The Existence of God

good_logic

If you seek GOD, there will be a trial period of your conviction.
Then GOD will let you know through the message and His guidance.
You will attain certainty that GOD exist .
This is GOD s promise .
there is no proof for those that do not seek or want GOD.
Proof is for believers .
GOD bless you all.
Peace

good_logic

It is a big moment when one knows for certain that GOD exist. You want to know who GOD is and this is mind blowing and difficult to understand. Some of GOD s attributes are way above what we can perceive or imagine.
Then one should become GOD conscious, and we will need to change our attitude in life and ways
Our life will need to go beyond just accepting and saying that GOD exist

Proving the existence of GOD has consequences and is a big responsibility for the following reasons( GOD exist means)
1- The only GOD,Authority and power.
2-Surrender to His system and follow His message.
3-Do not take any other gods/power/authority.
4- Follow the straight path/do good/be good/love GOD with your mind ,heart and soul and love your neighbour...etc
5- have GOD on your mind 24/7 to help offset the desires/lust...etc i.e a deterrent to bad things/doing bad...
6-start on a journey to get to know and learn the message and start on a sincere and honest relationship with the Lord.

There is nowhere for us to hide or run to except back to GOD,then we will meet GOD after this life.
In other words once we know GOD exist,we have no choice. The only reasonable and best choice is to surrender fully to GOD Alone.

Any other way (like just acknowledging/saying but ignoring the message) will be covering the truth and sidelining the duty /purpose of our life.
If we just accept there is a GOD but ignore His message,this is lip service belief . Iblees believes GOD exist as well.

If we know/ believe GOD exist we have got to believe GOD as well.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

jkhan

If you seek GOD, there will be a trial period of your conviction.
Then GOD will let you know through the message and His guidance.
You will attain certainty that GOD exist .
This is GOD s promise .
there is no proof for those that do not seek or want GOD.
Proof is for believers .
GOD bless you all.
Peace

Peace..

I appreciate that you believe in God and so probably God has guided you and me... let's pray till last breath to guide us... But it is different story to many millions of people... Why they should seek God? Is it not manifest that God exist or has HE hidden it to seek Him? Coz many in this earth are doing fine without accepting God.. And while denying His existence... I don't see much difference between a good God believer and a good non God believer...

But God keep saying in His book that He will show His signs until they know.. Are you saying that disbelievers won't know the existence of God but only believers..

Anoushirvan

Peace,

I'm not member of Mensa and I might not have the high IQ of Mr. Brady Lenardos, but there are a couple of flaws in his argument.

Basically he argues for a finite universe, in space and most importantly in time, so this universe could not have always existed ; and from that finite universe, he infers that some transcendent entity must have brought this finite universe into existence.

The main flaw lies in the crux of his argument for a finite universe is here, though there are other fallacies

To summarize If all past events could be traversed, then the past is
not infinite. If the past is infinite then all past events could not be
traversed to get us to the present event. Since the latter is patently
false (we are at the current event), and the former denies the main
premise of the infinite universe, which makes the proposition false, we
can conclude that the two options that maintain an infinite series of
past events are both false.

He argues for a finite universe in time (and also in space), because, and this is the essence of his argument, if we count the past events backward, either their number is finite, and here is the point, or, their number is infinite but then when we try to count them forward from the infinite, we are not able to reach our present, which kills this possibility.

So his argument implies two counts, one of all events backward in the past, and one of all events forward from the past.

An implicit mathematical hypothesis lurking behind is that the set of physical events in our universe is countable, see https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countable_set.
Roughly, a countable set in mathematical sense means that this set can be put in bijection one to one with the set of natural numbers, or finite subset of it.

For example, the set of natural numbers itself is countable (by definition), and so is the set of even numbers, or the set of odd numbers.
But the set of real numbers is not countable, because it cannot be put in bijection one to one to the set of natural number.

Then, it is a reasonable to assume that the set of physical events of our universe is mathematically countable, nevertheless this is still an hypothesis.

So he wants to enumerate all the physical events backward in the past, and forward from the past. Then he argues that this enumeration procedure is impossible if the set of physical events is infinite.
He doesn't provide a rational for this impossibility but likely his argument relies on the fact that counting an item takes a constant amount of time, hence the sum of the time spent on counting all events diverges.

