Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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Those who think that facing Qibla is a pagan concept have a misconception about the presence of the God. What if you say that all directions are pagan concepts so the Quranic ayat which says that the God is present evrywhere may seem to you as a pagan insertion. Wherever you turn you face God, even if people are facing Qibla they are facing the God. Now if you have a problem why did the God chose a direction then why do'nt you have a problem that the God did not punish satan instantly and set him free ? It is a trial for those who have disease in thier hearts.
Z You must remember, your "qibla" is a rock/cube building that's known to have emanated from Pagan origins.
And regarding your arguement wherein you try to illogically equivocate "all directions" as being pagan, the fact of the matter is, not all directions are pagan, for one direction is consistent with the concept of Monotheism, while the other direction of venerating a building or rock contradicts Monotheism and leaves one with the concept of polytheism.
6136 And they made for God a portion of what He provided them of crops and the livestock; they said "This is for God," by their claims, "And this is for our partners." So what was for their partners did not reach God, and what was for God, it reached their partners! Miserable is how they judged.
Peace
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Peace Warner,
The Quraan does not say God is everywhere and neither does it say God is in a house.
The concept of "presence" as we see it from our limited human prespective is very limited. What does being "somewhere" mean? Are you somewhere when you are occupying some area? or is it more than that? We are merely like words on a sheet of paper in a book and the ink we were written with occupies a certain 2D space on that paper. We cannot compare our "presence" to that of the author who is present on a level that we can't imagine. This is just my poor humble analogy. The reality is much more amazing. The god is closer to each one of 6 billion people than the jugular vein at the same time.
Anywhere partners are not set up with the god is a house of the god.
The Quraan says take the Sacred mosque/Masjidul Haram as the Qibla and it does not say to take the Kaaba as the Qiblah . Neither does it say Sacred mosque and Kaaba are same.
There were no "mosques" in pre-quranic times and the great reading didn't invent a new Arabic word.
Also I guess Baitullah /House of Allah can mean a sanctuary / sacred area and not a physical house.
Again, according to 2226, anywhere partners are not set up with the god is a house of the god.
Peace Ayman
Does the Quraan say facing the sacred mosque mean facing God or in the direction of God.No it doesn't say any of that and neither do I. It is sectarians who claim such.
It is just a direction.
No, it is not "just a direction". It is what differentiates those who follow the messenger from the hypocrites. This cannot be accomplished by imagining to face any shrine.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman
Appreciate your patience and answers to my comments.
I understand or try to understand the meanings of the term ?presence?. But still I have not seen a verse which says God is present everywhere. Can you please quote the verse?
Also I meant mosque with the same meaning as temple. So Masjid ul Haram to me can mean Sacred Temple.Following verse is an example.
17 7
Yusuf Ali If ye did well ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil (ye did it) against yourselves; so when the second of the warnings came to pass (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces and to enter your Temple as they had entered if before and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.In ahsantum ahsantum li anfusikum, wa in asa'tum falaha_, fa iza_ ja_'a wa'dul a_khirati liyasu_'u wuju_hakum wa liyadkhulul masjida kama_ dakhalu_hu awwala marratiw wa liyutabbiru_ ma_ 'alau tatbira_(n).
Also what is your opinion on these 2 verses?
22 40
Yusuf Ali (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right (for no cause) except that they say "Our Lord is Allah." Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another there would surely have been pulled down monasteries churches synagogues and mosques in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid His (cause); for verily Allah is Full of Strength Exalted in Might (Able to enforce His Will).Nil lazina ukhriju_ min diya_rihim bigairi haq qin il la_ ay yaqu_lu_ rab bunal la_h wa laula_ daf'ul la_hin na_sa ba'dahum biba'dil lahud dimat sawa_mi'u wa biya'uw wa salawa_tuw wa masa_jidu yuzkaru fihas mul la_hi katsira_ wa layanshuran nal la_hu may yansuruh in nal la_ha laqawiy yun 'aziz
18 21
Yusuf Ali Thus did We make their case known to the people that they might know that the promise of Allah is true and that there can be no doubt about the Hour of Judgment. Behold they dispute among themselves as to their affair. (Some) said "Construct a building over them" their Lord knows best about them those who prevailed over their affair said "Let us surely build a place of worship over them."Wa kaza_lika a'sarna_ 'alaihim liya'lamu_ anna wa'dalla_hi haqquw wa annas sa_'ata la_ raiba fiha_, iz yatana_za'u_na bainahum amrahum faqa_lu-bnu_ 'alaihim bunya_na_(n), rabbuhum a'lamu bihim, qa_lal lazina galabu_ 'ala_ amrihim lanattakhizanna 'alaihim masjida_(n).
