verse 4:3 and polygamy
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Peace Ay
Not that fast. I mean dont translate that fast. Single in the verse will create deficient logic as I explained above.
...Marry off singles among you and righteous slaves...
It doesnt make sense. Single and slaves in the same verse in that sense.
There is AND/WA in front of al saliheena
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Peace Samia
Thanks for the additional information.
What is the source of your information. Is this a Arabic root or a Semitic root ?
There is a logical problem with the snake, If the snake is single for too long it would have gone extinct long time back.
What I meant to say is single and solitary are not same.
Single people may be not solitary but solitary people are single and solitary both.
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I tried to explain it like this before
2432 is the same as 629 in terms of wording. So if 2432 were not a prohibition of polygyny, neither would 629 be a prohibition of idolworship
Hasten to the remembrance of God (629)
Marry off the single (2432)In 629 God addresses the mosque-goer.
In 2432 He adreesses the registrar.In 629 the mosque-goer is ordered to remember God.
2432 the registrar is ordered to marry off the single.God forbids the mosque-goer to remember false gods such as al-Lat
because it is a wrong done to God. "God does not share His sovereignty." (1826).God forbids the registrar to marry off the married
because it is a wrong done to women (423). "God does not do the least wrong unto humans but it is humans who wrong themselves." (1044)What is unacceptable in my explanation?
Peace,
Hasan AkcayAs-Salaamu Alaikum forum
This is my first post, and Allah willing I will make more as I can. I have been following this topic between yesterday and today, and while there are many issues that I would like to add my comments to, I will start here since it is closest to the last post. I pray that whatever I add helps in some small way, Allah willing.
There seems to be a consensus of some here that Allah may be forbidding polygyny by the ayat 2432 and saying "marry (0ff) the single among you...". I will not deal with whether it is marry or marry off right now, but one thing that I think will help is discussing the term "ayaamaa" and it's meaning. Obviously if someone believes that it means single as it is commonly translated, then they would stick to the opinion of how can you practice polygyny if you are told to only marry or marry off those who are "single", which to us as speakers of english means anyone that is without a husband or wife.
It has also been pointed out that to some it doesn't make sense that "singles" and "slaves, i.e. 'ibaadikum" are mentioned in the same ayat for this purpose.
I believe this may be of some benefit, Allah willing
ayaamaa...from alif (l) ya(y) ma(m)...
Also, from lanes lexicon (I can't seem to copy and paste into here, is that forbidden? or how do you do it?)
"ayamaanu" a man whose wife has died and "aymaa" a woman whose husband has died pl. "ayaamaa" or of both
It should be clear from here, and makes much more since that Allah is telling us from this ayat to marry (off) the "widows, widowers" from among us (minkum). This is a special instruction to let us know the vunerable state, whether financially or emotinally or otherwise that these people may be in. It is perfectly in line with promoting the protection of those who are in need, and Allah knows best.
The only other word use for widow or widower that I am aware of from Quran is in 665 which is "thay-ya-baa-tin", which is usually translated as previously married, which doesn't necessarily mean widowed, of course it is taking about women being in the feminine form. This would not preclude "ayaamaa" from meaning widowed men and women as is given in the dictionary and lexicon, and not just "single" which would include a lot more.
But even "thay-ya-baa-tin" in 665, since that is the only ayat that it is used in, may not mean previously married. It seems to be given that meaning to contrast "abkaaraan", i.e. virgins. But it is followed by "wa" which could indicated that it is a further description of "abkaaraan", virgins; rather than being it's opposite. Most of the time that I have found, when Allah is telling us something or another, the term "aw" for "or" is used and not "wa" which can mean "and, by, by an oath, plus, etc."
As Salaamu Alaikum
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As Salaamu alaikum again forum,
I think posting these ayat and some reference materials may be of use to us in trying to understand them properly, Allah willing. I will elaborate a little below the posting of the ayah
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41Transliteration Ya ayyuha alnnasu ittaqoo rabbakumu allathee khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatin wakhalaqa minha zawjaha wabaththa minhuma rijalan katheeran wanisaan waittaqoo Allaha allathee tasaaloona bihi waal-arhama inna Allaha kana AAalaykum raqeeban
Literal You, you the people, fear and obey your Lord who created you from one self and He created from it its spouse, and He scattered/distributed from them (B) many men and women, and fear and obey God who you ask each other/make oath to each other with Him, and the wombs/uteruses, that God was/is on you observing .
