Revised Article on Jinn
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As-Salaam-u-Alaikum Layth,
Like I said, Anyone who reads this thread in its entirity will be able to make a meaningful decision... No offence is taken Layth; I believe that you are sincere in your discussion, but you must accept that no one else on the thread has had the extra time to spare in idle talk either.
Knowing this little info will help solve your dilema whereby you are discarding lots of events simply because you cannot verify them or see them today (did Moses split the sea? since it can
t be done or seen today then people who do not accept belieivng in theghayb` end-up denying that a physical pareting took place and enter into this strange explanations that it was metaphoric, etc.).
If you had reviewed my post in its entirity, you would not have asked me about believing about the "Ghaib"... There is no direct mention but the context is there. Nonetheless...This is an attempt to rectify the translation you assumed I would provide for the verses
725 And behold, we used to think that people or those (nomads/gypsies/shamans/sufis) who are covert (in misleading them - or who live in wilderness and are rarely seen by the urbanites/people 612, would never utter a lie about Allah.
726 And, indeed some people of town dwellers used to seek shelter/spend time with some of those covert/rarely-seen ones, and increased them in confusion.
727 And they thought as you thought that Allah would never again send forth anyone. (As His Messenger, and so, the claimants of the occult sciences would carry on with their deceptions).
728 And we tried to feel the heaven but found it well attended by mighty guards and flames." (The shining Knowledge in the Quran dismisses all conjecture of the astrologers, fortune-tellers, and other claimants of occult sciences).
729 (The nomads continued), "And we used to sit on places listening to the 'heavenly news'. But now whoever listens will find a flame waiting for him. (The brilliant flame of Divine Revelation is now ever-ready to torch the conjecture of the astrologers 376-9, 675).
7210 And we know not whether harm is intended for the inhabitants of the earth, or whether their Lord wills for them Enlightenment." (It remains to be seen how people will react to this revolutionary Message).5514-15 (He) created the human (form) out of inorganic matter that sounded like an empty pot. (And it was empty of a trace of the finished form). And created that which is hidden (psychological aspects, thought processes, that others cannot see or sense) out of a flickering flame of fire/chaos.
1850 Recall when We told the angels, "Bow yourselves before Adam!" They all bowed except Iblis (from BLS, hinting rebellious side of man). He was of the stealthy (selfish desires) that drifted away from his Lord's Command. Will you still befriend him and his comrades? What a miserable exchange do the wrongdoers make for the right guidance! (230-3.
711 We created you, then shaped you, then told the angels, "Be of service to Adam! And they agreed to be of service, all but Iblis (Satan). He was not of the subservient.
I would assume that according to your methodology, Satan is not really an alien or other being (since you have not seen or verified him) but all these verses are allegoric and Satan must be a reperesantation of the human conciousness which is of a firey nature and argues that it is better than the calm part of the conciousness (represented by a reference to humans being made from clay)?
Not that it is better, but that it will not bow/prostrate (serve) and would rather control the conscious and the form. Your assumption is correct except for what I described in the preceding sentence.As for bedu mythology, I couldn't care less what beduin think the jinn are too. I am interested in how they got to that conclusion based on the meaning of the word jinn...
I do not think we are getting anywhere by splitting hairs. I spoke my mind and you did yours, and so did Ayman and Arnold. Everyone in this thread had meaningful input and I do not think this discussion was in vain. I thank you for the opportunity for allowing me to participate.
What I would urge you to do is put a "disputed topic" label in your article on the jinn for the main website... that is more representative of the discussion than anything else. Something like
To the readers, just keep 1736 in mind... (but please use the correct rendition of 1736 I have used it in this thread. Do not use Yousuf Ali's translation at least)
God bless.
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Peace Layth,
- On the issue of
ma3shar, it is a stating the obvious since it is clear from the Quran that the fate of the Jinn and Inss are intertwined.
The word "ma3shar" doesn't mean "intertwined fate". It means constantly living together. Thus, "3ashar" means "live with". This is in line with what we are told about "jinn" being linked to humans.
