Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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Salaam all,
Can anyone help? What about the musjid in Madina and the two quiblas, were they 180 degrees from each other or at an angle. If one was poihting toward the land of Palestine, was the other pointing straight in the desert or at an angle towards what is the city of Mecca today?
How does one notice the quibla in the buikding? I've seen tape on carpet, lines on carpet, what was it then?
adjwi
That is a good question and sure I will try to chase the answer, I have a cousin who lives in Al Madina and I will try to get his number and seek his help
on the mean time I found this good read
As it holds the Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) mosque and holy grave, Al-Madina Al-Munawwara (Arabic for "The Lightened or Glowing City" is the second most important place to Muslims. It comes just after Makka (Mecca) and before Jerusalem in holiness. Today, the city is the capital of Al-Madina province (shown underlined on the map bellow) at the western region of Saudi Arabia.. It is located at 24?46.09N, 39?62.02E and has a population of about 600,000.
It is impossible to accurately determine the actual year of the founding of Madina, as the number of centuries which separate Noah (upon him be peace) and the emigration of the Messenger of Allah, the Prophet Mohammed (Peace be upon him), is not known absolutely. The narration of some historians have been transmitted to us, but academically they are unreliable. They merely serve as corroboration of the preponderant proof that has been passed down in written historical chronicles. The 'Abeel and Al-'Amaaleeq tribes existed in the distant past and their oral traditions and traces of artifacts, which would specifically date their age, are non-existent. Thus, authenticating the precise time of the founding of Madina is an impossibility.
Some of the more recent histories, those reaching back to 1600 years before the emigration of the Prophet (Peace be upon him), have also been lost. However, we know that the 'Abeel tribe spoke Arabic, for this has been documented in chronicles that remain. It has been determined from these works of non-Arabs, that this was the approximate time of the appearance of the word Yathrib (Madina's pre-Islamic name).
The name also appears in inscriptions that have been discovered and in books dealing with the history of the Kingdom, in particular those dealing with the cities where various communities had existed. It was also well-known in parts of Yemen, between 600 and 1300 B.C. At that time, prosperity flourished and their power and influence were spread to the Hijaaz and Palestine. When the Sultan of Yemen became weak, the existing groups of inhabitants protected the trade routes to the north. This caravan route specifically passed Yathrib.
This approximate history also agrees with those historians who have mentioned the presence of the tribe, Al-'Amaaleeq. They fought wars with Bani Isra'il (Sons of Israel) in the northern part of the Arabian peninsula and in Sinai.
Although Madina came to prominence with the introduction of Islam, its roots date back hundreds of years into the pre-Islamic era when it was known as Yathrib. The city had abundant water supplies that fed vast date palms and vegetable gardens. The availability of food and water made Madina an important reprovisioning point for caravans that plied the commercial routes from the southern part of the Arabian Peninsula along the Red Sea to Syria and Egypt. Its inhabitants sold food to these passing caravans and, over time, became involved in trade.
It was against this backdrop that the Prophet Muhammad was born in 570 AD in Makka and received the first verses of the Holy Qur'an in the year 610. Based on the worship of God, the absolute and single Creator, Islam rejected the idolatry that was prevalent in Makka at the time. As such, Islam was viewed as a threat to the livelihood and power base of the ruling tribe of Makka, and its growing number of followers were harassed, persecuted and threatened.
During this period, leaders of Yathrib, familiar with the Prophet Muhammad's reputation for honesty and sincerity, had sent envoys asking that he mediate a dispute between two powerful tribes. Impressed by the Prophet's character and teachings, these envoys soon accepted Islam and were followed by other converts. Observing the growing threat to their fellow Muslims in Makka, the people of Yathrib offered a safe haven to them, and beginning in 620 AD, the Prophet Muhammad started sending groups of Muslims to live in Yathrib.
Having learned of a plot to murder him, the Prophet Muhammad himself left Makka for Yathrib, arriving in the city in September 622. This event is known as the Hijrah (emigration). The Prophet's arrival in Yathrib was a turning point in world history. It marked the establishment of the first Islamic state and the rapid growth of the new faith. From then on, the city became Madinat Al-Nabi (The Prophet's City), and the date of the Prophet's arrival there marked the first year of the Islamic calendar.
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With the emigration, Madina became a center of activity. Upon his approach to the oasis in 622, the Prophet established the first mosque in Islam at Quba, a village on the outskirts of Madina. Called Masjid Al-Taqwa (Mosque of Piety), the mosque still stands, albeit modernized and enlarged.