Free-Minds O people, be aware of your Lord who has created you from one soul and He created from it its mate and sent forth from it many men and women; and be aware of God whom you ask about, and the relatives. God is watcher over you.
Yusuf Ali O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you) for Allah ever watches over you.
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42Transliteration Waatoo alyatama amwalahum wala tatabaddaloo alkhabeetha bialttayyibi wala ta/kuloo amwalahum ila amwalikum innahu kana hooban kabeeran
Literal And give the orphans their properties , and do not exchange/replace/substitute the bad/spoiled with the good/beautiful , and do not eat their properties to your properties , that it was a great/large sin/crime .
Free-Minds And give the orphans their money, and do not replace the good with the bad, and do not consume their money to your money; for truly it is a great sin!
Yusuf Ali To orphans restore their property (When they reach their age), nor substitute (your) worthless things for (their) good ones; and devour not their substance (by mixing it up) with your won. For this is indeed a great sin.
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43Transliteration Wa-in khiftum alla tuqsitoo fee alyatama fainkihoo ma taba lakum mina alnnisa-i mathna wathulatha warubaAAa fa-in khiftum alla taAAdiloo fawahidatan aw ma malakat aymanukum thalika adna alla taAAooloo
Literal And if you feared that you not be just/equitable in the orphans , so marry what (was) allowed/permitted for you from the women two twos/twos, and threes, and fours, so if you feared that you not be just/equitable, so (marry) one or what your rights owned/possessed, that (is) nearer that you not side away from justice .
Free-Minds And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then marry those whom you see fit from their mothers, two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or whom you are already betrothed to. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.
Yusuf Ali If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
I think if we can understand the first ayat from the universal principal of marriage, meaning that Allah stated that He created us all from one soul and from it it's mate, thus making a marriage, we can see that marriage is a topic that this Surah begins with. I will touch on a few things so as not to get to varied in the issues trying to be understood by us all here.
The second ayat clearly is giving us instructions about how to deal with orphans property, money, etc. It specifically tells us not to mix it up with our own, a key I believe to what follows.
The third ayat, the one most in question and the root of the issue, begans by instructing us that if "And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans". This statement, which qualifies the ones following it, seems to be referring us back to the previous ayat and the instructions given therein. If we fear what? I would suggest that if we fear that we may disobey Allah by not properly restoring to the orphan their property, money, etc. once they reach adulthood, and instead we mix theirs with our own. But how would we do that? One way would be by marrying them and therefore combining their wealth with whatever we may have at the time.
The third ayat continues after this warning about if we fear that we cant be just, then in the command form, Allah tells us to marry (off)"fainkihoo", which ever you prefer at this point, "maa Taaba lakum", (maa) what..(Taaba) from T' Y B meaning to seem good, to fare well, (lakum) to you all; "mina alnnisa-i" from the women. Before continuing, it is important here that Allah distinguishes which group He is referring to when giving this instruction, it is from among the "women". Meaning if you use some rational and connecting to the previous ayat, that this is saying marry from among those that were orphans and have now become women; making it an instruction to the men in particular.
Now continuing "mathna wathulatha warubaAAa" this is being translated as "two, or three, or four" or as discussed here sometimes as "twos, threes and fours" and also as "by twos, by threes and by fours". One thing that is clear though is that it is not saying two(s) "or" three(s) "or" four(s). The reason that this can clearly be understood is the further on in the exact same ayat, Allah uses the word "wa" for "or" when making a comparision to "only one" or as is commonly translated "what your right hands possess".
Many will also tell you that when dealing with numbers in classical arabic, "wa" can also mean plus. So that possibility that the understanding could be "two(s) plus three(s) plus four(s)" can not yet be excluded until a better understanding of the complete ayat is understood.
