Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
-
phoenix1 wrote
cool. thanks for clarifying that. I'll have to think about that.no need for thanks...still...anytime! -)
Yes, as I see it, we are God's servants. We are making this world more "godly" by doing good things. that's what I meant.
so how does that serve god? -)
does the god need u to make the world godly? -)
I don't think God wrote or dictated the quran.
then who wrote or dictated the quran? -)
I do think that the truth is from god.
what do u mean by "the truth is from god"? -)
where does god live and how does he send this truth? -)
So if the quran is true, then it would be from god.
do u know everything that exists?
do u know the truth of all things?
if yes...then u should know whether or not quran is not true...
if no...then how will ur limited vision decide the entirety of a matter? -)
What I don't know is whether the quran is true or not.
so again...do u know what truth is...that u may judge quran by it? -)
Who's house is it, then?
whose masjid is almasjid alharam?
I understand that kaaba (does kaaba mean "base?"
from what i have gathered, a cube is called "mukaab"...
al kaaba is roughly a cubic structure...a cuboid...and i would think "al kaaba" is "the cube"...or perhaps more likely "the cuboid"! -)
is bayt al haram,
yes...this physical structure is called albayt alharam! -)
but that doesn't mean the quran is talking about a cubic shrine in Mecca.
why does it not mean?
That is an assumption based on sectarian beliefs.
that is an assumption based on assumptions....which u have to prove! -)
anybody can keep talking...based on assumptions...but at some point there has to be some evidence...
...i have talked with peepz about albayt being a physical structure....and they would forward their assumptions...but when i would ask them to support those assumptions with the quran...all i would get were more assumptions and false analogies...
...i hope u wont go the same way! -)
traditionalists believe moses and muhammad are prophets of god...so is this belief based on traditionalist beliefs?
traditionalists refuse that christ was killed on the cross...so is this belief based on traditionalist beliefs?
...indeed not...these are perfectly quranic beliefs...
likewise that the kaaba is a physical structure is a perfectly quranic belief!
...just because u or somebody else is averse to it doesnt mean it is not! -)
if u can prove that it is based on traditions and not quran...and refute it using the quran (not assumptions and false analogies)...i invite u to do so! -)
I just gave you examples. It's not meant for maths or physics classes only. If I read something in the quran, and I cannot verify it, then there are two possibilities
- the quran doesn't say that.
- the quran is false.
ok...how do u verify whether or not christ was killed on the cross? -)
The quran's word is not categorical or incontrovertible.It is open to examination and criticism.
indeed examine it all u want and can...
...but if v are to dispute the authenticity of the text..then it is futile to seek an understanding based on the quran! -)
Providing verses for something isn't the same as providing proof. Unless you can prove that those verses are true.
cool...but proving quran to be "the truth" is not my intention here...i wrongly assumed v agree that the verses are from god and all that remains is the interpretation thereof!
There is no verse that says "kaaba is a pagan structure"
because the quran is explicit about its significance...so it has nothing to do with pagans! -)
because the kaaba is not a structure at all.
then what is the kaaba? -)
both! -)
the first contention is perhaps unlikely to be helped at the moment....
as for the second
51 O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals, with the exceptions named But animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb for Allah doth command according to His will and plan.
52 O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the symbols of Allah, nor of the sacred month, nor of the animals brought for sacrifice, nor the garlands that mark out such animals, nor the people resorting to the sacred house, seeking of the bounty and good pleasure of their Lord. But when ye are clear of the sacred precincts and of pilgrim garb, ye may hunt and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour fear Allah for Allah is strict in punishment.
53 Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
the verses talk about the physical/material things...if u can justify why the masjid and the bayt are not physical but abstract....do so...
...but i am not interested in assumptions...rather what the quran says! -)
so bring forth ur understanding based on quran! -)
peace phoenix1! -)
-
Peace and greetings,
Dear Phoenix1,
I said that the God cannot be defined by any form whether physical, imaginary, time space or any other realm you can think of. No vision can reach the God but every vision is within the reach of the God.
Chapter 6 verse 103
"The eyesight cannot reach Him, yet He can reach all eyesight; and He is the Subtle, the Expert.'
Chapter 7
"And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do."
Chapter 112, verse 4
?And there is none comaprable to Him.?
Chapter 42 verse 11
"Initiator of the heavens and the Earth. He created for you from among yourselves mates, and also mates for the livestock so they may multiply. There is nothing like unto Him. He is the Hearer, the Seer."
Chapter 30 verse 27
"And He is the One who initiates the creation, then He repeats it, and this is easy for Him. And to Him is the highest example in the heavens and the Earth. And He is the Noble, the Wise."