Once settled in Madina, the Prophet built another mosque adjacent to his house. Called Masjid Al-Nabawi (the Prophet's Mosque), the first structure on today's site was a simple one supported by the trunks of standing palm trees, and was built by the Prophet himself. It was this mosque at which the Prophet and his companions prayed, and which soon became the social and economic center of the city and the Islamic state. With the growth of Islam, more mosques were established throughout the city and its environs.
While the Holy Mosque in Makka was the spiritual center of Islam, Madina became the administrative hub of the new Islamic state during the Prophet Muhammad's lifetime. It was from here that the successful campaign to convince the tribes to abandon idolatry was waged.
It was also in Madina that the Prophet's companions compiled the verses of the Holy Qur'an and collected the Hadith (teachings and sayings of the Prophet) that would serve as the basis of Shari'ah (Islamic law).
And it was also in Madina that the Prophet died on June 8, 632, and where he was buried in his house adjoining the mosque he had helped build with his own hands.
After his death, the first three caliphs, Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq, Omar Ibn Al-Khattab and Othman Ibn Affan, continued to administer from Madinah the expanding Islamic nation, which had by now spread to Persia and Syria. In time, Abu Bakr and Omar were buried in a separate chamber next to the Prophet. Othman and several members of the Prophet's immediate family were buried at the nearby Baqi' Cemetery.
The administrative and political demands of a growing empire, one that over the next hundred years would reach from Spain and Morocco in the west through the Middle East, to the Indian Subcontinent and beyond in the east, forced subsequent Islamic leaders to move their capital away from Madina.
Although its political and commercial fortunes declined in the following centuries, the City of the Prophet continued to hold a special place in the hearts of Muslims. The small mosque the Prophet had established next to his house was enlarged by various Muslim rulers over time and continued to draw pilgrims from around the world as Islam's second holiest site.
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Here we go
http//www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/mosque/qiblatain.html
http//www.ezsoftech.com/islamic/qiblatain.asp
Slam dunk
brickwall brickwall brickwall
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How does one notice the quibla in the buikding? I've seen tape on carpet, lines on carpet, what was it then?
Hello
YOu recognise the Qiblah via somthing called Mihrab, and that is where the prophet or the Imam lead the prayer, it is like a an area of the wall in front of you has been pushed forward, and clearly the url I posted says that it has TWO MIHRABS one pointing to Mecca and the other is pointing to Jerusalem, this is the only mosque in the world with this feature because the shift of the Qiblah happened during prayer
Cheers
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Salaama all,
Thank-you AhmedBahgat for your efforts and time. I will await your clarifications from your cousin, god willing.
As for the history, it seems from what you wrote that Makka was not a place of trade, rather a place of worship, of pagan worship. Is my understanding correct? Yathrib would be a place situated on a known trade route, but not Makka, correct?
What is put to question on this thread is the fact that Makka today is not the Makka mentionned in the quran. Do you know of any name change of that city? If todays Makka was a pagan center before Mohammed, did it have a different name? Now Bakka is understood as being a name in the land of Palestine that has been used in history dating back before Jesus and still in use today. Are there any indications that there would be two Bakkas?
In the image of changing direction during the prayer, would that mean that at one point he was ahead of the group and in turning around the prophet would have been at the back? Which is which?
adjwi
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Thank-you AhmedBahgat for your efforts and time. I will await your clarifications from your cousin, god willing.
no worries however getting to my cousin is a big hassle because I dont even know his number, if I bloody knew, my sister was just doing Hajj and I would have asked her to take as many photos of the two mihrabs from all directions
On the other hand, what I showed make great sense with every word in the Quran according to its proper meaning, while I'm shocked that a few muslims in here buy that non sensible and silly concept that requires massive manipulations and lies about Allah, the Quran and the Arabic language, there is no doubt that those with knoweldge saw it with ease
As for the history, it seems from what you wrote that Makka was not a place of trade, rather a place of worship, of pagan worship. Is my understanding correct? Yathrib would be a place situated on a known trade route, but not Makka, correct?
I didn't write anything, I only posted two urls talking about Yathrib, you can do that too, just type it in google and you will get zillions then you need to spend the time and read it
What is put to question on this thread is the fact that Makka today is not the Makka mentionned in the quran.
and what is the evidences?
Do you know of any name change of that city?
No, but I know that a city can be called by more than one name and I know that Mecca is Becca from the compelling evidences includiing the Quran and the hadith
If todays Makka was a pagan center before Mohammed, did it have a different name?