Also our understanding of Sacred Mosque and Kaaba differ. Following link explains my opinion on the subject. Please read and comment if time permits.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12683.msg103528#msg103528
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Peace Taj
Thank you for the verse.
But this verse does not say that God is everywhere.
Of course it does not
sounds like a desperate case to me D
Cheers
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Peace warner,
After reading this thread, I'm kinda confused.
But still I have not seen a verse which says God is present everywhere.
Are you saying that after reading the quran and all the verses, you think God is not present everywhere? Are the verses people quoted in this thread alone, giving you the idea somehow that God is not present everywhere? Please clarify?
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Peace Alen,
Please do not say something as a fact of islam when it is unsupported by al-qur'aan because then it becomes inventing a lie against God. Where in al-qur'aan does God ask us to face "kaaba" ? By facing it without authority from God becomes setting up partners with God cuz then one is following someone else other than God who told one to face it.
Salam mate
isn't 597 clearly telling us that Al Kabba qas mad Al bayt Al haram?
now the question is, do you oppose that the Al Bayt Al Haram to be the same as Al Masjid Al Haram?
Salam
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Do you believe God isn't omnipresent?
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phoenix1 wrote
I don't know.noted! -)
The truth leads us to god, falsehood leads us away.
hmmm..i ll think over this 1! -)
meanwhile..leads us to god and away from god...
..where is god? -)
And I think there's a verse that says that. I'll try to find it for ya.
cool! -)
No. What does that have to do with anything?
with ur calling quran's truth being dependent upon ur personal verification!
I know what truth is.
what is it? -)
Yes. But I don't understand parts of the quran. So I can't possibly verify it yet.
so what u cannot "verify" is not true?
Limited vision? my vision is not limited.
i said if no...but u do claim to know the truth of all things...so yes...if that be the case ur vision encopmasses all things! -)
You are making it too complicated.
it is...life is complicated...reality is complicated....mathematics is complicated...perception is complicated! -)
I read something in a book (hypothesis), I go and verify it, try to do what it says (testing), and I decide whether the hypothesis is true or not.
quran says christ was not killed on the cross test it and tell me ur result! -)
If it is true, I follow it. If it is not, I don't. It is called the scientific method and it works very well. Mankind has made a lot of progress following those steps.
i will comment after u give me the result of ur test! -)
What you are doing is believing Aristotle's idea that heavier objects fall faster. I am doing what Galileo did and verifying that conjecture of himself.
so have u done what galileo did? gone up a tower and thrown down 2 different weights...or whatever he did? -)
go to the top of a tower on a windy day..and throw a feather and a blob of iron....and tell us what u observed! -)
And guess what, I have found that it is not true.
what? aristotle's belief? -)
again...u gave very convenient examples of black/blue font and of 2 + 2 = 4..
...but if u are color blind...u will have a hard time telling some colors from other...like blue/green...so? -)
You should ask that question to yourself. I'm not the one saying it is a mosque.
So, who lives in the kaaba? whose house is it?
u have heard of bayt of allah...
...tell me what u think about it! -)
A house is something someone lives in.
so u agree bayt is a physical strcuture....nice! -)
why don't you answer my questoin. Does "kaaba" mean "base?"
i answered u from a part of my knowledge...what "al kaaba" translates as!
as for ur question...i havent heard of it....
...if u have...u can tell me more about it! -)
It could mean that.
yeah! -)
But that would make the quran wrong. But there is a better explanation of that verse which Ayman has given us.
ur opinion does not make the quran wrong! -)
...i have repeatedly asked u to provide verses/proof...so if u have anything to offer from the quran...or any proof (which can be verified as easy as 2 + 2 = 4..like u want)....if not, then u are still living off assumptions! -)
In the end, I am not giving you assumptions as you keep saying.
but u are...all of us do..to a degree....i think..! -)
...and ur saying it is a pagan structure is an assumption...cuz u have not provided anything to prove it!
u dont know who authored the quran...