If this ayat is about marrying (off), then clearly it is promoting the marrying (off) of the women two(s) "wa" three(s) "wa" four(s), over that of "so (marry) one or what your rights owned/possessed"; as "so if you feared that you not be just/equitable," is a "conditional requirement" and not the primary command.
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Peace Ay
Not that fast. I mean dont translate that fast. Single in the verse will create deficient logic as I explained above.
...Marry off singles among you and righteous slaves...
It doesnt make sense. Single and slaves in the same verse in that sense.
There is AND/WA in front of al saliheena
peace warner - i agree - thats why i asked this in my post also
"ie. marry off your single slaves? (but why is there an "and" between single and slaves?)"It does not make sense to me either!
But i do not think polygany is prohibited - im just trying to figure out what the quran actually says about it all and it is very confusing!I tried to explain it like this before
2432 is the same as 629 in terms of wording. So if 2432 were not a prohibition of polygyny, neither would 629 be a prohibition of idolworship
Hasten to the remembrance of God (629)
Marry off the single (2432)In 629 God addresses the mosque-goer.
In 2432 He adreesses the registrar.In 629 the mosque-goer is ordered to remember God.
2432 the registrar is ordered to marry off the single.God forbids the mosque-goer to remember false gods such as al-Lat
because it is a wrong done to God. "God does not share His sovereignty." (1826).God forbids the registrar to marry off the married
because it is a wrong done to women (423). "God does not do the least wrong unto humans but it is humans who wrong themselves." (1044)What is unacceptable in my explanation?
Peace,
Hasan Akcaypeace bro hasan,
i do not see your connection between 629 and 2432 at all.... it is not the same wording nor related in any way as far as i can tell...
Hasten in the remembrance of God is not necessarily a prohibitition of idolworship.... there are verses which do explicitly that....things that are prohibited are stated more clearly to avoid ambiguity - eg. prohibition of idolworship
986 Those who rejected from the people of the Scripture and those who set up partners are in the fires of Hell abiding therein, those are the worst of creation.
448 God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives what is beside that for whom He wills. Whoever sets-up partners with God has indeed invented a great sin.ayaamaa...from alif (l) ya(y) ma(m)...
Also, from lanes lexicon (I can't seem to copy and paste into here, is that forbidden? or how do you do it?)
"ayamaanu" a man whose wife has died and "aymaa" a woman whose husband has died pl. "ayaamaa" or of both
It should be clear from here, and makes much more since that Allah is telling us from this ayat to marry (off) the "widows, widowers" from among us (minkum). This is a special instruction to let us know the vunerable state, whether financially or emotinally or otherwise that these people may be in. It is perfectly in line with promoting the protection of those who are in need, and Allah knows best.
peace and welcome to the forum imam,
The meaning of the root AYM according to lanes is not only widowers - it can be said of a woman or man who has no husband or wife (virgin or not)
(or same root gives the meaning of a free woman, or female relation, or a competant/wealthy woman with no husband)peace ay
4-24 is not about prohibiting polyandy.
Warner
Have you come across any verse which prohibits polyandy?
siki
peace siki,
how is 424 not forbidding polyandry when it states forbidden to you are women already married....
so u cant marry an already married woman - but where does it say anything to women about marrying(or not) an already married man?and the prohibition of polyandry makes alot of sense to me.... and if i understand polygany in light of islam and its message of social justice then it makes sense to allow men to marry widows with children (if that is indeed what it is saying?!!?) taking into consideration the historical context of the verses also (lots of wars, many men dying, many orphan children etc)
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peace and welcome to the forum imam,
The meaning of the root AYM according to lanes is not only widowers - it can be said of a woman or man who has no husband or wife (virgin or not)
(or same root gives the meaning of a free woman, or female relation, or a competant/wealthy woman with no husband)As Salaamu Alaikum ay,
Thank you for the response and the welcoming, and I had read those definitions also. What I am pointing out is the "form" of the verb used, as well as all possible meanings from that "form" not just it's root.
