GOD - all quantum particles of all existence COMBINED!
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Peace "tay",
Peace jonny,
Perfect. Good to see you letting go of trying to define God.
Once you realize that love, beauty, laughter, and intuition have nothing to do with neurology, and are gifts from the infinite, I'd call it progress. Think of it like this is the color red created by your eyes? Reflect, jonnyk. Science is only for the physical - which we are far beyond.
Peace,
TayJK- Physical are the things which exist with high probability since weve tested them. Other stuff is superstition. Thts why i dont like the term spirituality. And if love , beauty and laughter are not controlled by regions in the brain then could you tell me that why if those are damaged these emotions disappear partially or completely? Moreover one can also stimulate laughter by stimulating the regions responsible for it in the brain. GOD created the neuro system and it is marvellous but to engage in superstitious nonsense aint smart at all. It wont allow us to progress and its not wht i believe GOD wants. Science is all we got to ascertain the truth. There is nothing else. GOD Bless!
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Peace jonny,
I'll answer your question when you can provide proof of such a thing, because as it stands, there is zero correlation of which you speak. Yes, laughter is expressed with facial and vocal expressions but it is humor which catalyzes laughter - and humor has no scientific explanation. Love and intuition, on the other hand, can in no way be recreated in the lab, muted, or even understood scientifically. And lastly, beauty is mysteriously and defyingly universal. Science has tried to correlate symmetry with beauty - falsely - but even if that were the case, science cannot fathom why symmetry equates to beauty.
Please, no more speculation and hypotheses if you want this discussion taken seriously. I expect cited material that we can dissect intellectually.
Peace,
Tay -
Tay,
What do you mean by that statement
"Think of it like this is the color red created by your eyes?" with this discussionColour is supposed to be the wavelength of the light that is reflected into your eye...
Wassallam
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Peace Mozmahe,
I agree. The wavelength is perceived and then translated by the brain. I asked this question to illustrate that just because there is a receptor in the brain that can be turned on and off (via damage or whatever), it does not define the message that is being received. Whether or not we can see the "red", it is still "red". So jonny's argument is falsified. Brain damage which leaves people seemingly impotent of things like love and intuition is not evidence of the brain's control over these concepts, only evidence of the brain's fundamental role in expressing or perceiving of these concepts. The brain is the vehicle through which these concepts are expressed and/or perceived. The brain does not create these concepts.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace "tay",
From what i hear from you i seriously doubt youve ever bee to a neuroscience lab. Chimps also experience emotions similar to man. Laughter is created in the brain as certain neurons are stimulated and related with certain memories. Usually a deviation from the norm or absurdity can cause such. Colors are perceived in the brain's neural network too and not in the eye as you correctly assert so whts the problem? Doesnt make it supernatural does it? Im sorry to say you dont sound like a scientist here, more like Christians. GOD Bless! -
Peace "tay",
Peace Mozmahe,
I agree. The wavelength is perceived and then translated by the brain. I asked this question to illustrate that just because there is a receptor in the brain that can be turned on and off (via damage or whatever), it does not define the message that is being received. Whether or not we can see the "red", it is still "red". So jonny's argument is falsified.
JK- This all depends on how you define red. If you define it by wavelength then yes even if one may see it as green coz hes color blind it would still have to be scientifically classified as red by him.
Brain damage which leaves people seemingly impotent of things like love and intuition is not evidence of the brain's control over these concepts, only evidence of the brain's fundamental role in expressing or perceiving of these concepts. The brain is the vehicle through which these concepts are expressed and/or perceived. The brain does not create these concepts.
Peace,
TayJK- Tay are you serious? Because if you are then i guess your the one speculating here. Moreover did you know experiments were done with rats where they could be entirely controlled, made hungry be social or not etc? Did you know that with a certain substance one can make humans laugh unwantingly or even cry? Did you know that people's personality could be totally changed if certain regions of their brain are manipulated? Did you know about a girl who had an accident and after that endulged in all kinds of criminal activities saying she knew not they were evil, but before she was good and kind? I mean it cant ge any clearer than this and if you dont believe go to a neuro clinic in your area and ask them. Theyll provide you with all the evidence but please dont start denying science. Whether an individual person can experience feelings with completely no brain activity is unknown and remains speculation. NDE experiences have been performed but those could be expereinces just as the brain's neurons were getting activated again and then the person informing about that info which he experienced during tht process and we know that since time is relative so a dreaming person while experiencing many hours the external people would have experienced only a couple of mins. GOD Bless!
