunya and al-Aakhirah is of any direct influence or consequence to us as implied by traditional jinn-being theory. If you suggest however, that germs that penetrate into a host (and can cause harm covertly) are hidden to the five human senses, hence jinn, then that is an acceptable implication as one of the usages for the term (to define the attribute of being concealed/hidden in any way).

maxq

Maybe it wasn't. But the quran's message isn't about being intelligent. It's about our struggle to fight our desires and emotions and believe in what's right. It's not an intellectual battle at all. Anyone can do it. There is nothing complicated about the quran's message. Nothing an average human being will not understand.

Quran is directed to all mankind, but to say that it isn't about being intelligent may not be correct. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to understand the Quran. However, that does not mean you can understand it without logic and reason. Quran itself invites one be "intelligent" when approaching It for guidance; why else would there be statements in the Quran such as "do they not think?" or "there are signs for those who use their intellect"...

phoenix1

peace maxq, I agree.
But I meant it's message isn't about being intelligent, it's about being at peace. Thanks for clearing that up, though.

maxq

No problem Phoenix1 )

I agree with Arnold's ideology and am revising my understanding of the 14th and 15th aayaat of Al-Rahman

(He) created the human (form) out of inorganic matter that sounded like an empty pot. (And it was empty of a trace of the finished form). And created the jinn (psychological aspects, thought processes, that others cannot see or sense) out of a flickering flame of fire/chaos.

Of course, the context of the jinn implies this particular meaning for this verse and a select others, but not all of the verses where the word jinn is used.

I do not think many will agree with this, but it can be one of the meanings IMO.

Another interpretation is from Dr. Shabbir Ahmed (ourbeacon.com) implying civilized/urbanized/modern man in ayah 14 and nomad/caveman/prehistoric-man in ayah 15, which also makes sense.

ayman

Peace Layth,

Jinn serve God the same way humans do, that is by following the commands they are given by Him.

Thank you for the good answers. So next let's look at the commands that the god gives to the jinn in the great reading. From the passages that you brought, we can see at least the following commands

Obey the human.
Make enclosures.
Make statues.
Make pools of deep reservoirs
Make heavy pots.

The purpose of the jinn is to serve the god. By doing the above things the jinn serve the god. So this is the purpose of the jinn.

What do those tasks tell us about the purpose of the jinn? Are "plasmatic aliens" the first thing that comes to mind when you hear those tasks?

You and I are made of clay/mud literally. The composition of these matirials (minerals, water, etc) is what the human body is primarily composed of. By the same measure, Jinn are composed of the material which makes-up intense fire (energy, plasma).

Insects, trees and even hidden bacteria that we cannot see are made of those same clay/mud materials. Apart from the composition, we are not much like those creatures. Do you see the error that you make by taking "what one is made of" as the defining aspect?

All that iblis saw was "a creature made of mud". He took this as the defining feature. Let's not make the same mistake as iblis and take "a creature made of fire" as the defining feature of the jinn. Otherwise, we are just as superficial as our enemy. Let's focus on the purpose. The god didn't create the jinn in vain. What can we learn from the great reading about their purpose based on the commands that the god gave them?

Your comment on projectiles in space alwsays being there is not adressing the verses in mention at all...The verses say that the Jinn used to be able to sit in the outer heavens, but can no longer as they are now shot down/struck with projectiles. Had they been refering to the normal energy bombardment you are speaking of, then they would never have been able to sit and listen in the first place (i.e. it is a new advent, while the particles you speak of are as old as the universe).

Perhaps the projectiles would not affect the "jinn" until they became attached to the humans.

Whispers/suggestions can be internal and external. Your own mind suggests things to you (nafs), but at the same time other people can influence your decision based on simple suggestions or input. The Jinn (Satan in particular) are able to make such hints and suggestions as was made to our father Adam with the issue of the tree.

This didn't answer the question of how. Tell me brother, did an "external" jinn whisper to you? I am sure it had as with all humans. If so, tell us how. I am sure that you did something bad at one point or another. What made you do it? Was it internal or external? If it was external then how did it communicate with you? If it was internal then how did it communicate with you? If it was internal, was its communication in any way different than your thoughts? How so?

It is not a coincidence that the same exact term "waswas" (whisper) is used to describe the communication of the self and the communication of the jinn. How do you communicate with yourself? Can other people see what you are communicating to yourself or is it hidden like the jinn?

Satan sharing in peoples money and children maybe by sharing in the utilization of such resources for his cause (i.e. if you will listen to Satan, then he will suggest you use your money and power and progeny to the service of his cause...Look to the nations that spend billions of $ to spread Sunnism, or who send their children to die in US proxy wars such as Afghanistan in the late 80's, etc.).

I agree that the one increasing in corruption ("shaytan&quot shares in such resources. What is the logic behind wars and idolatry? How do people reach the decision to do such things? Was it "plasmatic aliens" who told a Sunni to spread Sunnism?

On the subject of Solomon and his staff...No human being would wait until a termite/worm ate through the staff of a person and he collapsed to know he has died (this process as I understand took days, not hours or minutes)...Humans would know by the movement or lack therofe of a person after a while.

Here in the US, there are several instances of homeless people who were sitting on a bench in plain sight of people and were found to be dead many days after they had died. I think that, unless you want to claim otherwise, in the matter of knowing the hidden, perhaps most humans are almost as clueless as jinn.

On the subject of Al-Laat & Uzza, they may indeed have been idols inspired by the Jinn just like the Jinn (Satan) inspired Adam to set-up a partner with God to His commands. Taking the Jinn as partners with God is simply done by listening to their advice where its conflicts with Gods commands, thus they become shurakaa`.