Possibly was called by another name along with its name Mecca, that actually rimes with the cries of baby Ismael as the word Bacca may be drived from Bukkaa which is crying, and that is what him and his mother went through\ struggling for water because we know that their father left them in an uncutivated valley near the scared mosque
Now Bakka is understood as being a name in the land of Palestine that has been used in history dating back before Jesus and still in use today.
it is very hardly used today indeed, it is only mentioned in the Bible once and why not there are two areas with the same name, can you show me a curent map with the word Becca on it?
we also need to see the evidences you are talking about that should tell us before jesus the name was used, are you going to use the Bible as evidence?
Are there any indications that there would be two Bakkas?
why not?
we have a masjid with two Qiblatain, and I have two names, also Cairo is called Masr, , Mohammad also was called Ahmed in the Quran, right?
In the image of changing direction during the prayer, would that mean that at one point he was ahead of the group and in turning around the prophet would have been at the back? Which is which?
come on mate, i don't like people asking me silly questions that will only result in the waste of my time
i really careless how it happned secind by second
possibly the prophet only changed direction and they saw him and did it, or possibly not, also there is no indication that there were hundreds standing behind him, possibly a max of 20 as any prayer, remember it was the start of Islam
Salam
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Peace Ahmed,
Maqam is not what the confused Saudi are showing us, Maqam is a place where Ibrahim used to stand, and that is enough to take Al Masjid Al Haram in Mecca as such
If the Saudis are confused then this makes you even more confused for following confused people and defending and revering the idols that they built with their own hands.
where is the Quran evidences Ayman, you are just going in circles with your silly photos, well it makes me laugh and I have to thank for that lol
The evidence in the great reading certainly doesn't point to the "maqam"/standing/status of Ibrahim being a footprint idol or being in Mecca at all for that matter. I indeed showed the silly photos of what the Saudis have named the Kaaba, Maqam Ibrahim, and the Black Stone. So you think that those things are silly and yet you "go in circles" around them, revere them and prostrate towards them. This is indeed silly. As I said, you can happily spin around and prostrate towards such filthy pagan idols but don't claim that the god asked us to do so.
Peace,
Ayman
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ahmedbahgat wrote
Actually Allah has told us that to take Maqam Ibrahim as Mossala, i.e. a place for the believers to perform Salat in it, i.e. Al Masjid Al haram is a place to perform Salat in it...
Therefore there is no doubt that WE WERE ORDERED TO APPOINT FOR OURSELVES A MOSSALA OF PRAYER ON MAQAM IBRAHIM
a very interesting observation bro!
v know from 835 that the pagans held some sort of salat by albayt (al kaaba)...and since it is highly unlikely that they could fit themselves in the place within the kaaba...the only conclusion is that it (inda) refers to the place without!
also v know that it is almasjid alharam that surrounds the kaaba....so v can easily verify ur observation that almasjid alharam is a place for salat! good work bro! -)
what i wanna ask u is this v known that masjid is a place of sujood! now the kaaba is surrounded by almasjid alharam...so it stands within this place of sujood....so is the kaaba also part of almasjid alharam?
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what i wanna ask u is this v known that masjid is a place of sujood! now the kaaba is surrounded by almasjid alharam...so it stands within this place of sujood....so is the kaaba also part of almasjid alharam?
Salam bro
Yes bro it is part of Al Masjid Al haram, this is what Allah told us
Allah has made the Kaaba, the sacred house, a maintenance for the people, and the sacred month and the offerings and the sacrificial animals with garlands; this is that you may know that Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth, and that Allah is the Knower of all things.
(97)
-> See how accurate Allah is in using every word?, He said "Allah has made the Kaaba, the sacred house", you know why, because people can't do sijood inside it rather around it, it is like a center going to all directions, and the kabba is where all should be directing their faces in unity, not bloody worshipping the stone as Ayman and Tanveer are deceiving other and lying about us, this is obvious because he accused Layth with the same while layth is pointing to another place, The reality is, this is what Allah ordered us to do clearly, a child who posses basic Arabic will understand it with ease, unlike their puzzles and illusions in their Barbie world of imagination that inlcude living on the Moon and pointing to Mars, hahaha, what a load of non sense man, it only lead to astray others who lack knowledge, well everyone of us will be held accountable, one of the imortant account that will be given mate is simply how everyone mislead others who followed them, on that day of account both the leader and the followers will curse each other, the followers will seek double the punishment for those whom they followed, the surprise for them is, each will get double the punishment, the first is for the same crime Kafir/mushrik and the second is simply different for each, one for misleading others and the other is for following non sense that contradicts the QuranSalam mate
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Peace Ahmed
As per verse 597, I have two questions
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The verse says that the "ka3ba, albayt al7araam" -not its surroundings- was made ......etc. Where did you get "surroundings" from? Didn't God, when He said that, know that you can't do sijoud in it? Also, where is "sijoud/prayer" in the verse?