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Peace jonny,
Like I said, please cite some credible references for us all to learn from. I've never feigned a mastery in science. Contrarily, that's all you talk about. So how about it? No more stories of nameless people who did so and so. You want science, let's be scientific about it.
We'll start with beauty.
Please cite a reputable article that shows conclusive evidence that beauty is created by the brain.If not, then this discussion is over.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
Alright here you go
http//www.biologynews.net/archives/2006/09/27/beauty_and_the_brain.html
http//www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060926171101.htm
And btw just presenting info here may not satisfy you so please i still urge you to go to a neural reserch center. GOD Bless! -
Peace jonny,
Thanks for the links. Unfortunately, they're both links to the same article, neither of which discloses the full criterion of the study. Furthermore, it seems to me that what's describe as "beauty" is actually articulated to mean "attractiveness"...
"What you like is a function of what your mind has been trained on," Winkielman said. "A stimulus becomes attractive if it falls into the average of what you've seen and is therefore simple for your brain to process. In our experiments, we show that we can make an arbitrary pattern likeable just by preparing the mind to recognize it quickly."
I don't think we need a scientist to tell us that we like what we're used to. This does not explain the inherent desire to seek and create beauty in everyone of us.
It's a step in the right direction though
Looking forward to some articles that support your claims.Peace,
Tay -
Peace "tay",
Thanks for the links. Unfortunately, they're both links to the same article, neither of which discloses the full criterion of the study. Furthermore, it seems to me that what's describe as "beauty" is actually articulated to mean "attractiveness"...
I don't think we need a scientist to tell us that we like what we're used to. This does not explain the inherent desire to seek and create beauty in everyone of us.
JK- Unfortunately im sensing that your beginning to sound like a creationist who can never get enough evidence. The thing is beauty is just more than one pattern of attractiveness combined. It's only a matter of scale. This is exactly the same tactic creationists say microevolution is true whlst macroevolution aint. Now wht you can do is if you want to have more details you can write an email to a scientific maganzine supplying you with info on neural research and since theyr experts in the field they can provide you exactly with the evidence you want. If your really scinetifically oriented youll do that and i relly hope so. GOD Bless!
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Peace jonny,
Trying to label me will not make your meager attempts disappear. Afterall, you don't see me quoting Dr. Kent Hovind, do you? Was I labelling you back when you were a creationist?
Fact is, bro, that you have no science to defend your worship of it. I'm pretty sure you found those links by googling just today - and they were empty. There's nothing wrong with admitting that God is greater than the science you're tying to use to define Him. In fact, once you do, a whole new world opens up. I was down your path, jonny. I used to believe in creationism too. I used to worship science too. But at the end of the day, both paths just brought more questions. The answers only come when you stop trying to figure them out. Your mind is not your soul, and the only way to hear God is by disconnecting from your mind, and reconnecting your soul to it's divine source. And that guidance does not translate.That's all I can really say about it.
I'll do my best to refrain from the urge to reply to most of your posts, because these discourses just seem to go in circles.Peace be upon you,
Tay -
Peace and greetings,
Dear Jonny,
Most of the scienctists overexagerrate about their understanding of the brain. Why cannot their drugs treat depression patients ? There are countless drugs for it but none seems to stimulate neurons to make one happy. My mother suffers from depression but none of the drugs have ever made her feel a bit happy or perceive that there are beautiful things in life. Schizophrenia(thoughts and emotions lose coordination) is a brain disease which scientists say is due to disturbance in brain's chemicals but yet they say it is untreatable because they do not understand really which chemicals and surprisingly they have invented a number of drugs with totally diffrenet chemicals which they try on patients but they achieve success only by sedating to sleep, which is old known effect opium in the old days. Scientists have really no understanding about human emotions they just overexagerrate their unknown, non verifiable and hoax claims. Americans are known to have the greatest number of mental health problems in the world but they have no treatment for them because scientists theories are just theories and nothing substantial as they claim.