- On the issue of Jinn being the
human creative side...Sorry, but that is really ignoring some obvious verses such as Iblees being from the Jinn, such as the Jinn saying they used to travel the heavens to listen-in on God`s decrees, etc..
Why would "iblees" being from the "jinn" negate that? Does this mean that you think that our imagination/creative side is our own creation, not another creature of the god? Do you think that that ability to imagine did not exist before humans?
What "listening-in on God`s decrees"? Please tell us where in the scripture it says this about the god's decrees.
The god guides with the truth. Believing in demons and plasmatic aliens/ghosts is what sectarians believe in. This clearly hasn't helped them get nearer to the truth.
Every passage in the great reading is relevant to improve our understanding and guide us. What guidance did you get out from your claim that "jinn" means demons? Have you ever experienced such demons? If not, then are all those passages that supposedly talk about them irrelevant to you?
We should know better. Everyone who has done wrong has experienced those so-called demons. I am sure you have, or do you think that "jinn" are always someone else's problem that is irrelevant to you? Just look inside you and tell us what has made you or others do wrong? I know that you know. WE ALL KNOW. So please answer honestly. When you are tempted to do wrong and you fight back and stay in control, is it a demon that you are fighting? By claiming that our enemy is a demon that is irrelevant to us as opposed to the real hidden enemy that we all instinctively know, aren't you undermining the fight and making all those passages about "jinn" irrelevant?
At any rate, if you are set on "jinn" being "demons" then try to find another description because if you look up "demons" in any dictionary you will find that it means "mythological evil creatures". I noticed that you used sometimes the word "those who remained hidden" this is better. We are told in the scripture that "those who remained hidden" communicate with us in the same way as ourselves communicates with us. Thus, for all intents and purposes they can be considered a component of our psyche.
Finally, people often quote the following passage when discussing "jinn", and you did too.
"Those who believe in the unseen/unknown (ghayb), and honour the Salat, and from Our provisions to them they spend." (23)
According to 3441, we should not believe in "jinn".
Peace,
Ayman
- On the issue of
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Peace be upon you Ayman and all,
According to 3441, we should not believe in "jinn".
(3441)They said "Your praise/glory; you are our guardian/ally from other than them, but they were serving the hidden (visual thoughts/imagination), most of them are trusters(muminoona) in them (visual thoughts/imagination)."
I think by using trust rather than believe (in every occurence) will give us the correct understanding. If we sit back and observe how we act , we wil notice that when certain things happen in life, we are conditioned to have certain thoghts and images to come to our minds on how to respond. For example, we are on a diet, but we walk pass a bakery and the smell is soooooo delightful, so we start to see ourselves eating the cakes and pies, etc. Or we are somewhere and someone steps on our foot, the image of us punching this person may come to us because on TV or on radio or maybe our friends always respond or talk about responding to such a situation in that manner.
The point is that thoughts and images come to us AUTOMATICALLy based on how we have been programmed or how we have programmed ourselves and WOE to the one who programs but is not aware of the programming(salaat). All of the thoughts and images that come to us AUTOMATICALLy are NOT tor be trusted, meaning followed blindly. We must be at PEACE in all adversities, so that our Energies are at rest, not moving, therefore we can reason properly how to respond, OR we must reporgram our spirits to automatically respond correctly.
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Peace Kyle,
Thank you for your comments on this important topic.
(3441)They said "Your praise/glory; you are our guardian/ally from other than them, but they were serving the hidden (visual thoughts/imagination), most of them are trusters(muminoona) in them (visual thoughts/imagination)."
I think by using trust rather than believe (in every occurence) will give us the correct understanding. If we sit back and observe how we act , we wil notice that when certain things happen in life, we are conditioned to have certain thoghts and images to come to our minds on how to respond. For example, we are on a diet, but we walk pass a bakery and the smell is soooooo delightful, so we start to see ourselves eating the cakes and pies, etc. Or we are somewhere and someone steps on our foot, the image of us punching this person may come to us because on TV or on radio or maybe our friends always respond or talk about responding to such a situation in that manner.