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What's the relation between "alshahr al7araam" and the "ka3ba"? Do we have to fast there? Or is it a second object "maf3ool bihi" for made "ja3ala" like He made the ka3ba alshahr al7araam - or He made the ka3ba, the bayt al7araam, the shahr al7araam maintenance for the people...
Also, is it He made alka3ba, albayt al7araam or He made alka3ba albayt al7araam (maf3uul bihi/ direct object)?
Sorry for the heavy grammar, but it is necessary to understand since we have many nouns, all in the definite, and one verb that takes more than one maf3uul bihi/direct object.
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Peace Ahmed
As per verse 597, I have two questions
- The verse says that the "ka3ba, albayt al7araam" -not its surroundings- was made ......etc. Where did you get "surroundings" from? Didn't God, when He said that, know that you can't do sijoud in it? Also, where is "sijoud/prayer" in the verse?
Salam Samia
yeh that's right, the verse said the Kabba is made al Bayt Haram , now the surroundings is Al Masjid Haram,
i.e. the Kabaa is not Al Masjid Al Hrama rather the centre of Al Masjid Al Haram,
for the other 2 questions, when I said you can't do sujood in it, I meant logically because the Kabba is a very small house as you know and won't fit more than (possibly 20), therefore Al Masjid Al Haram is the area around the Kabba and it can speared in all directions as long as it fit as many of all the people
- What's the relation between "alshahr al7araam" and the "ka3ba"?
Well there 4 sacred months, one of these sacred months is for the Big Hajj as the prophet taught us Zu Al Hijja, therefore I believe Al Shahr Al Haram mentioned is the Shahr of the big Hajj some scholars suggested that Allah means all the 4 sacred months when He said Al Shahr Al Hara\m which I also see it valid
Do we have to fast there?
if it is Ramadan, yeh why not fasting there
Or is it a second object "maf3ool bihi" for made "ja3ala" like He made the ka3ba alshahr al7araam - or He made the ka3ba, the bayt al7araam, the shahr al7araam maintenance for the people...
All 4 entities Al Kabba, Al Shahr Al Haram, Al Qlaaid and Al Haddai were made Qiama for the people, Qiama can mean many things
To do salat
To reside around it (and many poor people sleep around safely),Have you been there before?
I have and in no way this place is not sacred as Allah told
The word Al Harram does not mean the forbidden as many here promote, it means THE HOLY
Also, is it He made alka3ba, albayt al7araam or He made alka3ba albayt al7araam (maf3uul bihi/ direct object)?
the first Mafool Bihi is Al Kabba, the following are Matoof on the Mafool Behi
so the first Mafool behi = Al Kabba
and the following are Matoof on Al Kabba
- Al Shahr
- Al Qlaaid
- Al Haddia
The word Al Haram that came after Al Shahr is an adjective to Al Shahr
Sorry for the heavy grammar, but it is necessary to understand since we have many nouns, all in the definite, and one verb that takes more than one maf3uul bihi/direct object.
you can have as many Matoof Ala any noun
for example
I eat fish, meat, vegetables and fruits
The first Mafool Bihi is the fish then the meat, the vegetables and the fruits are Matoof on the fish, i.e. they should follow the same Tashkil
Salam
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Peace Ahmed,
Salam Ayman
If the Saudis are confused then this makes you even more confused for following confused people
Well, that is if they are confused in every aspect, but the only aspect we are talking about in here is Maqam Ibrahim, on the other hand it may not even be a case of confusion on their side rather a case of false accusation on your side and we know now that you are professional in doing so, because that footprint of Ibrahim may be a true mark of his foot and it was kept for years and years as a great memory from the one who called us Muslims and the one who built Al Bayt Al Haram for us, what is wrong with that ?, on the other hand you are always trying to make it sort of materliastic while it is nothing more than a memorabilia that only has some emotional effect on some and not even all
When I have been there, I didn?t even notice it nor I looked for it neither in the written guides I had it was even mentioned nor the people who lived there and guided me through the steps even talked about it
So it is you who is trying to deceive others by posting that photo of what the Saudis built as if people are praying for it, be honest Ayman and stop playing with the minds of those who lack knowledge
and defending and revering the idols that they built with their own hands.