Brother, Al-Laat & Uzza are themselves jinn according to the analysis of the passages that I pointed you to. I am sure that you have seen Al-Laat & Uzza idols in your visit to Petra. Can those stones give any advice that you or anyone can listen or not listen to? What are those stone idols the product of?

Let's say I show you a stone and tell you that it is made of special material from heaven and if you kiss it and spin around it seven times, your sins will be forgiven and I tell you that I can sell it to you for a million dollars. Is a plasmatic alien inside that stone telling me to do it?

Your use of the term aliens made of plasma as a translation for Jinn is biased and misleading. Do you translate the word Insaan as beings made of mud/clay? By adding the component these being are created of fire/plasma you are adding words to the translation which are not there. One of the options is to translate Jinn simply as demons just like Insaan is simply humans.

I never suggested that "insaan" means "being made of clay". You suggested that the meaning of "jinn" is "aliens made of plasma". So this is what I used. If you like "demons" better then please put "demons" in all the occurrences of "jinn" and see if it fits.

And they made for The God partners the demons and their creation and they made up for Him sons and daughters without knowledge, be He exalted and He is above what they describe.

When Sunnis make the prophet, some stones and their clergy partners do they make demons partners?

The same thing can be said about 37158-159. Try substituting "demons" here and you will see the difficulty

37158-159. And they made between Him and the demons a kinship while the demons know that they are summoned. The God be most exalted above what they describe.

Who are those demons that people have made kinship with the god? Are they "plasmatic aliens"? Did you ever hear of any religion claiming that "demons" or even "plasmatic aliens" are relatives of the god?

How do humans enjoy "demons" below?

And at the time when He gathers them together, "O consorts of demons you took a lot of the humans" and their protectors from the humans said "our Lord, we enjoyed one another and we reached our term that You appointed for us." He said "The fire is your abode, everlasting in it, except what The God willed, your Lord is wise, knowledgeable.

Would you enjoy a "demon"?

Demons/Jinn (the bad ones) lie about the prophets the same way Satan lied about God...They say things that they know is untrue in order to mislead and misdirect.

So when in the late Abbassid period, people invented Hadiths against the keeping of dogs and encouraging their killing to curb the spread of rabies or for whatever reason, they were listening to demons?

Was it "demons" who wrote the Hadith books?

When you were following Hadith, were you listening to a demon? Take an honest look inside you and tell me if you could.

Peace,

Ayman

maxq

Salam Layth

If jinns are living beings with free will, who are made from energy/plasma, then how do you explain the following

2130 Are the unbelievers not aware (after this proclamation) that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that We exploded into parting? And that out of water We made every living thing? Will they not, then, acknowledge the Truth?

Something's gotta give...

phoenix1

peace maxq,
thank you for bringing out that verse. I think it is included to make sure that people don't mistake jinn for living beings. Living things are made of water. Jinn are made of fire. We are made of clay.
there is obviously symbolism at work here.

arnoldyasin

Peace,

No dear Phoenix, it is title-forming, which creates these contradictions. Jinn is not a title, but a description which refers to many things. It is very clear when people use their mind in stead of holding on to wrong approaches.

nadeem

Hi there,

So, when I say 'Computer' I'm referring to every- or anything that computes?

When I say 'My computer cost two thousand", it could actually mean "My calculator/clock/PC/Accountant/ cost two thousand". ?

I think it's unfair to assume that a general description can't serve as a specific title.

Nadeem

arnoldyasin

Peace,

The word 'computer' is a title of a sort of machine. The word jinn just means 'something or someone rarely seen or concealed by time, horizon, distance, reality and so on'. This description is the same as 'walking being', does 'walking being' refer to one species? No everything that walks. The same holds for the word jinn, which points out to anything hidden or rarelt seen that fits the context of the verses used. Plus the whole idea of jinn being a species contradicts many verses, as there are no laws given to jinns or any jinn-messenger mentioned, while the Quran is also clearly for the jinn beings, so this refers that these jinns are humans rarely seen, while other jinn mentioned in the Quran can mean totaly different things. See my article to see what i mean

http//19.org/index.php?id=91,417,0,0,1,0

phoenix1

peace arnold,
then what is made of fire? why does it just refer to it as "hidden" (because anything can be hidden) and not what it actually is?

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Read my article........

maxq

Unlike verses 14 and 15 of Al-Rahman, there is no symbolism in 2130... this verse is clearly stating that the universe formed out of a "big bang", and all life in the universe is water based, or rather it emerged from water...

peace maxq,
thank you for bringing out that verse. I think it is included to make sure that people don't mistake jinn for living beings. Living things are made of water. Jinn are made of fire. We are made of clay.
there is obviously symbolism at work here.

phoenix1

peace

so are we really made of clay?

maxq

As I said, verses 14 and 15 of Al-Rahman may have symbolic connotation...

(He) created the human (form) out of inorganic matter that sounded like an empty pot. (And it was empty of a trace of the finished form). And created the jinn (psychological aspects, thought processes, that others cannot see or sense) out of a flickering flame of fire/chaos.

refer to 5016, and 230 why I used this interpretation.

However, I also agree with what Arnold's position that he has presented in his article "Intelligent Design out of clay" for verse 14 of Al-Rahman.

I presented a complementing explanation for verse 15 considering the meaning of jinn as hidden

Neurons in the human brain function literally through electrical discharges that cannot occur in nature without being chaotic. They cannot occur in a cohesive and coherent pattern as they do in the brain, and give rise to our conciousness and thought processes, something hidden to the outside.

So we have been given a body made of various organic and inorganic substances, but without what happened in verse 15, we would be just like pottery (lifeless) We have been given life, intellect and emotions through our firey disposition fashioned into coherent form.