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Peace "Tay",
I can only say this. Science means the study of nature, quantae are a part of nature and the Quran even says that GOD is the Light of the heavens and earth. So should i take all this including wht GOD Himself states or what you are speculating, superstition plus things unsupported by the QUran or only by turning certain verses into being allegorical whilst theyr already in connection with science. GOD Bless! -
Peace "Abrar",
You mentioned why then cant they control depression, entirely i.e. . Well as a matter of fact they can upto a certain point and it is limited ofcourse because science is still and always will be further advancing but it wont if we have ppl like you who become superstitious etc. GOD has kept the cure for depression in nature by natural means. And yes self suggestion can help as well, one doesnt always to take medicine and infact i discourage allopathic medicine which should only be used if necessary. Moreover why do you think GOD has kept our memories in the brain? Why do we forget if the brain is damaged? Why aint the info we attain saved somewhere else in another universe? It does look like everythings here including the soul. The only thing i can think of is the quantum field retaining the info on a subatomic level but that needs to form a macro organ like the brain again in a healthy state in order for it to be regained, and tht is i believe whtll happen on DOJ. Its all causal, logical and scientific and not some superstition. GOD Bless! -
Peace and greetings,
Dear Jonny,
I think that brain's working is beyond matter and particles that is what God calls Nafs or soul In Quran which I think is the essence of consciousness beyond the physical realm. I have found a vey good article at which attempts to explain athiest style scientists' scientific approach towards mind.
http//paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa062298.htm
Paranormal Meets Physics
Scientists at Princeton University and other respected institutions are beginning to prove that ESP and telekinesis are real, measurable phenomena. "If you consider the world an extension of yourself, it becomes a better place."
"The only way I can explain the phenomenon is that it's occurring... outside of space and time."
"Consciousness is the ground of all being."
"The universe is one and we are one with it."
These are not proclamations from the latest Zen philosophy self-help book, nor passages from The Celestine Prophecy, nor quotes from a Marianne Williamson seminar. They are not even remarks from some Uri Geller video. These are statements from respected, mainstream scientists, engineers, and researchers, respectively Brenda Dunne, a developmental psychologist at the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research laboratory (PEAR); John Haaland, president and CEO of Mindsong Inc., an electronics firm developing mind-matter machines; Amit Goswami, professor of Physics at the Institute of Theoretical Sciences at the University of Oregon; and Victor Stenger, professor of physics and astronomy at the University of Hawaii.Have all these respected scientists and engineers suddenly fallen under the influence of some New Age cult? Hardly. But they are converts of another kind, perhaps, since they are on the cutting edge of serious ESP and psychokinesis research - mind over matter. Not too long ago, if one brought up the subjects of ESP or telekinesis to a scientist, they would have readily been dismissed as "paranormal" and relegated to the purview of "fringe science" and unworthy of serious investigation. This stuff was considered unprovable, and left to the imaginations of New Age gurus and others thought of as wackos. This is not to fault those scientists; it's their job to be skeptical and to be able to prove, as best they can, whether or not something is true or likely.
Now science is doing just that with regard to some forms of ESP and telekinesis. Research conducted at Princeton University and other research laboratories around the world is confirming that thought alone can influence random events. With the aid of computers, sensitive instrumentation, and robotics, science now has the tools with which to test and measure the subtle influences of the human mind and reveal how it can possibly affect inanimate objects, electronics, and perhaps other human minds. The implications are astounding and far-reaching.
Science is beginning to shake hands with the paranormal.
