Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
-
phoenix1 wrote
Say "O mankind, if you are in doubt of my system, then I do not serve those that you serve besides God. But I serve God who takes me, and I have been commanded to be of the believers."that is a wrong trans...methinks...
...it cannot be "takes me"! -)
i will get back to the rest shortly...hopefully...meanwhile let us both verify the trans! -)
peace phoenix1! -)
-
phoenix wrote
Say "O mankind, if you are in doubt of my system, then I do not serve those that you serve besides God. But I serve God who takes me, and I have been commanded to be of the believers."i have already commented about the translation u posted without verifying...it is a mistrans! -)
the quran tells us that we should serve God. Why? because it is in our best interest. We will live a better life if we "serve god."
You serve god by doing good.
i dont understand how ur doing good serves god!
...it maybe...as u say, in ur best interest...but how does it serve god?
can u give me an example of ur doing good and how it served god? -)
And I don't get what you mean by "made our good conditional."
u said "It is for our own good to serve God."
...so u mean it is not to our own good to not serve god...
thence conditional upon "serving" it! -)
Currently, I am not following an invisible all powerful being in the sky who will give me virgins when i die.
I am taking god as the quran describes god. As merciful, gracious, etc. Serving those attributes, those qualities, is serving god. I think there is more to god than that, but I don't know what that is......it (god) also seems to be scheming and plotting..
...how many times do v have the quran talking about it allowing those who disbelieve to thrive in their disbelief...only to seize them when they expected not!
...do u still take god as the quran describes it? -)
So, I'm not following anything blindly. If I never find evidence of god, I will not believe in god.
perhaps u have issues with the divinity of quran itself...hmmm...cool! -)
Because if god intended me to believe in it, then it would've given me proof, no?
when god intends it is a mere "be"...
...proof? what kind of proof? -)
well, those anti islamic websites make some very good points.
ofcourse...who ever called his/her own views to be founded on "very bad points"!
Do some research.
lolz!
lemme see what was the research u did...besides reading and believing what u come across at various places...among them anti-islamic sites! -)
Actually, ask Ayman about his article where he talks about the kaaba.
actually...he can speak for himself...
...if u can do the same...do so by all means! -)
and where do those verses mention the kaaba?
v were talking about facing almasjidalharam...
but u somehow started to talk about facing the "black pagan cube"...thereby giving the impression that
...either u saw them as the same thing...or related...
...or that u simply wanted to show that u get ur ideas from assumptions rather than the quran...(u are yet to show a single verse which says it is a pagan structure!) -)
I didn't get it.
52 O you who believe, do not violate the rites instituted by GOD, nor the Sacred Months, nor the animals to be offered, nor the garlands marking them, nor the people who head for the Sacred Bayt seeking blessings from their Lord and approval. Once you complete the pilgrimage, you may hunt. Do not be provoked into aggression by your hatred of people who once prevented you from going to the Sacred Masjid. You shall cooperate in matters of righteousness and piety; do not cooperate in matters that are sinful and evil. You shall observe GOD. GOD is strict in enforcing retribution.
595 O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka`bah. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.
596 All fish of the sea are made lawful for you to eat. During pilgrimage, this may provide for you during your journey. You shall not hunt throughout the pilgrimage. You shall reverence GOD, before whom you will be summoned.
597 GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Bayt, to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (to the Sacred Masjid), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
...maybe u should start reading the quran! -)
and yes...u havent explained ur understanding of 1736...
...and its relation to the mistranslation u copy-pasted! -)
-
the above are khalifa's trans...i ve edited a bit..so think i ll show what i ve edited n make another (edition)
52 O you who believe, do not violate the rites instituted by GOD, nor the Sacred Months, nor the animals to be offered, nor the garlands marking them, nor the people who head for the Sacred Bayt (edit Shrine to Bayt) seeking blessings from their Lord and approval. Once you complete the pilgrimage, you may hunt. Do not be provoked into aggression by your hatred of people who once prevented you from going to the Sacred Masjid. You shall cooperate in matters of righteousness and piety; do not cooperate in matters that are sinful and evil. You shall observe GOD. GOD is strict in enforcing retribution.
595 O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka`bah. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.
596 All fish of the sea are made lawful for you to eat. During pilgrimage, this may provide for you during your journey. You shall not hunt throughout the pilgrimage. You shall reverence GOD, before whom you will be summoned.
597 GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Bayt (edit asjid to Bayt), to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (edit bracket text (to the Sacred Masjid) removed), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
-
Peace and Greetings
I think that anti islamic websites are more logical than phoenix1. They have proved scientifically that there is no evidence for life after death. Hindus claim that there are seven ressurections. My Question for our logical experts is How do you scientifically prove the resurection described by Quran? What clue or evidence is there from your logical knowledge to justify resurrection by the Quran? Can't there be one 2, 3 or more resurections or possibly no resurection at all?