If you look at the form used, you will see that "ayaamaa" can only mean (a)the plural for a woman or man whose spouse has died, (b) "uy-yematun" being a man having no wife, whether he married before or not; or who has not married....the plural being "ayaamaa" as a later addition with the orginal plural having actually been "ayaa'imu" ...or (c) a free woman with "ayaamaa" being the plural form, with also meaning a female relative such as the sister and the daughter and the maternal aunt. to sum it up a bit.
Now if "a" is accepted, the issue is closed and the ayat only refers to those that are widowed, which makes a lot of sense if you ask me, but I will leave it open for discussion in my own mind as well.
If "b" is wanting of being accepted, then we should look at it as a latter addition since it is clearly stated there that it was not the original form of the plural for this catergory. So, there is no reason to assume that this is what is meant by Allah in the Quran, but that more than likely someone tried to force this meaning in during later times to suit their own desires.
If "c" is accepted, then it is being used as a feminine form only and thus can not include males, which would thus not make polygyny banned, but would make polyandry banned.
It would not be reasonable to say that all three meanings are included because they would contradict each other by their very nature, and the author of the verse, Allah would not cause us confusion.
But my main point is that if you read the entire entry for this root of AYM, it is almost all about those who have been widowed. Since lane is not an original source, it would be only natural to contemplate on the origin of this word and see that it clearly is dealing with those that have been widowed, in my humble opinion.
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Peace Ay
Quote Ay peace warner - i agree - thats why i asked this in my post also
"ie. marry off your single slaves? (but why is there an "and" between single and slaves?)"Sorry Ay, I misunderstood what you said. Actually here we are saying the same thing.
Quraan does not have imbalanced sentences with a big hole as this one.My question to someone who says al ayaama means single is,
?Is it alright to marry off non single (married) slaves ???
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Quote AY how is 424 not forbidding polyandry when it states forbidden to you are women already married....
so u cant marry an already married woman - but where does it say anything to women about marrying(or not) an already married man?
and the prohibition of polyandry makes alot of sense to me.... and if i understand polygany in light of islam and its message of social justice then it makes sense to allow men to marry widows with children (if that is indeed what it is saying?!!?) taking into consideration the historical context of the verses also (lots of wars, many men dying, many orphan children etc)
Peace Siki and Ay
I believe it is obvious in 424 Mohsanat al Nisa are married women among the believers and among the women from the people of the book. What can make all women protected/committed or immune in the broadest sense?
Thus 424 automatically bans polyandry on the reverse application of that law.
In 425 Mohsanat al Muminat should be believing women who are not Fatayat or Ma Malakat Ayman and have not been convicted of zina. Also if a woman is known to be unchaste she can not be Mohsanat.
Mohsanati should be chaste women among the believers and among the women from the people of the book and (possibly married from Ma Malaktat Ayman)
Kindly add your thoughts if I have missed anything
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peace warner Ay
I had asked earlier, what is the arbaic/quran uses for married women?
Do we have any example from quran where "Mohsinnat" is used for married women?
We have to have one consistent meaning for Mohsinnat, if God meant to ban married women , it should have been clearly indicated as , "and the already married Mohsinnats".
siki
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Dear warner Ay and Imam
let me start be clearly stating , that 4-24 could be any thing but , "prohibiting another marriage of married women"(polyandry).
But what is puzzling is there is been No verse clearly prohibiting polyandry", where as it is a fact , and makes perfect sense for polyandry to be prohibited/ banned.
Brother imam's theory "C" for Ayyaama" , if correct could be the verse prohibiting polyandry.
peace
siki
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Peace all,
"Mohsanat" means "protected" and specifically "self-protected" or "independent" because it is used in CONTRAST with "fatayat" in 425. "Fatayat" means "young females", and because we have to obtain permission from their parents/guardians, "fatayat" are "parent/guardian dependent" and thus "mohsanat" would be "self-protected/independent", considering that al-qur'aan is its own dictionary !
"Mohsanat" or "self-protected/independent" include the following 3 types
- Self-protected single (includes never married, divorced, widowed)
- Self-protected married
- Self-protected engaged (ma malakat aymanukum as per 424)
In 424, "ma malakat aymanukum" is a subset of "mohsanat" because of the word "illa"/except used after "mohsanat". Thus the "ma malakat aymanukum" mentioned in 424 are also "mohsanat", but those "mohsanat" that are engaged. The meaning of 424, therefore, is that we are forbidden to get romantically involved with "mohsanat" except after getting engaged to them, and thus the only way to get romantically involved with "mohsanat" is to get engaged with them, and then marry them.