see how you manipulated it to serve your own low desires?, well I don?t defend what the Saudi built, indeed it means nothing more more than a memorabilia to me as I said, Maqam Ibrahim means totally something else and I believe it means the same for the Saudi government, it is you who is cooking up an accusation from nothing and as far as those who have been there whom I spoken with, NONE even mentioned that thing that the Saudi built, indeed it is my first time ever to see it in the photo you posted despite I have been there doing Ummrah while the Haram was not even crowded
The evidence in the great reading certainly doesn't point to the "maqam"/standing/status of Ibrahim being a footprint idol or being in Mecca at all for that matter.
of course, however you are manipulating it again and again by saying it is an idol, never heard of such nor seen any Muslim acting in such manner, it is you who is manipulating it to serve you low desires and you even did that with Layth while he is pointing to another place, so you accused him of taking the rock as an idol
I indeed showed the silly photos of what the Saudis have named the Kaaba,
The Saudis never called it the Kabba, it was Allah who called it as such and it was Ibrahim who raised its foundation in an uncultivated valley, it is you who is cooking a lie to serve your low desires
Maqam Ibrahim,
if they call it Maqam Ibrahim then they are wrong, but if they call it the foot point of Ibrahim then it is a memorabilia, on the other hand I can only confirm this when I go there again inshaallah and read what is written on it, because it means nothing to me and I have never seen it while being there once nor it was even mentioned to me, my wife also did Hajj and she never saw it, therefore it is nothing but a memorabilia that you may or may not see while being there
and the Black Stone.
I have never seen it nor I care to see it, and the same with my wife who did hajj, on the other hand I don?t expect that all Muslims who go there that they really understand their religion and what they are doing there
So you think that those things are silly and yet you "go in circles" around them,
Manipulating again, that is what you only do Ayman and I tell you mate, you lose credit by insisting on that, the Muslims were ordered to do Tawaf by Allah, the Muslims don?t do Tawaf around Maqam Ibrahim nor they do it around a black stone rather around Al Bayt Al Atiq, i.e. the House that Ibrahim and his son raised its foundation and since then it is staying and will stay according to the will of Allah
revere them and prostrate towards them.
hahaha, that is your big lie about those who pray to Allah in there as you lied about Layth and accused him of prostrating to the doom of the rock
that is why you posted a photo with some Muslims praying behind the foot print of Ibrahim that you call it Maqam, while the fact of the matter is, behind that foot print we can see Bayt Allah, i.e. they were directing their faces to Bayt Allah and not prostrating to the foot print of Ibrahim, you are lying about those Muslims as you lied about Layth and accused him of prostrating to the Doom of the Rock
This is indeed silly.
By you, of course mate, very silly by you to keep ranting about others who disagree with your non sense, you falsely claim that they are prostrating to some rock, glass and a stone
As I said, you can happily spin around and prostrate towards such filthy pagan idols but don't claim that the god asked us to do so.
Peace,
Ayman
LOL, it seems that you don?t get it Ayman, here it is in brief
- All the archaeological evidences especially Masjid of Qiblatain leads to Mecca as being the Qiblah (But I'm not interested to discuss that), what I discuss is the followings
- All the Quran evidences lead that Becca must be Mecca
- All the Quran evidences leads to our Qiblah is Mecca
- All the Quran evidences lead to Al Masjid is a physical plcace
- All the Quran evidences lead to Al Masjid al Haram is a physical place
- All The Quran evidences lead to Hajj and its acts of Tawaf and prostrating in on e direction
You only provided a few silly photos with a bit of some vein talk and false accusations to others trying hard to make a silly point but the reality is mate, you are only making a joke of yourself
Salam
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Peace Ahmed,
Well, that is if they are confused in every aspect, but the only aspect we are talking about in here is Maqam Ibrahim, on the other hand it may not even be a case of confusion on their side rather a case of false accusation on your side and we know now that you are professional in doing so, because that footprint of Ibrahim may be a true mark of his foot and it was kept for years and years as a great memory from the one who called us Muslims and the one who built Al Bayt Al Haram for us, what is wrong with that ?, on the other hand you are always trying to make it sort of materliastic while it is nothing more than a memorabilia that only has some emotional effect on some and not even all
This is all your conjecture based on what you admit are the "confused Saudis". Hence, it is no wonder that you are still confused and you say "that footprint of Ibrahim may be a true mark of his foot". As typical of people who revere such "memorabilia", you are ignorant of the fact that such footprints are not unique or special but are typically what we find for fertility idols. According to pagan mythology, good fortune and flowers spring up in the footprints of the idol. Thus, you find such prints next to the fertility idol's sanctuary. Here is an example
http//img180.imageshack.us/img180/2438/footprintqj6.jpg
Notice that above, people such as yourself who revere this "memorabilia" have placed flowers on it. Now look closely at your pagan "memorabilia" below and you will see the flower motif all the way around it
http//img442.imageshack.us/img442/1479/91maqamibrahim2fx6.jpg
Again, all this filthy stuff that you are defending is pagan "memorabilia" that has nothing to do with Abraham or the great reading.