We could argue that the enumerating procedure might not need to take the same amount of time for every event, hence like we can have a infinite sum that converges, the enumerating procedure could take a finite amount of time even for an infinite number of physical events. This is the analog of one the Zeno paradoxes called Achille and the tortoise (see https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes#Achilles_and_the_tortoise)

But let's assume, like he is implicitly doing, that counting one physical event takes a finite constant amount of time.

The problem is that, while events happening and flowing is a physical process because we live in this reality, enumerating them, either backward or forward in time is not a physical process.
And here, I do not even speak of technological issues.

Let's put aside some theoretical issues related to CPT symmetry and time reversal (see https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPT_symmetry), which could imply that going backward in time is not the same as going forward, hence the universe might have a different face depending time is flowing onward or backward.

By requiring that enumerating event backward and forward be still theoretically possible
(1) either this process has to be made physically possible, or
(2) Mr. Lenardos reasons in a different universe and reality than the one we live in.

As for (1), in order to make the backward counting physically possible, the trace of every event must be recorded somewhere, like in a big RAM or a big hard drive.

The first difficulty is that if the universe is infinite, then an infinite amount of resources is needed to record the trace of each event.
A second difficulty is that the physical laws of the universe that we know today, namely the Einstein Relativity, forbid to record an event that lies outside the cone of future of the recorder.

So, not only past events that have not been recorded cannot be recorded anymore, but also those that are too far for their light to reach the recorder.
In addition, events happening inside a black hole cannot be recorded since their light cannot cross out of black hole horizon of events.

Also, in order for events to be recorded and enumerated, they must be discernible. But quantum mechanics challenges our conception of reality that events can discernible.
In some conditions, two identical particles cannot be discerned by any measure process.
Even worse, things could be indiscernible in one world but discernible in another (https//www.worldscientific.com/doi/10.1142/9789813146280_0011)

And since according to quantum mechanics, in order to know something, we must measure this thing first, and this modifies the physical reality, it means that physically recording each event is a process that potentially affects the whole universe.
It is then not clear how this universe would be the same as one we live in.

So likely, no physical process can be setup that allows to enumerate all physical events.

As for (2), if we assume that it is possible to enumerate events without a physical process, it means that some external entity to our universe is able to know every event happening inside.
But then, isn't this external entity able to enumerate everything in this universe a transcendent one, that we actually could call "God", the same as in the sequel on the reasoning of Mr. Lenardos ?

Likely yes.

As my math teacher told us when I was a student, in order to warn us against reasoning errors "if you include the conclusion in your hypotheses, then surely you will demonstrate the conclusion".

So basically, Mr Lenardos is subtlety embedding the conclusion of a transcendent god able to know count everything in this universe in the set of his hypotheses, and then surely he managed to reach to conclusion that this transcendent entity must exist.
There is just one caveat in his reasoning this transcendent god would not be able to enumerate an infinite amount of physical events in a finite amount of time, thus this universe must be finite in time, hence it must have been created by a transcendent entity.

If we discard approach (2) which implies the logical fallacy to include the desired conclusion (a transcendent god) in the hypotheses, then we are left with the conclusion that no physical process can count all physical events, either backward or forward.

So if it is not possible to define a process to say if the number of events in our universe is finite or infinite in time, there is not way to decide by such mean that the universe is finite backward in time or not.

QED.

good_logic

Peace jkhan.
You say,quote
"But God keep saying in His book that He will show His signs until they know.. Are you saying that disbelievers won't know the existence of God but only believers.."

I am saying "GOD exist" should affect the individual Which way?.
Iblees knew that GOD exists.
There is no difference between Iblees stand and those who do not believe GOD exist. and those who say they believe as lip service only.
Either it changes our whole way of life or deep down we do not really believe. Both sets that do not surrender/submit do not value GOD as He should be valued.