-
Peace,
Peace Dear Brothers,
Still I did not see a verse which says that God is everywhere.
Can you please quote a verse which says that God is everywhere.Surat # 10 Yunis Ayah # 61
(61
In whatever business thou mayest be, and whatever portion thou mayest be reciting from the Qur'an,- and whatever deed ye (mankind) may be doing,- We are witnesses thereof when ye are deeply engrossed therein. Nor is hidden from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven. And not the least and not the greatest of these things but are recorded in a clear record.
Translation from
http//www.openburhan.com/ob_main_frame.html -
Peace all,
What I cannot understand is why some readers keep discussing "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" and "God being everywhere" when the thread is about "mecca" and "kaaba". "Mecca" and "kaaba" as per al-qur'aan have NOTHING to do with "qibla" and "almasjid alharam"...... and "bayt alharam" is NOT synonymous with "almasjid alharam". It would be great if readers can keep focused on the topics of this thread as that will eliminate some chaos and make the discussion more orderly. Maybe someone can start a separate thread about "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" instead of mixing them in this thread.
-
Peace Tanveer,
Peace all,
What I cannot understand is why some readers keep discussing "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" and "God being everywhere" when the thread is about "mecca" and "kaaba". "Mecca" and "kaaba" as per al-qur'aan have NOTHING to do with "qibla" and "almasjid alharam"...... and "bayt alharam" is NOT synonymous with "almasjid alharam". It would be great if readers can keep focused on the topics of this thread as that will eliminate some chaos and make the discussion more orderly. Maybe someone can start a separate thread about "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" instead of mixing them in this thread.I did not follow this thread from the beginning. I only saw the last post of Warner and thought of responding to it. I know that you are not addressing your post to me in particular but you are right.
-
Peace Taj
Thank you for the verse.
But this verse does not say that God is everywhere.
Peace Taj
Mecca , Masjidul Haram , Kaaba and Quibla are inter related either through the Quraan or todays religious practices of 99% of muslims. Quraan says the Qibla is towards the sacred mosque and some take it to mean the mosque in Mecca.
I do not see the reason for your objection, why these subjects should not be discussed together.
-
tanveer wrote
What I cannot understand is why some readers keep discussing "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" and "God being everywhere" when the thread is about "mecca" and "kaaba".this thread is about facing a particular direction or a physical structure...
...and the closest any verse comes to this is the 1 talking about "almasjid alharam"! -)
and about quran saying god is everywhere...among other things...
...so things are under control...more or less! -)
read the first 2 posts of phoenix1 to get a better idea of what the thread is about! -)
"Mecca" and "kaaba" as per al-qur'aan have NOTHING to do with "qibla" and "almasjid alharam"......
ur opinion has been noted! -)
and "bayt alharam" is NOT synonymous with "almasjid alharam". It would be great if readers can keep focused on the topics of this thread as that will eliminate some chaos and make the discussion more orderly. Maybe someone can start a separate thread about "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" instead of mixing them in this thread
this thread was started by phoenix1 to discuss what he wants! -)
....if u want something else discussed..u can start the proposed new thread! -)
-
We have seen/understood your face turning around in the sky, so We will turn/enable/appoint you a direction you accept/approve it, so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Respected/Sacred and wherever you were so turn your faces towards it, and that those who were given The Book they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and that God is not with neglecting/disregarding about what they make/do
And from where you got out so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred, and that it is the truth from your Lord, and that God (is) not with ignoring/disregarding about what you are making/doing.
And that stand/keep up your face to the religion (as) a submitter/Unifier of God, and do
not be from the sharers/takers of partners (with God).So keep up your face to the religion, (as) a submitter/Moslem/Unifier of God, God's nature/manner/religion which He created/originated the people on it, (there is) no replacement/substitution to God's creation, that (is) the religion the straight/valuable, and but most of the people do not know.
So keep up your face to the religion, the straight/valuable, from before that a day/time comes, (there is) no return to it from God, (on) that day they declare openly/separate
-
"Obeying the god" is the same thing everyone who venerates some stones or a cross claim.
Peace Ayman,
Christians are not told to pitch their crosses and churches but to cease and desist?
573 Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is a trinity!" There is no god but One god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.
Read 2177 and tell me where in it is evidence that the god is asking us to face a physical object?
Many other verses tell us and per 2177 we face in direction to the best of our knowledge ? it?s inner intent which matters!
Why do you assume that the god is primarily concerned with the superficial physical building, while anyone with any intelligence is concerned about the deeper function of the court?
