INTRODUCTION TO PEACEFULNESS
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Peace Tanveer , Samia , Nabi
Moral of the story #2
If you see a dream of sacrificing your son, always ask your son because he will be able to advise you, even if you are Prophet Abraham, that killing innocent people is bad according to Gods command that you were just going to forget that important command being a prophet.
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Peace
Sarcasm aside , even men of God stray . One must be consistent in the remembrance of God and in contemplating the many things in life we may come across and learn from those wrong decisions we make. For example, to show you what it is I mean, we are not to take the example of Abraham praying for a disbeliever . Also take a look at an envoy of God who in my opinion was like any other human, subject to leave the straight path .
http//www.geocities.com/fingolfin_hk/Jonah.html
Joe
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Ayman raises a very good point.
Considering the usage of the word, in Quran A Reformist Translation, I translated the term "islam" as "peaceful submission/surrender (to God)" and "muslim" as "those who submit themselves to God peacefully". To avoid verboseness, I occasionally translated them "peaceful surrendering" and and "peaceful surrenderers."
Peace,
Edip -
Also take a look at an envoy of God who in my opinion was like any other human, subject to leave the straight path .
"And Jonah, when he went off in anger, and he thought that We would not be able to take him. Then he called out in the darkness ?There is no god but You! Glory to You, I was of the wicked!? So We responded to him and We saved him from distress. And it is such that We save the faithful". (2186-87)
I do not compare "went off in anger" to "killing your children, or any innocent person". The lattae is part of the prohibitions mentioned in the straight path (don't kill innocents), but the former is not.
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Peace
I do not compare "went off in anger" to "killing your children, or any innocent person".
Nor do I think you should. I did not mean that at all. I hope we cannot restrict the meanings of things as people are won't to do with arabic terminology. My sole contention was that no man is incapable of slipping.
The lattae is part of the prohibitions mentioned in the straight path (don't kill innocents), but the former is not.
Then take note that the straight path concerns serving God . To which Jonah had not the heart.
Joe
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Peace,
This is not directly related to the article posted, but I am wondering why are most people having such an aversion to some direct statements made in the Quran?
God tells us that Abraham had a vision in which he was slaughtering is son...he then went to carry out such a vision and God intervened saving his son.
Why is the above issue such a problem where we have new meanings ascribed and when the vision is not a vision or where the meaning is changed to be made other than what it is?
Abraham is a prophet and as such God speaks directly through him...
None of you are prophets and therefore you would not be expected to treat your visions in the same way Abraham dealt with his.
This can be seen in another example where the children of Israel who rebelled are told to take their own lives...The one who told them this was a prophet under command from God, yet we have people here saying it was not to kill but that they were told to kill their egos and other such stuff.
I believe the distinction needs to be made that we are not in the company of prophets and therefore cannot compare the commands they give (from God) to people with what we do amongst ourselves. None of us is authorized to ask people to kill themselves or to kill anyone else if it is not for a direct crime that is commanded to be dealt with as such.
God is not to be asked about what He does or says while we on the other hand are...
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
Can the verse regarding Ibrahim and his son be saying "When they became peaceful and pushed him(his son) to his forehead"? Meaning that he pushed him down to sacrifice him?
Here is the Literal translation on Lharzi's site..it seems to have forheads in plural. Also, they dont have the word "animal" either.
I withdraw my former explanation, which is no longer here anyway )
So when he reached the struggle/endeavor with him, he said you my son "That I, I see/understand in the sleep/dream that I, I slaughter you/cut your throat, so look/wonder about/consider what you see/understand." He said "You my father, make/do what you are being ordered/commanded, so you will find me, if God wills/wants from the patient." So when they (B) submitted/surrounded and he pulled/pushed/followed him to the foreheads.
And We called him "That you Abraham." You had confirmed the dream, We (E), like that We reimburse the good doers. That truly that it is (E) the test, the clear/evident . And We substituted him with a great slaughtered
And We left on him in the others/lasts . -
Peace Ayman,
I just wanted to commend you on yet another inspiring and much needed article. Great work bro.
This can be seen in another example where the children of Israel who rebelled are told to take their own lives...The one who told them this was a prophet under command from God, yet we have people here saying it was not to kill but that they were told to kill their egos and other such stuff.
Bro, I really believe you should re-assess your understanding of this verse especially in light of the fact that GOD's mercy and forgiveness are mentioned within that same verse.
My humble advice bro.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you,
I want to share my thoughts at this moment, to try toget this moving. I am suggesting that this is talking about ibrahim "sacrificing" his son, and we are given this story in literal form just as we are given seas splitting and sticks turning into snakes, but the implication I beleive is that Ibrahim must dedicate his son to God's work, not to what Ibrahim might have had in mind for his son. And as awlays, this is an example for all of us, so we must look at our children with the understanding that we should raise the to be "peaceful" (muslim) and dedicated to manifesting God Like behavior at all times. We must sacrifice our ideas of them being what our limited minds have conjured up and submit thier lives to God's Divine Plan.
