verse 4:3 and polygamy
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Peace Siki, All
If there is no upper limit how can there be replacement ?
warner !
Good question,,,,B.A
See sister , this is exactly what i meant by those "should bees" ," in my opinion", "closer to reality","available data till date ",etcTanveer
Brother! looks like, it needs more work, so lets do it.peace
siki -
To Siki
You made the statement B.A., See sister , this is exactly what i meant by those "should bees" ," in my opinion", "closer to reality","available data till date ",etc.
I do not understand what point you are making, please explain.
TheBookAlone
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Peace Siki
I was referring to exchange/replace in 420 and 3352.
These two verses, when read together, prove that in God's religion a believing man is forbidden from taking wife upon wife; which actully means that it is polygamy which is forbidden because there can be no polygamy unless a man is allowed to take wife upon wife.
"If you desire to give up a wife and to take another woman in her place...." (420)
Here the believer is allowed to take another woman as wife, on condition that he divorces his present wife. So the man is single. His taking a woman as wife now is actully a single man's marriage.
On the other hand, the Prophet is forbidden from replacig any one of his wives by another woman from outside his family; for it would actually be taking wife upon wife since he is a polygamous man.
Another mistake I notice is brother Tanveer's claim that nikah always means marry. No. It means sexual intercourse in 243 and 2460.
From Muhammad Asad's footnote on NKH in 2460
Although nikah is almost always used in the Qur'an in the sense of "marriage" or "marrying", there are undoubtedly exceptions from this general rule for instance, the manner in which the verbal form yankihu is used in verse 3 of this s?rah. These exceptions confirm the view held by some philologists of great renown, e.g., Al-Jawhar? or Al-Azhar?, to the effect that "in the speech of the Arabs the original meaning of nikah is sexual intercourse (al-vat)".
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
To Siki
You made the statement B.A., See sister , this is exactly what i meant by those "should bees" ," in my opinion", "closer to reality","available data till date ",etc.
I do not understand what point you are making, please explain.
TheBookAlone
Quran is an amazing jigsaw puzzle, whenever one thinks that he has reached a conclusion regarding some issue from it, the book confronts you with something new.That is why i have stopped being sure about my derived conclusions, and have started to use the above mentioned pharases, which leave room for an improved understanding.
I thought I had reached to some understanding regarding polygamy,but here i was confornted with a very relevent question by brother warner?
i hope you understand now
peacesiki
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My God! From all this, it seems to me that the Qur'an, which is supposed to be clear and without contradictions, is totally UNCLEAR and open to all kinds of interpretations! So how in the world are we supposed to know what God meant and what the right thing is?
Just a comment. Sorry. But this is frustrating and confusing!
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Salaam Zehra
My God! From all this, it seems to me that the Qur'an, which is supposed to be clear and without contradictions, is totally UNCLEAR and open to all kinds of interpretations! So how in the world are we supposed to know what God meant and what the right thing is?
Just a comment. Sorry. But this is frustrating and confusing!
Blame it on our ancestors who could have made it much easier for us if they had allowed open discussions of the quraan when they were still familiar with its language, and not hanged their swords over the heads of thinkers. We are starting from the "invention of the wheel", and May God help us.
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Peace be with you, Zehra
The Quran is clear and it is not open to all kind of interpretations. When we find the right interpretation there will be no contradictions. It is we who are confused and in turn it is we who confuse the Quraan. The main reason for this is we come to the Quraan with lot of mental baggage and loaded with useless information. Our beliefs, assumptions and our preferences cloud our minds and keep us away from understanding the Quraan.
Since you seem to be confused or frustrated and there can be others like you (most of us have come through this, I guess) I like to share one experience with you. Till recent, I used to believe Qibla meant direction of Salat and that direction is towards Mecca. Then I thought it might be Jerusalem though I never faced Jeruslaem. Discussing and arguing much in this board to uphold what I used to believe and also bringing evidences from the Quraan and the Bible in support of qibla, direction of prayer recently I wanted to study this issue on my own possibly thanks to Ayman. (Ayman has his own view on qibla/ focal point which I do not agree and that is beyond my little writing here). But when I read the Quraan to find out about the Qibla (possibly with lot of determination and a clear mind) I realized there is no direction of salat (qibla) mentioned in the Quraan at all; No single verse supporting this. I even realized the verses against such a qibla used to look like verses in support of it. All depends on how strong our conviction and how deep our minds are set on different beliefs and whether we are prepared to shed all those to understand Gods message. Also how we are going to break down all these idols and read and understand the Quraan and its clear message. This site is only 4 years. We just started; maybe in another few years (who know, maybe months) if Allah wills we will sort most issues; clear without contradiction.