Anyone with intelligence can see that physical Temples/Mosques are also necessary.
1911 So he went out amongst his people from the temple enclosure, and he indicated to them that they should glorify Him at dawn and dusk.
Were not the above and countless others mentioned ?physical? buildings?
Do you propose knocking down all Mosques including Kaba?
Where should people gather and pray ? in parking lots?
Which way should people face during prayer?
What about the many verses to perform hajj; where should people go?
Peace
-
peace thegod -)
then who wrote or dictated the quran? -)
I don't know.
what do u mean by "the truth is from god"? -)
where does god live and how does he send this truth? -)
The truth leads us to god, falsehood leads us away. And I think there's a verse that says that. I'll try to find it for ya.
do u know everything that exists?
No. What does that have to do with anything?
do u know the truth of all things?
I know what truth is.
if yes...then u should know whether or not quran is not true...
Yes. But I don't understand parts of the quran. So I can't possibly verify it yet.
if no...then how will ur limited vision decide the entirety of a matter? -)
Limited vision? my vision is not limited.
You are making it too complicated.
I read something in a book (hypothesis), I go and verify it, try to do what it says (testing), and I decide whether the hypothesis is true or not. If it is true, I follow it. If it is not, I don't. It is called the scientific method and it works very well. Mankind has made a lot of progress following those steps.
What you are doing is believing Aristotle's idea that heavier objects fall faster. I am doing what Galileo did and verifying that conjecture of himself. And guess what, I have found that it is not true.whose masjid is almasjid alharam?
You should ask that question to yourself. I'm not the one saying it is a mosque. So, who lives in the kaaba? whose house is it? A house is something someone lives in.
from what i have gathered, a cube is called "mukaab"...
al kaaba is roughly a cubic structure...a cuboid...and i would think "al kaaba" is "the cube"...or perhaps more likely "the cuboid"! -)
why don't you answer my questoin. Does "kaaba" mean "base?"
why does it not mean?
It could mean that. But that would make the quran wrong. But there is a better explanation of that verse which Ayman has given us.
In the end, I am not giving you assumptions as you keep saying. I am not concerned about what the quran says at the moment, because it is full of so many mistranslations and what not.
So, my question is, can you prove to me that your interpretation of the quran is correct? that God really wants us to face a cube? that somehow it helps us? please show me how....but if v are to dispute the authenticity of the text..then it is futile to seek an understanding based on the quran! -)
what is the authenticity? if the quran is true, we can use it. If it is not true, we should not use it. It is that simple.
You think that the quran tells us to face mecca during prayer. you have to prove that that is true. -
Peace Alen,
Sisters, brothers, we should not be arguing about this.
Kaaba is just a direction towards which we pray, that's all.
We just pray towards it, no one here worships it.Please do not say something as a fact of islam when it is unsupported by al-qur'aan because then it becomes inventing a lie against God. Where in al-qur'aan does God ask us to face "kaaba" ? By facing it without authority from God becomes setting up partners with God cuz then one is following someone else other than God who told one to face it.
-
Peace and greetings,
Dear Tanveer,
What authority do those people opposing physical directions have ? How would anyone trust their logically invented meanings about Qibla, mosque, masjid alharam , bekka, kaba. Can these people verify mathematically and physically why Quran is the word of the God. You and I did not witness the revelation of the Quran. No one is supposed to oppose anything without knowledge or keep silent if their knowledge is not sufficient. I ask those opposing the physical meanings to bring forth their archaeological proofs because we do not possess a video film of how prophet muhammad really practiced. I oppose sunni, shia and any other religion upto the point of logic and not beyond that. I or anyone is in no position to invent a completely upgraded Quran translation and possibly invent a remarkable Islam. Why are those opposing studying the Quran even ? Are'nt sunnis, shias supposed to have forgotten and mistranslated the Quran completely ? Do' nt you learn arabic meanings of Quran from them or can invent your own ? I consider it to be unfair to go beyond the rejection of Hadees and glorification of muhammad in practicing prejudice against shias and sunnis. If a person does a mistake that does not mean he/she is disqualified from life compeletely.
-
Peace Nun de plume,
Christians are not told to pitch their crosses and churches but to cease and desist?
573 Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is a trinity!" There is no god but One god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.The pagan symbol of the cross (like the pagan symbol of the cuboid) predates the Trinity. For example, it was used by ancient egyptians (the cuboid was used by the Nabataeans as well as the Greeks). What difference does it make if you venerate a cross or a cube or any geometrical shape? If the Kaaba was built in the shape of a cross, would it make a difference? If Christians hanged cubes around their necks, what difference would it make? Nothing. It is a matter of principle that venerating objects in the name of the god is wrong. Of course, you seem to think that "your" objects are special and are different than the objects of the others. But this is what they all think.