...so u cant possibly have been told by the author that al kaaba is not a physical structure! -)
u only told what many non-muslims have repeated over the years...and as i tried to show in that example...it remains their assumption! -)
but v have the book...however...u refuse to acknowledge clear verses of the book! -)
I am not concerned about what the quran says at the moment, because it is full of so many mistranslations and what not.
if u are not concerned about the quran...why are u concerned about that verse? it is from the quran...isnt it? -)
So, my question is, can you prove to me that your interpretation of the quran is correct?
i gave u verses from quran (51-3)...which shows that god is talking about physical things...
...however, u claim that bayt and masjid are abstract...if u can explain why...do so! -)
that God really wants us to face a cube?
the verse talks about almasjid alharam...
...i showed the significance of kaaba cuz u claimed it was a black pagan cube...(which u still have not established) -)
that somehow it helps us? please show me how.
u obey god for ur own good...remember?...maybe that's how it helps u -)
what is the authenticity? if the quran is true, we can use it. If it is not true, we should not use it. It is that simple.
yes...but u cannot seek to understand 1 verse...and disregard other verses which can help in its understanding...citing the reason as its being full of what nots! -)
You think that the quran tells us to face mecca during prayer. you have to prove that that is true.
i think that the almasjid alharam in the verse is a specific physical structure...
i am not forcing it upon anybody...nor writing stuff and making claims that i should prove it...
...still i gave u verses from the quran...which u refuse to acknowledge for ur perceived lack of authenticity! -)
so i have given u the verses from quran...if u do not want to acknowledge the quran and believe in what u want....cool! -)
peace phoenix1! -)
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Peace,
2115 To God belongs the East and the West. Wherever you turn the presence of God is everywhere
All-pervading is He and All-knowing.The presence of Allah is EVERYWHERE, to where do you limit this everywhere?
4126 Unto Allah belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Allah ever surroundeth all things.
Muhit=Surrounds =Allah ever surroundeth all things
To where do you limit the term 'ALL things'? To only inanimate objects? To only your pc? Is a molecule a thing? Belongs it to ALL things?
To where do you limit ALL things and EVERYWHERE?
5016 We created the human, and we know what he whispers to himself. We are closer to him than his jugular VEIN.
Close enough?
226 That is so for God is the undeniable Reality. It is He who brings the dead to life, for He has the power over every thing.
So if He is the undeniable Reality, what are you then?
6102-103 This is God, your Lord; there is no god but He, the Creator of all things. So pay homage to Him, for He takes care of everything. No eyes can penetrate Him, but He penetrates all eyes, and He knows all the mysteries, for He is All-knowing.
Maybe no eyes can penetrate Him as your eyes are also part of His Energy? Because He has no form Himself?
11 With the Glorious Name of Allah, the Source of Instant and Eternal Beneficence and Mercy Who embraces the entire Universe in His fold, nourishing and taking care of all things for what they are meant to be, just as a mother's womb nourishes the embryo without any returns.
'Rahma' is connected with the word 'Rihum' meaning womb. Allah compares Himself with a womb, nourishing us. EMBRACING us.
The evidence is very clear in my eyes.....We are made out of Allah's Energy. He is
5016 We created the human, and we know what he whispers to himself. We are closer to him than his jugular VEIN.
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Also recommend to read this
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,418,0,0,1,0
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Wow, thanks Arnold. Great post. I was having a hard time understanding why people wouldn't think God is omnipresent as it's so clearly mentioned enough to be a basic.
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Peace and greetings,
Point to note is that Allah himself is not part of the Energy. Allah is the Creator of all energy and matter. Allah creates matter and energy by his "be" command out of nowhere. Allah can perish every energy and matter just by His "be" command and He is no need of any matter or energy. Allah is omnipresent which means that He is personaly seeing and witnessing evrything but he is established on the Throne that encompasses the Earth and seven heavens which is the edge of the universe.
Arnold your mentioned 11 reference to Quran cannot be verified. Please tell me the right verse as I have never read such a verse as that.
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11 With the Glorious Name of Allah, the Source of Instant and Eternal Beneficence and Mercy Who embraces the entire Universe in His fold, nourishing and taking care of all things for what they are meant to be, just as a mother's womb nourishes the embryo without any returns.
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Peace,
Yes. Abrar, energy and all matter is a creation of Allah. But it all comes forth of Allah. You say 'edge of the Universe', which verse says that? No verse. The concept of heaven being there somewhere is non-Quranic. Allah says clearly He surrounds ALL things. He just not only sees them, He surrounds them. Whereever you look, His Presence is there. As for 11, the 'Rahma' in Rahman and Raheem gives this meaning. The normal translation as 'merciful' is very wrong and misses completely the Arabic meaning of Mercy.