Mind Over Machine
The PEAR lab at Princeton, under the direction of Professor Robert Jahn, uses a random event generator (REG) to conduct their trials. The REG is, essentially, a kind of electronic coin flipper that, if left alone, would generate as many heads as tails over a number of coin flips. However, PEAR's volunteers - normal people who do not claim to have any ESP powers whatever - are able to influence the REG to come up with more heads than tails, or vice versa. Certainly, they cannot make it come up heads every time, but the data shows that the influence is statistically relevant and much greater than chance. This is done without the benefit of electrodes attached to the head or any other kind of connection. More remarkable still, the volunteers do not even have to be in the same room with the REG. The lab in Princeton has produced results from volunteers as far away as Hungary and Brazil that are the same as those who are sitting just a few feet from the machine. Distance is irrelevant.
Jahn, Dunne, and their colleagues at PEAR don't know how or why people are able to influence their machines, they just know that they are. What's more, they have demonstrated that when using two volunteers who have an emotional attachment, the effects on the REG are even greater. The emotion of love seems to have a more powerful effect. This fact has prompted Dunne to theorize that the conscious human mind creates some kind of "resonance" with the surrounding world that lessens some of its randomness. "One form of this resonance," Dunne told Wired magazine, "is what we know as love. This emotional bond - the 'being on the same wavelength' - somehow reduces the entropy in the world a little bit. And random processes seem to reflect this reduction by showing a more organized physical reality."
Tricks with Chicks
This conscious or unconscious influence on the world isn't just a hidden power of the human mind either. Animals have also been shown to have an effect on machinery. In an experiment set up by Ren? Peoc'h and the Swiss Fondation Marcel et Monique Odier de Psycho-Physique, a cage of chicks was able to influence the meanderings of a robot better than people were. The robot, a self-propelled little device called a Tychoscope, was programmed to wander in a random manner around an enclosed room. When the cage of chicks was added to the room, however, the robot's behavior changed dramatically, spending much more time in the half of the room where the chicks were. Did the chicks will the robot to stay near them? Possibly, because the chicks had a motive. One group of chicks in the experiment had been "imprinted" with the sight of the Tychoscope - in other words, it was the first thing they saw when they hatched. So it could be that they just wanted "mommy" near. For another group of chicks, the room was darkened and a candle was placed on the Tychoscope. Bringing the robot to their side of the room also brought light to the chicks.
A Quantum Effect
These are just two of the more dramatic experiments that are bearing out the reality of consciousness over matter. And it's interesting that these findings are being made at the same time that scientific research is proving the bizarre nature of quantum mechanics, which is showing that the mere observation of subatomic particles can affect how they behave. Are the Princeton experiments demonstrating some kind of biological quantum effect that we do not yet understand? Is the human brain - and the brain of each living creature, for that matter - a quantum device? Is the collective unconscious proposed by analytical psychologist Carl Jung and others actually a quantum effect?
That the conscious minds of living things can influence our reality has, of course, fantastic implications
Perhaps this is how evolution, in conjunction with natural selection, is actually directed.
It may explain the "power of prayer."
It may explain how animal instinct and group behavior works. (ESP in humans may be a dormant form of instinct that we can sometimes tune in to.)
That we do, even in some small degree, create our own reality. Our destiny is literally in our own minds.
Our minds, under certain circumstances, could create the effects attributed to poltergeists, ghosts, and a host of other so-called paranormal phenomena.
That love is stronger than evil.
That we are, in scientific fact, one with the universe.
Of course, all those mystics, yogi masters, religious nuts, paranormal junkies, and New Age thinkers have known all this is true for quite some time. It's just that now science is proving it. And once this truth is widely known and accepted by human beings, then we will have a powerful tool with which to change our world. This is just the beginning. -
Dear Jonny,
I am not superstitious but I believe that human emotions are beyond merely Quantum particles and are so fine and subtle that only God can truly define their nature. If someday in future Scientists do figure out how these emotions work then the concept of God and even Quran will become worthless. They will come to know the future by simply calculating the future behaviour of Quantum particles with super Quantum computers so they will even be able to predict future events that way. They will know which dream you will see tonight and which day and time you will die. Quantum particles will be patternised by super Quantum computers thus making humans as virtual gods. If you could predict the behaviour of particles then you can patternise events because afterall universe is a bunch of Quantum particles. Science will be over after this and humans will become gods because they will have knowledge to make themselves happy at will and do whatever they want without any obstacles. They will say be and it would be accomplished. Scientists that believe this to be true are known as reductionists according to whom our universe is just a big quantum soup.