Many other verses tell us and per 2177 we face in direction to the best of our knowledge ? it?s inner intent which matters!
There is nothing in 2177 that says that we need to face a particular physical direction when praying to the god. Quite the opposite, we can see from 2177 that physical direction is not important.
Anyone with intelligence can see that physical Temples/Mosques are also necessary.
How is it necessary. Why can't any building accomplish the same purpose? What do you think is the purpose of a Temple/Mosque?
1911 So he went out amongst his people from the temple enclosure, and he indicated to them that they should glorify Him at dawn and dusk.
The word "temple" or "temple enclosure" doesn't occur in 1911. The Arabic word "mi7rab" means "private place". We hear in the story of Dawood that two opponents climbed the fence into the "mi7rab". So the "mi7rab" is any private area of the home such as a room or an area of the yard surrounded by a fence.
Were not the above and countless others mentioned ?physical? buildings?
The physical building or place was not the main focus of the story. It is any private place.
Do you propose knocking down all Mosques including Kaba?
I propose to not focus on the physical building and instead build our insitutions on forethought ("taqwa". Do you think that "taqwa" is physical brick and mortar? See 9108.
If people had "taqwa" then they wouldn't venerate a stone cube that they named Kaaba and the issue would resolve itself.
Where should people gather and pray ? in parking lots?
People can gather anywhere they want. The issue is not to make the place important. I would rather gather with logical people in a parking lot and cooperate with them on useful things than gather with some foolish people in a building with a golden dome or a venerated cube. By calling a building a Mosque, Church or Temple this doesn't suddenly make the people who enter it wise.
Which way should people face during prayer?
The god is closer to you than the jugular vein. You don't need to face a certain direction to pray to him.
What about the many verses to perform hajj; where should people go?
- And when we assigned to Ibrahim the house's location THAT DO NOT PARTNER WITH ME A THING, and cleanse my house for the passers by, and the remaining, and the humbly hearing and obeying.
The god clearly tells us the location of the house in 2226. It is where people do not partner with him a thing (a cube, a cross, a dead prophet, a cow, a black stone, a saint, etc.).
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Abrar,
What authority do those people opposing physical directions have ? How would anyone trust their logically invented meanings about Qibla, mosque, masjid alharam , bekka, kaba. Can these people verify mathematically and physically why Quran is the word of the God. You and I did not witness the revelation of the Quran. No one is supposed to oppose anything without knowledge or keep silent if their knowledge is not sufficient. I ask those opposing the physical meanings to bring forth their archaeological proofs because we do not possess a video film of how prophet muhammad really practiced. I oppose sunni, shia and any other religion upto the point of logic and not beyond that. I or anyone is in no position to invent a completely upgraded Quran translation and possibly invent a remarkable Islam. Why are those opposing studying the Quran even ? Are'nt sunnis, shias supposed to have forgotten and mistranslated the Quran completely ? Do' nt you learn arabic meanings of Quran from them or can invent your own ? I consider it to be unfair to go beyond the rejection of Hadees and glorification of muhammad in practicing prejudice against shias and sunnis. If a person does a mistake that does not mean he/she is disqualified from life compeletely.
Your comment is COMPLETELY irrelevant to what I said. I am not trying to invent something new. I was asking were in al-qur'aan does God ask us to face "kaaba" ?
-
Peace and greetings,
Dear Aymen,
It is a clear fact that everything that exists is glorifying God all the time and the God is present everywhere. If a person has a problem of idolising any object than that person is of weak faith. Qibla is for the sake of showing unity and descipline. When I know that the God is present everywhere why would ever get worried when i am not idolising any direction. I cannot spin myself all the time to seek the God. Practically i can face only one direction at a single time, so if people at communitry gatherings at temples follow the Qibla, would i tell them to spin and rotate constantly to show their seeking of the God. Whichever direction is the Qibla it seems practical, but constant spinning and rotating is not at all practical. What's the fuss all about when the God is niether absent from the direction of the Qibla nor from the other directions.
-
What's the fuss all about when the God is niether absent from the direction of the Qibla nor from the other directions.
Z Could it be that in your facing an object for unification purposes you're setting up a partner(s) with the god.
Surely I would think it would be more wise for one to unify with others under the beneficial concepts of there being "no god, but the god", providing for the betterment of society, and things of similar nature, rather than things known to be of a pagan/superficial nature.
Peace