Please see
http//ourbeacon.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Arnold,
The God is eatablished on the throne which encompasses the earth and the heaven(universe)
Chapter 2 verse 255
"God, there is no god but He, the Living, the Sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in heavens and in the Earth. Who will intercede with Him except by His leave? He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes. His throne encompasses all of the heavens and the Earth and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the Great.'
Chapter 7 verse 54
'Your Lord is God who created the heavens and Earth in six days, then He settled upon the throne. The night runs from the day, which seeks it continually; and the sun and the moon and the stars are all subjected by His command; to Him is the creation and the command. Glory be to God, the Lord of the worlds."
The throne is at the edge of the universe.Chapter 53 verse 7 to 9
"7.While he was at the highest horizon.
8.Then he drew nearer by moving down.
9.Until he became as near as two bow-lengths or nearer."I think if you have a problem with the understanding of the universe then visit the following link to find out what NASA says about the universe.
http//map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101shape.html
Is the Universe Infinite?
The shape of the universe is determined by a struggle between the momentum of expansion and the pull of gravity. The rate of expansion is expressed by the Hubble Constant, Ho, while the strength of gravity depends on the density and pressure of the matter in the universe. If the pressure of the matter is low, as is the case with most forms of matter we know of, then the fate of the universe is governed by the density. If the density of the universe is less than the "critical density" which is proportional to the square of the Hubble constant, then the universe will expand forever. If the density of the universe is greater than the "critical density", then gravity will eventually win and the universe will collapse back on itself, the so called "Big Crunch". However, the results of the WMAP mission and observations of distant supernova have suggested that the expansion of the universe is actually accelerating which implies the existence of a form of matter with a strong negative pressure, such as the cosmological constant. This strange form of matter is also sometimes referred to as the "dark energy". If dark energy in fact plays a significant role in the evolution of the universe, then in all likelihood the universe will continue to expand forever.
Geometry of the Universe
The density of the universe also determines its geometry. If the density of the universe exceeds the critical density, then the geometry of space is closed and positively curved like the surface of a sphere. This implies that initially parallel photon paths converge slowly, eventually cross, and return back to their starting point (if the universe lasts long enough). If the density of the universe is less than the critical density, then the geometry of space is open, negatively curved like the surface of a saddle. If the density of the universe exactly equals the critical density, then the geometry of the universe is flat like a sheet of paper. Thus, there is a direct link between the geometry of the universe and its fate.The simplest version of the inflationary theory, an extension of the Big Bang theory, predicts that the density of the universe is very close to the critical density, and that the geometry of the universe is flat, like a sheet of paper. That is the result confirmed by the WMAP science.
Measurements from WMAP
The WMAP spacecraft can measure the basic parameters of the Big Bang theory including the geometry of the universe. If the universe were open, the brightest microwave background fluctuations (or "spots" would be about half a degree across. If the universe were flat, the spots would be about 1 degree across. While if the universe were closed, the brightest spots would be about 1.5 degrees across.
Recent measurements (c. 2001) by a number of ground-based and balloon-based experiments, including MAT/TOCO, Boomerang, Maxima, and DASI, have shown that the brightest spots are about 1 degree across. Thus the universe was known to be flat to within about 15% accuracy prior to the WMAP results. WMAP has confirmed this result with very high accuracy and precision. We now know that the universe is flat with only a 2% margin of error.
In Quran the word "RAHIM" means womb, "RAHMA" means mercy, "ALRAHEEM" means "The Merciful", "ALRAHMAAN" means "The Almighty". These meanings cannot be changed by any logic.
Nothing comes forth of Allah. Everything comes into bieng by his "be" command out of nowhere. Allah is exalted and has no relationship with anything He creates. Nothing is produced from inside Allah, everything is distinct and Allah is unique and has no relation with any kind of energy.
Chapter 112 verse 3
?He does not beget, nor was He begotten,?
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Peace,
Abrar, for one, you have completely mistaken the explanation of what the word 'rahma' is about. It is not that Allah IS a womb. He takes care of us AS a womb. BIG difference. The word Rahma refers to a nourishment towards perfection without any asking of returns just LIKE a womb nourishes a foetus towards perfection without asking any returns.