There is no point in us trying to prove GOD s existence, GOD has proved it to all those that submit.
There is no point in any individual just saying GOD exist.if they do not seek GOD Alone for a "connection"/guidance and follow His message.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

peace all,

I thought the original post was very good. If I were to choose a weakness I'd go with this bit

Another debater attempted to argue in this manner
"The article fails to carry out some crucial self-analysis on its conclusions.
Doing so would reveal that the conclusions reached within the article disprove
the entity the article claims to prove exists. The same reasoning by which the
article 'disproves' an always existent universe also apply to the entity the
article proposes."
What this debater is trying to say is that the same argument that is used to show
the universe is not always existent can be use to show the God is not always
existent. This debater would be correct given any type of God that existed
sequentially or was trapped within our dimension of time. In Christianity at
least, God is not a sequential being and two other options have been offered
concerning His existence. Christian theology has suggested that God is either
timeless (outside of a dimension of time) or exists on multiple dimensions of time.
God is not trapped in our one single dimension of created time. If either of these
options is the case, then the above objection fails. So, our friend has not shown
the existence of an always existent God to be impossible. He has shown that one type
of god would be impossible and type of god is not one that most religious philosophies
are interested in anyway.

I haven't pondered over it more though.

Anoushirvan,
I'm not sure I get your point but I have never got my head round infinity in the natural world, but I know it is present in the world of mathematics. I think the issue you raise about a countable set was mentioned in a video I watched
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSwJuOPG4FI&ab_channel=iERA and I believe a differentiation was made but I cant recall what exactly.

jkhan

Peace jkhan.
You say,quote
"But God keep saying in His book that He will show His signs until they know.. Are you saying that disbelievers won't know the existence of God but only believers.."

I am saying "GOD exist" should affect the individual Which way?.
Iblees knew that GOD exists.
There is no difference between Iblees stand and those who do not believe GOD exist. and those who say they believe as lip service only.
Either it changes our whole way of life or deep down we do not really believe. Both sets that do not surrender/submit do not value GOD as He should be valued.

There is no point in us trying to prove GOD s existence, GOD has proved it to all those that submit.
There is no point in any individual just saying GOD exist.if they do not seek GOD Alone for a "connection"/guidance and follow His message.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace GL...
I understand your point.. You are taking this topic from the point where you have already found the God.. But the one who originated this topic in different level... I do really applaud his effort but very unfortunate no one has given a good debate for us to read after all these years...

You raised a good point saying Iblees knew there is God, so did Adam ... But this topic is not from the angle of Quran or any religious point of view.. But self research... In my life experience knowing the God without any religious book at certain point time is key to sustain our faith to be in a convinced situation...

You must be having something that is away from Quran that makes your belief in God / existence of God more stronger... Share with us, if you don't mind that

hawk99

Peace all,

I arrived at the existence of God simply by deducing all created things have a creator.

peace

Jafar

This is a very interesting topic.. I think everyone who believe that God does exist should individually perceive why they accept God or is it just a belief? Are we really in a confirmed state of mind that God does exist or we perplex.. If not perplex then what makes you firm that He exists...

In order to know "God" and not merely believe..

You need to firmed up what is it that you're seeking, what does the word "God" means to you. And it actually better if you have no preconceived notion about it. Just honestly admit (to your own self, no need to announce it publicly or to others) that you don't know what is it that I'm seeking and I'm open to any possibility.
I can only advise you where to look for your seeking, as it will need to be a journey that you need to embark on yourself. The place to look for your seeking is within your own self. Ask the question within your own self to your own self, and be open to any answer or information that you will received within your own self as well. The answer will come... and it will be a wonderful journey.

Once you found the answer, you will then understand why there is no need to tell, convince or even forced other to believe or not believe in the existence of God.

And why sometimes it's relatively better to tell that there is no God to the theist and there is a God to the atheist.
Because both group believe (or not believe) in something that that they don't know what it is in the first place.
With such answer it's hopeful that they will start their own seeking, themselves..
Once they seek, they will find...

tutti_frutti

salam

it was logical to me that there is only One God.... we are here, so obviously we were created and there is only 1 creator ...

when i read the Quran for myself .. i realized it was the truth

peace

jkhan

Peace all,

I arrived at the existence of God simply by deducing all created things have a creator.

peace

Peace Hawk...

I am not against your view coz that's what triggered you to have strong faith in God... But we live in a practical world... Why do you call "all created things"? How you explain to a person that everything is created if in case he is against it... Will you be silent or would you say something to guard your statement ...

jkhan

In order to know "God" and not merely believe..