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Peace be upon you all,
Yes, the more I think on it, Ibrahim "pushed" his son to his forehead literally, but the vision was already confirmed "MENTALLY", which is all teh God was asking because the God would never command the physical sacrificing of a human being. The God just wanted Ibrahim to give up his desires for his son, and have his son be dedicated to the God, just as we see the the story of Mariam being dedicated to God.
And we can apply this to much of the symbolism, let us not look for seas to be literally split, not sticks to turn to snakes. Let us look towards the mental behavior, the real teaching, which is given to us as similitudes.
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Peace be upon you Pheonix1,
If we are supposed to sacrifice the animal, how do we control it?
The animal, is just a symbol for our emotions, which are the animalistic part of our being. Which is why the God compares the wicked to pigs and apes and cattle, etc. Worse even because we CHOOSE to behave that way. Anyway, we "sacrifice" the "animal" by IGNORING it. You cannot fight ENERGY with PEACE(no energy), but when you are at PEACE, meaning not being pushed in any direstcion and can therefore reason properly, you are the FREE to IGNORE anything.
One must take a look at addictions, is there anything in your life that you wanted to give up, like Pork, drugs/alcohol, a certain person that you were attracted to, etc. How did you finally conquer that situation? If you meditate on it you will see that it was a process of ignoring the thoughts and images about the object when they came to you...and over time (legth depending on your ability to ignore and stay at peace) ..the thoughts and images gradually lost thier power. Now, when you see the pork, or the durgs, or the other person, they have no ATTRACTING POWER over you at all. Does anyone else bear witness to this process?
Freedom is in IGNORING.
If anyone is familiar with the movie "A Beautiful mind" with Russel Crowe, it shows this process.
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Peace Kyle,
Can the verse regarding Ibrahim and his son be saying "When they became peaceful and pushed him(his son) to his forehead"? Meaning that he pushed him down to sacrifice him?
The short answer is "no". By observing animal slaughter, we can verify that they are not pushed to the forehead. They are layed down on their sides or their head is layed on its side to expose the neck. This is not the slaughter position. The forehead is more likely to be Ibrahim's forehead.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Layth,
My reply to your post was lost in the transition. Therefore, I am reposting. By the way, thank you for your excellent efforts to make the transition to the new server.
God tells us that Abraham had a vision in which he was slaughtering is son...he then went to carry out such a vision and God intervened saving his son.
Why is the above issue such a problem where we have new meanings ascribed and when the vision is not a vision or where the meaning is changed to be made other than what it is?
Abraham is a prophet and as such God speaks directly through him...There is no evidence that all or even some dreams that any prophet has are commandments from the god. The root of this assumption is the many Hadiths that speak about "the dreams from the god" that the prophet allegedly had. Would brother Layth please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't know of any sign in the great reading that confirms such traditional understanding.
None of you are prophets and therefore you would not be expected to treat your visions in the same way Abraham dealt with his.
Indeed we are not prophets, but Youssef was and as far as I know, he didn't bring the sun, the moon and the planets and made them submit to him in reality. Similarly, he didn't bring seven skinny cows and made them eat seven fat cows. So dreams cannot be taken literally as you assumed. Again, the assumption of this dream being a literal command from the god, is just an assumption based on the traditional understanding and not on anything in the great reading.
Since as you know we are not prophets, we should not pretend to be Prophet Youssef and claim to know exactly that the dream meant "an order from the god for Ibrahim to murder his son". EVEN IBRAHIM HIMSELF didn't know the meaning of the dream and hence he asked his son about it. From the great reading, only Youssef knew how to interpret dreams. There is no evidence that Ibrahim, Ismael, Lot, or any other prophet knew how to interpret dreams. Certainly, I never claimed to know what the dream meant and none of us here should claim to know it either.
This can be seen in another example where the children of Israel who rebelled are told to take their own lives...The one who told them this was a prophet under command from God, yet we have people here saying it was not to kill but that they were told to kill their egos and other such stuff.
I believe the distinction needs to be made that we are not in the company of prophets and therefore cannot compare the commands they give (from God) to people with what we do amongst ourselves. None of us is authorized to ask people to kill themselves or to kill anyone else if it is not for a direct crime that is commanded to be dealt with as such.
God is not to be asked about what He does or says while we on the other hand are...Did Moses see a dream and based on the dream ask the descendents of Israel to kill themselves? No. This was a command from the god and only after they had made a grave crime. Please show a single example in the great reading where a prophet gets an order from the god in a dream.
We are specifically told that Ibrahim was an example "uswa" for us. Where else other than the great reading should we get the example of Ibrahim? If anyone knows, please do tell.