At any rate, your attitude and words are the same exact thing that Christians say about the shroud of Turin, the cross and a bunch of other "memorabilia" that they revere. Indeed, deep inside your hearts are alike.
When I have been there, I didn?t even notice it nor I looked for it neither in the written guides I had it was even mentioned nor the people who lived there and guided me through the steps even talked about it
So it is you who is trying to deceive others by posting that photo of what the Saudis built as if people are praying for it, be honest Ayman and stop playing with the minds of those who lack knowledgeSo instead of defending it, shouldn't you follow the example of Abraham? If you really believe that Mecca is the location of the house, shouldn't you be purifying the place from such filthy pagan "memorabilia" instead of finding excuses for it like "uh..hmm...that footprint of Ibrahim may be a true mark of his foot and ... oh...yes... here is a another good excuse...it was not in the written guides". Is your desperate search for excuses for such "memorabilia" the example of Abraham? An honest monotheist would denounce such filthy idols right away instead of running around looking for excuses.
see how you manipulated it to serve your own low desires?, well I don?t defend what the Saudi built, indeed it means nothing more more than a memorabilia to me as I said, Maqam Ibrahim means totally something else and I believe it means the same for the Saudi government, it is you who is cooking up an accusation from nothing and as far as those who have been there whom I spoken with, NONE even mentioned that thing that the Saudi built, indeed it is my first time ever to see it in the photo you posted despite I have been there doing Ummrah while the Haram was not even crowded
The fact that this is the first time that you saw it is typical of most sectrians. They are mostly ignorant about their own idols. Of course the Saudis like to keep it this way because they are worried that people may start questioning when they see with their own eyes the truth about what they built and called Maqam Ibrahim. Luckily we are in a time where cell phone cameras have made such task increasingly difficult for the Saudis.
You admit that "Maqam Ibrahim means totally something else". So you admit that the Saudis are liars because they built an object and named it "Maqam Ibrahim" when it is not the real maqam Ibrahim. They thus deceive people into thinking that this footprint idol is the maqam Ibrahim talked about in 2125.
of course, however you are manipulating it again and again by saying it is an idol, never heard of such nor seen any Muslim acting in such manner, it is you who is manipulating it to serve you low desires and you even did that with Layth while he is pointing to another place, so you accused him of taking the rock as an idol
If someone makes a rock or a stone as their focal point then they have turned it into an idol. It doesn't matter if it is Layth, you or me.
The Saudis never called it the Kabba, it was Allah who called it as such and it was Ibrahim who raised its foundation in an uncultivated valley, it is you who is cooking a lie to serve your low desires
This is again demonstrating your ignorance of the indisputable fact that it is the Saudis that built the object that you call Kaaba in 1996. They built it in 1996 and said to people "this object that we just built now is the Kaaba".
if they call it Maqam Ibrahim then they are wrong, but if they call it the foot point of Ibrahim then it is a memorabilia, on the other hand I can only confirm this when I go there again inshaallah and read what is written on it, because it means nothing to me and I have never seen it while being there once nor it was even mentioned to me, my wife also did Hajj and she never saw it, therefore it is nothing but a memorabilia that you may or may not see while being there
Yes I agree with you that it is wrong to name things that you built with your own hand after concepts in the great reading to deceive people into believing that those things are what is mentioned in the great reading and are endorsed by the god. The Saudis called it Maqam Ibrahim for one reason and one reason only. That is to deceive people that what they built with their own hands is endorsed by the god in 2125.
The same exact thing can be said about the building that the Saudis built with their own hands in 1996 and named it Kaaba to deceive people into thinking that it is the same exact thing talked about in the great reading and endorsed by the god.