The point is that thoughts and images come to us AUTOMATICALLy based on how we have been programmed or how we have programmed ourselves and WOE to the one who programs but is not aware of the programming(salaat). All of the thoughts and images that come to us AUTOMATICALLy are NOT tor be trusted, meaning followed blindly. We must be at PEACE in all adversities, so that our Energies are at rest, not moving, therefore we can reason properly how to respond, OR we must reporgram our spirits to automatically respond correctly.
I generally agree with what you are saying and I see wisdom in it.
I don't see much difference between faith and trust. We should not have faith/trust in fantasies because they are not real. So, for example, we shouldn't have faith/trust in the fantasy of an all powerful stone statue. We control this fantasy with the truth (reality). The problem is not in the image itself per say. Thus, two people can be looking at the same piece of rock, one sees a rock and the other sees a powerful idol.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
I generally agree with what you are saying and I see wisdom in it.
I don't see much difference between faith and trust.
The difference I was trying to point out was between "belief" and "trust". Trust adds the element of conviction to the belief. See, there are two kinds of beliefs, one where you are CONVINCED and one where you are not convinced. The one where you are CONVINCED becomes TRUST. And it is that which we TRUST that moves us. Our energies are motivated by this CONVICTION, wether for right or wrong.
Let me give an example, one is living in poor conditions and they asy "I believe one day I will get enough money to do such and such"...yes, they have that belief, but it does not really "MOVE" them per say....however, lets say this same person gets a call from thier brother or sister saying that they think they just came across an idea that will make them rich and they explain how this will work, etc...now this same belief of one day getting enough money has CONVICTION behind it and so when they say it now, there is EBERGY behind it, you can "feel" it. But this does not make it Truth(KNOWLEDGE), it is still a belief because it is not certain if you will make money. But the difference is the energy.
I will search for a better example to clarify this point.
We should not have faith/trust in fantasies because they are not real.<<<
This is a point where we differ and I hope we can have good dialogue about this as we move foward. I am using the word Imagination rather than fantasy, because what I have come to understand is that what you do in your imagination and what you do in real life is NOT DIFFERENTIATED in your spirit!!! Meaning your imagination is VERY REAL as far as your spirit(nafs) is concerned, and that is why/how the imagination is used as a tool for programing/reprogaming the spirit(nafs). We can use the example of the "wet dream" where one is having sex in a dream (imagination) and wakes up to find they have literally ejaculated. Sports players use imagination to improve thier game. If you imagine yourself performing a perfect golf swing over and over again, your spirit registers that as perfect swings in real life, and you become better at your real performance.
We can go into that more but my point is that Imagination is very real, the problem is that the images that come to us in moments of adversity SUGGEST to us how to act, if we TRUST those images, we could be steered in the wrong direction.
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layth wrote
Conclusion- Jinn are beings made of energy "Plasma" that is derived from smokeless fire;
- Jinn were created before mankind to serve God and uphold his commands;
- Jinn were able to travel the galaxy and listen-in on God's commands to His angels;
- Jinn failed in the task of upholding God's commands and were replaced in authority by mankind;
- Satan pleaded with God to remain on Earth and prove that mankind is unworthy;
- God granted Satan's request, with restriction on the movement of Jinn to this universe only;
- Jinn camp is split between those who repented to God and those who insist on Satan's way;
- Human messengers are sent not only to revert mankind, but also to revert Jinn;
- Jinn may whisper to all humans, except those who invoke God's protection;
- Jinn may move physical objects, possess artistic as well as construction abilities.
a good read....quite well supported by quran! -)
....however, at the moment, i ve reservations about conclusions 4 and 9...and maybe a bit about 8!
nonetheless...well-articulated and clear....a good read! -)
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Yeah about Jinn...I read they do not possess the ruwh, or spirit.
Where?
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From the black panther.
Is it a nice book? I mean is it worth reading?