How do you explain from your humanly logics you feel so proud of ?
-
in anycase...to simply show that the kaaba has immense significance..which was my initial design
595 O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka`bah. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.
597 GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Bayt (edit Masjid to Bayt), to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (edit bracket text (to the Sacred Masjid) removed), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
now put forth ur verse(s) to show that kaaba is a "black pagan cube"! -)
-
Kaba was build and made pilgrimage place during Abraham time.
Now, non of the scriptures or hadiths have any record of God's Messengers (Moses, David, Jesus, Solomon...) ever done the pilgrimage to Mecca.If God's messengers weren't obliged by the "holy city" and Kaaba why should we be??? And they are best example for us.
Any lawyer will get you of the hook from this aligation of criticising Mecca and Kaaba.
and if Mohammad came to a people who never had a messenger before him, what was abraham doing in mecca? hollidays?
-
peace
(this thread has been created because a certain someone said we shouldn't criticize Mecca and the Kaaba)
I only want to give my thoughts on this, and I just want to see the logical defence of Mecca and kaaba.
Ayman presented an argument against the "holyness" of the city of Mecca and I found it very convincing, but that's not what this post is about.
First of all, we don't need face some physical place to serve God. And we don't need to "show" our "love" (how does one love God anyway?) for God by facing Mecca.
And if you think that Mecca is just a symbol for our "unity" then that makes no sense either.
Physical structures mean nothing, piety is not to face ourselves to the east or the west, then why do we need physical places and structures?
I'll say more later. Please offer your thoughts.Salam.
When we are told in The Quran to face Mecca, we are told to be united not to worship the rock there.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
I mean, no where in The Quran are we told to worship the Ka'aba, in fact, idol-worshiping is a ticket to Hellfire, correct?Peace.
-
Peace and greetings,
Those opposing central Masjid cannot prove that the God is not present in the direction of the sacred Masjid so then what they want to really prove ? They want to prove that they have a better direction than every direction where the God is present.
The God is the Lord of the great throne that encompasses the earth and the seven heavens. You can never reach the God's direction by any means whether physical or mental. The God guides towards the straight path of those whom He has blessed. The whole physical realm belongs to the God so He is everywhere, why discard Qibla due to the hatred of your logic as He is also present in that direction as well.Chapter 13
"15.And to God prostrate all who are in the heavens and the Earth, willingly and unwillingly, as do their shadows(realm of thoughts, imaginations) in the morning and the evening."
Even the blasphemous thoughts a disbeliever has about the God, their realm is also prostrating to the God the High the Supreme.
Chapter 1
1.In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
2.Praise be to God, the Lord of the worlds.
3.The Almighty, the Merciful.
4.King of the Day of Judgment.
5.You alone we serve, and You alone we seek for help.
6.Guide us to the straight path.
7.The path of those whom You have blessed, not those who have incurred the wrath, nor the misguided.Chapter 2 verse 142.
"The foolish from amongst the people will Say ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?? Say ?To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.?
The real purpose is the right path which is the actual goal. Whether the God would have chosen the east, west, north or south it would cause no logical fallacy because he is present in every direction so what is so fussy if the God assinged Qibla in direction of sacred mosque. No one in the world could prove that the God is absent from the direction of the sacred mosque. In outer space direction becomes arbitrary because you go out of earth's gravitational field so the Qibla does not apply there. This is a fact that the earth is round so any point on earth could be a focal point. The gravitational effects of earth make it appear flat for those on earth. If the sacred mosque is chosen so you cannot disapprove it by applying allegations of ritualism, holiness and mysticism. You are deliberately trying to attach importance to the physical
particles of the physical structure, which is just criticising for the sake of criticising and not for the sake of logic. If you are not satisfied by explanations for unity gathering or oneness in faith then it is no use trying to explain. Today's world is just isolation, selfishness and ignorance of social interaction. People can visit the whole world through the internet but do they really know about their neighbours or the community in which they are living. Do you have any idea of community gatherings, community centres or you just really know how to think like nerds and loners only. What's the matter with such highly intellectual people. I think a tarditional sunni, shia, christian or a jew can get more love in community than such people who consider such socially isolated logics. -
peace Abrar,
I think that anti islamic websites are more logical than phoenix1. They have proved scientifically that there is no evidence for life after death. Hindus claim that there are seven ressurections. My Question for our logical experts is How do you scientifically prove the resurection described by Quran? What clue or evidence is there from your logical knowledge to justify resurrection by the Quran? Can't there be one 2, 3 or more resurections or possibly no resurection at all?
How do you explain from your humanly logics you feel so proud of ?