I have never seen it nor I care to see it, and the same with my wife who did hajj, on the other hand I don?t expect that all Muslims who go there that they really understand their religion and what they are doing there
So you admit that you expect people who go there idolize this "memorabilia" and thus it is an idol and yet you still defend it and look for excuses for it and don't denounce it and try to purify the house. Is this the example of Ibrahim? If he found out that people are idolizing an object, did he say to people "I have never seen it nor I care to see it, and the same with my wife who did hajj"? Or did he purify the house? If you are honestly trying to follow the example of Abraham, the least you can do is denounce such idolworship magnets.
Manipulating again, that is what you only do Ayman and I tell you mate, you lose credit by insisting on that, the Muslims were ordered to do Tawaf by Allah, the Muslims don?t do Tawaf around Maqam Ibrahim nor they do it around a black stone rather around Al Bayt Al Atiq, i.e. the House that Ibrahim and his son raised its foundation and since then it is staying and will stay according to the will of Allah
Again, you are demonstrating your ignorance that the Saudis in 1996 are the ones who raised the foundations of the object that you call Kaaba and built it. They built it as they build any other building, they dug a hole poured concrete for the foundation and built the blocks and when it was completed, they said to people "what we just built is called Kaaba".
hahaha, that is your big lie about those who pray to Allah in there as you lied about Layth and accused him of prostrating to the doom of the rock
that is why you posted a photo with some Muslims praying behind the foot print of Ibrahim that you call it Maqam, while the fact of the matter is, behind that foot print we can see Bayt Allah, i.e. they were directing their faces to Bayt Allah and not prostrating to the foot print of Ibrahim, you are lying about those Muslims as you lied about Layth and accused him of prostrating to the Doom of the Rock
By you, of course mate, very silly by you to keep ranting about others who disagree with your non sense, you falsely claim that they are prostrating to some rock, glass and a stoneIt is not false. It is an indisputable fact that physically there is no difference between prostrating towards something and prostrating to something. If you are going to say that mental "intention" is what matters then you are contradicting yourself that "sujud" is primarily physical.
LOL, it seems that you don?t get it Ayman, here it is in brief
- All the archaeological evidences especially Masjid of Qiblatain leads to Mecca as being the Qiblah (But I'm not interested to discuss that), what I discuss is the followings
Of course you don't want to discuss this because you know that there is ZERO archeological evidence for Mecca.
- All the Quran evidences lead that Becca must be Mecca
Can you show the passage that says "Becca is really Mecca"? Of course you can't. At least the Saudis who you admit are confused and wrong can provide a better excuse for their footprint idol that they named Maqam Ibrahim. They can lie and say "look it is mentioned in 2125".
- All the Quran evidences leads to our Qiblah is Mecca
That is funny. I don't recall seeing Mecca in 2142-150. You must be reading something else other than the great reading.
- All the Quran evidences lead to Al Masjid is a physical plcace
- All the Quran evidences lead to Al Masjid al Haram is a physical place
It is fine if you believe that. But then this doesn't have anything to do with proving that Mecca is that place.
- All The Quran evidences lead to Hajj and its acts of Tawaf and prostrating in on e direction
The word "tawaf" is never mentioned in the great reading. Some of its derivatives are mentioned and in all the locations where they are used they never mean "spin 7 times around an object".
You only provided a few silly photos with a bit of some vein talk and false accusations to others trying hard to make a silly point but the reality is mate, you are only making a joke of yourself
The photos of the Kaaba and the other idols around it only show the reality of the objects that you idolize. Those are not images that I drew myself. So if the photos are silly, it is because the objects in the photos are silly. It is not my fault that your idol that the Saudis built and named Kaaba is silly. Of course, like the Saudis, you don't want people to see the reality of those objects. You want them to see the objects from far away because they are decorated and look majestic. But up close reality unfolds and people can see that a rock is just a rock and a stone is just a stone and people idolize those things and you don't like people to see that reality.
Peace,
Ayman
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WOW!! 39 pages of pointless debate.
Don't you think it's about time to call it quits and just agree to disagree??
I will have just one comment amidst all the chaos in here
AhmedBahgat wrote
The word Al Harram does not mean the forbidden as many here promote, it means THE HOLY
.I don't agree with you.
When God says adultery is "HARAM" or eating pig meat is "HARAM" does this mean that adultery and pig meat are holy???
Haram=forbidden
This is why a woman is often called "hurma" because she is FORBIDDEN to anyone but her husband. ( It does not mean she is holy ).
Muqaddas ( Quddous) = Holy
The attribute of "QUDDOUS" ( Holy ) in the scripture is NEVER EVER EVER given to a physical structure made by the hands of men.