You need to firmed up what is it that you're seeking, what does the word "God" means to you. And it actually better if you have no preconceived notion about it. Just honestly admit (to your own self, no need to announce it publicly or to others) that you don't know what is it that I'm seeking and I'm open to any possibility.
I can only advise you where to look for your seeking, as it will need to be a journey that you need to embark on yourself. The place to look for your seeking is within your own self. Ask the question within your own self to your own self, and be open to any answer or information that you will received within your own self as well. The answer will come... and it will be a wonderful journey.

Once you found the answer, you will then understand why there is no need to tell, convince or even forced other to believe or not believe in the existence of God.

And why sometimes it's relatively better to tell that there is no God to the theist and there is a God to the atheist.
Because both group believe (or not believe) in something that that they don't know what it is in the first place.
With such answer it's hopeful that they will start their own seeking, themselves..
Once they seek, they will find...

Rather than complication better the simplicity... According the topic and the author he has tried to explain far away from Quran or any religious book... He simply tried to explain something exists/ed forever for another to exist... Call it God fine... Brother Jafer most in Earth approached religious books to find the God... No harm at all coz it is their choice... But when someone seriously asking such a person who accepted God in his life, "why you believe in God", then he must have an answer that really makes sense for himself and the one questioned.. isn't it? Otherwise for the one who questioned it may only seems non but mere belief... But if his answer propel him to ponder that what he believes in fact a probable fact then he may start to explore in it...

All who believes in God, do you want your belief to be just a belief within yourself without being able to answer simple questions of others.. That's why I really appreciate the attempt of the author of this topic.. He has challenged to debate but no one then tried a little for whatever the reason...

Further don't search God but search existence of things so that you may end up in God's existence..

jkhan

Peace Anoush...

Can you accept at least one of the living being is FINITE? If searching everything is difficult, why not try one single creature... For example human being... Is human being finite or infinite? Is that so difficult to know whether we are finite or infinite?

If you find out human is finite, is it not a clue for us that everything is finite? Doesn't every single creature / thing depend on another? Doesn't this dependency makes us to conclude finite?

good_logic

Peace jkhan.

Here is a brief summary of my journey
My parents have not forced their belief/religion on me or taught me theirs. I was familiar with churches and went there on odd Sundays and religious days like Christmas and Easter.
I wrestled with "GOD" as a student "GOD does not exist",, "GOD may exist", "which GOD of which religion", "why GOD", "free will"," predestination"...etc mainly in discussion with various friends of various backgrounds and religions. But nothing too serious and in hindsight without any deep knowledge of most religions or traditions .
My life took the expected turn of meeting a girl, getting married, getting a job and having our three children . There was no time for GOD or wrestling with the idea. My priorities were the "normal business" of life and its materials.

Then in 2009 while working away and traveling a lot by myself, my "wrestling with GOD" was triggered by the loneliness of the long journeys. I started to listen on the radio to debates/phone ins/talks about religion and Science. This started my curiosity to study further about history and religions.
In 2010 I started to look at Qoran. II suppose I am still on this journey. I
The contents of Qoran had a weird effect on me, like if I was a walking dead waking up from a coma reflected later on here by this post of mine

."It is funny how the majority are "walking dead". Not using any of their GOD given faculties to investigate/analyse/ponder their existence and beliefs!!!!!
Despite reading clearly verses like

God brought you out of your mothers' bellies knowing nothing, and He gave you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains, that you may be appreciative.
You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Many a generation before them, who were more powerful, we annihilated. They searched the land; did they find an escape?
This should be a lesson for everyone who possesses a mind, or is able to hear and witness.

GOD also says
Those are the ones whom God has sealed their hearts/thinking..., and their hearing, and their eyesight. Consequently, they remain unaware.

Qoran says once we become like deaf, dumb, and blind to the Truth. In that sense, we become like the "walking dead".

How true the words of GOD
Did they not roam the earth, then use their minds to understand, and use their ears to hear? Indeed, the real blindness is not the blindness of the eyes, but the blindness of the hearts inside the chests.
When you invite them to the guidance, they do not hear. And you see them looking at you, but they do not see."

I suppose this journey is still continuing.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

ade_cool

Salam,

A website from a brother who was atheist
http//www.answeringislamicskeptics.com/

http//www.answeringislamicskeptics.com/the-atheists-burden-of-proof.html

Wassalam,

jkhan