I have to have a reason to believe something. Currently, I have no reason to believe that we will be resurrected, maybe except holy scriptures. But that's not reason enough. Unless I have a reason to believe in resurrection, I cannot believe in it.
Our qibla should be our goals. Not some building in mecca. See, it is a FACT that it doesn't help people to look in the (supposed) direction of Mecca. It doesn't help unify people. That's hogwash. Why are all the Muslims so divided if they all face the same structure in mecca when praying?
And we can all see how much Jeruselum unites the Muslims and the Jews. How much love there is between the two because of that place. yeah right.
And relationships are built on interaction and communication. No one is interacting with anyone else while facing a cube. How does that bring people closer together?
Please show me how the unification of the people works.
and where is the actual qibla? because I know that some people think it is in Jeruselum, and they have pretty good argument.It is a verifiable fact that when we focus on our goals, we will achieve them. When we focus on the wrong things, we end up doing the wrong things. Our focus should be on the right things and we should keep it there.
It's that simple. Why do we complicate it by arguing over where the focal point is?and what is "hatred of my logic?" I'm not hating anything. I'm not using emotions to form my beliefs. On the other hand, you have an emotional attachment to Mecca and you cannot let go of it even though your eyesight, hearing, and mind disagree.
-
Peace,
Dear Abrar, please read my article on the scientifc approach to the Afterlife
http//mahjoorquran.blogspot.com/2006/11/scientific-approach-of-afterlife-by.html
There are scientific theories on it that have a lot of evidence. But most atheist scientists find the concept scary, which is why they neglect it immediately without being objective.
Also the concept of Heaven and Hell is misunderstood, see
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,420,0,0,1,0
-
peace thgod -)
i have already commented about the translation u posted without verifying...it is a mistrans! -)
why is it a mistrans?
i dont understand how ur doing good serves god!
We serve God by bringing it to this world. We are spreading God by doing good.
...it (god) also seems to be scheming and plotting..
...how many times do v have the quran talking about it allowing those who disbelieve to thrive in their disbelief...only to seize them when they expected not!
...do u still take god as the quran describes it?
Yes, again, that is part of the description of God. Although I don't think god would be literally scheming and plotting.
perhaps u have issues with the divinity of quran itself...hmmm...cool! -)
yes I do. But there are different variations on "divinity."
v were talking about facing almasjidalharam...
but u somehow started to talk about facing the "black pagan cube"...thereby giving the impression that
...either u saw them as the same thing...or related...
...or that u simply wanted to show that u get ur ideas from assumptions rather than the quran...(u are yet to show a single verse which says it is a pagan structure!) -)
I am talking about the black cube called "the holy kaaba." And my argument is that because god cannot possibly be living in a small cubic house in Mecca, "kaaba" and "masjid al haram" and possibly "mecca" are different things in the quran. If they aren't, then the quran cannot be believed.
My understanding of 1736 is that we should use our tools of perception and reasoning to verify our beliefs.
If I can see with my eyes that this font is black, I cannot believe that it is blue.
And if my mind tells me that 2+2=4, I cannot believe that it =5 just because a book says so. -
597 GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Bayt (edit asjid to Bayt), to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (edit bracket text (to the Sacred Masjid) removed), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
If I am correct in thinking that "bayt" means "house," then are you saying that God lives in a black cubic structure in mecca?
if not, why is it called "the sacred house?" -
595 O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka`bah. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.
597 GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Bayt (edit Masjid to Bayt), to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (edit bracket text (to the Sacred Masjid) removed), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
This only demonstrates that the translator doesn't know what Ka'bah means and hence was not able to translate it. Are we supposed to revere some stones based on the opinion of those who don't even know what "ka'bah" means?
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Abrar,
"The foolish from amongst the people will Say ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?? Say ?To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.?
Go to any sectarian mosque with anyone here who doesn't believe that we have to face a physical direction to face the god and face somewhere other than where everyone is facing. The people there will surely ask you ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on??.
There is a sign in this. The god's book is not a theoretical book. It gives us empirically verifiable truth. Try it and you will see the true meaning of this passage.
Peace,
Ayman
-
-
Peace Damon,
Good to see you back )
Something else to read concerning this topic is Mekka is NOT Bakka by Muhammad Ahmed ( he also translated the quran with his daughter Samira).
I think it is well worth the read.
Interesting work.
I did not support the link he made between the fire of Abraham and the fire of Moses (especially since the fire Abraham was cast in was man-made and it was done at the place where he emigrated from ). Also, I did not support the link he made between the fire of Moses and Mt. Sinai simply because he felt tranquility when he visited the monastary there!