I hope this helps clarify things.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brothers Damon and Tay,
Thank you for your kind comments. All good comes from the god and I only get credit for mistakes. I think that several forethoughtful people here, including you, were thinking about this along the same lines and anyone of them could have written the same or better article.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace be upon you all,
In that case I have another question, does the verse say "foreheads" (plural) as the Literal translation states?
So when he reached the struggle/endeavor with him, he said you my son "That I, I see/understand in the sleep/dream that I, I slaughter you/cut your throat, so look/wonder about/consider what you see/understand." He said "You my father, make/do what you are being ordered/commanded, so you will find me, if God wills/wants from the patient." So when they (B) submitted/surrounded and he pulled/pushed/followed him to the foreheads.
And We called him "That you Abraham." You had confirmed the dream, We (E), like that We reimburse the good doers. That truly that it is (E) the test, the clear/evident . And We substituted him with a great slaughtered
And We left on him in the others/lasts .If so, then I think I have come to an understanding that fits. This chapter is about RANKING, putting things in the proper order, priorities. So Ibrahim gets the vision of sacrifice, but doesnt fully understand the vision. It is given to him in symbolism. However he understands that the God is most important, more important the even his very son. Ibrahim asks his son wht he thinks and his son says to do as you are commanded, showing that we must dedicate not only our children, but our own lives to the service of Righteousness and spreading the message of Peace. So they both became peaceful (submitted to thier destiny) and Ibrahim pulled his sons forhead to his own, symbolizing thier oneness/unity in what is to be done. This is when the God reveals to them that the vision is confirmed, it is thier WILLINGNESS to sacrifice ANYTHING AT ALL to be the vessel of God that the vision was showing Ibrahim, it was not meant to be literal.
The God does not shy from similitudes and we see all over how the literal interpretation leads us astray, but the underlying message is the real nourishment.
The Great sacrifice that was given was the emotion of Fear that would prevent you from sacrificing what you "love" for God, be it "money", "women", "ideas" etc.
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Peace idolfree1, we are not supposed to dedicate our son (children) towards any action that will cause minor harm let alone sacrificing him. This goes against the fundamental belief of Quraan (free will) and that God is good. Therefore, we cannot justify sacrificing a child as The God?s commandment. Your assertion of ?we must dedicate not only our children ?? is simply wrong. You are advocating compulsion which is against Quraanic value.
When a child is born the doctor immediately cuts off the umbilical cord. This physical separation shows that the child is a free human right at birth. Even though the parents are emotionally attached to the child for many years. As a parent we are supposed to provide him with good values that will advance his physical and personality. Sacrificing a child is not an option for the parents.
Story of Ibrahim (key point)
He used awesome reasoning to find The God then we find him acting very irrationally when he tried to sacrifice his son.
The Lesson Every human has the potential to err. Only revelations from The God are free of error. Therefore, when we read posting at this web site or any other places we should keep this lesson in mind.
Recommendation When any of us is putting forward a new concept or a different understanding of a Quraanic verse, the author should provide the potential ways the concept could be disproved. That is exactly what Einstein did. He published his concept and suggested techniques for disproving his theory.
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Peace be upon you Guest,
Peace idolfree1, we are not supposed to dedicate our son (children) towards any action that will cause minor harm let alone sacrificing him. This goes against the fundamental belief of Quraan (free will) and that God is good.
What is harmful about dedicating your children to God?
Therefore, we cannot justify sacrificing a child as The God?s commandment. Your assertion of ?we must dedicate not only our children ?? is simply wrong. You are advocating compulsion which is against Quraanic value.
The physical sacrifice is symbolism. Adn with that statement I think I see the point you are making so let me adjust once more and state that Ibrahim did understand that it was symbolic, and so when they put thier foreheads together, it was a symbol of thier ONENESS of striving in the God's path.
When a child is born the doctor immediately cuts off the umbilical cord. This physical separation shows that the child is a free human right at birth. Even though the parents are emotionally attached to the child for many years. As a parent we are supposed to provide him with good values that will advance his physical and personality. Sacrificing a child is not an option for the parents.
Correct, physical sacrifice is in no way correct, which is why I said "we must dedicate not only our children, but our own lives to the service of Righteousness and spreading the message of Peace"
To "sacrifice" yourself and your child is to sacrifice your time and energy in making sure you instill the correct guidance into your child. Yes, a child is free from birth, but recall that the human is created weak, meaning they are WIDE OPEN(receptive) to programming, so we do noot leave the child in front of the TV for 13 years, we take active part in nourturing that child.
Any difficulty in understanding this should be referred to the following verse for reflection;
(335) When the wife of Imran said "My Lord, I have vowed to You what is in my womb, dedicated, so accept from me, You are the Hearer, the Knower."
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Peace idolfree1, no one is allowed to dedicate another human to the service of The God. An individual must decide for herself/himself if they want comply or not comply with The God?s laws. One can always pray for the others as suggested in 335. What if the dedicated child does not want to service The God? What then? Would you advocate compulsion?