In 425, if we are unable to marry the self-protected/independent/"mohsanat" (after getting engaged to them per 424), then we are advised to marry the parent/guardian dependent young females/"fatayat" after getting engaged to them.
"Mohsanat" CANNOT MEAN CHASTE per usage in al-qur'aan because then that definition would make "fatayat" UNCHASTE in 425, because "fatayat" is used in contrast with "mohsanat" in that verse. It can only mean "protected" and specifically "self-protected/independent" as explained above.
As sister Samia has said, we cannot ignore the "wa" at the beginning of 424, which connects 424 with 423 and makes it a continuation of the forbidden categories. Thus "mohsanat" are forbidden except those with whom we have made an oath to get married.
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Salaam Tanweer
Do you mean that "fatayaat" are minors? If yes, Does quraan encourages the marriage with minos?
If no, i.e if they are adults, then they are self protected as per Islam.
I do not understand what is this "guardian". Why should girls have "guardians", but not boys? And what is the "guadian" supposed to do, or can do, to protect some adult, other than for financial matters? And even here, this kind of protection is not specific to "females", but to the needy, irrespective of their gender.
I hope you get rid of these understandings that reflect traditions and/or the so called islamic laws..
"Ask permission of their family" is not because they are not self protected, but because this knd of liaison (milkul yameen) between someone who can't/wont have sex (MMA) needs that the woman/man consult more than themselevs, and that their families are aware of their choice.
Also, "mu7san" is not self protected. It is the participle of the verb "a7sana", not "hassana" which means to protect.
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Peace Siki
Do not concentrate only on the word MohSanat , please study the term and the context and various forms as well.
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If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess and Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another wed them with the leave of their people and give them their dowers according to what is reasonable they should be chaste not lustful nor taking secret lovers so if they married if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for mohsanat women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint and Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.
Wa mal lam yastati' minkum taulan ay yankihal muhsana_til mu'mina_ti famimma_ malakat aima_nukum min fataya_tikumul mu'mina_t(i), walla_ a'lamu bi ima_nikum, ba'dukum mim ba'd(in), fankihu_hunna bi izni ahlihinna wa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna bil ma'ru_fi muhsana_tin gaira musa_fiha_tiw wa la_ muttakhiza_ti akhda_n(in), fa iza_ uhsinna fa in ataina bi fa_hisyatin fa 'alaihinna nisfu ma_ 'alal muhsana_ti minal 'aza_b(i), za_lika liman khasyiyal'anata minkum, wa anbiru_ khairul lakum, walla_hu gafu_rur rahim(un).
The bold part ?fa iza_ uhsinna? means ?so if they married? or ?so when they married?. The word ?uhsinna? meaning ?marriage? here is from the root Ha-Sad-Nun same as Mohsanat . The rest of the verse clarifies this more clearly.
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Salaam warner
You say
so if they married if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for mohsanat women.
, and I rephrase "so if they are married.....their punishment is half that for married women"Right?
If yes,
can you see any problem?
Also, would you please tell me what that punishment is?
And what would have been their punishment if they had not married? -
Peace Samia
The punishment is 50 lashes, half of what is commanded in 242.
Why? I mean why is this "sale" ?
My other question what would be the punishment if they were not married?
As for my understanding, it is in more than a thread (probably in this one, too), and you were part of the participants. Do you want me to undrstand that you were not reading other points of view?
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Dear warner
I think we(you, me, and samia etc) are probably way ahead of the past translators on the subject, so i don't expect you to just blindly quote translation of somebody and then build your case upon, how do you think that Ahsinna means marriage?
i say it once again , that a Fatayat of believing MMA does not become a MOhsinna because she is married, but is a MOhsinna now because she is kinda semi upgraded, she was a MMA who could be , or was being used as a sex slave with no compensation(ujoors),and with no inheritance for children ,(if any) to a level where she enters into a better contract with security.
peace
siki