So do not give up, keep learning.
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Peace Samia
Is this word available in the Quran?
Neither of them is mentioned in the quraan.
Only the singular, dual and plural of the masculine form are mentioned yateem; yateemayn and yataama (the latter is the plural for the masculine or a group of mixed gender). -
Peace Samia
So can we say yata_man nisa (4127) is female orphans
Although ?yataama? can be mixed gender can we take it to mean male or female according to context as in 43?
I believe 4127 is a later clarification of 43-5 explaining it is the marriage to female orphans which is being addressed in first part of 43 .
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To Zehra
I agree with Warner.
In the beginning of my studies, I too, felt frustrated at times?but I continuously sought God?s assistance.
How do we get assistance from God? We should seek assistance by being patient and committed. (2153)
The ?Law of Guidance? is such that if you wish to be guided, you will be (See 2213; 2272; 1025; 1327 and many other places). God establishes Truth to be the truth with His Words (87 & 1082), not with various human interpretations, which is subject to error.
How are we to know what God meant and what?s the right thing? God says that this Book has clear interpretations (2533) and there is no change in His Words (1064). God is very specific when He uses words and there is no ambiguity in them whatsoever.
God says that guidance will come to us from Him and whoever follows His guidance, no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve (23. Put your TRUST in God and approach this Book with the sincere intention to be guided aright and in time the Law of Guidance will allow you to know what God means and what the right thing to do is.
I hope this helps.
TheBookAlone
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To Brook
Is it your understanding that the believing men are instructed to be monogamous and the prophet is allowed to be polygamous? If so, could you please provide the references to support your understanding from the Book?
TheBookAlone
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To Siki
Thank you for your response. However, what I understand is that you did not answer two of my questions.
Question 1 just so that we are both on the same page...what do you mean when you say "closer to reality"?
Question 2 could you please provide the references to the available data that you examined which caused you "to think..."
Am I to understand that the reason you use the phrases, ?in my opinion?, ?I think?, ?should be? etc. because it affords you the opportunity to leave room for an ?improved understanding??
You say ?Quran is an amazing jigsaw puzzle??This Book is a ?living book? for all times which facilitates our understanding of it by its cohesiveness through repetition. Would you agree? If so, then we are on the same page on that point.
Up to this point, in a nutshell, what is your understanding regarding polygamy and please explain what about Warner?s question caused you to ?re-think? your understanding on this issue?
TheBookAlone
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Salaam warner
Peace Samia
So can we say yata_man nisa (4127) is female orphans
Although yataama can be mixed gender can we take it to mean male or female according to context as in 43?
I believe 4127 is a later clarification of 43-5 explaining it is the marriage to female orphans which is being addressed in first part of 43 .
We can take it to mean male or mixed gender, but not feminine. Even in the colloquial, feminine adjectives are respected. I do not think yatamalnisaa' could be orphaned women.
Do any of you know any verse where such construction is used? i.e an adjective that preceeds the noun. Grammatically it is not wrong, though.
What's orphaned women any way? Can you call an adult (orphan)?
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To Warner
You asked me in a previous post regarding my understanding about 4127 as it relates to 43 and I responded. I brought to the attention of this forum that 43 has nothing to do with marriage.
However, you are saying to sister Samia that you believe 4127 is a later clarification of 43-5 explaining it is the marriage to female orphans which is being addressed in first part of 43.
Is it your understanding that 43-5 is speaking about a marriage which allows intimacy and not about guardianship?
TheBookAlone
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Peace Sister
Yes I believe the verses are dealing with marriage.
But marriage to orphans and also to women other than orphans, orphans properties and duty of the guardians is also covered in 43-6.Nikah is marriage, if you go for the easiest available English word. So maybe its not the same way we look at it today. Even if we leave the fact it?s a such a common Arabic word any other meaning will contradict so many verses The ?contract to uphold as guardian? will not make sense in many verses . To point a few ?marry not women your fathers married?422 ?, ?divorce verses 2230-1, 3349 ?. Also that will leave the whole Quran without any verse for marriage.
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Peace Samia
yata_man nisa
I honestly thought it's grammatically wrong.My explanation is unmarried young woman who does not have parents. I like to say Female orphans. When a female orphan is not a child anymore but in marriageable age, since we are dealing with marriage.
Can you comment on what you think on 4127 and its relationship (rather clarification of) 43-5?