I believe that Quantum theory is inaccurate and not precise. Just imagine how can there be a smallest particle, would not that have a skin as well or would it be invincible? This is a famous topic of debate going on among the scientists of modern physics and first began with Einstein vs Bohr debates. Planck's constant of today is the physical limit of today's instruments and devices but it is in fact not the limit of the smallest reality of universe. Today's modern phsics has come to a halt due to incompatablity between relativity and Quantum mechanics. Reativity is well established and easily verifiable but Quantum mechanics is according to some physicists has created a dillema for modern physics. Read it below.
Einstein, Bohr and the Quantum Dilemma at
www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521671026&ss=exc
I do not believe that everything sums up to Quantum particles so these are just theories of overoptimistic athiest minded scientists who dream that one day humans would themeselves do what people claim about God. Anyways world is might be over in 21st century as global warming is speeding up and all human life might become extinct. Even if global warming is dealt with oil supplies are going to dry up leading to stone age because alternative sources of energy use more energy than they give and are very uneconomical, unstable and undeveloped. Etahnol production uses more agricultural land dependent on fertilizers dependent on oil powered factories leading to higher food prices( either eat or have electricity), nuclear energy is dependent on uranium which has already been used in making nukes and it is very scarce and little is left, solar panels use more energy in manufacturing and repairing than they give out in their life time, wind energy is dependent on wind so stone age no modern life because wind speed varies a lot and little energy is provided by a large no. of wind mills. There is no current level of technology that could coverup modern life without oil. American middle east wars are a part of this story and the US military is seriously worried over this problem. The US governement sponsored a report about peak oil wich they say will come in the decade or so and oil begin to decline from the wells on average all around the world. The US might attack Iran as well to sieze its oil fields.
Scientists have to meet far greater challenges in 21st century than figuring out about human emotions. They should work on Nuclear fusion technology or any other technology which could replace oil so that our world continues towards progress.US government report about Peak oil (When World's Oil production will reach a peak and then begins to decline) is below.
http//www.hilltoplancers.org/stories/hirsch0502.pdf
I think for the world to survive in the 21st century a lot of miraculous inventions are needed that would extend pax americana.
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Peace "abrar",
Regarding yur paranornmal claims and the reserach done to it, that is entire nonsense as it has never been proven. James Rnadi has offered a 1 Million USD prize to anyone who can show paranormal activities of any kind under controlled conditions. Please visit www.randi.org . Stanford University showed in the 70s that Uri Geller had paranormal activities but it was shown to be wrong. Sometimes scientists dont know wht to look for so theyr fooled by magic. Hence James Randi as a previously skilled magician, together with the scientific community, has ever since exposed such phenomena and nobody so afr has even past his preliminary test in which the odds have to be relatively very less. GOD Bless! -
Peace "abrar",
Dear Jonny,
I am not superstitious but I believe that human emotions are beyond merely Quantum particles and are so fine and subtle that only God can truly define their nature. If someday in future Scientists do figure out how these emotions work then the concept of God and even Quran will become worthless.
JK- This is the most absurd statement ive ever heard and is the reason why so many consider faith irrational. As science progresses we will find out more and more. Everything is a system or network of particles, be it a soul, angels, jinn or whatver. GOD too is not a magical being or something nonsensible like that. Ultimately everything is causal. Yes i agree GOD had to be there all at once and the quantum particles all aound were always there, compressed or otherwise. Also GOD is never fully comprehensible as you correctly say since to grasp the infinite fully is impossible but one can always tend to understand GOD more and more. So you see that whilst not violating causality the belief in the existence of GOD is rational and also inevitable whilst by your claims, which are by definition superstitious though your in denial, the exitence of GOD is just a belief, one of many. GOD Bless!