On the other hand, his remark that we should be looking for a mountain that has crumbled/been flattened to find the location where God spoke to Moses is superb (amazing how we all missed something this big especially since everyone knows the story of the mountain and God).
-
Peace and greetings,
Dear Aymen,
You said, "The people there will surely ask you ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on??.
The point is if people were used to east/west/south/north and they are asked to turn west/east/north/south by the God so they have nothing to worry because the God is present in all east/west/north/south directions. It is not the direction which matters, it is in fact the command of the God which really matters because He is present in all directions. The command of the God is the straight path, and please do not ask anyone to prove the reason behind God's command in a mathematical empirical style. I really had a bad time with athiests when I tried to prove The God mathematically.
-
Peace and greetings,
Dear Aymen,
You said, "The people there will surely ask you ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on??.
The point is if people were used to east/west/south/north and they are asked to turn west/east/north/south by the God so they have nothing to worry because the God is present in all east/west/north/south directions. It is not the direction which matters, it is in fact the command of the God which really matters because He is present in all directions. The command of the God is the straight path, and please do not ask anyone to prove the reason behind God's command in a mathematical empirical style. I really had a bad time with athiests when I tried to prove The God mathematically.
Salaams Br. Abrar
Do what is Right; But here is for you another understanding.
Its logical
2142 with respect to 6153 tell you what on earth the STRAIGHT WAY is and it isn?t facing anything but doing certain things.
The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the path which they were on?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to the Way that is straight.
2142???say all for Allah of what we follow and what we do away with .He guideth whom He will to the WAY STRAIGHT.
And the ayah?s 6150-153 give the list of the things for you to do to be on the STRAIGHT WAY.
And 2153 specifically says doing these things is the STRAIGHT WAY.
Verily, this is My STRAIGHT WAY follow it follow not (other) paths they will scatter you about from His (great) path thus doth He command you. that ye may be righteous.
And May God Bless you with the STRAIGHT WAY.
-
phoenix1 wrote
why is it a mistrans?the verse says"...yatawaffakum..."
...it is kum/you (plural)...not me! -)
We serve God by bringing it to this world. We are spreading God by doing good.
serve it by brining it to, and spreading it, in the world?
...u perhaps see logic in what u are saying! -)
Yes, again, that is part of the description of God. Although I don't think god would be literally scheming and plotting.
cool! -)
yes I do. But there are different variations on "divinity."
?
I am talking about the black cube called "the holy kaaba." And my argument is that because god cannot possibly be living in a small cubic house in Mecca, "kaaba" and "masjid al haram" and possibly "mecca" are different things in the quran. If they aren't, then the quran cannot be believed.
according to the quran....al kaaba is albayt alharam
...there are many who lend assumptions to the words of quran...and fail to produce verses when asked to prove their claims...
...v are unconcerned about them! -)
who told u god "lives" in the kaaba/albayt alharam?
My understanding of 1736 is that we should use our tools of perception and reasoning to verify our beliefs.
If I can see with my eyes that this font is black, I cannot believe that it is blue.
And if my mind tells me that 2+2=4, I cannot believe that it =5 just because a book says so.fair enough...but u are talking about maths and physical senses...
...how will u apply it to the text...
...there are many who will tell u a lot of stuff based on simply assumptions...and their whims...
...like the kaaba for example...
...i gave verses which show the significance of the kaaba...can u show me a verse which shows it is a pagan structure? -)
not a snub...but just curious...what do u think about 1736 and the mistrans verse u pasted? should u have verified? -)
If I am correct in thinking that "bayt" means "house," then are you saying that God lives in a black cubic structure in mecca?
i dont understand the logic there...why does the word "bayt" mean god should live in it? -)
if not, why is it called "the sacred house?"
why...what's "wrong" with albayt alharam? -)
to avoid confusion...are u challenging whether god said that (to face almasjidalharam)...or are u disputing almasjidalharam's being a physical strcuture? -)
peace phoenix1! -)
-
The passage clearly says "wherever you may be". This is completely ignored by those who advocate Mecca or any physical "temple" to face. Can someone tell us how to face a physical place wherever we are?
Facing Restricted Temple (a physical place) like washing to purify oneself is symbolic as in dry absolution or when direction uncertain, in outer space, etc. most important being the spiritual intent to obey God?
2177
Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and he honours the affirmation, and he contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.It is immaterial where the court is located or if there is even a physical building.
True and it is ?material? if attacked to fight and kill them in court! 2191
Sanctuary is symbolic of "God's House? and first dedicated as such.
2125 And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take the site of Abraham in affirmation. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who kneel and prostrate."
2126 And Abraham said "My Lord, make this town secure, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day." He said "As for he who rejects, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire, what a miserable destiny!"
2127 And as Abraham raised the foundations for the Sanctuary with Ishmael "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."
Peace