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WOW!! 39 pages of pointless debate.
Don't you think it's about time to call it quits and just agree to disagree??
I will have just one comment amidst all the chaos in here
AhmedBahgat wrote
.I don't agree with you.
When God says adultery is "HARAM" or eating pig meat is "HARAM" does this mean that adultery and pig meat are holy???
Haram=forbidden
This is why a woman is often called "hurma" because she is FORBIDDEN to anyone but her husband. ( It does mean she is holy ).
Muqaddas ( Quddous) = Holy
The attribute of "QUDDOUS" ( Holy ) in the scripture is NEVER EVER EVER given to a physical structure made by the hands of men.
I unnderstand that the word on its own means forbidden,m but when you say Al Bayt Al Haram, it can't mean the forbidden house, rather the holy house, I'm not saying the word holy is the best translation but I inisit that it is closer to the intended meaning than the restricted house, indeed the house of Allah is open for all believers at any time
Salam
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I unnderstand that the word on its own means forbidden,m but when you say Al Bayt Al Haram, it can't mean the forbidden house, rather the holy house, I'm not saying the word holy is the best translation but I inisit that it is closer to the intended meaning that the restricted house, indeed the house of Allah is open for all believers at any time
peace Ahmed,
So you just translate words depending on what fits your beliefs. So what if "haram" means "forbidden or restricted," that doesn't fit your beliefs, so it must mean "holy," right?
well, how about this
since I think that tractor-trailor makes no sense. (how can something be a tractor AND a trailor?) So tractor should mean "nice." Yes, "nice" makes much more sense there.
"I have a nice trailor." Sounds perfect!
I'm sure that's how you translate "daraba" too, in 434 (right?).Ahmed, what you said above has seriously damaged your credibility. How can we trust you if you translate everything based on your whims?
Either you give us a good explanation of why you think "holy" is a good translation, or you admit that there is no such thing as "holy mosque." -
peace Ahmed,
So you just translate words depending on what fits your beliefs. So what if "haram" means "forbidden or restricted," that doesn't fit your beliefs, so it must mean "holy," right?
well, how about this
since I think that tractor-trailor makes no sense. (how can something be a tractor AND a trailor?) So tractor should mean "nice." Yes, "nice" makes much more sense there.
"I have a nice trailor." Sounds perfect!
I'm sure that's how you translate "daraba" too, in 434 (right?).Ahmed, what you said above has seriously damaged your credibility. How can we trust you if you translate everything based on your whims?
Either you give us a good explanation of why you think "holy" is a good translation, or you admit that there is no such thing as "holy mosque."Waleed
you are confused because you don't get what I'm talking about, let me waste my time one more time
you still used the flawed root method to understand the meaning of the word Al Haram, and as I said for maybe 1000 times now, I don't use your novice and flawed root method to understand my native language, I will leave the flawed root method to you and your confusion
what you don't also understand and will never understand that Al before the word Haram has totally affected its meaning because you can not forbid something by using the word Haram with the Al
regarding your crap about my credability, I have no reply but to dismiss your crap
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Hello All
As you all know well that Al Masjid Al Haram is tranlsated by most translators as The Sacred Mosque, let's have a look at the definition of the word Sacred
Definitions of sacred on the Web
concerned with religion or religious purposes; "sacred texts"; "sacred rites"; "sacred music"
worthy of respect or dedication; "saw motherhood as woman's sacred calling"
consecrated made or declared or believed to be holy; devoted to a deity or some religious ceremony or use; "a consecrated chursh"; "the sacred mosque"; "sacred elephants"; "sacred bread and wine"; "sanctified wine"
hallowed worthy of religious veneration; "the sacred name of Jesus"; "Jerusalem's hallowed soil"
(often followed by `to' devoted exclusively to a single use or purpose or person; "a fund sacred to charity"; "a morning hour sacred to study"; "a private office sacred to the President"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwnI rest my case
Salam
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Here is another one
In various religions, sacred (from Latin, sacrum, "sacrifice"; or simply in English, "holy" objects, places or concepts are believed by followers to be intimately connected with the supernatural, or divinity, and are thus greatly revered. For example, pagans consider the Earth sacred, while Roman Catholics consider the transubstantiated host sacred. Reverence is the "deep respect and veneration for some thing, place, or person regarded as having a sacred or exalted character." OED
anyone who tranlsates the word Al Haram as the forbidden or the restricted is a clear cut ignorant