Secondly. A throne is a symbol of power. I was at a palace yesterday that had an open day for us 'common folk'. Thrones were never used as normal chairs. They are only symbols of power. To take the throne literally is unrealistic as it even clashes with the use of real thrones in our life.
And it was never about if the universe is infinite or not, as I know already it is not for years. I have studied Higher Physics myself. To understand 537-9 you have to understand what 539 means. The qab of a quas is the part of the bow that sits between the handle and the end of a bow or also from one end of the bow to the other. It was used in Ancient Arabic to specify a bond between two sides. In this case it is the Prophet who is the connection between Allah and the human through giving Muhammed Revelation. It has NOTHING to do with real distance or position. It has to do with that the Prophet was the bridge between the Divine Will and with the Human Will.
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hmmm..i ll think over this 1! -)
meanwhile..leads us to god and away from god...
..where is god? -)
peace thegod,
Where is god? god is everywhere.what is truth?
truth /tru/
?noun, plural truths- the true or actual state of a matter He tried to find out the truth.
- conformity with fact or reality; verity the truth of a statement.
- a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like mathematical truths.
- the state or character of being true.
- actuality or actual existence.
that pretty much sums it up. A dictionary can be helpful.
so what u cannot "verify" is not true?
yes. If you tell me I'm wearing a blue shirt. I will look to see if my shirt is really blue or not. If it is, then what you said is true. If not, you are a liar.
i said if no...but u do claim to know the truth of all things...so yes...if that be the case ur vision encopmasses all things! -)
I claim to know the definition of truth. If I know what truth means, I can find what the truth is. I can choose to limit my "vision" and understanding, but it isn't limited by nature. I can find out whatever I want to find out.
it is...life is complicated...reality is complicated....mathematics is complicated...perception is complicated!
-)
Yes, life is very complicated. But the basic process of verification is not. But for some reason you are having a tough time understanding it. Let me ask you a question, should we verify the things we read in the quran (or anyother book) or not?
quran says christ was not killed on the cross test it and tell me ur result! -)
I'm not sure if it actually says that, but let's assume for now that it does...
I can do research, find historical, archeological evidence and come to a conclusion.
But since this hasn't been proven by anyone yet, I will assume that my research would lead to nothing. So, I cannot believe what the quran says. If it is used as an example to explain a certain truth, then I will use to understand that truth and not go around preaching that jesus wasn't killed on the cross.so have u done what galileo did? gone up a tower and thrown down 2 different weights...or whatever he did? -)
go to the top of a tower on a windy day..and throw a feather and a blob of iron....and tell us what u observed! -)
wow. I hope you do understand that I didn't actually do that.
Anyway, all objects fall at the same time in a vacuum. In air, two objects with the same shape (with different masses) fall at the same time because the effect of air resistance is the same.
Are you trying to prove Galileo wrong or something?
Well, I am doing what Galileo did in the sense that (I really thought you would understand this already) I am not taking anyone's or anything's word as gospel. I have to verify everything. Otherwise we don't know what is true or not.
Why don't you give me your position on this. Should we just believe everything we read, or should we actually try to figure our whether it is true or not before following it?what? aristotle's belief? -)
again...u gave very convenient examples of black/blue font and of 2 + 2 = 4..
...but if u are color blind...u will have a hard time telling some colors from other...like blue/green...so? -)
What??
what kind of example do you want? I gave you a simple example, because I don't have all the time in the world to give you a very complicated example that is completely relevant to your life just to explain to you what the word "verify" means. If a person is color blind, he will not be able to tell different colors. But that's not what we are talking about, and colors is hardly the most important thing in life.
But then if a person is blind, and/or has a learning disability, he has no chance of ever reading the quran.
We are just going around in circles because you are not being clear about what you want to say. Just state your point and offer an explanation if you think it is needed or if I ask for it. You keep asking weird questions and I don't know how to answer them because I have no idea what in the world you are getting at.if u are not concerned about the quran...why are u concerned about that verse? it is from the quran...isnt it? -)
Let me restate what I said. I have an understanding of the verses of the quran (your understanding). I have found that that understanding doesn't make much sense. So, unless you can show me that it does make sense (and showing me verses will not do that), I cannot follow that understanding. So either the quran is saying something else, or the quran is just wrong.
Let's just stick to this right now, I think we are getting into too much at once.
peace